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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 8, 2017 1:00:23 GMT
So after watching MasakoX's Mortal Levels video, I'm actually wondering if he's onto something about the ToP possibly having the Worst 4 Universes excluded because he thought the 2 Zen-Ohs would be more entertained with the top 8 Universes fighting instead of the worst 8 Universes. This might mean that the Mortal LV System for the Ranking of the 12 Universes might actually be in order from Worst Universe to Best Universe, so instead of U1 being the highest ranking and U9 being the lowest ranking that that is reversed with U9 being seen as the best Universe and U1 being the worst Universe. If this is true, then that would mean that U7 is actually the 2nd best Universe instead of the 2nd worst.
Maybe the Angels, the GP, and the 2 Zen-Ohs are actually tricking everyone into thinking that 5 Universes will survive and 5 will be erased and instead they'll reveal that Zen-Oh has actually been just pretending to Erase the losing Universes. If that's the case maybe Zen-Oh has just been mass teleporting them to a new Multiverse where the best 7-8 Universes survive and the worst 4-5 are erased. Maybe they lied to the 8 in the tournament to motivate them more &/or to determine which of the 8 actually deserves to be eliminated based off how each of them act during the course of the tournament.
What do you think of this idea? What do you think the chances are of this being some sorta big surprise reveal at the end of the tournament?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 8, 2017 1:11:40 GMT
So after watching MasakoX's Mortal Levels video, I'm actually wondering if he's onto something about the ToP possibly having the Worst 4 Universes excluded because he thought the 2 Zen-Ohs would be more entertained with the top 8 Universes fighting instead of the worst 8 Universes. This might mean that the Mortal LV System for the Ranking of the 12 Universes might actually be in order from Worst Universe to Best Universe, so instead of U1 being the highest ranking and U9 being the lowest ranking that that is reversed with U9 being seen as the best Universe and U1 being the worst Universe. If this is true, then that would mean that U7 is actually the 2nd best Universe instead of the 2nd worst. Maybe the Angels, the GP, and the 2 Zen-Ohs are actually tricking everyone into thinking that 5 Universes will survive and 5 will be erased and instead they'll reveal that Zen-Oh has actually been just pretending to Erase the losing Universes. If that's the case maybe Zen-Oh has just been mass teleporting them to a new Multiverse where the best 7-8 Universes survive and the worst 4-5 are erased. Maybe they lied to the 8 in the tournament to motivate them more &/or to determine which of the 8 actually deserves to be eliminated based off how each of them act during the course of the tournament.
What do you think of this idea? What do you think the chances are of this being some sorta big surprise reveal at the end of the tournament?In terms of cleaning up the Multiverse, U1, 5, 8, 12 are doing a good job maintaining life, I don't see why Zeno would want them gone. In terms of fighting (generalized) if the strongest warriors were to participate, this would either be a curbstomp battle, or at least one too intense for the Zenos to watch, and if the manga was any indication, it isn't any fun watching noisy fighters and blinding dustclouds that they almost decided to cancel the tournament altogether. But if "pretending to erase the losers" is really the case, then this entire ToP loses all possible tension as a saga, as a series we knew it messed up because it's between the end of Majin Buu and EoZ. As a Saga, at least we're interested in knowing how Goku's going to beat Jiren (and currently Kefla) but if we know in advance this was all a big hoax "Lol, we were just kidding, all you pussy ass universes are gonna be living for a while, we just pulling a big prank on ya!" well then what was the point of watching this arc, for the cringe? For the giggle? For the Marketing of brand new super saiyan forms (Ultra Instinct isn't really part of the SS branch but it's still the trend of marketing new forms). Unless of course the big reveal had a bigger reveal, the universes weren't actually erased but an even bigger issue arises, such as the possible Angel Rebellion. Or if somehow Frieza was successful in being the last person standing, then stopping him from becoming the new Omni King. Isn't it funny how the strongest natural mortal (no transformations) is now considered potential threat to the Gods after he gets one power up? |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 8, 2017 1:18:40 GMT
I think this was not what MasakoX said.
