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Post by bk81 on Oct 19, 2017 17:08:14 GMT
I'm skeptical too... Kakaroth having such a big advantage over anybody, and not boasting about it? Nope. Don't buy it. Not until official confirmation. About the incongruence of Naurb and him, one died and another din't: maybe the Heloite aimed for the heart, but is their heart in the same spot as a Saiyan's? That Laser is so small that even a few centimeters matter, the line between instant death and something manageable by a Majin-spell. And Kakaroth is a hell of a tank even without it! Welcome! Are you the artist of some specials? Naurb also was shot 2 times, simultaneously. Also, who knows, maybe he will wake up next pages. Not yet! But my time will come... In the meantime I do some illustrations for the novel and stuff (I hope the English translator put them in!), and I work for the Italian Wiki. I wouldn't hate if if Kakaroth would be immortal... but I won't jump at conclusions until confirmation. That's why I dislike (because hate is too strong) people who do that and diss other people for not having the same opinion. Until now both sides could be right, and it's fun to speculate. But I would rather like to have agood explanation in the future. I guess Salagir is having much fun reading our discussions...  |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 20, 2017 9:37:42 GMT
With the new page today, people may bring up the u13 immortality and I still think they don't have it. I don't think Kakarot would think about immortality when on Earth. After Roshi, there aren't many people left on Earth to oppose him and we see Kakarot succeded in exterminating the Earth, excluding Yamcha and Tien. He may have overheard the dragon balls before on Earth and Krillin and co. probably tried using Shenron but failed. If Kakarot did have immortality why didn't he tell Raditz during their training montage/mission? Why was Raditz concerned about him after tanking the destruction of a planet? Why hasn't Kakarot bragged yet of his advantage in the tournament by being a immortal? Its becaus he's not. The only way I can see that being possible is if he wished for it on Namek but I think both Frieza and the saiyans failed on Namek to even use the dragon balls. Kakarot surviving so many lethal attacks is because of dumb luck and saiyan's insane durability. After impaled by a special beam cannon both Goku and Raditz lived a few minutes afterwards. Vegeta and his brutal beating on Earth, against Recoome, against Frieza and still lived for a few moments after shot in the heart. And Kakarot shot in the heart only shows that Majins can't be killed by anything physical but probably just blown up completely. Every majin in dbz only died by being completely eradicated. Spoopivich, Yamu, Pui Pui, Yakon, Vegeta, Dabura was eaten. We even see Dabura after being impaled by Cell was still alive for several matches. The Cell jrs maybe an exception but they were decapitated so I don't see how they could walk away from that lol. So what we see here is not immortality but the additions of being a majin. I can see a combination of Saiyan durability, Kakarots general insanity and love of pain, and being a majin making it entirely possible for him to basically shrug off a laser shot through the heart. The one thing i find that adds credence to the ol' Kakarot is immortal theory is how he not only survived being fisted by Vegeta, but Raditz was completely casual about it when he took him back to their universes area ("Oh well, he laid one on you") and then they leave him there bleeding out, which he wakes up from under his own power and then just requests a healer. Honestly i thought they'd need to beg a senzu bean to heal that kind of damage. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 2, 2017 7:56:38 GMT
majin naurb died when shot through the heart, majin dabura who is not only a majinized character but also a demon was paralized and unable to move for hours before buu healed him with a bribe, where as kakarot was like "LOL! time to fight still!"
Majin vegeta was also ko'd by an attack.
The difference between spopo and kakarot is the type of injury. spopo had his neck twisted around, but it was still present. Naurb was shot by the same weapon as kakrot but died. why were 2 out of 3 majins killed or paralized, but 1 remains up and active.
