Potara Fusion Multiplier Estimation

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Potara Fusion Multiplier Estimation Nov 5, 2017 18:32:11 GMT

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Post by Kirasha on Nov 5, 2017 18:32:11 GMT

Disclaimer: While I know that power levels are mentioned and used in this post, this is not a topic about Power Levels, but about figuring out the math of the Potara Fusion's multiplier, using the hints/info given in Episode 114 of Dragon Ball Super.

Now that Vados dropped a really nice hint in Episode 114 about Potara fusion, maybe we can finally break down the actual multiplier of this Fusion.

First of all, let's return on what the Super Exciting Guide said about Potara Fusion, which state that it is Power Level x Power Level, which is outrageous when you think about it, especially with people like Goku and Vegeta.

Now, Vados in this episode says that the two fusing "..are more than the sum of their parts and their power increases tens of times." Herms, on Twitter added in that the actual translation says several tens of times.

Now, when someone says tens of times, it usually means about a hundred times, give or take. Sometimes less, sometimes more, but close to a hundred regardless. So Vados says that their power increased, a hundred times. Adding in Herms's bit of translation, that's several hundreds.

Okay, so how do we go about to turn that into math?

First off, let's find a rough estimate of Power Level in the Buu Saga, now if I recall right, Supreme Kai said that Majin Buu is "a thousand times stronger than Frieza"

Even if that was just for the audience's sake, we can work with that. Now as we all know, Frieza was 120,000,000 in his respective arc, so...

120,000,000 x 1000 = 120,000,000,000

Okay, so now we go to Goku and Vegeta, sadly there are no power levels listed for the two during the Buu Saga (Gee, I wonder why?), but most people seem to think they were around 300,000,000 and 400,000,000 in their base form. So, let's say Goku, being the stronger one, is 350 million, and Vegeta, the weaker one, is 300 million. That will work well for this calculation.

Now, following the Super Exciting Guide about Potara Fusion, that would be 350 million x 300 million which results into....erm...well, it's an odd number and I have no idea how many zeroes it has.

350,000,000 x 300,000,000 = 1.05e+17

You know things get heavy when your calculator doesn't display zeroes anymore and goes into numbers like this. Let's just say, it's outrageously high, and I don't even know how high. So to find that out, let's divide this number with the Supreme Kai's idea on how strong Majin Buu is

1.05e+17 ÷ 120,000,000,000 = 875000

Hot Damn! That would make Vegetto, 87500 times stronger than Majin Buu, even when taking into consideration of Buu adding the numbers of Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Gohan, even then, Vegetto would be thousand of times stronger than Buu. That would be madness to think of, sure Vegetto was strong, but this strong? Maybe this explains where U16's Vegetto's strength comes from!

So, let's get into the math that Vados presents to us, which is essentially Power Level + Power Level x 100, I'm using 100 for simplicity sake.

350,000,000 + 300,000,000 = 650,000,000 x 100 = 65,000,000,000

Well, that's just about a bit more than half of Majin Buu's proposed power level, that's not so bad actually. So if we add in Herms's translation of "several tens of times", let's say....400.

650,000,000 x 400 = 260.000.000.000

Oh hey, now we've gone well over double of Buu's supposed level, even taking into consideration of Buu absorbing the others, Gohan included, that would still put Vegetto on top, even though it would be more similar to how SSJ Goku overpowered Full Power Frieza.

So, what do you guys think, has Super finally given us a reasonably accurate estimation on the Potara Fusion Multiplier? Is it indeed PL + PL x a couple hundred, or do you guys think the Super Exciting Guide is correct with PL x PL? Share your opinions!

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staticsmall

Potara Fusion Multiplier Estimation Nov 5, 2017 20:39:20 GMT

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Post by Overridden With Joy Yuya on Nov 5, 2017 20:39:20 GMT

To properly power scale the potara fusion ,you must first scale the entire Buu saga,as Vegetto is at the very end of said saga,and to scale the buu saga you must scale the cell arc,and to do that you need to use a little bit of headcanon.But if you you just take both of those explanations at face value(and let's be honest,you should take all things dragon ball at face value),the explanation that Vados gave makes the most sense,as it does not lead to absurd power discrepancies in between Vegetto and everyone else.

