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Post by Jaquan on Aug 19, 2016 15:40:38 GMT
Yes you read that right. After small discussion in GT topic I asked myself this seemingly random question. Is the power of Super Sayian the force of Good or the Evil power? Personally I slowly begin to shift towards seeing it as an Evil power. In the end the emotions one have to feel to unlock it are far from noble. Hatred, anger, desperation, urge to take revenge. It's not a power born from desire to protect. Or at least we never saw it being born from it. Also both levels of Super Sayian seem to enhance those negative feelings. Goku managed to control himself rather quickly but Gohan needed solid shock to came back to his senses and even then his desire to fight seems unnatural for him.
Also that would explain why good natured Sayians of Universe 6 never reached this form. Whole concept behind it was foreign for them as they behaved like noble warriors would. Fighting without hate and not allowing rage to blind them.
So what are your thoughts? Good or Evil? And please try to back up your statements. After all it's hardly a discussion when all we exchange is "Yes" or "No"
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Post by Archon on Aug 19, 2016 18:28:50 GMT
I don't think it's good or evil. Just because something may be born from something considered a negative emotion doesn't mean it's evil especially desperation. Not to mention it's not even neccesarily unlocked by emotion alone. Goten and Kid Trunks unlocked the power as an almost product of their heritage instead of through training or a dangerous situation (hence why Vegeta found it it frustrating).
So in the end I'd say neither good or evil.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 19, 2016 20:15:29 GMT
I don't think it's good or evil. Just because something may be born from something considered a negative emotion doesn't mean it's evil especially desperation. Not to mention it's not even neccesarily unlocked by emotion alone. Goten and Kid Trunks unlocked the power as an almost product of their heritage instead of through training or a dangerous situation (hence why Vegeta found it it frustrating). So in the end I'd say neither good or evil. I try to not think about those two. Especially since Trunks is unlikely to fall under "Concieved after his father went SSJ" theory since well I don't think Geets would keep his mouth shut if he already achieved it. Out of three who achieved the form "on screen" every single one did it through the anger mixed with hatred. I assume similar thing happened to Goten and Trunks at some point. Goten knew the basics from Chi-chi and since he and Trunks did spar (In manga Goten calls it playing Showdown) I do think the emotion part is needed. In fact I believe it's the only requirement since otherwise... We'd have to assume Goten and Trunks were at Namek's Goku level... When they were less than 7/8 years old and no matter what I refuse to accept this theory. Ok now... As of my point of view I believe being born from negative emotion does make the power leaning towards the evil side. But what mostly gets me to state that is how it affects the user. Using Vegeta's own words  In other words... It turns the user into mad beast drunk on violence and bloodshed. It's not enough to make them turn on their allies but enough to make even Kind souls like Goku and Gohan violent and prone to cruelty. Yes in case of Goku it lasted only couple minutes but I believe it had more to do with the fact his true nature was not one of typical Sayian. If merely getting the form enhances aspect we consider evil doesn't it makes the form itself an evil tool? Gah and now I wonder about something else more rooted in DBS... Maybe regular SSJ and God forms are two sides of the same coin? Yin and Yang? One born from negativity while other from positive? Heh nope. That's a too far of a stretch even for me. Although I could try and backup this theory a bit. |
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Post by Archon on Aug 19, 2016 20:45:13 GMT
I don't think it's good or evil. Just because something may be born from something considered a negative emotion doesn't mean it's evil especially desperation. Not to mention it's not even neccesarily unlocked by emotion alone. Goten and Kid Trunks unlocked the power as an almost product of their heritage instead of through training or a dangerous situation (hence why Vegeta found it it frustrating). So in the end I'd say neither good or evil. I try to not think about those two. Especially since Trunks is unlikely to fall under "Concieved after his father went SSJ" theory since well I don't think Geets would keep his mouth shut if he already achieved it. Out of three who achieved the form "on screen" every single one did it through the anger mixed with hatred. I assume similar thing happened to Goten and Trunks at some point. Goten knew the basics from Chi-chi and since he and Trunks did spar (In manga Goten calls it playing Showdown) I do think the emotion part is needed. In fact I believe it's the only requirement since otherwise... We'd have to assume Goten and Trunks were at Namek's Goku level... When they were less than 7/8 years old and no matter what I refuse to accept this theory. Ok now... As of my point of view I believe being born from negative emotion does make the power leaning towards the evil side. But what mostly gets me to state that is how it affects the user. Using Vegeta's own words In other words... It turns the user into mad beast