Dabura of all people being a demon should have shrugged off an attack but didn't. Brute force is the type of damage majins shrug off, but seemingly can't when blown up or damaged by a piercing attack. All but 1.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 2, 2017 8:08:35 GMT
majin naurb died when shot through the heart, majin dabura who is not only a majinized character but also a demon was paralized and unable to move for hours before buu healed him with a bribe, where as kakarot was like "LOL! time to fight still!" Majin vegeta was also ko'd by an attack. The difference between spopo and kakarot is the type of injury. spopo had his neck twisted around, but it was still present. Naurb was shot by the same weapon as kakrot but died. why were 2 out of 3 majins killed or paralized, but 1 remains up and active. Dabura of all people being a demon should have shrugged off an attack but didn't. Brute force is the type of damage majins shrug off, but seemingly can't when blown up or damaged by a piercing attack. All but 1. My shot explaining each of the four. Naurb's durability was significantly less than that of a Saiyan, a shot to the heart in his case, two actually, was guaranteed death. Kakarotto's shot was only a single one, but either Saiyans have increased durability, or Kakarotto specifically since he went "LEROY JENKINS" in his planetary purges, hardening his body so to say. Dabura... you mean the shot from Cell's special beam cannon?  To quote TFS Vegeta: "He has, a Fff*cking hole in his chest." Legit, a giant hole like that might have vaporized his heart or something, he only survived because of magic slowing his own blood flow. Now Spopovich is tricky, he's a Majinized Human, yet even in DB logic, a 180 degree neck twist means instant death. And his huge muscle/mass might imply an increased durability (not enough for the neck twist, but a factor, like Kakarotto's heart shot). Otherwise, recall U18 Vegeta fisting Kakarotto and he was only unconscious until he somehow woke up again and summoned a healer? A tinier hole like the one from the laser wouldn't do shit compared to the giant fist that should've been a blunt force to cause trauma. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 2, 2017 8:20:25 GMT
Naurbs still a majin. Even goku died from the same injury, a hole in his body that destroyed his vitals.
If the majin curse protects from wounds like a piercing, it should work on all races due to being magic. and 2 out 3 majins were either dead or paralyzed.
Then theres u13 vegeta. Vegeta was willing to kill 2 saiyans for minor infractions in u18, and this vegeta is even more fucking sadistic, as he's the emperor of the universe, why even keep a guy around who isn't shy about wanting to kill him, when he killed nappa for losing, and was going to kill goku for simply challanging him.
Maybe he's immortal, other wise he'd end up like cui. Vegeta has killed for less, and kakarot has openly defied vegeta before, as he said he'd killu13 vegeta after u18 vegeta.
u13 vegeta after kakarot woke up after the namekian judge thought kakarot was dead said "awake already? what a pain..." or something.
Now, keep in mind this does not cement he's immortal, kakarot could just be lucky, but it's weird how naurb died and kakarot didn't. Its a shot to the heart, not a mere flesh wound.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 2, 2017 8:30:33 GMT
Naurbs still a majin. Even goku died from the same injury, a hole in his body that destroyed his vitals. If the majin curse protects from wounds like a piercing, it should work on all races due to being magic. and 2 out 3 majins were either dead or paralyzed. Then theres u13 vegeta. Vegeta was willing to kill 2 saiyans for minor infractions in u18, and this vegeta is even more fucking sadistic, as he's the emperor of the universe, why even keep a guy around who isn't shy about wanting to kill him, when he killed nappa for losing, and was going to kill goku for simply challanging him. Maybe he's immortal, other wise he'd end up like cui. Vegeta has killed for less, and kakarot has openly defied vegeta before, as he said he'd killu13 vegeta after u18 vegeta. u13 vegeta after kakarot woke up after the namekian judge thought kakarot was dead said "awake already? what a pain..." or something. Now, keep in mind this does not cement he's immortal, kakarot could just be lucky, but it's weird how naurb died and kakarot didn't. Its a shot to the heart, not a mere flesh wound. Ah crap, forgot about the legendary Goku's first death by beam. Hm... Majin Naurb took two small lasers to the heart but Goku took the Special Beam cannon to the stomach iirc. For sure against a relative weakling he'd died instantly but it hit him in the gut, I think that's a decent explanation. I sided with the idea that he kept the clown because he needed a decent rival, but it is true he could've kept him because he can't kill him, however, why didn't they just make a trip to a desolate planet and destroy his pod, trapping him for good? Yeah awake already, I can see why the immortal theory was brought up with that line, but I interpreted as "oh, already awake now? Damn, I could've had a few more minutes of peace." Hell, maybe Naurb didn't die, he's either faking or he just got knocked out and he'll rise again in the next few pages... or next few scenes given we're gonna get a special splitting this revolt. Still, it's crazy enough that it actually works. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 4, 2017 5:25:50 GMT
