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Post by Axalon on Sept 28, 2018 18:54:02 GMT
Axalon Looks like he's between forms. Which is still above 530k... Well maybe the shield would've held just long enough for Frieza to finish transforming and tank the blast. Is he between forms? I actually hadn't considered that and just thought the artist messed up the horns. Really. In DBZ Frieza was stuck transforming and it looked quite painful for him, he couldn't do anything else until he was done transforming and the actual act itself literally brought Frieza down to a knee and panting for breath--which is why I assumed he was done here since he ran over to look over Zarbon's shoulder. Either way, I think its silly. If the Oozarus could disintegrate Frieza then a shield should not have done anything at all.
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Post by Symbiotic on Sept 28, 2018 18:59:34 GMT
Wouldn't be the first thing Salagir changed about Frieza's race.
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Post by QuentinShuai on Sept 29, 2018 18:01:00 GMT
And destroying Freeza ship's shield. Wtf was even that? So the collective Ozarus just blasted Freeza into oblivion, couldn't they have blasted the shield too? The shield couldn't possibly have been stronger than Freeza, could it? In U8 special, the shield is designed to counter 1st form (maybe higher) Frieza catastrophic sphere, so maybe it's as strong as couple of serious attacks from Frieza.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 29, 2018 22:13:41 GMT
And destroying Freeza ship's shield. Wtf was even that? So the collective Ozarus just blasted Freeza into oblivion, couldn't they have blasted the shield too? The shield couldn't possibly have been stronger than Freeza, could it? In U8 special, the shield is designed to counter 1st form (maybe higher) Frieza catastrophic sphere, so maybe it's as strong as couple of serious attacks from Frieza. Not exactly. Frieza didn't directly blast his ship with his own Death Ball, he blasted the planet instead. I'm sure being far away from the blast also helped the ship's survival rate, on top of being "resistant" to those types of attacks. What's more, it wasn't even a planetbusting attack. Compared to the Saiyans just disintegrating Frieza in his second form (or 1.5 form I dunno) that's far more output of energy. I mean, the math adds up. King Vegeta's PL = 10,000. Bardocks's PL = 10,000 Hanasia's PL = 12,000. Multiplied x10 for the Oozaru bonus that's 320,000 BP in one blast just from those three alone. Now let's add in random average Saiyans. Hell, let's even low-ball them to Raditz's level, who was on the lower end of the spectrum for Saiyans not sent to planets as babies. Raditz's PL was 1500. So x10 would be 15,000. 50 Oozaru Raditzes would contribute a BP of 750,000 to the attack, adding to Vegeta and Bardock's and Hanasia's meaning we're already at a blast of 1,070,000, which is 70,000 BP more than Frieza's second form entirely. Of course, different Saiyans will have different PLs. I'm sure not all of them would be as weak as Raditz, so any blast with Saiyans stronger than him would also mean an even stronger blast. That number I pulled was just something random as well, since the U3 special said ALL the people gathered in the desert to rebel against Frieza. This likely means the number's far higher than just 50, but we can see how even with just 50 how powerful that blast was if we low-ball them to Raditz power levels. On top of that, the shields couldn't even withstand Hanasia, who hadn't even transformed and was only at a PL of 12,000, just punching her way through. So if they couldn't stop Hanasia with her measly PL they certainly couldn't have stopped Team Oozaru from blasting them to kingdom come either.
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Post by QuentinShuai on Sept 29, 2018 23:19:54 GMT
Axalon In this case I might be wrong before. So I reviewed this page, Frieza said "This kind of attack". In French it uses "Genre de attaque". So what matters here is more like "type of attack" than "this power of attack" , in other word ki blasts. The shield blocks large amount of ki attack but can be vulnerable against physical punch. So I think Salagir here is being convenient, avoiding PL calculation.
