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Post by Griffith on May 14, 2017 11:23:46 GMT
You know what I would consider to be the worst character, Bardock from Universe 3 and how he destroys what made Bardock a great character in the first place. First off, making Bardock surpass King Vegeta himself completely destroys the fact that he's meant to be a worthless nobody. Suddenly you have Bardock the Super Duper Elite who's stronger than King Vegeta himself. It also in turn makes Goku less special, and destroys what made Goku great. Goku's a low class Saiyan, born from a low class Saiyan. He's essentially a nobody. It's one of the main themes in the Saiyan arc, with Goku being the low class Saiyan challenging the Prince of Saiyans. Which is promptly destroyed with Goku's parents being the strongest Saiyans, and Vegeta's father being some weakling king. The next problem is Bardock's physic ability he inherits, this is crucial and the main reason why he survives and succeeds in this time line. It also completely misses the point of it, the ability to see into the future never helps Bardock it never was meant to. It was meant to be irony that Bardock suffered the same as the ones he killed, that he knew the future and was powerless to change it. So, these are the reasons why I consider Bardock to be the worst character in Dragon Ball Multiverse.
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Post by Solus on May 14, 2017 13:15:45 GMT
Be patient. As Raichi annihilates the Saiyans nevertheless, you will see how his future sight will not help him.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 14, 2017 17:26:14 GMT
That's a pretty odd interpretation there. -What made Goku important and strong wasn't being born out of two low class shitheads. I'm surprised anyone would think like that. If anything, in DBM... it's living in earth what made Kakarotto really progress. His parents had little influence beyond genetics. And likewise, it only makes more ironic that both Hanasia and Bardock are badasses, and despite that, U3 Kakarotto is a failure.
Kakarotto in U13, no parents, living on earth, is evil, hangs out with Raditz = Top SSJ1 level Goku in U18, no parents, living on earth, a good guy = SSJ3 level Kakaroto in U3, both parents, Raditz, lives on Vegeta, = Piss poor base form
-Why King Vegeta isn't so strong is very well explained: he sat on his ass since the First Tuffle War was over (this was probably at least a decade or so Freeza decided to turn Saiyans into vassals), while all the rest of saiyans were dying or almost dying in missions. Considering most Saiyans in U3 at the time could still benefit heavily from Zenkais, this is hardly outrageous.
-He was still powerless towards Raichi, he only delayed the inevitable. Thus, the saiyans still learned a lesson. Perhaps worse than with Freeza, as now they're totally kept as slave copies with no personal will. It still serves the same purpose as the original TV special with a longer, and perhaps slower and more painful history. You could argue it's shitty that Bardock didn't have this ability in the rest of the universes but then again this would have little to do with U3 Bardock anyway. This also bears little relevance to the character and more of general developments between universes. In the TV special, he was powerless to do anything with the visions... But even if the visions were not there, he'd still have found out due to finding his dead team on Meat, and getting stomped by Dodoria.
You're just mad a bunch of big monkeys (this was a bit of a copout, and the only valid criticism which for some reason you didn't include, in favor of meaningless or misinterpreted stuff) blew Freeza and Sarbon to smithereens. This is more of a shitty plot or deus ex machina rather than a poor depiction of any character.
For the most part Bardock is depicted correctly. He was disappointed at his son's failure, careless towards them, yet he still respected his mates to some extent. When he knew shit was going down soon he took action, just like in the TV special. 10,000 units is barely stronger than Nappa. Vegeta was twice as strong as that when he came to Earth.
Regardless of these cheap plot devices, I'd say U3 is one of the best (most interesting) concepts.
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Post by snowflake on May 15, 2017 3:38:45 GMT
Main thing we don't understand is how Raichi overpowered Super Saiyan Bardock, Super Saiyan Vegeta, and Brolly.
Random theories off the top of my head:
1. Destron Gas 2. Hatichiyak 3. Frost Demons in Lvl 5 form, including King Cold 4. His Super Shield (surround Brolly in it and push him into the sun with it) 5. King Cold/Cooler and the Sayians wiped each other out, with Raichi mopping up afterward with new SSJ level ghosts
I can see Raichi having spy robots/ghosts overhearing about Bardock's abilities and planning accordingly for them. Dude's an evil genius, and once he knows your moves it's usually game over.