I dunno man. Naurb was downed immediately, and kakarotto was not. Spopo even got up immediately in the manga. Piercing damage has shown to down 2 out of 3 majins, so unless there is some other explanation, like a heart implant, or naurb playing possum, or xxi using off screen necromancy, or kakarot was healed off screen with a senzu he pulled out of his glove, there is something different about kakarotto than the other dead or at least paralyzed majins.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 4, 2017 5:48:45 GMT
I dunno man. Naurb was downed immediately, and kakarotto was not. Spopo even got up immediately in the manga. Piercing damage has shown to down 2 out of 3 majins, so unless there is some other explanation, like a heart implant, or naurb playing possum, or xxi using off screen necromancy, or kakarot was healed off screen with a senzu he pulled out of his glove, there is something different about kakarotto than the other dead or at least paralyzed majins. After examining this page, I think my answer would be Naurb faking his death. Kakarot looked like he legitimately collapsed, but only when Goten revealed he wasn't dead did Kakarot jump back fighting the Helior. I think... shit, what is the guy's name? ["Vegeta knock off?"]... I think this Helior noted that shooting the heart wasn't able to kill the Majin enemy, and we might get another panel witnessing Naurb rising again. Unfortunately, it'll take at least another chapter if not a few pages to get our answers. Damn. Bold: I laughed harder than I should have. Kudos. |
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Post by Argelios on Nov 4, 2017 18:18:15 GMT
I don't think Naurb faked his death.
Maybe he is a good actor and rolled his eyes up.... but its unlikely. He could have killed the other Heloites when they turned their backs.
For Kakarot... the white eyes are because of the shock, but after that he wakes up again with a smile in his face. The thing is: the Heloite mentions it to be impossible.
Kakarot's durability can be explained in two ways:
-Immortality.
-Saiyan race durability
Nothing to do with Majinization, the guy already survived a hole in his chest without it.
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Post by Gogeta on Nov 4, 2017 18:33:18 GMT
Personally I think everyone is overthinking it. Saiyans are already naturally durable species capable of withstanding tremendous punishment (Vegeta surviving a cushioned God's Blade and fighting on despite profuse blood loss, Kakarot (in Oozaru) being able to fire off a blast to destroy Helior's planetary ring despite taking an Ultra Waver and still being injured prior, etc...) and Kakarot is probably more so exceptional in this regard as his rough time on Earth toughened him up and made him capable of surviving attacks that should put him out of commission. And we already know the Majin boost offers some degree of resilience.
So Saiyan Durability + Kakarot's Resilience + Majin Boost = Capable of Surviving a Would Be Fatal Heart Shot and be Back Up Almost Instantly whereas Heliorite Lesser Durability + Majin Boost = Its Not Enough to Compensate For a Fatal Heart Shot and thus Dead Narub.
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 5, 2017 3:08:59 GMT
Hmm. So far, some good ideas out there, but why would vegeta permit another saiyan to even be a ssj at this point? Kakarot is the only one in his universe who is even close to his power, and keeping a ssj henchmen is a nice idea, but that ssj henchmen is out right saying he'll kill him if given the chance, when u18 vegeta had no problem killing nappa for simply losing to kakarot, and was going to kill kakarot for simply issuing a challenge to him.
This u13 vegeta has no use for any henchmen, is the strongest saiyan alive and has shown his pure hatred of kakarot just screwing shit up. His reaction to u3 ghost kakarot and his glee when he fucking killed him says quite a bit. Granted he killed radditz and nappa, but took his sweet time killing kakarot, relishing the act as if he had...been deprived of the sweet joy of killing this one saiyan all along.
