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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 13, 2023 16:57:27 GMT
Are there any characters you wish would have been included into DBM that didn't make the cut?
For me personally, I've always been a fan of Pikkon.
I wish he would have made some sort of appearance in any of the universes. I would love to see Salagir's take on him. I get only wanting to go by the manga's canon, but then we have Broly and Cooler in the tournament, so why couldn't we have gotten Pikkon?!
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 13, 2023 18:05:07 GMT
I wish we had all of the families and friends from U16 and U18 attending actually. It would have been cool to see Krillin, Yamecha, and Tien interact with their U9 counterparts. U18 18 interacting with U14 18 could have been meaningful. She could have helped U9 Yamecha get through to her counterpart. 18 from either U16 or U18 could make U14 18 question her identity and her choices.
Imagine how heartbreaking U16 Chi-chi meeting U18 Goku would have been. She probably made peace with never seeing Goku ever again only to meet a version of her husband that came back after Buu. It would be bittersweet for her to know some version of herself got to reunite with Goku. There could be powerful emotional moments to be mined. I do understand that would be a lot of characters to keep track of in an already bloated cast.
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Post by iron leaf on Dec 14, 2023 0:46:06 GMT
What I definitely miss in DBM is Bulma. Salagir explained in the Q&A stream that Son Bra is basically replacing Bulma as the new female protagonist. And since Bulma is older, doesn't fight, and the setting of the DBM tournament doesn't offer many possibilities where Bulma and her knowledge would be helpful, it makes perfect sense why they cut another person so that the cast isn't further bloated. Nonetheless, I can't shake the feeling that something is missing. And this feeling is especially reinforced in the specials when we see one of the 20 variations of Bulma. I agree that there should have been at least one Bulma in the tournament.
My choice would have been U9 Bulma. On the one hand, it's a completely new take on a long-established character that everyone knows too well. On the other hand, it would give the member from U9 a bit more depth and background. And all the potential interactions with other universes (All the Trunks', all the Vegeta's, etc). Bulma could also have been included in the #18 - Yamcha Android sideplot. Possibly also show scenes of Bulma actually repairing/maintaining Yamcha on site and better get the point across that Yamcha's superiority is related to constant maintenance and thus being an android doesn't automatically give him an advantage over Tien, Krillin & Videl.
However, that would require Salagir to show Bulma more often and not just for one or two reactions. Which brings us to the novel/comic debate. Sure, U9 Bulma is actually comic-canon, as she can be seen in 3 different situations. However, all of these can be disregarded in the larger view of the story as she does nothing but stand there.
Once posing on the cover of chapter 19 (see page 401). Another time at the first Buu-Tantrum in chapter 33 (see page 739), which I ultimately consider a mistake by Zettoshonen, because I claim Salagir didn't even plan Bulma for the storyboard and the artist drew her in by mistake and in retrospect nobody noticed, especially because Bulma is so inconspicuous in the background. And then one last time not too long ago in chapter 92 (see page 2138), where she again only posed briefly like on the cover of chapter 19. I'm also neglecting this, because in my opinion Xeno Black made a mistake here by introducing U9 Bulma (and U9 Trunks), despite it was made clear that they were completely ignored in the comic so far. This raises questions as to where she's even been all this time if she is indeed comic canon.
Another character I kind of miss and generally an entire group of villains that has been severely neglected. The Red Ribbon Army. The early characters can't hold a candle to the current figure from DBZ, of course. But Dr. Gero. It's a shame that the one who is responsible for more DBM universes than anyone else is missing. Every universe that Future Trunks has influenced (including U18 eventually) is a direct influence of Gero's inventions. It would be nice to see the old scientist come to the DBM tournament with his own entourage parallel to U14 #17 & #18 and U12 #16.
My choices, besides Gero himself, would be #19, #15, #14 and #13. With the exception of U8 Frost Demons (And U10), most universes just came to the tournament with a handful of people. If you want to get the win for yourself, it's enough to use your strongest assets, not all of them. So a rather small group would be sufficient (similar to U19). Some may say that the movie androids are boring. Sure, but that's the beauty of what-ifs. You can make something interesting out of them if you want to (see Cyborg-Yamcha or Mystic Raditz or even Bojack). In this case, I would have written U2 out completely. Clear gags would have been missing, granted, but not much would have been lost. Considering that almost all of U2 was gone after chapter 35 anyway. You could have taken your time to go into why Cell, #16, #17 and #18 are missing from this universe, why Gero won, etc.