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Post by Teh Jammah on Sept 30, 2018 0:06:16 GMT
On top of that, the shields couldn't even withstand Hanasia, who hadn't even transformed and was only at a PL of 12,000, just punching her way through. ... So if they couldn't stop Hanasia with her measly PL they certainly couldn't have stopped Team Oozaru from blasting them to kingdom come either. This sounds like a Ray Shields vs Particle Shields arguement. Ray Shields are tuned to defend against energy attacks, but are generally porous to something more solid Particle Shields are for more solid things - asteroids and the like - but aren't as strong against lazors. Since this is a universe where people can shoot energy from their hands that can blow up asteroids/moons/planets/other celestial bodies and can survive in space to fly out of said ship and do so, it is a feasable assumption that Freeza's ship is more set up to defend against ki-blast type attacks than missiles & asteroids (blowing those up is what the minions are for). So Hanasia physically smashing through the shield isn't an adequate assessment of its strength. or, to use another example... Link in the likely event my attempt to embed fails horriblyThis is the (land) Battle of Naboo from the 1st Star Wars prequel. At the start you can see the droid tanks shooting at the generated ray shield to no effect. After this they unpack a bunch of battle droids which just walk through the shield. These aren't the badass destroyer droids that trained Jedi run from. These are the basic run-of-the-mill droid soldiers that get slaughtered en-masse by everyone. By the logic you used above the energy shield can't be that strong since crappy cannon-fodder battle droids are able to walk through it. Which means these droids are also stronger than the lazer guns on those tanks. Which is obviously not the case.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 30, 2018 0:27:27 GMT
Teh Jammah QuentinShuai Ah yes, I anticipated this would be the natural course of the conversation. This is also why I included the page where Hanasia punches her way through the shield. The Star Wars example isn't the same, by virtue of how the droids enter the shield vs how Hanasia enters the shield. In TPM, the battle droids simply just walk through. That's it. They walk in and they're done. Fight can commence. Hanasia actively met resistance that physically stops her, then proceeds to break through the shield through sheer force before breaking directly into Frieza's ship. This seems less like the Star Wars shield pictured above where solid objects just walk though and more like Star Trek type shields where it's just a big energy field that stops everything--unless you can match frequencies with the Trek shields or some other technobabble, but barring a few exceptions that wouldn't apply to DBM anyway that is how it functions. Again, going off of how it physically stops Hanasia before she plows through it anyway, much like how in the clip above a shuttlecraft just bounces off the Enterprise's shields.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 30, 2018 0:37:59 GMT
Teh Jammah QuentinShuai Ah yes, I anticipated this would be the natural course of the conversation. This is also why I included the page where Hanasia punches her way through the shield. The Star Wars example isn't the same, by virtue of how the droids enter the shield vs how Hanasia enters the shield. In TPM, the battle droids simply just walk through. That's it. They walk in and they're done. Fight can commence. Hanasia actively met resistance that physically stops her, then proceeds to break through the shield through sheer force before breaking directly into Frieza's ship. This seems less like the Star Wars shield pictured above where solid objects just walk though and more like Star Trek type shields where it's just a big energy field that stops everything--unless you can match frequencies with the Trek shields or some other technobabble, but barring a few exceptions that wouldn't apply to DBM anyway that is how it functions. Again, going off of how it physically stops Hanasia before she plows through it anyway, much like how in the clip above a shuttlecraft just bounces off the Enterprise's shields.
Maybe the shields on Frieza's ship are susceptible to small piercing forces, whereas large energy or physical objects can't break through it. After all Hanasia just pierced a small hole thru it and didn't destroy it entirely.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 30, 2018 0:45:17 GMT
LOL, crazy how this got from creating a Hanasia thread, moving the posts from the general thread, to talking about force shields.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 3:34:32 GMT
LOL, crazy how this got from creating a Hanasia thread, moving the posts from the general thread, to talking about force shields. Wait wtf? Did I completely derail a thread again to the point it needed to be moved into it's own thread which was then derailed to the point that half of it needs to be moved into it's own thread?