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Post by Solus on May 15, 2017 9:27:38 GMT
Well, it's not that hard to imagine. We know, Raichi has Freezer's Ghost and we know when Freezer died. So at this point in the story Raichi was already stronger than the saiyans.
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Post by hellion on May 15, 2017 15:28:40 GMT
I get why you'd not like him, but I still disagree with your motives. Even in the special Bardock was seen as pretty outstanding for a low class warrior, even being said by some scientists to surpass King Vegeta soon because of all his fighting. Granted in DBM he actually DID surpass the King but he wasn't the only one and even seemed to be weaker than the others who did, which funnily enough makes him even less exceptional than he was during the special. And his psychic powers eventually did fail him and his people because of Raichi taking a massive dump on all of the saiyans, except for Bardock who has been hiding like a rat for years and has been unable to do anything. Personally, the things that I dislike about U3 are mostly Hanasia(everything about her) and how Kakarot seems to have been pretty useless(his own ghost mom's remark is the only thing to suggest that but still). Bardock himself and the overall theme and story are pretty great imo.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 15, 2017 15:44:15 GMT
Main thing we don't understand is how Raichi overpowered Super Saiyan Bardock, Super Saiyan Vegeta, and Brolly.Random theories off the top of my head: 1. Destron Gas 2. Hatichiyak 3. Frost Demons in Lvl 5 form, including King Cold 4. His Super Shield (surround Brolly in it and push him into the sun with it) 5. King Cold/Cooler and the Sayians wiped each other out, with Raichi mopping up afterward with new SSJ level ghosts I can see Raichi having spy robots/ghosts overhearing about Bardock's abilities and planning accordingly for them. Dude's an evil genius, and once he knows your moves it's usually game over. Actually, before we even get to that... how the fuck they defeated Cooler and Cold anyway? Even If the Ginyu squad ganged up on equal numbers of Saiyans, the saiyans would have serious issues (even in ozaru). Freezer was killed in his maximum reduction form with a collective ozaru genkidama. But Cold in 3rd reduction form is already comparable to 100% Freeza. And Cooler always remains on his base form. It certainly would have taken lots of losses and training for the Saiyans to get on that level.
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Post by snowflake on May 15, 2017 17:50:39 GMT
Main thing we don't understand is how Raichi overpowered Super Saiyan Bardock, Super Saiyan Vegeta, and Brolly.Random theories off the top of my head: 1. Destron Gas 2. Hatichiyak 3. Frost Demons in Lvl 5 form, including King Cold 4. His Super Shield (surround Brolly in it and push him into the sun with it) 5. King Cold/Cooler and the Sayians wiped each other out, with Raichi mopping up afterward with new SSJ level ghosts I can see Raichi having spy robots/ghosts overhearing about Bardock's abilities and planning accordingly for them. Dude's an evil genius, and once he knows your moves it's usually game over. Actually, before we even get to that... how the fuck they defeated Cooler and Cold anyway? Even If the Ginyu squad ganged up on equal numbers of Saiyans, the saiyans would have serious issues (even in ozaru). Freezer was killed in his maximum reduction form with a collective ozaru genkidama. But Cold in 3rd reduction form is already comparable to 100% Freeza. And Cooler always remains on his base form. It certainly would have taken lots of losses and training for the Saiyans to get on that level. I don't think Cooler and Cold considered the Saiyans a threat. Remember only Freeza was paranoid and insecure about the Saiyans. Cooler also felt Freeza dying was his own damn fault since he couldn't master his 4th form. Obviously some time passed for Kakarott, Raditz, Vegeta, and Brolly grow into adulthood, in which they were probably fighting some Cold (heh) War and proxy wars with the Frost Demon Empire. Obviously Hatichiyak, if it collected Freeza, was observing the Saiyans right then and there. The only BS fantasy sci-fi explanation I can think of why Raichi didn't end the Saiyans immediately is that Hatichiyak wasn't developed enough to handle ghosts of Freeza's power level. For some random reason, Raichi wasn't ready to move and kill the Saiyans then. Just thought of another interesting thing: Can Raichi "unlock" SSJ transformation in his ghosts like he unlocked 5th form for Freeza? So maybe Vegeta and Brolly didn't have the transformations to begin with, but did upon their death? Who knows, that might be a BS bridge too far. Or maybe they trained with Brolly, who wasn't a brain-damaged idiot in this timeline. Since the Saiyan Empire was still intact, they could analyze how to duplicate Brolly's SSJ transformation he gets simply by genetics.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 15, 2017 18:41:15 GMT
Well, I don't disagree with what you say... but that's still at least 2/4 specials before getting there.