But I'm fully aware that Androids aren't particularly popular with Salagir (considering what a laughably pathetic showing they've had in DBM so far).
Last but not least, where is Upa? At least in the audience for one page. I'd be happy with that.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Dec 14, 2023 1:32:46 GMT
I also have to Echo Android 20/ Dr. GERO because I think his interactions with Cell, and U9 could have been super interesting.
Also I love Janembas 2nd form design even tho he's probably too insane to be in the tournament. But wish he could have been incorporated somehow.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 14, 2023 2:18:06 GMT
Dr. Gero is the most baffling omission. He is like directly tied to or responsible for half the antagonists in Dragon Ball yet doesn't even get acknowledged.
It's also a bit of a letdown that certain movie villains like Garlic Jr., Dr. Wheelo, Turles, Janemba etc. don't get any rep at all. Lot of good material just left squandered.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 14, 2023 4:47:56 GMT
I think it would have been cool to see other U18 characters (even as spectators) and maybe their U16 counterparts as well.
U9 Trunks and Bulma would have been good too since they seem to only have been shown in the novel version and on a couple of chapter covers.
I can't think of too many others. I guess it would have been interesting to see a universe with Dr. Gero involved since like some said, he is responsible for the entirety of the Android and Cell Saga happening at all not to mention time traveling Trunks that we know of.
Salagir did say he wanted to include characters with unique abilities and different backgrounds but ultimately there was only room for 20 Universes (I know, he had to pick Broly of U20 but fine, at least we got a spectacle between Broly and Vegetto so that's something). He said something like that, his words probably weren't exactly that.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 14, 2023 5:04:12 GMT
I think it would have been cool to see other U18 characters (even as spectators) and maybe their U16 counterparts as well. U9 Trunks and Bulma would have been good too since they seem to only have been shown in the novel version and on a couple of chapter covers. I can't think of too many others. I guess it would have been interesting to see a universe with Dr. Gero involved since like some said, he is responsible for the entirety of the Android and Cell Saga happening at all not to mention time traveling Trunks that we know of. Salagir did say he wanted to include characters with unique abilities and different backgrounds but ultimately there was only room for 20 Universes (I know, he had to pick Broly of U20 but fine, at least we got a spectacle between Broly and Vegetto so that's something). He said something like that, his words probably weren't exactly that. The man has the gall to say this but then dedicate all of Universe 15 to being a solo gag in I'K'L. That is just a waste of space that could've been used lol
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 14, 2023 12:22:07 GMT
I think it would have been cool to see other U18 characters (even as spectators) and maybe their U16 counterparts as well. U9 Trunks and Bulma would have been good too since they seem to only have been shown in the novel version and on a couple of chapter covers. I can't think of too many others. I guess it would have been interesting to see a universe with Dr. Gero involved since like some said, he is responsible for the entirety of the Android and Cell Saga happening at all not to mention time traveling Trunks that we know of. Salagir did say he wanted to include characters with unique abilities and different backgrounds but ultimately there was only room for 20 Universes (I know, he had to pick Broly of U20 but fine, at least we got a spectacle between Broly and Vegetto so that's something). He said something like that, his words probably weren't exactly that. The man has the gall to say this but then dedicate all of Universe 15 to being a solo gag in I'K'L. That is just a waste of space that could've been used lol U15 and U2 could have easily been combined into one universe, with both I'K'L and the toon force coming from opposite ends of the universe. That would have opened up at least one universe for something like Dr. Gero, Turles, Garlic (Sr. or Jr.), or Janemba to take center stage.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 15, 2023 0:57:27 GMT
I think it would have been cool to see other U18 characters (even as spectators) and maybe their U16 counterparts as well. U9 Trunks and Bulma would have been good too since they seem to only have been shown in the novel version and on a couple of chapter covers. I can't think of too many others. I guess it would have been interesting to see a universe with Dr. Gero involved since like some said, he is responsible for the entirety of the Android and Cell Saga happening at all not to mention time traveling Trunks that we know of. Salagir did say he wanted to include characters with unique abilities and different backgrounds but ultimately there was only room for 20 Universes (I know, he had to pick Broly of U20 but fine, at least we got a spectacle between Broly and Vegetto so that's something). He said something like that, his words probably weren't exactly that. The man has the gall to say this but then dedicate all of Universe 15 to being a solo gag in I'K'L. That is just a waste of space that could've been used lol I mean, he said it not me lol (Or maybe he didn't specifically say it this way but he did make mention of these ideas implying so).
