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Post by Skarr on Jun 13, 2022 21:50:20 GMT
Back to SS3 topic in general. I agree with whoever said the concept behind the stronger the user of SS3 is shorter the transformation idea was made to put limits on Vegetto. The SS3 problem only impacts Vegetto and Gotenks who are both so stupid strong it makes SS3 last in seconds. Goku and the others can at least use the form for longer periods of time. If we keep the same idea of limiting Vegetto and keeping his power the pinnacle of DB universe I would have preferred SS3 just makes Vegetto so powerful now that even his casual blasts have the potential of destroying the whole planet he is on. It becomes less about Vegetto cannot maintain the form because of his strength is too great, but rather that his strength is so great now that using his full power risks destroying everyone even when he is trying to hold back. This way SS3 drawbacks do not need to exaggerated more while we give a whole new reason to limit Vegetto and fusions in general from using it. I think something like that could work too. Goku shook up the whole planet when he first went SSJ3. It didn't happen again though so maybe that because it was his first time using the form in a living body. Vegetto did something like that with increasing gravity but it didn't happen after the first time. In Vegetto's case, this tournament might've been the first time he used SSJ3 in an actual fight. The only time we've aware of in U16 was against that illusion Bra out in space. Same with Gotenks who might not have used SSJ3 since the Buu saga. Goku and Vegeta would've had a better chance to improve SSJ3 or find an alternative.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 14, 2022 2:33:16 GMT
Back to SS3 topic in general. I agree with whoever said the concept behind the stronger the user of SS3 is shorter the transformation idea was made to put limits on Vegetto. The SS3 problem only impacts Vegetto and Gotenks who are both so stupid strong it makes SS3 last in seconds. Goku and the others can at least use the form for longer periods of time. If we keep the same idea of limiting Vegetto and keeping his power the pinnacle of DB universe I would have preferred SS3 just makes Vegetto so powerful now that even his casual blasts have the potential of destroying the whole planet he is on. It becomes less about Vegetto cannot maintain the form because of his strength is too great, but rather that his strength is so great now that using his full power risks destroying everyone even when he is trying to hold back. This way SS3 drawbacks do not need to exaggerated more while we give a whole new reason to limit Vegetto and fusions in general from using it. I think something like that could work too. Goku shook up the whole planet when he first went SSJ3. It didn't happen again though so maybe that because it was his first time using the form in a living body. Vegetto did something like that with increasing gravity but it didn't happen after the first time. In Vegetto's case, this tournament might've been the first time he used SSJ3 in an actual fight. The only time we've aware of in U16 was against that illusion Bra out in space. Same with Gotenks who might not have used SSJ3 since the Buu saga. Goku and Vegeta would've had a better chance to improve SSJ3 or find an alternative. The gravity effect or feeling like a black hole definitely felt like the usual DB jazz of how the first transformation usually feels world shattering to make for an exciting debut. After that first time the transformations are quick and not given that type of emphasis again. It doesn't surprise me that SS3 Vegetto not producing that type of effect again. I'm not sure if the artist would remember to add the gravity effect every time Vegetto transformed into SS3. I could see someone forgetting to do it at once or twice whenever they showed Vegetto go SS3. I would be satisfied with the less awe inspiring visual that we got during the Broly and Vegetto fight in favor of lip service of someone, likely Vegetto, saying the how his power is so great that every move he makes puts the planet in danger or some other nonsense. Just something to indicate this level of power is just too much. That way there is some wiggle room for artists who want to draw SS3 Vegetto from time to time as they have in the past, but still a handicap that keeps Vegetto from being able to use SS3 for a long time. Even Vegetto entering SS3 in a blind rage to attack Bra can still happen, although I wish it didn't happen, and it could even give credence that Vegetto is more like Bra than he realizes. SS3 Vegetto even just beating attacking his daughter could potentially destroy the arena. Gast stopping Vegetto in addition to saving Bra is also saving all their lives.
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Post by jbame on Jun 15, 2022 19:25:47 GMT
Super saiyan 3 is just sad.
In Buu saga it's mostly there just to look cool; you could genuinely remove it from the story and not much would change other than some fights being more one sided. In Super it got immediately obsolete with Super Saiyan God, being far more powerful and without ki drain. And now multiverse adds a nerf to it so that the stronger you get the more of a liability it becomes.