Not sure if meta or just plain fucking stupid.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 30, 2018 4:49:24 GMT
It's still somewhat on topic, since the thread is currently focused on how Hanasia supposedly opened up Frieza to get murked by a bunch of damn dirty apes and the strength of the shield that she supposedly had to disable to kill Frieza, or lack thereof. Maybe the shields on Frieza's ship are susceptible to small piercing forces, whereas large energy or physical objects can't break through it. After all Hanasia just pierced a small hole thru it and didn't destroy it entirely. Physical objects like a Saiyan woman? Sarcasm aside, I still don't see the power differential here. I think that, of all people, Frieza is being severely underestimated here. The guy is goddamn durable and can survive planets exploding while being only half the man he used to be and also while mostly dead after taking a Super Saiyan energy blast to the face. Sure he was in his final form by then, but he was still mostly dead and cut in half. His genes would go on to ensure Cell continued to survive long after he should've died as well. This guy was disintegrated immediately. The Oozarus killed Frieza here faster than Future Trunks killed Frieza. If they're capable of killing someone that quickly just through sheer brute force, I still quite frankly can't see what a shield is going to do to stop them. It basically feels like Hanasia had to do something to contribute, so uhhhh...knock out Frieza's shields! Yes! Look at this valuable member of Saiyan society!
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 30, 2018 21:02:07 GMT
It's still somewhat on topic, since the thread is currently focused on how Hanasia supposedly opened up Frieza to get murked by a bunch of damn dirty apes and the strength of the shield that she supposedly had to disable to kill Frieza, or lack thereof. Maybe the shields on Frieza's ship are susceptible to small piercing forces, whereas large energy or physical objects can't break through it. After all Hanasia just pierced a small hole thru it and didn't destroy it entirely. Physical objects like a Saiyan woman? Sarcasm aside, I still don't see the power differential here. I think that, of all people, Frieza is being severely underestimated here. The guy is goddamn durable and can survive planets exploding while being only half the man he used to be and also while mostly dead after taking a Super Saiyan energy blast to the face. Sure he was in his final form by then, but he was still mostly dead and cut in half. His genes would go on to ensure Cell continued to survive long after he should've died as well. This guy was disintegrated immediately. The Oozarus killed Frieza here faster than Future Trunks killed Frieza. If they're capable of killing someone that quickly just through sheer brute force, I still quite frankly can't see what a shield is going to do to stop them. It basically feels like Hanasia had to do something to contribute, so uhhhh...knock out Frieza's shields! Yes! Look at this valuable member of Saiyan society!
The "large" before "energy" was meant to apply to "physical objects" as well. What I was trying to say is that small piercing forces (energy or physical objects) could puncture a hole through it, but large energy attacks or large physical objects like asteroids would fail to destroy or do enough damage to pierce it.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 2, 2018 2:36:52 GMT
I think Hanasia breaking through the shield was meant to be that small yet fast object piercing a strong shield where a huge or strong blast would fail too, but I agree with Axalon that it felt unneeded and can see his point on this making no real sense.
At the end of the day I think Hanasia had too much going for her character that it felt like nothing got a lot of focus. She is the strongest Saiyan, Bardock's mate, Goku's mom, queen of the Saiyans, and beloved by her people. Nothing got really focused on, despite everything she had. Hanasia as queen and Hanasia as Raditz and Kakarot's mom could have been separate characters and that would have freed up Goku's mom to have gotten more little moments with her family and possibly her Saiyan team. Hanasia the queen character could have been done what she did in the comic and not lose much.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 1, 2021 19:02:34 GMT
Hanasia is a problematic character in my eyes. I already am not a fan of the admittedly very popular super warrior Bardock portrayal in the Bardock Special where he surpasses King Vegeta's power before falling in a hyper cool last stand taking on Frieza's entire grunt army before Frieza personally kills him off. With Bardock's actions being seemingly the sole driving force to his decision to kill the Saiyans. So this already put a question to the theme of the Saiyan Saga of a true low class nobody surpassing an elite thanks to his training and experiences on Earth.
Hanasia just takes that idea and tosses it in the garbage.
I like the idea of action girls, and the idea of a badass Saiyan warrior woman is cool. But being the mother of Goku/Kakarot? This just means Goku is as privlaged as Vegeta out of the gate, the son of the strongest Saiyan of her generation and invalidates Goku's own decisions and agency to become what he was when Vegeta arrived. It cheapens it entirely. And Hanasia being as strong as she is seems to serve no real narrative purpose beyond some rule of cool moments, as it undermines Vegeta's status as the prodigy among his people especially with her beating him at once point.
