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Post by snowflake on May 1, 2017 12:15:56 GMT
What are you're opinions on this subject? The special obviously wasn't pointless as we got to see some great covers and great art and colors by Holken, but plot-wise YMMV.
My opinions for best plotted/most character-driven specials have been Universe 3, Universe 7, and some of Universe 16. Universe 8 has a been an interesting sidebar, much like Universe 13, but doesn't really change how you perceive the characters in the tournament. Most of the others have been pretty obvious in depicting "what REALLY happened," sometimes giving us good art, sometimes...not...
Anyway, it makes you wonder when a limited resource project like DBM suddenly decides to devote precious time and pages to Cell or Bojack slaughtering the Z-squad when there could be more revealing or entertaining chapters in other universes...
And also, people complaining about the lack of Freeza love from Salagir should notice that Freeza's universe has gotten 4 specials so far. That's a lot of love for "Krillin killed Vegeta, thus ensuring Freeza's victory on Namek."
Universe 11 desperately needs a special, as does Universe 9. Universe 3 and 7 and 13 could have several more chapters as well.
I feel some of these specials could have been "tell, not show" panels like the exposition some of the mini-comics have started to give.
What do you think?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2017 13:33:40 GMT
Salagir adresses most of your points in this post: I have to remind, about specials, that I'm extremely limited in their creation. And it was way worst at the beginning of DBM. I wasn't that known at the time and having someone being ready to draw an entire chapter for free isn't easy. I came by: - people who actually wanted to draw their thing, not mine (in this case it's great, but it's not dbm), their universe, their story of "Nice Freeza" and "Trunks from the future getting back to help the team against a greater menace, like Buu's dad" . - people who draw one draft and then never ever replied . - people who did 3 pages and then nicely said they couldn't continue (back to school / seeing it's more work than imagined / wanting to do something else) . - people who can't draw and don't know it . Believe me, in 8 years of DBM, I began things with about 100 cartoonists. ONE. HUNDRED. This isn't a joke (I just counted the number of folders in my "Dessinateurs" directory. And some don't have a folder) The very very few who agree to draw a chapter always, always have 2 demands: - that the chapter must be EXTRA short . - that it's ONLY fight / with super saiyans / must be about U13 vegeta against Freeza on Namek / etc This is why so many special are very rushed. I was reducing the number of pages like crazy. Made shortcut, summaries (like in the first Broly special). This is why some chapters are nothing else than a bad guys beating good guys. This is why no universe 9 chapter exists. Already 3 different cartoonists did the 3 first pages and stopped. U9 Will be long and big. No ones dare beginning that. And there's not even super saiyans. Thanks to DBM being big and (sometime) lured by the possibility to have publicity, more people come to help and are less afraid of long chapters, even if it's not all SSJ fight. And I'm super lucky to be able to work with extraordinary talents in DBM, special and not special and even small minicomics. You saw the result, whatever you can say on the current chapter, you can't say it's ugly... (current chapter that is in 2 parts of 10 pages each because both cartoonists didn't want to have to much to do. And me reducing my text and removing panels several times... For example I would have like to put a few more punches between SSJ Bra and Gohan before he goes "Bra, no!") Many specials took 3 years to be done. Yep, 3 years for 24 pages. Remember that, when some said Gogeta Jr and Asura were slackers. They certainly are not.(and again, not paid) Today, I have no complete special to show you. I have no idea what we'll show next time. Bra's chapter wasn't a choice: it was the only one available. Some chapter are being worked on. Since years for some. Some are amazingly beautiful and in full colors. Some are... hu... way less good. But any cartoonist who is willing to give his/her time for DBM is already a bliss. So in conclusion... Please everyone... remember the team hard work... because you rage in the comments (oh I think I was totally off-topic....)
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Post by snowflake on May 1, 2017 21:09:40 GMT
Yeah, I get that, and I guess my whining for U9 and U11 specials bled out a little bit.
At the same time, I'm also disappointed in the reveal of...nothing. And that's not really the fault of the artist, or the constraints of DBM.
