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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Oct 30, 2023 20:11:14 GMT
As in fights that were close not just one shots like most of Gokus earlier fights. Vegeta vs Cell, worst fight in DBM. So many other ways they could have had Vegeta end Cell but they go with their fan fic nucleus grab. Vegeta is one of my favorite characters but without him using his newest form or at least tricking Cell into tanking a beam like his final flash or something while at least SSJ3. Cell should have beat him into the ground. Very disappointing fight, not to mention we didn’t even get Asura to draw it because no one likes drawing Cell because of his spots. Just all around disappointing after waiting years for this fight.
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Post by jbame on Oct 31, 2023 20:51:45 GMT
gast vs raichi for being wasted potential
gast vs bra (twice in a row, damn) for being too polarizing. This shows exactly why Gast being (relatively) weak isn't a good idea: In this fight he either got oneshotted or won instantly through paralysis. The mental battle wasnt too well executed either
Vegeta vs Cell, again, wasted potential. What would've been an interesting fight, seeing how Vegeta as a SS2 managed to overcome a Mystic Gohan level opponent, was wasted with a cheap win. The fact cell was outed off the tournament after that is not helping either.
Not sure if this counts but Buu vs The Multiverse was just terrible. Buu was flanderized, everyone's efforts are pointless because Buu is far above everyone and can hax his way through everything, and heroes only win through an asspull. It also destroyed the interesting Dynamic of the OP trio of Gast, Buu and Vegetto. Each of them is far above everyone else in the tournament, but they constantly kept each other in check so none of them could go berserk. Now Gast can easily be killed by either of them, and Buu is an omnipotent god that even SS3 vegetto can do nothing against.
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Post by drewsaga on Nov 1, 2023 1:51:56 GMT
gast vs raichi for being wasted potential gast vs bra (twice in a row, damn) for being too polarizing. This shows exactly why Gast being (relatively) weak isn't a good idea: In this fight he either got oneshotted or won instantly through paralysis. The mental battle wasnt too well executed either Vegeta vs Cell, again, wasted potential. What would've been an interesting fight, seeing how Vegeta as a SS2 managed to overcome a Mystic Gohan level opponent, was wasted with a cheap win. The fact cell was outed off the tournament after that is not helping either. Not sure if this counts but Buu vs The Multiverse was just terrible. Buu was flanderized, everyone's efforts are pointless because Buu is far above everyone and can hax his way through everything, and heroes only win through an asspull. It also destroyed the interesting Dynamic of the OP trio of Gast, Buu and Vegetto. Each of them is far above everyone else in the tournament, but they constantly kept each other in check so none of them could go berserk. Now Gast can easily be killed by either of them, and Buu is an omnipotent god that even SS3 vegetto can do nothing against. I thought Gast vs Raichi was rather good (one of the best fights honestly even, though maybe not the best), but yeah, it could have been truly a top-tier fight.
I agree with you on the other three though. Gast vs Bra was butts, Vegeta vs Cell was also butts, and Buu being ridiculously OPed, like it was fun seeing him have fun but I would have loved to see Buu get real pushback and even defeated possibly (even if XXI had to step in to do it). I really don't care for Buu being so untouchable (even to Vegetto and to some extent Gast) as an opponent.
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Post by drewsaga on Nov 1, 2023 1:54:09 GMT
Vegeta vs Cell, worst fight in DBM. So many other ways they could have had Vegeta end Cell but they go with there fan fic nucleus grab. Vegeta is one of my favorite characters but without him using his newest form or at least tricking Cell into tanking a beam like his final flash or something while at least SSJ3. Cell should have beat him into the ground. Very disappointing fight, not to mention we didn’t even get Asura to draw it because no one likes drawing Cell because of his spots. Just all around disappointing after waiting years for this fight. Yeah, Vegeta vs Cell was bad, but the worst? I suppose the worst among any real fight. Like Buu vs XXI was worse and Gast vs Bra was worse for the fact those aren't real fights. Goku vs Uub was the only good one we got on the Quarter Finals (and let's be honest, it *pales* in comparison to Goku vs Vegeta, a potential top-tier though I can't judge it until it's finished) It's why I rate Vegeta vs Cell as D (or D+) Tier and Buu vs XXI and Gast vs Bra as F-Tier.