I just don't like it.
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Post by عمار on Jun 1, 2021 19:40:29 GMT
Hanasia is a problematic character in my eyes. I already am not a fan of the admittedly very popular super warrior Bardock portrayal in the Bardock Special where he surpasses King Vegeta's power before falling in a hyper cool last stand taking on Frieza's entire grunt army before Frieza personally kills him off. With Bardock's actions being seemingly the sole driving force to his decision to kill the Saiyans. So this already put a question to the theme of the Saiyan Saga of a true low class nobody surpassing an elite thanks to his training and experiences on Earth. Hanasia just takes that idea and tosses it in the garbage. I like the idea of action girls, and the idea of a badass Saiyan warrior woman is cool. But being the mother of Goku/Kakarot? This just means Goku is as privlaged as Vegeta out of the gate, the son of the strongest Saiyan of her generation and invalidates Goku's own decisions and agency to become what he was when Vegeta arrived. It cheapens it entirely. And Hanasia being as strong as she is seems to serve no real narrative purpose beyond some rule of cool moments, as it undermines Vegeta's status as the prodigy among his people especially with her beating him at once point. I just don't like it. I don't think Hanasia was born an elite. I believe Salagir once said that she & Bardock were low class, but then they become elites thanks to their battles & training.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 1, 2021 19:45:11 GMT
Hanasia is a problematic character in my eyes. I already am not a fan of the admittedly very popular super warrior Bardock portrayal in the Bardock Special where he surpasses King Vegeta's power before falling in a hyper cool last stand taking on Frieza's entire grunt army before Frieza personally kills him off. With Bardock's actions being seemingly the sole driving force to his decision to kill the Saiyans. So this already put a question to the theme of the Saiyan Saga of a true low class nobody surpassing an elite thanks to his training and experiences on Earth. Hanasia just takes that idea and tosses it in the garbage. I like the idea of action girls, and the idea of a badass Saiyan warrior woman is cool. But being the mother of Goku/Kakarot? This just means Goku is as privlaged as Vegeta out of the gate, the son of the strongest Saiyan of her generation and invalidates Goku's own decisions and agency to become what he was when Vegeta arrived. It cheapens it entirely. And Hanasia being as strong as she is seems to serve no real narrative purpose beyond some rule of cool moments, as it undermines Vegeta's status as the prodigy among his people especially with her beating him at once point. I just don't like it. I don't think Hanasia was born an elite. I believe Salagir once said that she & Bardock were low class, but then they become elites thanks to their battles & training. And I say it doesn't matter. The point is the two of them, relatively quickly, surpass those elites and have absurd power levels for low levels which defeats the entire idea of Goku's origin and makes them but especially Hanasia feel too special. He was born of low levels, low levels who became the strongest Saiyans of their generation anyway so not much of a rag to riches story. It makes it all feel cheap.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 1, 2021 23:36:53 GMT
I can see how it cheapens the idea of Goku being the first ever Saiyan to surpass how caste system works by having two parents who do the same, but I don’t think it invalidates Goku’s decisions. I say that because Goku’s decisions aren’t really based on trying to prove he can be strong while being seen as weak like in other Shonen series like Naruto, but more of Goku wants to be as strong as he can and fight strong opponents. Regardless of who his parents are he would have always made the same choices he made because Goku is the odd ball of his people in that he loves the challenge and wants competition. Saiyans are more in line with Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz in that they claim to want challenges, but when they get them they lose their cool and start spouting off on their heritage and how it is impossible for them to lose to beings they view as inferior.
