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Post by drewsaga on Jun 26, 2023 3:37:26 GMT
I had a shower thought (I get those and sometimes DBM topics come to mind on this subject) and realized rereading some chapters of DBM and the novel I realized something. Tien knows the Kaioken (or at least it was implied) and yet he literally has never used it, not even in a life and death situation like with the Cell Jr and Krillin did. Tien did do a massive Neo-Tribeam but he went against U4 Buu what could one expect honestly there, painfully one-sided matchup regardless. The other thing too is it seems like Tien might be on the same level as Cyborg Yamcha and combined pummeled Cell Jr quite a bit before Videl landed the fatal blow. Pretty sure Tien never got any cybernetic enhancements neither unlike Yamcha.
Then I realized something else, Goku and Vegeta of U18 found a way to achieve the Mystic state or something close to it without using the Old Kai's magic like Gohan did. And needless to say it brought Goku and Vegeta to a whole new level (no way they are still SSJ3-level now the way their fight went down if only Vegetto could clearly see the fight and even Bra had a bit of trouble). But this isn't about U18 Goku or U18 Vegeta, this is about U9 Tien. Now obviously, Tien's potential is going to be far lower than Goku and Vegeta's potential, but whose to say he couldn't be stronger than Base Goku or even SSJ Goku (pre-HTC training) in this state? I am sure Frieza could get hell of a lot stronger too with this kind of powerup and may even be a legitimate threat to Goku and Vegeta if he got it, which could make U8 interesting if Frieza and/or Cooler are smart enough to see this as a way to surpass Ginyu/Cold and Ginyu might take the same path but that's a story for U8. I mention the non-Saiyan characters in this because this powerup, is not a Saiyan-exclusive transformation unlike the Super Saiyan forms and Old Kai did offer the powerup to Videl, which means we could have had a Mystic Videl and apparently she would be much closer to a Cell Jr in strength if she did without having to use a Transcended/Maximum Kaioken herself.
So we know Tien is an exceptional martial artist and many fans have considered him to be the strongest human too (feats-wise Tien certainly looks more impressive than Krillin). So it would be weird if he couldn't achieve this after years of training, and in a universe where there is no Goku, Vegeta, Gohan or Piccolo to function as a failsafe for if he couldn't save the day.
Now one thing that would be weird to me is how Tien achieves this but not Krillin. Krillin has also shown to be very impressive and skilled fighter in the same league as Tien (Toriyama considers Krillin stronger after all and that's not entirely unbelievable). Was Krillin actually less serious about his training than Tien and stood with his regular power plus Kaioken?
Maybe this isn't the case and I could be wrong but it would be weird if only Goku, Vegeta and both universes Gohans have this kind of powerup but not other characters (Vegetto don't have it but he is too proud to reach this form and it's not like he needs it unless he fought a U18 Gogeta), unless maybe Gast and XXI have something equivalent to it themselves, both Gast and XXI must at least be SSJ3-level at minimum.
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Post by jbame on Jun 26, 2023 11:55:04 GMT
goku and vegeta are prodigies among prodigies, and it took them 20 years to get the state even knowing about it from Old Kai
U9 had no clue the mystic state was even a thing, there is no way any of them figured it out
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 26, 2023 15:39:37 GMT
goku and vegeta are prodigies among prodigies, and it took them 20 years to get the state even knowing about it from Old Kai U9 had no clue the mystic state was even a thing, there is no way any of them figured it out By human standards so is Tien. Tien is practically the Goku and Vegeta of humans (I know I know, humans compared to Saiyans in battle prowess is sus). Of course that doesn't mean that they could have figured out the Mystic powerup when they never met Old Kai until the first round in DBM while Goku had met Old Kai and both Goku and Vegeta have seen an example of somebody with that kind of power (Gohan). On another note, Goku and Vegeta may be gifted fighters but they realized their potential by being training animals. U13 Vegeta isn't even on the same level as U18 Vegeta and U13 Kakarotto, LOL the dude only lasts cause he has immortality, nothing compared to U18 Goku, that version of Goku was so bad he lost to a Vegeta. U16 fighters like Bra and Vegetto could also be considered "prodigies among prodigies" but neither have achieved the Mystic state when they had the same knowledge and access to it that Goku and Vegeta had.