You could say the nerf to SSJ3 was made so Vegito wouldn't be invincible... but now with buu fighting off the entire multiverse I really doubt a character being too OP is a concern.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 16, 2022 15:09:40 GMT
In Buu saga it's mostly there just to look cool; you could genuinely remove it from the story and not much would change other than some fights being more one sided. In Super it got immediately obsolete with Super Saiyan God, being far more powerful and without ki drain. And now multiverse adds a nerf to it so that the stronger you get the more of a liability it becomes. I liked the idea that SSJ3 was a self parody by Toriyama. It took the increasing hair length of SSJ to the extreme and "subverts expectations" since it didn't defeat the villain like the other SSJ forms. Not much would change if it was removed since Goku only used it to stall Fat Buu and fight Kid Buu for a few pages. Gotenks would've had a strong fusion SSJ2 instead and Ultimate Gohan would've been weaker if SSJ2 was the final form but same outcome since both were absorbed. Video games and fanfiction are the only places Vegeta gets SSJ3 and any kind of upgrade to the form is discovered. Cumber in DB Heroes has a FPSSJ3 but he's a mutated Saiyan so that might be why only he has it. Both official sequels have a different type of energy for the forms after SSJ3 since GT includes Oozaru and DBS forms have God ki.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 12, 2023 21:21:05 GMT
In Buu saga it's mostly there just to look cool; you could genuinely remove it from the story and not much would change other than some fights being more one sided. In Super it got immediately obsolete with Super Saiyan God, being far more powerful and without ki drain. And now multiverse adds a nerf to it so that the stronger you get the more of a liability it becomes. I liked the idea that SSJ3 was a self parody by Toriyama. It took the increasing hair length of SSJ to the extreme and "subverts expectations" since it didn't defeat the villain like the other SSJ forms. Not much would change if it was removed since Goku only used it to stall Fat Buu and fight Kid Buu for a few pages. Gotenks would've had a strong fusion SSJ2 instead and Ultimate Gohan would've been weaker if SSJ2 was the final form but same outcome since both were absorbed. Video games and fanfiction are the only places Vegeta gets SSJ3 and any kind of upgrade to the form is discovered. Cumber in DB Heroes has a FPSSJ3 but he's a mutated Saiyan so that might be why only he has it. Both official sequels have a different type of energy for the forms after SSJ3 since GT includes Oozaru and DBS forms have God ki. This is a super late reply, but re-reading some old threads and this just came to mind after reading this one again. I also think Super Saiyan 3 was also meant to be a benchmark to how strong Majin Buu was and how strong the heroes would need to get to defeat him. Goku revealed SS3 to stall Buu and never thought to use it against Vegeta or Majin Buu. It was never shown to be the newest super form meant to defeat the villain, like SS1 and SS2 were. It goes into Toriyama subverting expectations again. By this point in the story, we had seen a new Super Saiyan form be the answer to defeating the Big Bad at the end. It is not that far-fetched to think fans would think this would happen again with Majin Buu. Toriyama instead of making it so Super Saiyan 2 as the final form he played into his own trope. He showed Goku found a new form even stronger than SS2 and could use it. The form seems pointless it was truly meant to show things would be different this time around since the heroes had someone reach the be all end all form and show it is not enough to save the say. The heroes need something new to win. Fusion dance and Old Kai power up are different from what had become the norm at this point. Goten and Trunks fusion could obtain the same type of power as SS3 despite the boys only having SS1 form unlocked. Gohan was meant to train first with the Z-Sword, which was different from the normal, then later get his full potential finally unlocked for real this time but improved on. Mystic Gohan has his full power in an enhanced base form that made SS transformations in general obsolete. Goku being initially unsure he could win against Buu with it, is probably meant to sell this idea that usual new Saiyan transformation wouldn't be enough this time. Despite Toriyama changing his mind on how to resolve the Buu arc a few times he seemed to only commit to the new enemy would not be defeated by the newest Super Saiyan form. SS3 failing Goku and the heroes needing to rely on the Spirit Bomb is consistent. Super Saiyan 3 severed its purpose in the arc it was introduced in. I don't necessarily think Toriyama was parodying himself or poking fun at himself, he may have, but trying to once again go with subverting expectations. This time the newest form isn't enough, and the villain will be defeated a new way. Despite how inconsistent the Buu arc is that is one thing Toriyama held on to and perhaps that is why the Spirit Bomb ending works as well as it does. It has everyone on Earth contribute to defeating the final villain. It has Vegeta complete his change to more tradition hero at last by coming up with the plan. It has Mr. Satan get to be a true hero again and actually use his fame to help everyone instead of stealing credit again. If Toriyama had fallen into SS3 being the form to defeat Buu after he changed his mind on the next generation stopping Buu and keeping Goku the lead after all that ending might not have resonated as well as the ending, we got.
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