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Post by Xeno Black on May 2, 2017 3:53:46 GMT
Yeah, I get that, and I guess my whining for U9 and U11 specials bled out a little bit. At the same time, I'm also disappointed in the reveal of...nothing. And that's not really the fault of the artist, or the constraints of DBM. I completely agree man. These two universes need a special asap, though universe 15 can die for all I care about.
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Post by Griffith on May 2, 2017 11:05:32 GMT
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on May 2, 2017 14:40:01 GMT
The specials where it's "Normal DBZ but X Villain wins" are always super-boring and contrived. I usually don't bother reading them until they're over and I can just skim through them.
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Post by fooshin on May 2, 2017 15:07:09 GMT
I'd say the most revealing and consequential specials are u5 and u9s. I got the leaked versions and they are mind blowing. Wow!
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Post by Solus on May 3, 2017 10:29:59 GMT
I'd say the most revealing and consequential specials are u5 and u9s. I got the leaked versions and they are mind blowing. Wow! You don't really want to tell us that you have some information we don't have, do you? Leaked sounds like you could steal them somewhere in the internet before the official release, but as far as I know they are not even produced yet. I think, the most interesting special was that about U3, since it really told a story we didn't know. Both specials of U3, i mean. I also liked the Broly retcons and the one with Cooler because they adjusted some of the weird power scalings and bullshit endings.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 3, 2017 11:12:13 GMT
The specials where it's "Normal DBZ but X Villain wins" are always super-boring and contrived.I usually don't bother reading them until they're over and I can just skim through them. Notable exception for me was U4. First U13 special (Raditz visits earth) sort of falls under this classification, even if many things around the earth weren't Normal DB/DBZ anymore. Notable examples of this done very wrong are the immemorial Bojack special, Cell special, and the first Broly special. "Gohan vs. Dabura" was also pretty piss poor although it doesn't qualify as "evil winz". DBsuper certainly handled this a lot better. This could also have justified a SSJ2 Trunks in DBM. SSJ2 Trunks with long Rambo hair would have looked better than his depiction in DBSuper. Then you could even have ULTRA SSJ2 TRUNKS. Man, I know it must be hard to do a fan-manga at this release consistency... But I think the reason this happens (at least inside the forum) is because the bar has already been set too high by certain specials... All U3, Gast specials, U1, First part of Helior special (second part truly felt like filler tbh. it just didn't have the punch and grittiness of the first one).
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Post by kinnikuman on May 3, 2017 14:37:53 GMT
What are you're opinions on this subject? The special obviously wasn't pointless as we got to see some great covers and great art and colors by Holken, but plot-wise YMMV. My opinions for best plotted/most character-driven specials have been Universe 3, Universe 7, and some of Universe 16. Universe 8 has a been an interesting sidebar, much like Universe 13, but doesn't really change how you perceive the characters in the tournament. Most of the others have been pretty obvious in depicting "what REALLY happened," sometimes giving us good art, sometimes...not... Anyway, it makes you wonder when a limited resource project like DBM suddenly decides to devote precious time and pages to Cell or Bojack slaughtering the Z-squad when there could be more revealing or entertaining chapters in other universes... And also, people complaining about the lack of Freeza love from Salagir should notice that Freeza's universe has gotten 4 specials so far. That's a lot of love for "Krillin killed Vegeta, thus ensuring Freeza's victory on Namek." Universe 11 desperately needs a special, as does Universe 9. Universe 3 and 7 and 13 could have several more chapters as well. I feel some of these specials could have been "tell, not show" panels like the exposition some of the mini-comics have started to give. What do you think? I consider Chewy's Db 3/9 to be cannon until S-man says differently www.amilova.com/en/comics-manga/2504/dbm-u3--u9%3A-una-tierra-sin-goku.html
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Post by snowflake on May 3, 2017 14:51:38 GMT
Going by a homemade scoring system, Specials 56, 54, 41 were at the top of my list, with 20, 25, 29, 30, 37, 45, and 50 rounding out the rest of my top ten.
My top three (in no particular order):
56 - The Last Two Survivors - Great art? Vivid color? Character interactions? Great fights? This is awesome.
54 - Son Bra's Little Problem - I think this special will stand the test of time. Amazing art and color, plus great characterization and fights plus the goofball humor which DBZ is known for, and DBM often lacks.
