Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? | DBM (Extended Discussion)

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 7:41:25 GMT

Quote

Post by SSJ4 GOD Multi on Jun 6, 2017 7:41:25 GMT

Simple question, was he/they a good villain? I say no they weren't and were overly complicated for no reason. I honestly feel they were pushed the way there were to give fans Future Trunks and a Evil Goku. I would give my thoughts on every thing but I never saw the entire Goku Black Arc so I don't know their character 100% but I'm sure there are Super fans that know way more than I do.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 8:07:48 GMT

Quote

Post by Conqueror Geng on Jun 6, 2017 8:07:48 GMT

This would be the musical equivalent of what Zamasu/Black are for villains:

All the elements and rythms (in this case euphemism for clichés) that could make a catchy song, but ultimately say nothing and are just a bunch of things strung for the sake of it with zero substance.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 11:33:02 GMT

Quote

Post by Griffith on Jun 6, 2017 11:33:02 GMT

I would argue that they're not good villains, but great villains. At least in the anime, considering both of the manga and anime have completely different characters. For Goku Black at the very least. And for all things considered Zamasu was better done in the manga. His fall to descent was portrayed better, and I honestly preferred it more. Now back to Goku Black, Goku Black is smug, cocky, and intelligent when things arent going his way Goku Black doesn't completely lose his cool like every other Dragon Ball Villain since Vegeta.

He's a Smug Super essentially at the end of the day.

Black's relationship with Goku and the Saiyan Race is a fascinating one as well, he respects Goku, and the Saiyans for their power, but he also hates Goku for being that powerful, and the Saiyans for being a race of vile warriors. Which is why I'm disappointed in the manga version of him for being essentially being the same character as Zamasu at the end of the day, and for being another generic Dragon Ball Villain.

The duo is rendered even more meaningless when it's the same character.

So at the end of the day if I were to go with Goku Black from the anime he'd be arguably the best villain. If I were to go with Goku Black from the manga then he's just another boring generic Dragon Ball Villain. If we went with Zamasu from the anime then eh, another boring generic Dragon Ball Villain, and that's the same with Zamasu from the manga except his fall from grace was better, and he had a more interesting and varied move set.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 13:13:07 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 13:13:07 GMT

Well that depends on a couple of different criteria. First off, anime or manga. Because in the manga they absolutely suck as villains with boring personalities and no cool powers to really stand out, outside of Black throwing lots of hissy fits.

Another is the quality of each Zamasu considering there's technically three of him Present/Black, Future and Merged (who I'll refer to as Zamaku from now on) right now I'll go through in order from worst to best in my opinion.

Ok Future Zamasu really isn't that interesting in either medium, there's no attempt to show him jumping down the slippery slop (unless you count evil bro hug) and he only has immortality to make him stand out power wise. But at least he gave us this exchange

Black :They don't seem to be listening to you at all.
Zamasu: I'm just being self-absorbed. It doesn't matter if no one's listening.
Black: I see. How truly god-like.

Then we got Zamaku, who's only personality trait is having an ego that makes Doctor Doom and Gilgamesh look humble but at least he has some unique powers that make him truly stand out by basically turning him into the final boss of a jrpg, and having one of the best breakdowns in the series. Him being the most powerful antagonist seen in the series by far is also a plus in his favor.

And then we got the man himself Goku Black who in my opinion is the best villain this series has had since Frieza. Admittedly his backstory is to rushed to make a good knight Templar story but everything else does alleviate that complaint, well that and the fact that Dragon Ball isn't exactly that good with villain motivation in the first place. But yeah Black, in my eyes is a great villain, his personality instead of a stereotypical evil Goku is his own thing, an affable nature that never sheds away despite the fact that it's clear that he's a sadistic monster underneath it all, the almost masochistic joy he gets in a good fight, and how much of a nonchalant ham he becomes once he becomes Rosè. Plus how many other Dragon Ball villains spend there time drinking tea in a cottage. Then of course there's the fact that he actually succeeded in his plan, a bit to well for his taste admittedly but he did succeed which is more than you can say than anyone else but Piccolo Jr.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 15:26:13 GMT

Quote

Post by Xeno Black on Jun 6, 2017 15:26:13 GMT

In truth Zamasu could have been a magnificent villain who could have easily stand out as one of the best of all time. Despite some similarities with some fanfics, a evil kaioshin is quite original with him turning our favorite hero's body as a tool of destruction is quite badass. And his ambition, he "Zero Mortal's Plan", did up the stakes that he had to be stopped no matter what since he wants to wipe out all mortals in every single plane of existence while morphing himself as the supreme god. In a sense he is just like Perfect Cell, but more successful in accomplishing his goals.