Honestly I can't think of a bad Round 3 fight on the other hand, Goku vs Frieza might be the worst one (really, the fight is just a stinking illusion, it looks cool to the credit of the author and artist). All the other fights on Round 3 were solid, even one-sided fights like Vegeta vs Kakarotto and Cell vs Tapion. Round 3 fights were the top tier ones overall compared to the other rounds while Round 4 (Quarter Finals) were bottom on average.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Nov 1, 2023 3:37:34 GMT
Vegeta vs Cell, worst fight in DBM. So many other ways they could have had Vegeta end Cell but they go with there fan fic nucleus grab. Vegeta is one of my favorite characters but without him using his newest form or at least tricking Cell into tanking a beam like his final flash or something while at least SSJ3. Cell should have beat him into the ground. Very disappointing fight, not to mention we didn’t even get Asura to draw it because no one likes drawing Cell because of his spots. Just all around disappointing after waiting years for this fight. Yeah, Vegeta vs Cell was bad, but the worst? I suppose the worst among any real fight. Like Buu vs XXI was worse and Gast vs Bra was worse for the fact those aren't real fights. Goku vs Uub was the only good one we got on the Quarter Finals (and let's be honest, it *pales* in comparison to Goku vs Vegeta, a potential top-tier though I can't judge it until it's finished) It's why I rate Vegeta vs Cell as D (or D+) Tier and Buu vs XXI and Gast vs Bra as F-Tier.
Honestly I can't think of a bad Round 3 fight on the other hand, Goku vs Frieza might be the worst one (really, the fight is just a stinking illusion, it looks cool to the credit of the author and artist). All the other fights on Round 3 were solid, even one-sided fights like Vegeta vs Kakarotto and Cell vs Tapion. Round 3 fights were the top tier ones overall compared to the other rounds while Round 4 (Quarter Finals) were bottom on average.
Yea I was being a bit over dramatic in my prior post. Looking back I more so should have titled it bad fights you’d want to change the outcome of. Instead of being a bit obnoxious about it like I was.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 1, 2023 19:35:31 GMT
For me the worst fight is Buu vs. XXI. The fight itself is uneventful, nothing new is revealed about either character, the story development from it was disappointing, and it in general was a huge waste of potential. I am sure DBM had its reasons for having the officials be the ones to beat Buu, but it felt forced and the execution left much to be desired. I still maintain the best way to write Buu out and in a way most readers would have accepted is if XXI was behind it. This should have been the fight to humble Buu and explore an aspect of Buu we haven’t truly seen in this story yet, fear. What would Buu do if he faced someone who could counter his abilities or limit his god like power? To keep XXI from being as OP as Buu make it so he can seal or lock some of Buu’s abilities with magic. We already saw magic can be used to pull all of Buu’s pieces back to him. There is nothing saying there couldn’t be a spell that does that and prevents Buu from splitting himself apart again. If Buu’s magic was sealed away or limited in some way it stops Buu’s reality warping that an turn the tide of the fight with a snap of his fingers. It prevents Buu from being omnipotent and again shows how a weaker opponent can use the right techniques/spells to overcome someone stronger.
It serves to tear down Grand’s belief that Buu is omnipotent so when the reveal of them working together is exposed we can have the other characters pick apart his arguments and since Buu would be truly defeated they would sink into Grand this time and force him to undergo character development by facing the guilty of not lifting a finger to help his subordinates and the other competitors because he was so dependent on Buu. He would have to face the fact that he was wrong and be reminded how Buu ignored his cries for help when he watched the slaughter happen during the Majin Rebellion. It sets up Grand redeeming himself later in the story and become an active player again the next time something pops off.
Just something that would have been better than what we got and would have added to U4 Buu and Grand Supreme Kai’s characters. It stops Buu from being able invincible.
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Post by godjacob on Nov 18, 2023 19:55:07 GMT
Any answer that isn't XXI vs. Buu is the objective wrong answer, what a piss stain of potential that fight was. But on a more subjective/personal note I hate Buu vs. Everyone as it just made the DBM cast look like utter chumps to wank Zen Buu on his way out the door and was one of the big tipping points to make me take a year break from the series.
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Post by drewsaga on Nov 19, 2023 2:05:45 GMT
Any answer that isn't XXI vs. Buu is the objective wrong answer, what a piss stain of potential that fight was. But on a more subjective/personal note I hate Buu vs. Everyone as it just made the DBM cast look like utter chumps to wank Zen Buu on his way out the door and was one of the big tipping points to make me take a year break from the series. As fun as it was to see Buu troll everyone it would have been incredibly satisfying if U4 Buu actually did get defeated in a fight rather than just simply be teleported back to his universe. But no, that satisfaction is forever gone.
I think it was absurd too, though honestly the wank with Buu (being that he has absorbed many beings with vastly large variety of talents) is more believable than say, Broly getting wanked to being able to freaking beat Buu in U20 after Buu absorbed the Z-fighters.