41 - Collapse of an Empire - If you don't like the art, you don't like different things. Astonishing art and story.
The rest (in no particular order):
20 - Visions of the Future - The art is not a DBZ ideal, but is more than serviceable. The story is great, giving insight on Saiyans from a DBM perspective.
25 - Deus Ex Machina - Short but sweet. Great art (but different!) and an interesting story.
29 - Two Great Heroes - The art has only slight technical flaws, and is close to a DBZ ideal. The story is astonishing but engrossing.
30 - Puppet Monster versus Puppet Warriors - Same as above.
37 - Quest on Namek, Without Vegeta! - The art is not DBZ, but succeeds IMO because it doesn't try to be. The story premise is great because of that one little change...
45 - The Rebirth of Majin Buu - The art is almost the paragon of DBZ fanart. And also, a great story! Humanizes an otherwise incomprehensible villain.
50 - Two Brothers - TBH, I liked Johan Dark's art better than Ouv's. Ouv is good but inconsistent, and his original characters look better than the fan characters. Who knows if that was rushing or not. The story is 5 star though. Kakarotto becomes a true Freeza minion.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on May 4, 2017 14:47:21 GMT
I can agree with that Genghis Khan.
The one thing I enjoyed about DBS was how they handled Future Trunks handled his own Buu Saga. I can realistic see Trunks training non-stop to protect the peace in his timeline. Especially considering he's pretty much the only one left who can. Plus, it really highlights what we all like about Trunks. His pragmatic way of dealing with foes like Frieza and not wasting time allowing them to achieve MAX POWAH. I like the manga more because it actually shows us how Trunks achieved SSJ2, Supreme Kai's training with the Z-Sword and his eventually death. If the anime included that, I would be very happy, but the version we got was serviceable.
The DBM version tried to be accurate with the timelines matching up, while might sound like a good idea, wasn't really. It's SUPER contrived to make us believe that Future Gohan could defeat Dabura (End-game Cell Saga enemy tier) but not against the Androids. I know you could say Dabura was drained of his energy, but just makes it worse in my opinion. He lost because the plot needed him to lose against Gohan.
Honestly if they just went with "Babadi appeared a few years after Imperfect Cell and Trunks was able to best them due to his non-stop training!" I would have been fine.
I do think the pressure has been raised on Specials to be a certain quality. Some specials have been a hit, some others....NOT so much. I think everyone is waiting for the super humans special, but they won't do it until they find an artist who can replicate early DB. I enjoy the idea about this, but I think people care more about story rather than visuals. Gast was more western style but was still well-received.
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Post by Ashanark on May 4, 2017 17:22:19 GMT
When you read a special in one sitting it's more fun than stretched out over two months (or three, or four), but some still suck anyway: "Cell kills everyone," "Bojack kills everyone," "Future Gohan BS's his way through the Buu saga." So what's the difference?
Salagir said finding artists for specials is difficult because most want to draw fight scenes instead of dialogue. Some of DBM's best fights have been in specials--Goku vs. Cooler (one of my all-time favorites) and Gast vs. Cold--but a lot of the specials that are ONLY combat are boring, like "experiment Bojack" and the second Kakarot/Raditz on Helior one. Not necessarily bad, but boring.
If I look at the specials I like best, they were more character-focused. The first Kakarot/Raditz special was more interesting than the second because it showed the two brothers bonding. To me, the double Goku/Nail special was at its best when it showed the two good guys working as a team or the Ginyus talking to each other, which is why the second part was less exciting. The Bra special, released at a slowed pace at the pinnacle of Bra hate, still had lots of praise for its good character moments, especially for Gohan and Pan. Released at a better time, I think people would agree it's one of the best specials DBM's ever had.
So, conclusion: "bad" specials don't reveal much about the characters. Cell's special told us nothing about what he's like NOW--did he train? Did he get bored? Why'd he bring the one Cell Jr. he brought? What happened to the other ones? Same reason why the second Bojack is better than the first: it didn't tell us much, but it revealed more about Bojack than him slaughtering all the Z-Fighters. This latest U8 special told us basically nothing about Frieza.