Yeah, so far I'K'L and Mary Sue are wastes of space (though Mary Sue is purely a gag and it's doubtful she does anything important), but events related to I'K'L could happen soon perhaps (though again, we get misled into thinking so and come to find out it's just a prank).
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 15, 2023 18:24:28 GMT
Gero is an interesting one. I can see reasons for using him and reasons for not using him. He is the main cause for the Android/Cyborg/Cell arcs, which are a lot of DB fans favorite arcs. Having a universe where Gero actually got it right, gained control of 17 and 18, made 16 into the killing machine he wanted, and actually achieved his goal is both an intriguing and an obvious choice for a DB multiverse story. On the other hand I do think more fans liked his creations over the man himself. Getting a universe where 17 and 18 won in the end, with Trunks never coming back to stop them, or Cell won and went on to terrorize the galaxy. We have a few universes surrounding the time travel journeys. We still feel Gero’s impact on the story, pretty similar to the series itself. Arguably getting Raichi as the mad scientist is potentially more interesting than Gero’s at the time.
Both pros and cons to Gero universe. Or the very least we could possibly gotten a good Gero in U9 who had to work with his enemies to stop the alien invaders threatening their planet and race. Gero has a lot of potential that is a shame to not see him used in a more direct way. We could have gotten a universe where Gero made himself both an infinite energy model and energy absorption model to make himself a truly powerful enemy.
As for more movie based universes, I think the one I would have preferred Janemba based universe. I know he would require some reworking to not make him another mindless beast like Broly. I think he could have evolved and become more intelligent being after the events of movie 12. Movie 12 can be rewritten fairly easily to work with canon. Just set the events after they defeated Buu. Goku and Vegeta just travel to Other World through Instant Transmission and the excuse for why Gohan and Gotenks stay back is to deal with the possibility that Kid Buu or Broly returned to life. In most universes they win because the duo successfully fused into a perfected Gogeta while in the universe where Janemba wins could be due to Goku and Vegeta messing up the fusion and they were killed before the could wait it out and refuse. The dimension powers would have made him stand out and be a fun villain in this tournament. I did like the inclusion of Slug as part of U13 story. I think he is a cool fingers to have in the backstory of other universes. I wish he had been used in 3. It could have been awesome to see Saiyans having to fight Slug’s forces. Titles I am fine with leaving out. We do have a lot of Saiyan universes. I’m not sure he is needed.
There some movie characters could be hinted at though or used as an Easter Egg. 13, 14, and 15 being seen in Gero’s lab for example could be a fun nod. Metal Cooler based universe might have been fun to see in one of the universes.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 20, 2023 17:19:13 GMT
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Post by jonathanvik on Dec 27, 2023 7:53:59 GMT
How about one from the Demon World? I'd be cool to let Debora have his own team. And weren't there technically demons that showed up in the OG Dragon Ball that was part of a filler episode? They could get brought back!
Or what about Fortuneteller Baba sponsoring her own team? That would be pretty amusing. She could have more team members based off the Universal Monsters! I recall Toriyama didn't you the fishman or the Bride of Frankenstein.
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Post by hector on Jan 2, 2024 20:20:06 GMT
-Nineteen/Twenty (Dr Gero): A universe where they beat the Z-Fighters and became insanely strong by keeping absorbing energy. -Garlic Jr: A universe where he won and turned the Z-Fighters (including SSJ Goku) into his mind slaves. -Beerus (a nerfed version thereof): A U16 special where he fights Vegetto wouldn't be bad. It's not too late for Salagir to add that.