He argued something that universes with a lower "HDI" are harder to survive in day by day, thus the inhabitants would be tougher and therefore better fighters.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 8, 2017 1:40:34 GMT
I think this was not what MasakoX said. He argued something that universes with a lower "HDI" are harder to survive in day by day, thus the inhabitants would be tougher and therefore better fighters. You obviously must've missed the last few minutes of the video since he even flipped the list upside down and explained how it makes more sense with the list reversed. He even explains how the supposed best 4 Universes, the GP actually treats like trash whereas he respects the like of U7, which would make a lot of sense if he really had them ranked as the 2nd best. The Retro Kakarotto you already said it's kinda ruined by the fact that it happens before the EoZ and we know at least 2-3 Universes that are still in the ToP plan on wishing all the Universes that are erased back and even if Frieza gets his wish, I have a feeling he'll use his wish to bring all previously erased Universes back with him being the Supreme Emperor God Frieza that rules over the entire God/mortal hierarchy of all 12 (18?) of them. Frieza may still be evil, but I think he's rather rule over 12/18 Universes than ruling over 5 Universes, so yes I think even he will include the erased Universes back as part of his wish if he gets to make his wish. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 8, 2017 1:46:49 GMT
I think this was not what MasakoX said. He argued something that universes with a lower "HDI" are harder to survive in day by day, thus the inhabitants would be tougher and therefore better fighters. You obviously must've missed the last few minutes of the video since he even flipped the list upside down and explained how it makes more sense with the list reversed. He even explains how the supposed best 4 Universes, the GP actually treats like trash whereas he respects the like of U7, which would make a lot of sense if he really had them ranked as the 2nd best. The Retro Kakarotto you already said it's kinda ruined by the fact that it happens before the EoZ and we know at least 2-3 Universes that are still in the ToP plan on wishing all the Universes that are erased back and even if Frieza gets his wish, I have a feeling he'll use his wish to bring all previously erased Universes back with him being the Supreme Emperor God Frieza that rules over the entire God/mortal hierarchy of all 12 (18?) of them. Frieza may still be evil, but I think he's rather rule over 12/18 Universes than ruling over 5 Universes, so yes I think even he will include the erased Universes back as part of his wish if he gets to make his wish. Except this makes 0 sense once you factor U9. If U7 is so respected, then U9 should have been respected more automatically. This was clearly not the case. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 8, 2017 1:51:23 GMT
I think this was not what MasakoX said. He argued something that universes with a lower "HDI" are harder to survive in day by day, thus the inhabitants would be tougher and therefore better fighters. You obviously must've missed the last few minutes of the video since he even flipped the list upside down and explained how it makes more sense with the list reversed. He even explains how the supposed best 4 Universes, the GP actually treats like trash whereas he respects the like of U7, which would make a lot of sense if he really had them ranked as the 2nd best. The Retro Kakarotto you already said it's kinda ruined by the fact that it happens before the EoZ and we know at least 2-3 Universes that are still in the ToP plan on wishing all the Universes that are erased back and even if Frieza gets his wish, I have a feeling he'll use his wish to bring all previously erased Universes back with him being the Supreme Emperor God Frieza that rules over the entire God/mortal hierarchy of all 12 (18?) of them. Frieza may still be evil, but I think he's rather rule over 12/18 Universes than ruling over 5 Universes, so yes I think even he will include the erased Universes back as part of his wish if he gets to make his wish. But if U1 5 8 12 are actually the worst universes, why are they so "that's expected from universes with the highest mortal level" earlier in the saga? If in reality it was shit hole, "worse" than what we saw in U9, they would question why they're getting so much praise despite knowing in reality their Universe is actually low lifed (I know what I typed). Alternately, if the 4 universes (listed above) really are shitty, why not just clean up the multiverse right now, get rid of them and still hold a tournament of the strongest 8 universes? It doesn't make sense why Zeno or Grand Priest would want to keep the 4 lower Universes around and not participate in the tournament but hold one to decide which of the remaining better 8 universes gets to live. Doesn't add up. Oh, the point of Frieza getting the wish is that he's the next opposition, regardless of if he revives the other universes or rules over the remaining 5. I think the remaining 5 would be better story wise (assuming TOEI has a couple of competent writers for this saga) because they have less options to go to for help. (U7) |
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 8, 2017 2:36:18 GMT
Conqueror Geng and The Retro Kakarotto how about watching the video that MasakoX made and then telling me whether or not you agree with it? As for not including the video in my original post that was probably my mistake. Anyways I'll edit it into the original post and then you let me know what you 2 think about it. The only reason I'm redirecting you to the video to see what he said and not telling you myself is because I haven't exactly memorized what he's said that convinced me of it being a possibility and am a little too tired/lazy to go re-watch that part of the video right now. Also feeling a little too tired to discuss this right now, so I figured I'd do the lazy thing of referring you to the video and we could discuss more about this tomorrow.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 8, 2017 2:42:55 GMT
Conqueror Geng and The Retro Kakarotto how about watching the video that MasakoX made and then telling me whether or not you agree with it? As for not including the video in my original post that was probably my mistake. Anyways I'll edit it into the original post and then you let me know what you 2 think about it. The only reason I'm redirecting you to the video to see what he said and not telling you myself is because I haven't exactly memorized what he's said that convinced me of it being a possibility and am a little too tired/lazy to go re-watch that part of the video right now. Also feeling a little too tired to discuss this right now, so I figured I'd do the lazy thing of referring you to the video and we could discuss more about this tomorrow. This part of my previous post should answer if I agree or disagree. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 8, 2017 2:55:34 GMT
I agree that higher developed societies generally create lazier and weaker, more complacent individuals on average. Even in real life, not limited to DB world.