"Good" specials don't require twenty pages of people sharing their feelings, but fighting is more interesting if there's more going on than just punches. Gast's specials are action-packed but tell us a lot about how he thinks. Cooler's special showed his relationship with Frieza and Cold.
Finally, the story needs to not suck. Mirai special was so contrived the whole thing fizzled out. The first U16 special (with the strange art style) felt like a big bunch of filler, so it wasn't good either.
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Post by snowflake on May 4, 2017 18:52:10 GMT
When you read a special in one sitting it's more fun than stretched out over two months (or three, or four), but some still suck anyway: "Cell kills everyone," "Bojack kills everyone," "Future Gohan BS's his way through the Buu saga." So what's the difference? Salagir said finding artists for specials is difficult because most want to draw fight scenes instead of dialogue. Some of DBM's best fights have been in specials--Goku vs. Cooler (one of my all-time favorites) and Gast vs. Cold--but a lot of the specials that are ONLY combat are boring, like "experiment Bojack" and the second Kakarot/Raditz on Helior one. Not necessarily bad, but boring. If I look at the specials I like best, they were more character-focused. The first Kakarot/Raditz special was more interesting than the second because it showed the two brothers bonding. To me, the double Goku/Nail special was at its best when it showed the two good guys working as a team or the Ginyus talking to each other, which is why the second part was less exciting. The Bra special, released at a slowed pace at the pinnacle of Bra hate, still had lots of praise for its good character moments, especially for Gohan and Pan. Released at a better time, I think people would agree it's one of the best specials DBM's ever had. So, conclusion: "bad" specials don't reveal much about the characters. Cell's special told us nothing about what he's like NOW--did he train? Did he get bored? Why'd he bring the one Cell Jr. he brought? What happened to the other ones? Same reason why the second Bojack is better than the first: it didn't tell us much, but it revealed more about Bojack than him slaughtering all the Z-Fighters. This latest U8 special told us basically nothing about Frieza. "Good" specials don't require twenty pages of people sharing their feelings, but fighting is more interesting if there's more going on than just punches. Gast's specials are action-packed but tell us a lot about how he thinks. Cooler's special showed his relationship with Frieza and Cold. Finally, the story needs to not suck. Mirai special was so contrived the whole thing fizzled out. The first U16 special (with the strange art style) felt like a big bunch of filler, so it wasn't good either. I agree with almost all of this. I think one of the main takeaways from this recent special is that Shonen manga is hard to pull off correctly. That is, it's hard to balance epicness, fights, character interactions, the entire kayfabe, but then in DBM deliberately INVERT that and have the villains come out on top. And that ruins the kayfabe. Villains, especially bitchy, whiny, lying, asshole-to-his-own-minions villains, are not supposed to win. Vegetto is never supposed to go dark. Even Universe 9, which should be the most intriguing universe, fails to attract artist attention because it focuses on the sidekicks, rather than the main characters.
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Post by kinnikuman on May 5, 2017 13:32:18 GMT
When you read a special in one sitting it's more fun than stretched out over two months (or three, or four), but some still suck anyway: "Cell kills everyone," "Bojack kills everyone," "Future Gohan BS's his way through the Buu saga." So what's the difference? Salagir said finding artists for specials is difficult because most want to draw fight scenes instead of dialogue. Some of DBM's best fights have been in specials--Goku vs. Cooler (one of my all-time favorites) and Gast vs. Cold--but a lot of the specials that are ONLY combat are boring, like "experiment Bojack" and the second Kakarot/Raditz on Helior one. Not necessarily bad, but boring. If I look at the specials I like best, they were more character-focused. The first Kakarot/Raditz special was more interesting than the second because it showed the two brothers bonding. To me, the double Goku/Nail special was at its best when it showed the two good guys working as a team or the Ginyus talking to each other, which is why the second part was less exciting. The Bra special, released at a slowed pace at the pinnacle of Bra hate, still had lots of praise for its good character moments, especially for Gohan and Pan. Released at a better time, I think people would agree it's one of the best specials DBM's ever had. So, conclusion: "bad" specials don't reveal much about the characters. Cell's special told us nothing about what he's like NOW--did he train? Did he get bored? Why'd he bring the one Cell Jr. he brought? What happened