But despite all of that, he still falls short from greatness thanks to a few glaring flaws associated with his design:

1). Motivation - Why did Zamasu had such a strong hatred against mortals to begin with? As the former North Kai of universe 10, he must have trained some deceased mortals here and there while acting as a mentor for some [Note: This is based on the assumption that the four quadrant kais act the exact same way just like in Universe 7]. Did this period of time convinced him that mortals were bad while observing his galaxy, or did his mindset started much earlier on as a simple shin-jin? A glaring flaw that was never addressed by either Toei or Toyotaro. Goku just so happened to push his preconceived notions about mortals to the next level.

2). History - The complete history of Zamasu needs to be addressed to flesh him out more as a character instead of being a one-time villain that he was portrayed as. His birth, interactions, training periods, time as a kai, appointed as a kaioshin apprentice, and much more needs to be seen to give us a fair progression of his natural evolution. Most likely Zamasu did not started out as evil, and will love to see his slow progression to extremism that slowly turned his heart into a slab of stone. A perfect candidate of morally grey morality if used correctly since he could have a legitimate reason of wanting to destroy all mortals, but was never properly addressed in either the anime or manga besides finding their forms and purpose 'ugly'.

3). Originality - Almost everything about Zamasu is not original besides his looks. Stealing Goku's body, wish for immortality, and destroying all lifeforms besides his own is quite a overused trope in general dragon ball. Also one could argue he was secretly inspired by fanfic characters such as DBAF's Xicor or Evil Goku from EX Apocalypto since evil kaioshin powers are associated with Goku in some form. Now his potara fusion with Black was cool in the effect it created the very first evil potara creation, but that is it when it comes to uniqueness in Zamasu's character sadly.

4). Death - While his death in the manga has not occurred yet, but his demise in the anime is largely unsatisfactory in my eyes. He should have died against Future Trunks when his entire physical body was obliterated by the spirit bomb infused SSJ Rage hybrid. That way the entire "future" timeline will still exist with Future Zeno never having to appear and destroying the entire future's multiverse. Granted this would have changed the entire tournament of power arc immensely, but at least it would not have created havoc on Future Trunks life since he would not need to travel to a alternative timeline and live with his double there. And if Trunks couldn't kill hi, then it should have been Vegito. That would have been a perfect chance for the fused saiyan god to earn a kill just like Gogeta in Fusion Reborn. Who doesn't want that to happen? However the present timeline's death by Beerus is one of the greatest death scenes of all time in DB history.

Other than that Zamasu was a decent character and enjoyed his appearances most of the time. While it is true that some of Black's and Merged Zamasu's abilities in the anime are quite flashy and 'out there', but it was still enjoyable to view despite the lack of clarification on how they exactly worked.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 18:28:16 GMT

Quote

Post by Ashanark on Jun 6, 2017 18:28:16 GMT

Short answer: No, Zamasu wasn't a good villain. But it's not really his fault.

Long answer:

I bet Zamasu was originally three separate ideas:
1. A mysterious Goku impostor, referring to himself only as "Black," is causing havoc in the universe.
2. A young Kaioshin, Zamasu, determines mortals are dangerous and must be exterminated.
3. Future Trunks' timeline is under attack.

At some point somebody smushed these together. Three good ideas combined must be better, right? The thing is, which idea is most important? Do you focus on Black and the identity crisis issue? Kaioshin and the morality debate? Trunks and the time travel? It seems somebody decided to go with the Kaioshin, but an angsty green elf won't excite fans...Wait! It's an evil Goku! and he's fighting Future Trunks! Oh man, this is gonna be awesome!...with the result that both Goku Black and Trunks feel like afterthoughts--gimmicks, hype-generators, not anything of substance. Black is never really beaten, he just gets replaced by another villain.

Another problem is the Status Quo. How would you write a compelling villain if:
1. Goku can't surpass Beerus, so neither can your villain. You must contrive a way for Beerus to not just fix the problem himself.
2. If FTrunks is involved, all the action must take place in a sterile future, where none of the weaker main characters can be harmed.
3. No one can die, except alternate timeline people nobody cares about.
4. Goku has been given a Fix-Everything-Button by God Himself.