My reasoning is really that Goku and Vegeta draw from a core principle of Martial Arts about wasting energy/ki and maximizing efficiency. It's not a Super Saiyan level. Which may I add yes Goku and Vegeta are extremely talented fighters (especially Goku), but they overrelied on the Super Saiyan transformation never considering that there was always a better way until of course post-Buu Saga to DBM. Of course there was good reason why Goku and Vegeta use to overrely on SSJ forms, cause they were simply better than they could ever be in regular base (excluding the proto-Mystic/Mystic state), especially if Goku and Vegeta's base power in DBM is still somehow (somehow) lower than Goku's power was when he first became a Super Saiyan. Tien don't have such shortcuts to power, plus he is also an extremely skilled Martial Artist and I imagine skill-wise U9 Tien isn't too far removed from U18 Goku even. Best he could do is a Mafuba which isn't foolproof, risky, and prone to opening attacks if it fails. |
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 27, 2023 4:09:36 GMT
I don't think Goku and Vegeta's faux/pseudo-Mystic state would work the same way for the humans. Just going on what Goku and Vegeta said all they did was train their bodies to unleash their full power while minimizing the side effects/features of the Super Saiyan transformations. They both wanted to find a way to find an alternative to SS3 and saw Gohan as the example to chase. Goku and Vegeta becoming more energy efficient frees up a lot of wasted ki from causing the transformations and to maintain them, more ki goes into their power output.
Whereas with Tien I don't think training to control his body to the degree of Goku and Vegeta would help him as much. It might make him more energy efficient, but even that is kind of unsure. Humans don't have super forms that waste their ki like the Saiyans do. I'm sure they have immense potential, given what we have seen with Universe 9 and Old Kai's comments about U9 Videl, but I don't think they can learn Mystic state. They would still need to train to realize their potential. It's not exactly doing what Old Kai did for Gohan, which was unlock his full potential along with enhancing his body to harness his full power without Super Saiyan transformations.
It could just be Tien just hasn't used Kaioken yet. Krillin didn't use it until he fought Tapion and Gravity was too strong for him. Tien's opponent was Buu. He knew right off the bat trying to overpower him as a lost cause and went straight for Evil Containment Wave to seal him. When that failed Tien bowed out. Tien might just have decided against using Kaioken against Cell Junior for whatever reason.
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 27, 2023 18:05:18 GMT
I don't think Goku and Vegeta's faux/pseudo-Mystic state would work the same way for the humans. Just going on what Goku and Vegeta said all they did was train their bodies to unleash their full power while minimizing the side effects/features of the Super Saiyan transformations. They both wanted to find a way to find an alternative to SS3 and saw Gohan as the example to chase. Goku and Vegeta becoming more energy efficient frees up a lot of wasted ki from causing the transformations and to maintain them, more ki goes into their power output. Whereas with Tien I don't think training to control his body to the degree of Goku and Vegeta would help him as much. It might make him more energy efficient, but even that is kind of unsure. Humans don't have super forms that waste their ki like the Saiyans do. I'm sure they have immense potential, given what we have seen with Universe 9 and Old Kai's comments about U9 Videl, but I don't think they can learn Mystic state. They would still need to train to realize their potential. It's not exactly doing what Old Kai did for Gohan, which was unlock his full potential along with enhancing his body to harness his full power without Super Saiyan transformations. It could just be Tien just hasn't used Kaioken yet. Krillin didn't use it until he fought Tapion and Gravity was too strong for him. Tien's opponent was Buu. He knew right off the bat trying to overpower him as a lost cause and went straight for Evil Containment Wave to seal him. When that failed Tien bowed out. Tien might just have decided against using Kaioken against Cell Junior for whatever reason. To play advocate for your last comment Tien may have not used Kaioken to save it in case Videl got beaten so that someone was still standing and opposing the Cell Jr. Or maybe Tien knows that Kaioken probably isn't a good idea given his age (weird that Tien doesn't look old when he should) and avoids using it (but wouldn't that elude to my point of him trying to achieve a similar state of power Goku and Vegeta have?) unless absolutely necessary. At least referring to the confrontation with a Cell Jr, against Zen Buu was a foregone conclusion and we are talking about the #1 most one-sided fight in DBM history.