to the other ones? Same reason why the second Bojack is better than the first: it didn't tell us much, but it revealed more about Bojack than him slaughtering all the Z-Fighters. This latest U8 special told us basically nothing about Frieza. "Good" specials don't require twenty pages of people sharing their feelings, but fighting is more interesting if there's more going on than just punches. Gast's specials are action-packed but tell us a lot about how he thinks. Cooler's special showed his relationship with Frieza and Cold. Finally, the story needs to not suck. Mirai special was so contrived the whole thing fizzled out. The first U16 special (with the strange art style) felt like a big bunch of filler, so it wasn't good either. I agree with almost all of this. I think one of the main takeaways from this recent special is that Shonen manga is hard to pull off correctly. That is, it's hard to balance epicness, fights, character interactions, the entire kayfabe, but then in DBM deliberately INVERT that and have the villains come out on top. And that ruins the kayfabe. Villains, especially bitchy, whiny, lying, asshole-to-his-own-minions villains, are not supposed to win. Vegetto is never supposed to go dark. Even Universe 9, which should be the most intriguing universe, fails to attract artist attention because it focuses on the sidekicks, rather than the main characters. Again Chewy is doing a great Universe 9. I personally can't wait for each chapter to come out. Heck he even explains how Cold came to power in a way that makes him the most evil SOB around
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Post by Andres on May 5, 2017 16:04:45 GMT
What are you're opinions on this subject? The special obviously wasn't pointless as we got to see some great covers and great art and colors by Holken, but plot-wise YMMV. My opinions for best plotted/most character-driven specials have been Universe 3, Universe 7, and some of Universe 16. Universe 8 has a been an interesting sidebar, much like Universe 13, but doesn't really change how you perceive the characters in the tournament. Most of the others have been pretty obvious in depicting "what REALLY happened," sometimes giving us good art, sometimes...not... Anyway, it makes you wonder when a limited resource project like DBM suddenly decides to devote precious time and pages to Cell or Bojack slaughtering the Z-squad when there could be more revealing or entertaining chapters in other universes... And also, people complaining about the lack of Freeza love from Salagir should notice that Freeza's universe has gotten 4 specials so far. That's a lot of love for "Krillin killed Vegeta, thus ensuring Freeza's victory on Namek." Universe 11 desperately needs a special, as does Universe 9. Universe 3 and 7 and 13 could have several more chapters as well. I feel some of these specials could have been "tell, not show" panels like the exposition some of the mini-comics have started to give. What do you think? I consider Chewy's Db 3/9 to be cannon until S-man says differently www.amilova.com/en/comics-manga/2504/dbm-u3--u9%3A-una-tierra-sin-goku.htmlFirst time I saw this. It was really good!
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Post by Solus on May 9, 2017 17:12:47 GMT
I also saw it the first time. Especially Cooler's Story was very interseting. I wonder if this could be made canon.
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on May 22, 2017 14:31:17 GMT
Best part of the last special was seeing the Ginyu Force in their day to day lives, they've always been a lovable group of villains and those scenes really humanize them. Though I'm not sure how someone can work under Frieza as close and long as Ginyu has and not realize he's an evil bastard who doesn't care about his subordinates until he himself ends up on the receiving end.
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Post by Xeno Black on May 23, 2017 3:38:48 GMT
Best part of the last special was seeing the Ginyu Force in their day to day lives, they've always been a lovable group of villains and those scenes really humanize them. Though I'm not sure how someone can work under Frieza as close and long as Ginyu has and not realize he's an evil bastard who doesn't care about his subordinates until he himself ends up on the receiving end. I think Ginyu has know that Frieza was a evil monster, but never cared about it because he... 1): Admired the frost demon with the utmost respect. 2): Was at the top of the food chain with his position and power granting him the best resources the frost demon empire can allow. Those two reasons were strong enough for Ginyu to turn a blind eye at his masters more disturbing qualities and glorify him as a messiah of sorts. But once he got a taste of the frost demon's wrath and saw his former body's legacy getting thrown down the toilet for being the one responsible for Vunnvenly's destruction, he brutally realized how much of a prick Frieza truly was. At least that is my two cents on this topic.
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