It's impossible to have stakes with these conditions. What did Zamasu accomplish? He didn't kill a single main character. He abused a weakness other people could exploit. He stole Goku's body, but so did Ginyu. Even killing all mortals is null, since Zeno was going to do that anyway. His only achievement is being the first "canon" villain to get immortality...but Garlic Jr. still did it better, since Zamasu got killed regardless. Even personality-wise, Zamasu is nothing unique. "Smug, cultured villain" was already done with Frieza and Perfect Cell. Also, there's no personal drama between Zamasu and the heroes. None of the good guys know him. Being from U10, he's never been affected by anything in U7. How do you create drama between him and Trunks, or Goku? You can't.

Zamasu's supposed to bring up a moral dilemma, but he's too shallow for his issue to be compelling. He's supposed to be smart and sneaky like Imperfect Cell, but his plan's so convoluted and inefficient (why steal Goku's body instead of a GoD's or an angel's? Why not wish for all mortals to be killed?) he comes off as an idiot. He's supposed to be a fun ego like Frieza, but in the grand scheme of things he's so weak that his boasting has no substance. The Zamasu saga falls squarely into Idiot Plot territory, because the only reason anything happens is because everyone--Zamasu included--is an idiot! The manga versions of Black and Zamasu are less over-the-top and stupid...but that makes them even less notable. They're weaker, they're not as hammy, they have more generic moves.

So yeah, Zamasu never really stood a chance. I wouldn't say he's bad; he's just not notable. His best moments are the teamwork he displayed and his very memorable mutation-into-freak and Screensaver final form. There was a good bit of promise in his idea, but on the whole his concept got strangled by Super itself. An utterly bizarre bunch of ideas smushed together in a totally confused arc means he'll always be a "meh" at best to me.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 18:37:11 GMT

Quote

Post by Axalon on Jun 6, 2017 18:37:11 GMT

He had potential, but got drowned out in the silliness that was Toriyama's outline for his arc in both the anime and the manga.

> We needed to know why he hated mortals so much. Did he get traumatized by one (pre-Goku) or something? Is he just a racist or elitist?

> How is Goku Black getting so strong off of zenkais that he went from SS2 Trunks to SS2 Goku to SSB Vegeta? (The secret is it's plot).

> Why the need to retcon the potara? Just have Goku and Vegeta fusion dance and achieve literally the same thing without the retcon! Plus it would give us a canon Gogeta for once.

> Why the colossal Mafuba failure? All that hype dies because Goku ends up being an idiot and forgets the seal/mistakes an adult coupon for the seal. Both are stupid.

> Anime only: What's the deal with SSR Trunks? What the heck is up with Cloud Zamasu?

Earlier villains didn't have these issues. Frieza was an evil overlord who wanted immortality. Cell wanted to prove once and for all that he was the best, and after attaining perfection held a tournament to do exactly that. Buu was just a force of chaos, though admittedly I have issues with his arc similar to issues I find in DBS. Zamasu wants to wipe out all mortal life because reasons.

??????
staticsmall

Was Goku Black/Zamasu A Good Villain? Jun 6, 2017 19:58:48 GMT

Quote

Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jun 6, 2017 19:58:48 GMT

Solely Goku Black and nothing else from the anime/manga except... power scaling? (Is that the right word?) Time to give ~~The Retro Kakarotto~~ a shot at this!

But Anime or Manga though? That's the thing. Also ain't gonna cover Merged Zamasu, haven't seen Manga's Zamasu die yet and it's just normal Zamasu at that point but more arrogant and or insane.

Who is Goku Black?
Since the anime was introduced before the manga, it built suspense as to who Goku Black was. (Boy was that my summer wasted trying to wrap my head around that one.) We were certain it was a form of Goku corrupted, we didn't know how. The moment we saw him with the time ring, we jumped to the conclusion of an alternate timeline (but a more comprehensible version). We also thought he was created directly from the Super Dragon Balls. While that was a good idea (and honestly one better than evil Kaioshin, or hell just "summon a powerful Goku" or something) when it was revealed it was just a Kaioshin with deep hatred for Mortals (see Motives below), it just lost some of its luster. It wasn't THE Goku that ended up killing Future Bulma, it wasn't THE Goku that "betrayed" the world, it wasn't THE Goku that Trunks sought help from those years ago ~~it wasn't THE Goku everyone had to wait for.~~ It was just some poser who had to use a more advance version of body swap. Maybe the Dragon allowed the body and mind to sync faster than Ginyu's technique but the latter's method was already introduced and unique to the Ginyu Force team. Why drag a Kaioshin, a holy being to be reduced to using an ancient relic instead of asking Ginyu how to do it. (Why didn't he? That'd be interesting. Oh no, it's from a mortal, fuck them, I'll use the Godly version.)