drunk on violence and bloodshed. It's not enough to make them turn on their allies but enough to make even Kind souls like Goku and Gohan violent and prone to cruelty. Yes in case of Goku it lasted only couple minutes but I believe it had more to do with the fact his true nature was not one of typical Sayian. If merely getting the form enhances aspect we consider evil doesn't it makes the form itself an evil tool? Gah and now I wonder about something else more rooted in DBS... Maybe regular SSJ and God forms are two sides of the same coin? Yin and Yang? One born from negativity while other from positive? Heh nope. That's a too far of a stretch even for me. Although I could try and backup this theory a bit. Just from what we've seen of this I wouldn't neccesarily call it drunk on violence and bloodshed. It's more if like when a fighter is in the zone and totally focused on the fight and running off adrenaline. They may react and do things they wouldn't normally do because they're so focused on the fight. And Super Saiyan just makes it more of a cutting edge focus. |
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Post by jkrevan on Aug 21, 2016 17:26:06 GMT
As a principle, yes, SSJ is an evil transformation, but its up to the user to determine if he will control the transformation, or the transformation will control him
Goku seemed to be mostly on control by the end of his fight with Freeza, and as shown on the panel of the manga posted above, Vegeta let himself be carried by the transformation, which could be another reason why he was always a step behind goku.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 2, 2016 21:03:26 GMT
It definitely increases aggression, but does it drastically alter personality of a user? I would argue that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta's core personalities weren't altered at all. Vegeta has always been a sadistic fighter. Even with his aggression enhanced you can hardly tell the difference between the old Vegeta and the Super Saiyan Vegeta. Whereas with Goku and Gohan's reactions to Freeza and Cell are entirely normal for a person to experience. If someone tortures your friends and loved ones with a smile on their faces and get delight it could cause a normally level headed or gentle person to lash out and want revenge or for them to want to make them suffer in return. Neither Goku nor Gohan seemed to lose themselves unlike say the Great Ape form. During their respective battles with Freeza and Cell they showcase other parts of their personality. Usually Evil Super forms in anime have the character go berserker rage where they'll kill friend and foe alike and all traits of the normal personality are suppressed to the point of being non-existent.
Goku upon first transformation told Gohan to leave for his safety (Freeza threaten to kill Gohan next after Krillin was killed). It showed Goku's priority was to his son before he even thought about dealing with Freeza, despite being in raged out state. Gohan saved his friends' lives and made sure they had senzu before going after Cell. The Super Saiyan transformations increase aggression, but intent of the person is still up to them. Anger and hatred can be negative emotions they can be spun as positive emotions as well. I don't think it can be classified as an evil power or a good power.
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Post by supernekomajin on Oct 28, 2016 23:38:41 GMT
I don't think it's good or evil. It's just the power of the ultimate warrior, and warriors come in all alignments, even if DBZ's evil warriors are bitches most of the time.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 29, 2016 2:11:24 GMT
I think it depends on the user. It might be born from "negative" emotions, but once unlocked, it's up to the user whether or not it's evil. Vegeta, as of his initial transformation, was still pretty "evil," his primary motivation being to kill Goku (Goku being SSJ first just added fuel to the fire). Goku, on the other hand, wanted to save Piccolo and Gohan first, beat the piss out of Frieza second. Even after all that, he STILL gave Frieza a second chance after it was clear who the victor was. Goten and Trunks got it... somehow, and still behave like kids when SSJ, not vicious little monsters.
Broly, for his part, is basically anime Hulk. He's an extreme example of what happens when you can't control SSJ.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 29, 2016 2:13:09 GMT
SSJ transformation is not any more evil than using steroids. You don't become "evil" when you take steroids, but your strength, durability, stamina and irritability/aggression increases.
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 29, 2016 8:58:31 GMT
For Goten and kid Trunks it was a power level thing, because their dads had obtained so much power that their children were able to to go SS at young ages we have no idea how kid Trunks did it but we saw Goten being trained by Chichi and getting hit then going SS.
I think it takes more than just anger to achieve it, it also involves the level that Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Gohan were at.
Then you have to mix that with an emotional outburst, Goku was pissed, Vegeta was upset, Future Trunks was sad/angry etc.
Gohan already had an anger problem from the beginning so knowing that his was unlocked through rage was obvious.
All in all I don't think it's evil I just think we haven't seen a better way- hold up Goku Jr. From the GT movie gained it through just sadness if I remember correctly.