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Post by jonathanvik on Jan 22, 2024 20:58:08 GMT
How about a universe based off the Curse of the Blood Rubies timeline? If you don't know, that's the continuity where the original Dragonball movies happened. It'd be kinda cool to see what happened to Goku and his friends after the original three movies.
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Post by drewsaga on Feb 7, 2024 4:45:23 GMT
How about a universe based off the Curse of the Blood Rubies timeline? If you don't know, that's the continuity where the original Dragonball movies happened. It'd be kinda cool to see what happened to Goku and his friends after the original three movies. Curse of the Blood Rubies timeline?
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Post by jonathanvik on Feb 7, 2024 6:39:50 GMT
How about a universe based off the Curse of the Blood Rubies timeline? If you don't know, that's the continuity where the original Dragonball movies happened. It'd be kinda cool to see what happened to Goku and his friends after the original three movies. Curse of the Blood Rubies timeline? Yeah, from the OG Dragonball movies. The first movie is a retelling of the Pilaf, only with a different foe, King Gurumes. The next two share some elements from the OG Dragonball, but certain elements are different. Chiaotzu is an emperor of a country named Mifan, for example. With Crane master Shen is his advisor and Tien is Chiaotzu's bodyguard and best friend. These movies condense many elements from the original show, but in a new and refreshing ways. I bring up this timeline, but I'd think it'd be interesting to see remixed and altered versions of the classic DBZ storylines. It's open to a lot of creative ideas!
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Post by loopwhirlipide on Feb 15, 2024 23:59:00 GMT
As many people has pointed out, Dr. Gero is the most glaring omission in DBM, but I'd like to present my idea to intergrate him and a couple characters in a new universe (replacing U10 since the Saiyans and Nameks can easily be from U1 wihtout changing the plot). This What If? takes into consideration the starting events of Movie 2:The World's Strongest, where Dr. Kochin is looking for the Dragon Balls to unfreeze the ice that covers Dr. Wheelo's lab. The main difference to connect it with the DBM continuity is that the Dragon Balls are being safely kept on the Lookout to resurrect Goku when the Saiyans arrive on Earth, so Dr. Kochin tries to raid the Lookout with his Bio Men, but it defeated with the combined efforts of all the warriors training after Kami, so Wheelo remains inactive for the rest of his life, until Earth is destroyed in the Buu saga and he isn't brought back to life. In this universe, however, Dr. Kochin optes for a different means to get his objective by tracking one of Dr. Wheelo's trusted colleagues: Dr. Gero,undercover after the RR Army's destruction at the hands of Goku. In this moment of the timeline Gero has just finished the creation (and dismissal) of Android 15 and hasn't kidnapped either Lapis or Lazuli, and it still an old man that hasn't transferred his mind to C20. Dr. Kochin finds his lab and proposes that Gero aids on the retrieval of Wheelo's mind so that they can join forces in his mission to defeat Goku. Gero ultimately agrees, quietly getting Wheelo out of his laboratory With their combined forces, Dr. Gero successfully repurposes Android 13 as his new and optimized body (I like the theory that he was modelled after Gero's younger self), while Wheelo is transferred to C15 while they create his new body,while they keep an eye on the attack of the Saiyans. They finish preparations earlier compared to the main timeline, but decide to wait for Goku's arrival to execute their attack. After this,the timeline events would play out mostly like in the Future timeline, where the Dragon Team has to defeat Mecha Frieza and King Cold after their arrival on Earth without Trunks. Exactly the Day after Goku's arrival on Earth, the Doctors unleash their attack on the Dragon Team, using all the Androids and Bio-Warriors they have at their disposal after seeing the gigantic power SSJ Goku possesses. After a fierce battle , the Z warriors manage to destroy most of their enemies, including Dr. Kochin, but are ultimately defeated by Gero and Wheelo and the Dragon Balls are deactivated.Only Goku is kept alive after getting severely weakened,as Wheelo still wants to transfer his conscience to a World Martial Arts' winner,while Bulma and her father are imprisoned for their scientific knowledge. News of Goku defeating his