Goku’s actions show he is more of a true Saiyan than anyone because he actually strives for that challenge and gets excited even when he is on the losing end of a fight. To me that is what makes Goku’s character. The underdog story was never Goku’s story IMO. Before Saiyan reveal Goku was shown to be the prodigy the same way Gohan is seen. The underdog story really only came in when the Saiyans were officially introduced and even then it is not really not that important to Goku’s story, but Vegeta’s story. Vegeta is the only character who keeps harping on Goku’s low class status. Goku chose his Earth heritage over his Saiyan one for most of the series. I think those choices are still valid regardless of parents class.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 0:11:52 GMT
I can see how it cheapens the idea of Goku being the first ever Saiyan to surpass how caste system works by having two parents who do the same, but I don’t think it invalidates Goku’s decisions. I say that because Goku’s decisions aren’t really based on trying to prove he can be strong while being seen as weak like in other Shonen series like Naruto, but more of Goku wants to be as strong as he can and fight strong opponents. Regardless of who his parents are he would have always made the same choices he made because Goku is the odd ball of his people in that he loves the challenge and wants competition. Saiyans are more in line with Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz in that they claim to want challenges, but when they get them they lose their cool and start spouting off on their heritage and how it is impossible for them to lose to beings they view as inferior. Goku’s actions show he is more of a true Saiyan than anyone because he actually strives for that challenge and gets excited even when he is on the losing end of a fight. To me that is what makes Goku’s character. The underdog story was never Goku’s story IMO. Before Saiyan reveal Goku was shown to be the prodigy the same way Gohan is seen. The underdog story really only came in when the Saiyans were officially introduced and even then it is not really not that important to Goku’s story, but Vegeta’s story. Vegeta is the only character who keeps harping on Goku’s low class status. Goku chose his Earth heritage over his Saiyan one for most of the series. I think those choices are still valid regardless of parents class. I mean, that is fine, but the idea of Goku being an underdog and "low class trash" WAS a theme of the Saiyan Saga, and I actually liked the idea of Goku being the child of relative nobodies beyond that. So many Shonen protags have all star dads who are some of the strongest guys in their setting, with Goku actually succeeding in spite of his circumstances not because of them. Bardock is always been a tricky fine line, as objectively he is quite popular as a stone cold badass who surpasses the elites and dies tragically to Frieza, but I always felt it undermined Goku's achievements. Having both his parents be that way, is going way overkill. Especially Hanasia who seems to objectively become the best and coolest and most supreme of the OG Saiyans which I feel is taking it past any point of tolerance.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 2, 2021 0:41:28 GMT
I can see how it cheapens the idea of Goku being the first ever Saiyan to surpass how caste system works by having two parents who do the same, but I don’t think it invalidates Goku’s decisions. I say that because Goku’s decisions aren’t really based on trying to prove he can be strong while being seen as weak like in other Shonen series like Naruto, but more of Goku wants to be as strong as he can and fight strong opponents. Regardless of who his parents are he would have always made the same choices he made because Goku is the odd ball of his people in that he loves the challenge and wants competition. Saiyans are more in line with Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz in that they claim to want challenges, but when they get them they lose their cool and start spouting off on their heritage and how it is impossible for them to lose to beings they view as inferior. Goku’s actions show he is more of a true Saiyan than anyone because he actually strives for that challenge and gets excited even when he is on the losing end of a fight. To me that is what makes Goku’s character. The underdog story was never Goku’s story IMO. Before Saiyan reveal Goku was shown to be the prodigy the same way Gohan is seen. The underdog story really only came in when the Saiyans were officially introduced and even then it is not really not that important to Goku’s story, but Vegeta’s story. Vegeta is the only character who keeps harping on Goku’s low class status. Goku chose his Earth heritage over his Saiyan one for most of the series. I think those choices are still valid regardless of parents class. I mean, that is fine, but the idea of Goku being an underdog and "low class trash" WAS a theme of the Saiyan Saga, and I actually liked the idea of Goku being the child of relative nobodies beyond that. So many Shonen protags have all star dads who are some of the strongest guys in their setting, with Goku actually succeeding in spite of his circumstances not because of them. Bardock is always been a tricky fine line, as objectively he is quite popular as a stone cold badass who surpasses