As for saiyan durability, goku died from a piercing attack, granted he was a fresh low class saiyan with a power less than radditz, but so did vegeta. And even so vegeta was already pulverized by freeza. And that's actually a good point to keep in mind. Trunks on the other hand, is comparable to kakarot in terms of power, and trained his body to the point of being a ussj, and was quite strong. He was shot by a piercing attack and died from it. He was only able to live for a few seconds and died. He did not even so much as get up.
So I'd say trunks being the only one of comparable strength to kakarot, having comparable durability, getting killed without so much as a last hurrah to fight cell and avenge himself or at least wear him down, is almost enough evidence.
So now we have a majin vegeta who is a majin ssj2, a level above kakarot, and also a saiyan full blood majin. He was at nearly full strength and was beat down by buu's punches, and these were not particularly aggressive punches compared to when he goes all out. Repeated strikes can ko a majin saiyan, and it took him out of the picture for a bit. This, in my opinion is less damage than say, having your vital organ destroyed. At least with spopovitch, his neck was still there. Vegetas head was still there. Kakarot having his heart destroyed should at least paralyze him like it did dabura.
And dabura in DBM is my last piece of evidence I offer. Even if naurb is not dead, he is at least paralyzed, and so was majin dabura who was shot through the chest. Piercing damage has been shown to disable or at least kill 2 out of 3 majins. The 3rd one is kakarot.
If he's not immortal, I'd reckon he at least popped a senzu off screen out of his armor or glove, and that is not impossible either.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 5, 2017 4:01:35 GMT
Hmm. So far, some good ideas out there, but why would vegeta permit another saiyan to even be a ssj at this point? Kakarot is the only one in his universe who is even close to his power, and keeping a ssj henchmen is a nice idea, but that ssj henchmen is out right saying he'll kill him if given the chance, when u18 vegeta had no problem killing nappa for simply losing to kakarot, and was going to kill kakarot for simply issuing a challenge to him. This u13 vegeta has no use for any henchmen, is the strongest saiyan alive and has shown his pure hatred of kakarot just screwing shit up. His reaction to u3 ghost kakarot and his glee when he fucking killed him says quite a bit. Granted he killed radditz and nappa, but took his sweet time killing kakarot, relishing the act as if he had...been deprived of the sweet joy of killing this one saiyan all along. As for saiyan durability, goku died from a piercing attack, granted he was a fresh low class saiyan with a power less than radditz, but so did vegeta. And even so vegeta was already pulverized by freeza. And that's actually a good point to keep in mind. Trunks on the other hand, is comparable to kakarot in terms of power, and trained his body to the point of being a ussj, and was quite strong. He was shot by a piercing attack and died from it. He was only able to live for a few seconds and died. He did not even so much as get up. So I'd say trunks being the only one of comparable strength to kakarot, having comparable durability, getting killed without so much as a last hurrah to fight cell and avenge himself or at least wear him down, is almost enough evidence. So now we have a majin vegeta who is a majin ssj2, a level above kakarot, and also a saiyan full blood majin. He was at nearly full strength and was beat down by buu's punches, and these were not particularly aggressive punches compared to when he goes all out. Repeated strikes can ko a majin saiyan, and it took him out of the picture for a bit. This, in my opinion is less damage than say, having your vital organ destroyed. At least with spopovitch, his neck was still there. Vegetas head was still there. Kakarot having his heart destroyed should at least paralyze him like it did dabura. And dabura in DBM is my last piece of evidence I offer. Even if naurb is not dead, he is at least paralyzed, and so was majin dabura who was shot through the chest. Piercing damage has been shown to disable or at least kill 2 out of 3 majins. The 3rd one is kakarot. If he's not immortal, I'd reckon he at least popped a senzu off screen out of his armor or glove, and that is not impossible either. If U13 Vegeta is exactly like U18 Vegeta Saiyan Saga, he would've initially believed that only one Super Saiyan could have appeared, and when he himself turned SS, he thought a low class Saiyan couldn't... hell, we don't know how Kakarot got his Super Saiyan in the first place and we only assumed it was rage towards Vegeta. So yeah, Vegeta didn't know more than one saiyan can go super, he fucked up that time. Then he must have trained to ensure he was on the top of the pecking order, then managed to unlock the second level. This time he kept his mouth shut around Kakarot about how he got SSJ2 You do address an interesting point about Vegeta unleashing his pent up aggression towards even a ghost Kakarot, I would like to defend and say that Kakarot does have some use in the battlefield, he's first to attack, basically a meat shield, or a dummy (this time metaphorically) for Vegeta to see what the enemy is capable of, he wouldn't risk the diplomat Raditz and his advisor Nappa, and he wouldn't want to sully his own hands if he could send a clown in to test the minefield. More points about Vegeta and Trunks dying from a piercing attack, I'd like to think that Frieza wanted to see Vegeta suffer upon death, thus he put enough power into his death beam and Vegeta, unable to do anything, was there withering away to death from his injury. Trunks on the other hand could have been surprised a bit too long to realize Cell's attack, effectively taking it full on... though that doesn't help my side of the debate since Kakarot got pierced by a surprise attack as well. Dabura though could've been written as using Demon Magic slowing down the rate he's bleeding out. Regarding Majin Buu punching (more of a play tap really) Majin SSJ2 Vegeta compared to organ destruction... annnnnd I got nothing for this part. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 9, 2017 6:25:03 GMT
I dunno man. He might be immortal, but he could easily as well not be.