family still run amok, so Cooler decides to travel to Earth, but this time it's a villain vs villain encounter. Due to one of Goku's attemps to liberate himself, Cooler's forces manage to track the location of the lab, and realizing the inmense power of the Frost Demon, Wheelo quickly needs to kill Goku so they're not discovered when the invaders get close enough.This is proved worthless,as the aliens deploy a similar stragedy to the movie and simply destroy the landscape. The doctors manage to escape, but Dr. Gero's lab is completely destroyed, including the Cell project that he had previously abandoned. With a lot of stragedy from Gero and Wheelo they manage to absorb Cooler's attacks and obliterate him. After they recover, Gero and Wheelo recover Cooler's spaceship and reverse engineer it for its advanced technology, achieving space travel. Over the next few years, not only Earth is taken under control, but the Red Ribbon Army is rebuilt as an intergalactic force under a new name: the Red Ribbon Empire, taking quick control over the power vacuum left by the Frost Demons. Broly never loses control , Hoi never managed to liberate Tapion and Babidi still tries to liberate Buu but the strongest forces in Earth don't spread ki. There is even the chance that the RR Empire finds and exploits the Big Gete Star With this universe not only Gero gets to appear in the fanfic, but two unused DBZ movies get their spotlight (Movies 2 and 10) and Movie 5 gets another purpose outside the introduction of Cooler. Universe 10: The Red Ribbon EmpireParticipants: Dr.Gero(still using Android 13's looks with a more sophisticated fashion), Android 8(Eigther,reprogrammed to follow Gero and his strongest soldier). Spectators: Dr. Wheelo (looking like his human appereance on DB Heroes), "A16"(not a fighter created to destroy Goku,but to remember Gero's son),other servants?
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Gero would replace I'K'L in the Tournament Bracket, and I'K'L himself is paired against Goku (Mahissu who?), so he's still disqualified by technicality like in the original(even if Goku was willing to wait for his fight). Round 1 : Gero vs C17. This is a really ironic matchup,since this Gero never actually created C17 in his timeline and C17 killed his Gero in his, only this time he is absolutely demolished by U10 Gero. The doctor even comments on how this Cyborg is clearly from his creation but it has been losing power for a while now, a similar moment to Yamcha vs C18, and proves to himself that absorbing the enemies' energy was the right choice, before blasting C17 away. Round 2: Goku vs Gero. Goku already knows about his ki-absorbing ability, and this time there is no heart virus to weaken him, so the battle goes on his favour just by using his SSJ1 form. Before he's defeated ,though, Gero showcases that he can still transform like the original A13, but this time it's even more refined , achieving the same power as Perfect Cell after absorbing C18. Goku is still impressed by this, but still destroys Gero with a Dragon Fist (a melee attack to bypass his problems). Round 1: A16 vs A8. This match is a bit inspired by Mystare Fusion's comment on how A16 could have had a more impactful story in the Cell Saga if his role was taken by the pacifist Eighter,now under control of Gero to do his bidding, and that's exactly what is happening here. This fight would take place instead of A16 vs Eleim , with Eleim fighting Son Bra in Round 1 already and Zangya fighting Nekomajin instead of the disqualified Romanesco. During this battle A16 doesn't try to actually harm Eigther, but to break his programming away from Gero's control. Eighter is brought to the brink of his power resource but he's successfully freed ,but before he can give up , Gero activates his self-destrust option to severely injure A16. The U12 participant is still declared the winner but is unable to fight in Round 2, so the tournament happens the same from this point onwards. Over all,I'm pretty proud of all the ideas with Universe would allow to explore,especially with all the versions of the Earth warriors: Gero could marvel at Perfect Cell as the project that could have bee; Goku would be infuriated at seeing his old friend under the control of Gero and even more when he's destroyed without a care by him; the Vargas could try and fail to repair A16 with no avail U9 Bulma could chime in by petition of U12 Trunks; Yamcha's attempts to redeem C17 and C18 could be even more impactful with the scientist that has a chance to control them...
Wow ,I wrote a bible here.
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