the elites and dies tragically to Frieza, but I always felt it undermined Goku's achievements. Having both his parents be that way, is going way overkill. Especially Hanasia who seems to objectively become the best and coolest and most supreme of the OG Saiyans which I feel is taking it past any point of tolerance. That is valid to feel I just think it is too much to say Goku having strong parents completely invalidates his choices and achievements. Goku being underdog was really only used for one arc when before Goku was pretty much shown to just be a prodigy who was just naturally strong and grew so fast and was hardly a underdog at all. Arguably those traits never left since the big reason Goku is so strong is because he is a Saiyan. Other characters trained just as hard but never made half his gains because they didn’t have zenkai boosts and later transformations until Toriayama drop pretense that human characters mattered in a fight. I get not liking the idea of Goku having famous or important parents. I can see your point on it feeling like takes away from Goku a bit. I hope I didn’t sound like I was completely crapping on your opinion. In terms of Shonen that botched the idea of underdog rags to riches story that Dragon Ball hasn’t committed that sin compared to another series like Naruro where the appeal of his character was he was a loser and nobody who trained hard to surpass the elites, only to find out later he came from an elite blood line himself and was destined to save the world.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 0:55:02 GMT
I mean, that is fine, but the idea of Goku being an underdog and "low class trash" WAS a theme of the Saiyan Saga, and I actually liked the idea of Goku being the child of relative nobodies beyond that. So many Shonen protags have all star dads who are some of the strongest guys in their setting, with Goku actually succeeding in spite of his circumstances not because of them. Bardock is always been a tricky fine line, as objectively he is quite popular as a stone cold badass who surpasses the elites and dies tragically to Frieza, but I always felt it undermined Goku's achievements. Having both his parents be that way, is going way overkill. Especially Hanasia who seems to objectively become the best and coolest and most supreme of the OG Saiyans which I feel is taking it past any point of tolerance. That is valid to feel I just think it is too much to say Goku having strong parents completely invalidates his choices and achievements. Goku being underdog was really only used for one arc when before Goku was pretty much shown to just be a prodigy who was just naturally strong and grew so fast and was hardly a underdog at all. Arguably those traits never left since the big reason Goku is so strong is because he is a Saiyan. Other characters trained just as hard but never made half his gains because they didn’t have zenkai boosts and later transformations until Toriayama drop pretense that human characters mattered in a fight. I get not liking the idea of Goku having famous or important parents. I can see your point on it feeling like takes away from Goku a bit. I hope I didn’t sound like I was completely crapping on your opinion. In terms of Shonen that botched the idea of underdog rags to riches story that Dragon Ball hasn’t committed that sin compared to another series like Naruro where the appeal of his character was he was a loser and nobody who trained hard to surpass the elites, only to find out later he came from an elite blood line himself and was destined to save the world. And this is also valid, and no I got no sense you were crapping on my opinion, but you seem to focus on the idea that Goku HAS to be an underdog, he isn't past the Saiyan Saga. I disagree that he is some natural prodigy, only Vegeta ever made that claim in his Majin state and his words are to be taken shakily at best given it is more or less implied he was venting and lying to himself during that speech. Everything Goku ever did, in DB, DBZ and DBS/DBGT beyond is cause Goku has a passion for fighting and trains his ass off. He hated the SSG form at first cause it was the first thing he couldn't achieve off his own efforts. Goku worked harder, worked smarter than others like Vegeta and was never afraid to ask for help be it human or divine. Gohan is the natural prodigy in the Son family, where as Goku was a freak of hard work. The most egregious case of natural talent was his zenkai boosts which compared to Vegeta were absurd (And still BS) but were never mentioned for Goku past that arc. Not saying Goku was as offensive to old themes as Naruto, but the idea that Goku's parents going from low level nobodies whose one defining act was giving Goku a chance to grow up on Earth to being the top Saiyans around does have undertones I simply am not a fan of. It does nothing but glorify his genes when that is not the point of Goku's character, and it also cheapens Vegeta & Frieza as now Frieza's motive shifts from "worried the Saiyans collectively will rise against him" to "oh these specific Saiyans are so OP I HAVE to do something to them" and Vegeta no longer is a standout Saiyan given Hanasia spanked his butt and Vegeta was supposed to be the greatest prodigy of his race not named Broly. It literally makes everyone but the parents look worse.
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