Maybe kakarot can regenerate as long as his butts intact, as goku himself pulled victory after victory out of it.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 9, 2017 7:18:32 GMT
supergojita3 I have some valuable info (sorta) in regards to why Vegeta would allow Kakarotto to do all of his dumb shit:  So... from there we have two possibilities: -Kakarotto is immortal, but Vegeta doesn't know it (this means he has never truly attempted to murder him) -Kakarotto is simply not immortal (and this still means he has never attempted murder, since if he really wanted it, there's nothing to prevent him from doing so) There's clearly some deep, mysterious reason as to why he has tolerated him so much beyond "Uhhh can't kill him becoz immortal". Guess U13 Vegeta truly needs a punching bag, or in this universe, he had some Goku-like moment which led him to spare him, much like the opposite happened in u18.
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 10, 2017 16:58:57 GMT
@genghis
Vegeta says a lot of things. It's possible when he said death, the immortality works, but theres a catch. You "Die" but you regenerate from it. If you are obliterated entirely on a cellular level like buu was, then you regenerate from your soul. Vegetto had an immortal guy in the novel, and he regenerated from nothing.
Vegeta has killed people for less in u18. He killed nappa for losing to goku, and he killed cui for merely suggesting they were rivals and a few other things like challenging him.
He wanted to kill goku for being insubordinate to him, and this u13 kakarotto is 10x as insubordinate. Why not kill him then? He's crazy and almost got his whole universe DQ'd.
The page you dropped is not quite proof of him not being immortal, but something said in the heat of the moment. It's like calling your brother a son of a bitch. It's not quite the cool show off statement you were hoping for, and if he is immortal, we'll look back at this and go "oh. Why did he say that if he's immortal then? I guess he was so mad he didn't quite see the irony of the statement."
Keep in mind, we don't have definitive proof he is immortal, but the circumstantial evidence is there just enough to make it possible and plausible.
Naurb was shot through the heart and died or was paralyzed. Dabura was shot through the heart and didn't die, but was unable to get up, and was paralyzed until he had buu heal him. kakarot was shot through the heart and not only lived, but is still up and fighting. Majin vegeta was downed by play taps from fat buu, and he was not only a full saiyan like kakarotto, but was also a majin who was a ssj2. His durability should be superior, yet was downed by mere punches from a guy, when spopo was able to get up from a neck twist.
2 out 3 majins were downed from piercing damage, yet one was not. It makes you think. When asked about the immortality long ago, instead of saying no, salagir said "we don't know yet". This could all be a red herring, but man, maybe he is.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 10, 2017 18:57:20 GMT
Dunno man. He already said "you're going to get dismembered in front of millions of people". Such statement would already suffice if he was truly immortal and could be said at the heat of the moment. But then saying "I'll have a front seat to YOUR DEATH" right after that is oddly specific and can't be just attributed to the heat of the moment.