I totally agree though, Buu vs XXI is undeniably the worst fight in the Quarter Finals (and considering Vegeta vs Cell and even Bra vs Gast that's saying something) and possibly the worst fight in all of DBM, when it actually had the potential to be one of the best.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 28, 2023 16:19:27 GMT
Buu trolling everyone got old about halfway through the Buu vs the Multiverse chapter for me as well. The reason I didn’t put that as my least favorite fight is because I felt it was more of a symptom of how they chose to resolve XXI and Buu match. By the time that match ended it was a given the fight with Multiverse was going to be Buu overpowers everyone and easily handled them. There wasn’t as big of a disappointment for me in comparison to Buu vs XXI. The grand displays of magic got ton much emphasis IMO. There are ways for a weaker mage to have defeated a stronger one with the right spells and abilities.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Dec 1, 2023 22:42:39 GMT
Going against the grain here but for me personally. It was Gast vs Bra. Only because...I feel like that fight. We didn't get clarification on how accurate their mental predictions were. CAN Gast really tank a bunch of ki blasts from SSJ2 Bra (which says alot about his power level). Or is Bra just hyping Gast up in her own mind??
Yes the XXI vs Buu fight was short. But atleast we got a clear cut answer that XXI could defeat Buu. Plus it at least was Satisfying to see Zen Buu get 1 upped. It was pretty cool seeing how the egg is created(well the DBM interpretation) AND XXIs true form reveal deff lived up to the hype. Even tho the Zen Buu vs everyone dragged. I liked that we got confirmation that even SSJ3 Vegetto can't fully beat Buu. And I personally enjoyed the Vargas standing up for themselves and taking their damn tournament back. It wasn't great but there are parts I enjoyed and we got alot of answers too.
Where as Gast vs Bra. I feel like we didn't get enough truth to find out who would really win in a tournament match between them. Or where they stand in power relative to each other. I also get the feeling here was when Bra was originally probably going to get some advice from Gast and start her growth arc. But because of backlash it had to be at the end of the Majin Rebellion. So you didnt even get any Gast-vice here.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 1, 2023 23:58:46 GMT
Going against the grain here but for me personally. It was Gast vs Bra. Only because...I feel like that fight. We didn't get clarification on how accurate their mental predictions were. CAN Gast really tank a bunch of ki blasts from SSJ2 Bra (which says alot about his power level). Or is Bra just hyping Gast up in her own mind?? Yes the XXI vs Buu fight was short. But atleast we got a clear cut answer that XXI could defeat Buu. Plus it at least was Satisfying to see Zen Buu get 1 upped. It was pretty cool seeing how the egg is created(well the DBM interpretation) AND XXIs true form reveal deff lived up to the hype. Even tho the Zen Buu vs everyone dragged. I liked that we got confirmation that even SSJ3 Vegetto can't fully beat Buu. And I personally enjoyed the Vargas standing up for themselves and taking their damn tournament back. It wasn't great but there are parts I enjoyed and we got alot of answers too. Where as Gast vs Bra. I feel like we didn't get enough truth to find out who would really win in a tournament match between them. Or where they stand in power relative to each other. I also get the feeling here was when Bra was originally probably going to get some advice from Gast and start her growth arc. But because of backlash it had to be at the end of the Majin Rebellion. So you didnt even get any Gast-vice here. I think Gast would win honestly. Aside from experience his magic abilities are too great for even Vegetto. Unlikely (but not impossible) Bra could squeeze out a win.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 2, 2023 3:52:22 GMT
Said magic abilities seem situational in terms of how effective they are chapter to chapter with the guy.
The worst thing DBM did was present him as a SSj3 Tier fraud vs. Raichi. Feat wise Bra should've absolutely spanked Gast before he got a magic spell off but because Salagir wanted Gast to win without actually making Bra lose, she overestimates Gast in her head for this result.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 4, 2023 4:55:05 GMT
Said magic abilities seem situational in terms of how effective they are chapter to chapter with the guy. The worst thing DBM did was present him as a SSj3 Tier fraud vs. Raichi. Feat wise Bra should've absolutely spanked Gast before he got a magic spell off but because Salagir wanted Gast to win without actually making Bra lose, she overestimates Gast in her head for this result. Not quite. It's clear that Gast literally can shut down Buu and Vegetto and little reason to believe it wouldn't work on Bra. Gast was fast enough to save Bra from Vegetto about to kill her in SSJ3. He may very well have a similar powerup to Goku and Vegeta where during the start of their fight they were moving extremely fast to where even Bra had some trouble following it. It's likely Gast is on the same level power-wise as those two as well.