Now I do agree that humans wouldn't get the same level of benefit that Saiyans do with this statement, no denying that. SSJ3 levels of power is just outright unattainable for humans (even SSJ2 levels of power might be) and Goku and Vegeta (and both Gohans) went beyond any regular SSJ3. But this doesn't mean that there still wouldn't be a large payoff for Tien compared to if Tien didn't do it and relied on Kaioken which is worse than any Super Saiyan transformation.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 3, 2023 8:31:15 GMT
I think with what we know so far Goku and Vegeta mentioned all they are doing for their Ultimate states is concentrating to unlock/use their full power without fully transforming. They both mentioned how the Super Saiyan transformations are costly side effects brought on by this huge increase of power.
Let's say Goku's full power is 100. In order for Goku to normally achieve his full power he needs to transform into his Super Saiyan levels. Super Saiyan 3 is the point where Goku just doing endurance training by staying in the SS form as long as possible just isn't cutting it. When Goku goes into SS3 he needs to spend ki to transform into the form. Let's say that cost 20 to do. Goku goes from 100 to 80. Now he also has to spend ki to maintain the form, let's say that cost is 10 ki. Goku goes from 80 to 70. The transformation also puts a huge burden on the body, since he has stacked three costly transformations on top of each other.
SS3 Goku is 70 of 100 right off the bat, because of the costs to transform and maintain the transformation, and because the form chips away at his stamina, his power output keeps dropping. After a minute let's say Goku goes from 70 to 65. Another minute goes by he drops to 60, etc. Eventually Goku loses too much ki to maintain the form altogether. Already Goku is throwing away 30 ki just to transform. It's just a waste of ki and he has to deal with the huge burden on his stamina. Now what Goku did was train his body to full harness his full power, 100 ki points without the transformations.
Ultimate Goku has minimized his transformations to just the eyes so far, he has mostly succeeded in staying in his base overall. Let's say since he still partially transformed, he still spending 5 ki. Ultimate Goku starts of 95 ki, because now all the ki he spent to use SS3 and keep it up is freed for overall power output. Goku trying to maintain his base form to use his full power now, because it is his best form. Goku is not really transforming, but rather trying to keep from transforming. That is what Vegeta and Goku were talking about during their match. Their Ultimate forms are truly their base form.
The reason I bring this up is because humans don't have transformations to power them up. They have essentially evolved in a way where they can gain power without needing to transform their bodies and put heavy strain on them for more power. While Krillin, Yamecha, and Tien aren't as strong as SS2 or SS3 their bodies are at least strong enough to reach Super Saiyan levels without transformations. The humans just probably take longer time to reach those levels. Tien training his body to master it fully likely won't work the same way that Goku and Vegeta are doing. Goku and Vegeta are training to stay in their base while they harness their full power to stay energy efficient. They are essentially bringing out SS3 without the transformation.
I'm not sure if the humans have something to draw from like Goku and Vegeta. Tien essentially already in his base. I don't think he can achieve Mystic state or at least not the same way Old Kai did for Gohan through natural means. I think Tien just has to either gradually unlock his full potential, which is going to be a slow burn or have someone unlock it for him.