But for this to be true, the ranking should remain the same and not be reversed.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 8, 2017 3:44:52 GMT
I watched that video myself earlier today. I think it is a interesting theory, but disagreed with it the idea of the 4 universes with the top mortal levels are really the worst ones or that this all some grand scheme to make them realize they are on the chopping block and need to improve. One issue I took was that made assumptions that the universes having weaker warriors despite having a higher mortal level was evidence that their universes are stagnate or have stopped growing, because lack of conflict. That could be true, but we can't assume just because the other universes didn't all become as insanely strong as U7 that there is anything wrong with them. The threats they could have faced may just not have been as powerful as the ones U7 faced. Threats likw Freeza, Cell, and Majin Buu are outliers in terms of insanely powerful villains in U7 and it was dumb luck that they had a race in U7 that could reach those same levels, a feat other races in their universe never really did. If U1 never had a evil as powerful as Majin Buu, thus their fighters never had to get as strong is it really a personal fault on their own that merits them not trying hard?
Despite mentioning that Mortal Level wasn't just about power levels that Masoka seemed to really correlate the fighting performances of the other universes as evidence as those universes shouldn't have a high mortal level. He used U11 as an example of them being fifth place as the mortal level making no sense, since the Pride Troopers are even a thing and face a lot of dangers. He is making the assumption that Grand Priest and Zeno should be expecting the universes with the highest levels to have fewer or no dangers no need for a powerful police force. We don't know if that is the case though. For example the Pride Troopers may be necessary in U11, but do a great job in protecting the universe on a whole that many civilizations could prosper, and said prosperity could breed greed and resentment that makes more villains and threats that U11 fights. Thus a prospering universe could still being doing well and have dangers and threats in it. U7 having the strongest warriors is no real indication that they should be number 2 or that Grand Priest liking them means they are doing well. He can admire them for their progress despite the low mortal level and still think Beerus and Shin need to clean up their act. Beerus especially since he seals Supreme Kai in swords for petty reasons and lets a monster like Majin Buu kill off four of the more experienced Supreme Kai and not help the last survivor who had to learn on the job.
In the manga at least this whole tournament is happening because Zeno is too lazy to properly watch over the universes. For all we know none of the existing universes are terrible or horrible shape. Zeno wants a smaller number to watch over and Grand Priest is using the scale to do that for him. He talked Zeno into keeping five and destroying seven with the lowest scores. Goku idea about the tournament made the fifth spot a prize for the competing 8 universes to fight over to amuse Zeno 1 and Zeno 2. If Grand Priest wanted the top four gone for being stagnant he would've told the Zenos about it and they likely would have agreed to it and added a few more since the purpose is to lighten his work load. Going through all these hoops as a lesson to the top 4 serves no purpose. The lesson gets across if he makes them compete to and tells them they are the ones who are screwing up their universes.
Ultimately while I agree that Mortal Level system doesn't mean that universes are free from conflict or that is what the powers that be use to measure the success of a universe I disagree that it means U7 and U9 really have the highest score because they have more conflicts.
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