But if you want to get into the power scaling and get an average figure of the potara boost,you first start with the androids at the cell saga and go up from there,since we have the power levels up to the Freeza saga.

Androids: -Stronger than Freeza,capable of outmaching SS vegeta in the long run due to their infinite energy.

-Android 18 defeated SS Vegeta with little trouble

-SS vegeta is stronger than FP Freeza.

-IF the super SS multipliers are correct,that means a 2x diference in power equals an absolute defeat,due to the fact that SS2 is 2x SS and SS2 Gohan destroyed the cell jrs,all that were relative to FPSS Goku,whose power level was just a bit lower than FPSS Gohan.

-So the androids are at least twice as strong as SS Vegeta,who was at least 1.3 times stronger than full power freeza.(That gap more or less the same as the one between Goku and FP Freeza at namek)

-Now we have to factor how getting tired works in the DB world,as this will come up a few times.

Getting tired in the DB world:

This comes up very few times due to the fact that figthers with infinite energy are scarce in this franchise,but at last.
In the DB world, fighters get tired as they fight,so their power level decreses the longer the fight goes, making them weaker,but the androids don't have this problem,meaning that they can win against stronger opponents if they hold on the fight for long enough that the enemy's power decreses to their level,so you can use your headcanon and say that SS Vegeta was stronger than 18 at the beginning of their fight,but lost due to the stamina issiues of the basic SS form.

And that's just for the androids as a group,not even power scaling them
individually,and you need to do this for all caracthers,and don't get me started on Cell's absorptions.

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Potara Fusion Multiplier Estimation Nov 8, 2017 21:23:27 GMT

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Post by Kirasha on Nov 8, 2017 21:23:27 GMT

Agreed, Power Scaling is something of a mess in DBZ, it's even worse with Super, but regardless. As you said, what Vados says does make sense.

But this also brings in a whole different question. Current Power and Transformations.

Power Scaling aside, if we have learned anything from the Fusions, both Potara and Dance, is that the users current height in power, is what is used as the select number to add and multiply to during the Fusion itself. Now for the Fusion Dance, the users must be at the exact same level of power. However with Potara this is not a requirement, which begs the question. If Goku and Vegeta had actively powered up to their full base power, would it have influenced the resulting Fusion? Or are we to assume that they were already at their full base power when Fusion?

Honestly, Base Power is something that has always been difficult to keep track of in the series, because we only know when they lower it to hide themselves. But what if they are just being normal? Is their power lower than full power? Do they need to purposely power up fully? Just all questions that are never answered. But for the sake of this discussion, lets assume that during their fight with Buu, they were at full power. So the Fusion takes those numbers, adds them and multiplies them to come with the Fusion's Power, as I do not believe that the Potara Fusion uses the max potential of the user, but like the Fusion Dance, uses their current level of power.

So what if Goku and Vegeta were transformed, what if Goku was an SSJ3 and Vegeta an SSJ2, the height of their respective powers. Would that influence the Fusion? My answer is, yes, yes it would. If I recall right, Elder Kai specifically tells Goku to not fuse while transformed. But what if Goku had not listened? How much stronger would Vegetto have been at that point? Honestly, going by what we know of Goku's strength and Vegeta's strength in their transformed states, Vegetto would never have needed to go Super Saiyan. At that point, his base form would have been more than enough to deal with Buu. Heck, a Vegetto made out of SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, during Battle of Gods, may well have been a challenge for Beerus.

It is also why I argue that, had Goku and Vegeta both gone SSJ Blue, and then fused to fight Merged Zamasu, the arc would have been over and done with, because at that point, Vegetto would not have needed to go SSJ Blue, and thus would not have drained the Potara's time limit.