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Post by drewsaga on Jul 4, 2023 3:34:40 GMT
I think with what we know so far Goku and Vegeta mentioned all they are doing for their Ultimate states is concentrating to unlock/use their full power without fully transforming. They both mentioned how the Super Saiyan transformations are costly side effects brought on by this huge increase of power. Let's say Goku's full power is 100. In order for Goku to normally achieve his full power he needs to transform into his Super Saiyan levels. Super Saiyan 3 is the point where Goku just doing endurance training by staying in the SS form as long as possible just isn't cutting it. When Goku goes into SS3 he needs to spend ki to transform into the form. Let's say that cost 20 to do. Goku goes from 100 to 80. Now he also has to spend ki to maintain the form, let's say that cost is 10 ki. Goku goes from 80 to 70. The transformation also puts a huge burden on the body, since he has stacked three costly transformations on top of each other. SS3 Goku is 70 of 100 right off the bat, because of the costs to transform and maintain the transformation, and because the form chips away at his stamina, his power output keeps dropping. After a minute let's say Goku goes from 70 to 65. Another minute goes by he drops to 60, etc. Eventually Goku loses too much ki to maintain the form altogether. Already Goku is throwing away 30 ki just to transform. It's just a waste of ki and he has to deal with the huge burden on his stamina. Now what Goku did was train his body to full harness his full power, 100 ki points without the transformations. Ultimate Goku has minimized his transformations to just the eyes so far, he has mostly succeeded in staying in his base overall. Let's say since he still partially transformed, he still spending 5 ki. Ultimate Goku starts of 95 ki, because now all the ki he spent to use SS3 and keep it up is freed for overall power output. Goku trying to maintain his base form to use his full power now, because it is his best form. Goku is not really transforming, but rather trying to keep from transforming. That is what Vegeta and Goku were talking about during their match. Their Ultimate forms are truly their base form. The reason I bring this up is because humans don't have transformations to power them up. They have essentially evolved in a way where they can gain power without needing to transform their bodies and put heavy strain on them for more power. While Krillin, Yamecha, and Tien aren't as strong as SS2 or SS3 their bodies are at least strong enough to reach Super Saiyan levels without transformations. The humans just probably take longer time to reach those levels. Tien training his body to master it fully likely won't work the same way that Goku and Vegeta are doing. Goku and Vegeta are training to stay in their base while they harness their full power to stay energy efficient. They are essentially bringing out SS3 without the transformation. I'm not sure if the humans have something to draw from like Goku and Vegeta. Tien essentially already in his base. I don't think he can achieve Mystic state or at least not the same way Old Kai did for Gohan through natural means. I think Tien just has to either gradually unlock his full potential, which is going to be a slow burn or have someone unlock it for him. Hah! So Base Goku and Base Vegeta are stronger than Frieza! Checkmate!
Jokes aside, yes, humans don't have transformations so they would not benefit anywhere near as much from this as a Saiyan nor did I expect Tien to ever reach anywhere near SSJ3 levels or even SSJ2 levels for that matter. Elder Kai did imply that Videl would have had a way easier time though against the Cell Jr if she got the Mystic powerup.
Now the question is whether Kaioken counts here or not. Like can you stack Kaioken on top of the Mystic powerup or does the Mystic powerup account for Kaioken and by achieving this state that Kaioken is impossible? That would be broken because then Goku with such an OPed combo would land some blows against Vegetto even in his SSJ form.
Salagir seems to view it as Mystic levels (for Saiyans, obviously humans like Tien don't count here) > Any Super Saiyan Level > Kaioken, except Kaioken in Uub's case can be pushed to a point where it's better than SSJ1 in terms of power multiplying (but obviously worse in strain and far worse sustainability) with a Kaiokenx100 (which I assume was Uub's Maximum Kaioken, idk about "Transcended Kaioken", maybe x200?).
But my guess is that Kaioken cannot stack on top of the Mystic form for the same reason (to a lesser degree mayhaps) why one should not stack Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan and that if it can it'd be a low multiplier (like x2 but Mystic Kaiokenx2 is pretty dang good compared to a Kaiokenx100+ actually for a Saiyan).
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