The other thing is that Gast had to not only face Ghost SSJ3 Vegeta but Ghost LSSJ Broly and beat Hatiyack (however you spell his name, might as well spell it Pink Dildo Man).
I think if Gast was made to be OPed like Buu that it would make little sense for XXI to lose. XXI got lucky beating Buu and honestly that felt forced the way XXI just snuffed out Buu like it was nothing. So having Gast as SSJ2 Vegetto-level with OPed magic would be quite crazy since it was already insane when Buu did it. This way Gast is more balanced. He is still a formidable opponent and his abilities put him overall higher than Goku, Vegeta and XXI since all of them are SSJ3-tier/Mystic-tier much like Gast. Which means that Goku, Vegeta, Gast and XXI power-wise are practically on equal footing. Goku and Vegeta are more on the side of martial arts and battle prowess. Gast and XXI are more aligned with the mastery of the mystic arts (but I think XXI is more specialized while Gast can cover both magic and fighting).
Now it is just as likely Bra could blitz Gast as well, that I think was a 50-50 chance where one person can quickly one-off the other (and Gast could conceivably react to Bra's movements especially since he has seen her fight already against the Heliote guy and the Frost Demon). Similar to XXI vs Buu.
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Post by Shady Doorags on Dec 5, 2023 4:05:03 GMT
The fights I have the most hatred for are the ones with deus ex machinas, which are Bra vs Cold, Ginyu vs Kais and Buu vs the Multiverse. But technically I only dislike how those fights ended, not the entire fights themselves. The fight with the most overall disappointment for me was Bra vs Gast. Using that many pages to show an imaginary fight was awful pacing and Bra giving up was forced and poorly executed character development. Not to mention, Bra made an incorrect calculation. If she could teleport Gast away, even if he somehow knew her teleport technique, he wouldn't be able to follow her back. The technique she uses requires a relative location, otherwise Vegetto could've just teleported back during the Babidi rebellion.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 5, 2023 22:29:09 GMT
The fights I have the most hatred for are the ones with deus ex machinas, which are Bra vs Cold, Ginyu vs Kais and Buu vs the Multiverse. But technically I only dislike how those fights ended, not the entire fights themselves. The fight with the most overall disappointment for me was Bra vs Gast. Using that many pages to show an imaginary fight was awful pacing and Bra giving up was forced and poorly executed character development. Not to mention, Bra made an incorrect calculation. If she could teleport Gast away, even if he somehow knew her teleport technique, he wouldn't be able to follow her back. The technique she uses requires a relative location, otherwise Vegetto could've just teleported back during the Babidi rebellion. Honestly Bra vs Cold wasn't that bad all things considered (but yes, it could have been a very high tier fight without the senzu beans, could have ended better for sure). The Majin Bra fight is where a lot of the BS with Bra happened as she just constantly stayed a step ahead of everyone somehow (she was incredibly sharp of a fighter for someone who is a disturbed teenager (with murderous intent) and was being manipulated by Babidi) and had some beans on her on hand (which you know, is in character if Bra vs Cold was any sign).
And yeah, all the other fights you mentioned was highly disappointing I agree, like Ginyu vs Kais (not that much but you know, some shit happened off screen with zero explanation), Buu vs the Multiverse, Bra vs Gast, I would also add Buu vs XXI into the mix as well since the author made Buu extremely OPed and instead of having an epic magic duel, XXI cast a spell and one-offed Buu and Buu decided he didn't give a shit about anything anymore and sowed chaos and trolled everyone (Buu vs Multiverse followed).
Although I am uncertain if Bra's teleportation would work against Gast (Gast could have the same move or something similar you know), but the issue is not whether it would work or not (it's worth a try! It's a good move and teleporting her opponent out of the ring helped her win the 2nd Round). It's the fact that Bra is basically a coward (or at least that is what Salagir seems to be telling me). That she always takes the easy way out of problems (even when it isn't necessary, she could have refused Cold's bet you know instead of being an arrogant showboat only to have to use a bean) and she decided instead of having a tough battle against Gast and potentially winning (she has much more physical strength and speed so it's not like winning wasn't in the cards for her any less than it is for Gast and his OPed magic), she decides to forfeit. It is a shame because she actually could have grown as a fighter if she actually had a challenging opponent besides her dad for once. In that sense, it feels right for Gast to be in the semi-finals cause at least he has the balls to challenge himself against tough opponents (and don't tell me about how Gast's magic is "cheating", Gast probably has trained to learn those spells and Vegetto and Buu can suck it for all I care).
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