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Post by Ashanark on May 15, 2017 19:27:22 GMT
Actually, before we even get to that... how the fuck they defeated Cooler and Cold anyway? Even If the Ginyu squad ganged up on equal numbers of Saiyans, the saiyans would have serious issues (even in ozaru). Freezer was killed in his maximum reduction form with a collective ozaru genkidama. But Cold in 3rd reduction form is already comparable to 100% Freeza. And Cooler always remains on his base form. It certainly would have taken lots of losses and training for the Saiyans to get on that level. Just thought of another interesting thing: Can Raichi "unlock" SSJ transformation in his ghosts like he unlocked 5th form for Freeza? So maybe Vegeta and Brolly didn't have the transformations to begin with, but did upon their death? Who knows, that might be a BS bridge too far. Or maybe they trained with Brolly, who wasn't a brain-damaged idiot in this timeline. Since the Saiyan Empire was still intact, they could analyze how to duplicate Brolly's SSJ transformation he gets simply by genetics. As far as I know, Salagir considers Cooler's "training" to have been meditation and focusing, not lifting weights and punching the air. Since Raichi's ghosts are under his control, he can provide this "mental conditioning" required to give Frieza an augmented form. (Who knows what it takes to get 6th form.) Super Saiyan, however, requires some sort of base level of power in addition to an emotional push. Most of the U3 Saiyans never got that strong when Raichi killed them, so Raichi can't hax-them into Super Saiyans. It's possible his Vegeta and Broly died without unlocking Super Saiyan but were still strong enough to get it, so Raichi could unlock it for them. @thread topic I think Bardock is the most compelling DBM character except maybe Gast. He dedicated his life to saving the Saiyans and succeeded for a long time, but finally came up against something even future sight couldn't beat. He's spent the past few years entirely alone, constantly on the run, and hopelessly outclassed. There is no hope for Bardock if he goes to U3 after this tournament. He's a great example of a tragic protagonist: if only he'd used his future sight powers to not be an A-hole, maybe Raichi wouldn't have tried to kill the Saiyans. He dug his grave, and at the moment there's no way he can escape it. Even excluding his backstory, I like Bardock because he got a great fight against Cold and his visions changed DBM from a straightforward tournament into a deeper story.
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Post by Son Pan on May 15, 2017 20:05:47 GMT
The spirit of the character is the same as the movie. Even that movie they made Bardock as strong as an elite. It was mostly due to him taking on tough missions, getting injured, and having to be healed, receiving zenkai boost. In English dub there was even a line on how he would eventually surpass King Vegeta. Bardock and his team getting as strong as elites in the movie was one of the factors that made Freeza decide to kill the Saiyans. If you look at it from that angle Bardock becoming stronger than King Vegeta in DBM isn't that out of place. Bardock is still an asshole and doesn't really have affection for his sons, considering them worthless for being weak (despite him starting as a low level Saiyan).
I understand where you are coming from with the future visions. It's true that it was meant as retribution for Bardock to see his people's end at the hands of Freeza and being unable to stop it. If this was retconned into the main DB universe to explain how Bardock lived, survived, or succeeded I would agree it weakened the story. I think with DBM since it running on infinite number of universes created by different choices being made that having a universe where Bardock succeeded, while the one in the main universe (and in several other universes) failed works. As others have said the future vision doesn't exactly save the Saiyan race. Eventually they fall to Raichi after they replaced Freeza's family as tyrants of the universe. If anything it makes it worse, since they experienced power and success, getting everything they wanted only to be killed off by the sole survivor of the race they stole planet Vegeta from.
If anything DBM has done a better job than canon DB material has with Bardock. DB Minus made him a straight up good Saiyan who loved his family and sent Goku away to save him. Goku's good nature is attributed to Bardock and Gine instead of it being the result of head injury and upbringing on Earth. Let's not forget how Bardock special had Bardock somehow survive Freeza's attack, go back in time, and become a Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza's ancestor and become the first Super Saiyan ever.
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