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 16, 2016 1:59:17 GMT
Personally I see it as neutral. It depends on the individual whether the power of SSJ will be used for good or evil. XD
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Post by Veya on Nov 16, 2016 17:19:53 GMT
Saying that Super Saiyan is evil is the same as saying anger itself is evil, since it is largely triggered by rage, and while anger is usually viewed as a "negative" emotion it is by no means evil, emotions are by nature neutral, it is more about how you direct each emotion, Freeza for example found joy in torturing people for the hell of it, but the fact he was feeling a positive emotion has no effect on the fact his actions were evil. I would say that Super Saiyan is by nature chaotic, since it requires a huge burst of unbridled emotion to happen, but to say it is "evil" is pushing it. hold up Goku Jr. From the GT movie gained it through just sadness if I remember correctly. Emotions are a lot more complex than that, and you can feel more than one base emotion at once, if anything, sadness over the loss of something can very easily lead to a lot of anger, anger on yourself for not being there to prevent the loss, anger on whatever caused the loss in first place, to say that Goku Jr was extremelly angry at himself for lacking the power to fight off the boar guy is probably the most accurate. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 16, 2016 18:43:40 GMT
Wish there was a neutral option. Like Genghis said, it's just like being on steroids. What the user does with that power is a different story.
SS enables strength. User decides good or evil.
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Post by Jaquan on Nov 17, 2016 10:03:15 GMT
Wish there was a neutral option. Like Genghis said, it's just like being on steroids. What the user does with that power is a different story. SS enables strength. User decides good or evil. See I didn't include the Neutral just because I felt people would be too afraid of taking sides. Similar with the Bra topic where majority picked neutral option because it was the safest one. I get the analogy but still... Energy born from rage and anger (at least in the manga up till Goten and Trunks), transformation which basically increases user ferocity and makes them more prone to cruelty with each stage (this is also my personal reason as of why I don't really feel SSJ3 is true level up and more of what USSJ was for regular Super Sayian). But I get and respect your points |
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Post by Bartek on Dec 11, 2016 11:17:28 GMT
Yes, SSJ is the power of evil, Goku and Gohan who were good, became neutral pricks when turning into a SSJ1 and SSJ2 (Both Freeza and Cell pissed in their "pants" in fear)
So let's us rejoice Freeza killed the saiyans, we could've have over 9000 SSJs
Hence why SSJ Goku (Freeza saga) and SSJ2 Gohan (Cell games) are neutral in my game
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 11, 2016 22:26:43 GMT
Wish there was a neutral option. Like Genghis said, it's just like being on steroids. What the user does with that power is a different story. SS enables strength. User decides good or evil. See I didn't include the Neutral just because I felt people would be too afraid of taking sides. Similar with the Bra topic where majority picked neutral option because it was the safest one. I get the analogy but still... Energy born from rage and anger (at least in the manga up till Goten and Trunks), transformation which basically increases user ferocity and makes them more prone to cruelty with each stage (this is also my personal reason as of why I don't really feel SSJ3 is true level up and more of what USSJ was for regular Super Sayian). But I get and respect your points See my problem with this though is anger can potentially make anyone more cruel. Goku is good example. We've seen him do 180 even in DB when he gets pissed. Let's face it he went after Tambourine it was pure revenge quest that turned into saving the world because Piccolo turned out to be a dangerous megalomaniac with aspirations for world conquest. The attitude wasn't really different from Goku's mindset when Freeza killed Krillin later. Even during the fight Goku's core personality remained the same. When Freeza begged for his life Goku despite being angry and chastising him for begging when he never spared anyone else still shared some of his energy with him. In at least the manga when Goku thought he killed Freeza after he tried to kill him one last time he had a remorseful expression over it. If it was a evil power that the manga would have made more of big deal about it and how every time the user uses it they risk losing themselves to it more and more or we would have seen characters like Goku and Gohan attack their friends for interfering in their fights or not caring about people around them. Those are usually the telltale signs of a specifically designed evil power up in Shonen genre. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 0:26:13 GMT
I didn't vote because I think there needs to be a third option covering some grey area. Not because I find it a 'safe' choice, but because not everything is black and white.
Rage and anger are not in and of themselves evil traits, however they are easier for evil people to utilise.
Goku, no matter how purely good natured he is had every bloody right gaining gettin pissed the fuck off when he first attained SSJ, which is healthy as you can be if you ask me.
Had Goku not gotten mad at the sight of his childhood friend exploding from the inside out, I would question his sanity.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 12, 2016 0:33:35 GMT
I didn't vote because I think there needs to be a third option covering some grey area. Not because I find it a 'safe' choice, but because not everything is black and white. Rage and anger are not in and of themselves evil traits, however they are easier for evil people to utilise. Goku, no matter how purely good natured he is had every bloody right gaining gettin pissed the fuck off when he first attained SSJ, which is healthy as you can be if you ask me. Had Goku not gotten mad at the sight of his childhood friend exploding from the inside out, I would question his sanity. Exactly. That is why I don't think this power can be qualified as good or evil. |
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