Using this heat of the moment (and therefore lack of control due to anger) why not dismember him right away and just wait until he regenerates again?
Also, regenerating from the soul, like you suggested, means he has a higher regeneration level than even Zen Buu. If this is the case, then he would be able to just close/heal 'minor' wounds like all those he has received without issues, yet he has never shown to do so. Regenerating from nothing (literally nothing but a soul) for me is far higher tier than molecular or cellular regeneration, and therefore higher tier than mere dismemberment or piercing.
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 11, 2017 3:33:33 GMT
Dunno man. He already said "you're going to get dismembered in front of millions of people". Such statement would already suffice if he was truly immortal and could be said at the heat of the moment. But then saying "I'll have a front seat to YOUR DEATH" right after that is oddly specific and can't be just attributed to the heat of the moment. Using this heat of the moment (and therefore lack of control due to anger) why not dismember him right away and just wait until he regenerates again? Also, regenerating from the soul, like you suggested, means he has a higher regeneration level than even Zen Buu. If this is the case, then he would be able to just close/heal 'minor' wounds like all those he has received without issues, yet he has never shown to do so. Regenerating from nothing (literally nothing but a soul) for me is far higher tier than molecular or cellular regeneration, and therefore higher tier than mere dismemberment or piercing. AS for kakarotto not getting dismembered, if he is immortal, we don't know how quick his regeneration is. If he was vaporized, he might not regenerate fast enough for his match. I also just don't see u13 putting up with kakrot for long. u18 vegeta was going to kill him for a minor offence of not joining him, why is this u13 vegeta not gone and wrecked him to death and then some? he's less chill than u18 vegeta, and vegeta u18 went for a death blow in his match using a swift punch. Surely u13 vegeta would use lethal force with less hesitation. And the "a ssj hench men would be useful" is a good idea in theory, if we use a u18 vegeta, but u13 vegeta probably wouldn't put up with an insubordinate ssj who has stated many times he'll kill him, and a ssj is the only thing that could over throw him (probably). vegeta is a ssj2 and now ssj3, so one could make the argument he has nothing to fear from a level 1. That's a good point. But, if kakarot went ssj1, couldn't he in theory go ssj2 given the time? or level 3? Why keep a threat around? And we've seen vegeta kill people for very minor infractions, so it seems unlikely he'd keep someone around when he killed cui for annoying him, and nappa for losing to kakarot. He could have killed kakarot after his match when he saw him go ssj oozaruu, and having lost he was of no use, and also heard him threaten to kill him. I realize this is all circumstantial evidence, and with an infinite amount of universes, it could all be luck that he didn't die yet, and that's really all it is. Even though naurb and dabura were either dead or paralyzed after getting piercing damage to the heart, kakarot might have had cybernetic implants and his heart is not in the same place any more, who knows? I'm just going to roll with immortality, because rule of cool I guess. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 6, 2018 1:46:10 GMT
Kakarotto's non-immortality is pretty much 95% confirmed now. He himself was surprised about not dying by Vegeta's impalement:  At this point, Kakarotto's immortality would be nothing but a de-facto brainfart. Not only he's unable to regenerate, re-spawn or whatever, but he can't even do cliché villain gloating such as "hur hur I'M IMMORTAL!!" like Zamasu, so it doesn't even serve for dramatic purposes. Then there's also the new yet to be translated episode 127 (courtesy of google):  Raditz basically gave a medical estimation saying he would survive that "mortal impalement" at least for a couple hours. Yet he was only half a match unconscious. Raditz also showed serious concerns Vegeta would kill both of them after coming back. This was the main reason he decided to bribe the U9 Old Kai. |
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Post by bk81 on Jan 12, 2018 16:54:14 GMT
Problem is, most of the fans of the Immortality don't consider the novel, ("I don't like it, so not canon"), so how's the situation without it? Ambiguous at best, right?
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Post by Xeno Black on Jan 12, 2018 20:13:39 GMT
Truthfully I am fine whether Kakarot is immortal or not. If he is, that awesome. If not, that also cool. Long as he remains to be a unrepentant psychopath with a sweet tooth for blood and booty, I am happy in the end.
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