In the Manga, we already know who it was so it wasn't as suspenseful as it should've been. Maybe if it was like the old days both were released simultaneously, it would've had a better impact to the audience "Oh my God, Goku Black looks so cool, who is he, I can't find anything about him in the show or the manga!!!" But it's more of a "oh yeah, it's him that's attacking Trunks... meh, what's next?"

Was Future Zamasu, not bodyswapped one, needed at all?
The only good he was there for in the anime was to act as a foil to Goku Black but other than that, he just helped GokuB get the defense that punching "really really hard" won't cut. "Nearly immortal" shit.
In the Manga, iirc, Future Zamasu was actually standing up to Goku Black when "their" (or was it "his?") plan was gonna fuck shit up because it was about to go downhill. But other than that, we need to see the defusion to know how it's gonna go down.

Motive
A guy who hated Mortals because they were committing so many sins, the God who was supposed to make a Utopia ended up committing the same acts of crime. Literally, he went back, AND forward in time to change how things go down in the respective timeline... but multiverse theory saved us a bit. That was an interesting concept, and a reason for that, at least imo, was how I love to hate characters that act hypocritically and how they couldn't see the faults of their own actions. Whether I redeem them afterwards is a different story, depending if the villain wasn't the actual big bad and he realizes his boss' motives was wrong the whole time.
But to explain that he wanted the Body of the mortal that triggered him was a bit sloppy (but we know it's for an evil Goku fanservice) because if he has the balls, why didn't he just erase mortals entirely? In the Anime, however sloppy it was to say, Goku randomly fought Zamasu, at least it was reasonable. In the manga, I can dislike if the button existed, he literally got mad at a GodTube video how a guy was doing so well in a tournament because he was stronger than himself [Zamasu]. That's like getting pissed at a Smash Bros Tournament that you don't even participate in and saying that guy is a douche when you know full well they fought within the tournament rules, it's not their fault they had quick processors in their brains.

Also his last statement how "it's all Trunks' fault" should've made Trunks the target of hate, not Goku... unless Zamasu intertwines the explanation as "I stole the body of the man you sought help from Trunks, look where his power took him,, mwah haha!!!!" but alas, that is lost to time... (Totally worth it

)

Lastly, for now, might add more on Fused Zamasu and Future Trunks specifically, both SS Rage and Healing powers.
Setting of the battle(s)
The Future? Oh my God the world is gonna di- wait didn't the Androids already do that?

It's not original, and it cheapens Black's onslaught of murdering Ningen because the population was already decimated. Maybe if he was targeting Trunks Specifically and how he followed him to the present, made the "final battle" over there (or over "then?") that might have brought tension. But nope, "let's go attack the Future that's already fucked up. Let's not give a shit about reviving the timeline completely to match ours so that our Future Versions wouldn't have died as they did. Let's just fight in this dead wasteland. Oh sorry Trunks, did you say something? Something about 'Too soon Goku?' i couldn't hear you, I wanna fight me so much right now!" Also Maybe go to the root of all timelines and say the Timering's ability can override all these timelines if actions were to change here, that'd bring more tension. Have Zamasu go back to after Zeno's creation to U7 and act like the God instead to all the mortals and fuck with them however he pleases... the insult, not the action. That'd be a true battle to create tension.

Last one, sorry for lyin. Lol. (Also couldn't tell what this should be called.)
Wrong time at the wrong place. It's even worse in the manga how both Zamasus make nods to the Omni-King possibly might see their actions. The anime made Omni-King "too busy" or too not caring to notice this but the statement in the manga makes Zamasu look like a dumbass for carrying out this plan regardless of the fact that the literal higher being is there and can erase him anytime he wants. (Although Gowasu's attempt to correct him and return him to normal while apologizing to the Omni-King is a point in Gowasu's favor. Nice try man, I really do pity you when you got stabbed... that sounds weird.)
tl;dr for this paragraph
Zamasu in the anime looked like a person who didn't know there were drawbacks the 0NingenPlan
Zamasu in the manga looks like a dumbass for acting his plan despite knowing that Zeno could've stopped him