The same argument is applied to Kefla, as Kale and Caulifla clearly fuse while being transformed, and thus resulting into their rather powerful fusion that caused even Jiren to twitch his hand.

I do believe that, in that regard, Potara is similar to Fusion Dance, as Goten and Trunks were urged to transform and then fuse, to get the most of the Fusion. So Potara should be the same, the users full power in their transformed state, will result into a more powerful fusion, compared to a user who uses full base power to fuse.

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Potara Fusion Multiplier Estimation Nov 11, 2017 9:53:36 GMT via mobile

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Post by Overridden With Joy Yuya on Nov 11, 2017 9:53:36 GMT

Kirasha

if we have learned anything from the Fusions, both Potara and Dance, is that the users current height in power, is what is used as the select number to add and multiply to during the Fusion itself. Now for the Fusion Dance, the users must be at the exact same level of power. However with Potara this is not a requirement, which begs the question.
If Goku and Vegeta had actively powered up to their full base power, would it have influenced the resulting Fusion? Or are we to assume that they were already at their full base power when Fusion?

Good question, but that's only relevant if we think vegetto would be born in base regardlessof the form that they fused in.
Which I don't think is the case,if Gotenks is anything to go by.

Honestly, Base Power is something that has always been difficult to keep track of in the series, because we only know when they lower it to hide themselves. But what if they are just being normal? Is their power lower than full power? Do they need to purposely power up fully? Just all questions that are never answered. But for the sake of this discussion, lets assume that during their fight with Buu, they were at full power. So the Fusion takes those numbers, adds them and multiplies them to come with the Fusion's Power, as I do not believe that the Potara Fusion uses the max potential of the user, but like the Fusion Dance, uses their current level of power.

You see, Gotenks was able to become even stronger than he ever could be as separate parts.
So I think fusion have a limit of their own, independent of the parts when they fuse.

So what if Goku and Vegeta were transformed, what if Goku was an SSJ3 and Vegeta an SSJ2, the height of their respective powers. Would that influence the Fusion? My answer is, yes, yes it would. If I recall right, Elder Kai specifically tells Goku to not fuse while transformed. But what if Goku had not listened? How much stronger would Vegetto have been at that point? Honestly, going by what we know of Goku's strength and Vegeta's strength in their transformed states, Vegetto would never have needed to go Super Saiyan. At that point, his base form would have been more than enough to deal with Buu. Heck, a Vegetto made out of SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta, during Battle of Gods, may well have been a challenge for Beerus.

It is also why I argue that, had Goku and Vegeta both gone SSJ Blue, and then fused to fight Merged Zamasu, the arc would have been over and done with, because at that point, Vegetto would not have needed to go SSJ Blue, and thus would not have drained the Potara's time limit.

The potara fusion is not like the fusion dance.
Even though both create a new being,the potara creates something new an beyond the parts limitations,but still trapped by them.
Vegetto is much more than (Goku)+(Vegeta)*plot
It's an entirely new being,formed used the part of Goku and Vegeta as a base for it, goku's and Vegeta's limits formed vegetto's,the same for Gotenks.
If Goku and Vegeta had transformed, vegetto would be born as a SS2/SS3.

The same argument is applied to Kefla, as Kale and Caulifla clearly fuse while being transformed, and thus resulting into their rather powerful fusion that caused even Jiren to twitch his hand.

Kefla is an anomaly, since she's neither a perfect fusion,or a particularly strong one when compare to the parts that make her.

I do believe that, in that regard, Potara is similar to Fusion Dance, as Goten and Trunks were urged to transform and then fuse, to get the most of the Fusion. So Potara should be the same, th users full power in their transformed state, will result into a more powerful fusion, compared to a user who uses full base power to fuse.

I agree that they should fuse while transformed,but that's so They don't use precious time and energy transforming.
As I think the fusion's power would not increase.
But you explanation does make kefla's power more reasonable.