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Post by عمار on Oct 14, 2022 13:14:03 GMT
To defend Toriyama's writing (and that's really a first coming from me in these years) at least that still makes Gine pointless in the grand scheme of things. She's still a nobody, even if she's a nice person. Hanasia being the strongest makes her important both narratively (parallel to Goku's strength) and in universe (she stands at the top of the Saiyan society). Make her the ACTUAL queen of the Saiyans and it just becomes... sad. That makes Goku the prince of Saiyans, not Vegeta. I really tired to avoid this thread because we were just going in circle, but I just can't see what is the issue here? Hanasia become queen in U3 only. U18 Goku has nothing to do with her powers & accomplishments. More so the fact that U3 Kakarotto went on to become nobody.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 14, 2022 18:20:32 GMT
To defend Toriyama's writing (and that's really a first coming from me in these years) at least that still makes Gine pointless in the grand scheme of things. She's still a nobody, even if she's a nice person. Hanasia being the strongest makes her important both narratively (parallel to Goku's strength) and in universe (she stands at the top of the Saiyan society). Make her the ACTUAL queen of the Saiyans and it just becomes... sad. That makes Goku the prince of Saiyans, not Vegeta. I really tired to avoid this thread because we were just going in circle, but I just can't see what is the issue here? Hanasia become queen in U3 only. U18 Goku has nothing to do with her powers & accomplishments. More so the fact that U3 Kakarotto went on to become nobody. Because again, making her so strong and so important to the Saiyan history really goes against Goku's achievements and it is a pointless addition to things. Makes him a gift of genetics even more so than Vegeta. Salagir did it just to crowbar in an OC he can wank rather than it adding to the story in anyway.
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Post by عمار on Oct 15, 2022 6:43:15 GMT
Because again, making her so strong and so important to the Saiyan history really goes against Goku's achievements and it is a pointless addition to things. Makes him a gift of genetics even more so than Vegeta. Salagir did it just to crowbar in an OC he can wank rather than it adding to the story in anyway. And once again, Her being strong or weak has nothing to do with Goku's achievements, because he didn't inherent her powers. He was a weak child, even way weaker than the likes of Raditz. Which is why they send him to earth in the first place. Goku became as strong as he is today because of training & hard work, not because of "genetics". If it was like you said then each version of Goku/Kakarotto was destined for greatness. But that was not the case. U3 Kakarotto is a lower class nobody, U1/U10 Kakarotto are long dead due to him being too weak to survive, And U13 Kakarotto only become as strong as he's now because he went through similar circumstances to Goku (and the fact that he was immortal). None of them were close to Goku's level of strength. While Vegeta on the other hand was always destined for greatness, he just needed someone to push him for him to reach his full potential. In many universes it was Goku, in U3 it was Broly, in U7 it was Gast, & U13...ummm... Freeza? xD Anyway, the point is: unlike Goku, Vegeta was indeed a prodigy.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 15, 2022 16:15:57 GMT
Because again, making her so strong and so important to the Saiyan history really goes against Goku's achievements and it is a pointless addition to things. Makes him a gift of genetics even more so than Vegeta. Salagir did it just to crowbar in an OC he can wank rather than it adding to the story in anyway. And once again, Her being strong or weak has nothing to do with Goku's achievements, because he didn't inherent her powers. He was a weak child, even way weaker than the likes of Raditz. Which is why they send him to earth in the first place. Goku became as strong as he is today because of training & hard work, not because of "genetics". If it was like you said then each version of Goku/Kakarotto was destined for greatness. But that was not the case. U3 Kakarotto is a lower class nobody, U1/U10 Kakarotto are long dead due to him being too weak to survive, And U13 Kakarotto only become as strong as he's now because he went through similar circumstances to Goku (and the fact that he was immortal). None of them were close to Goku's level of strength. While Vegeta on the other hand was always destined for greatness, he just needed someone to push him for him to reach his full potential. In many universes it was Goku, in U3 it was Broly, in U7 it was Gast, & U13...ummm... Freeza? xD Anyway, the point is: unlike Goku, Vegeta was indeed a prodigy. He didn't inherit her power due to dumb writing, not because power cannot be passed due to "genetics" in the series. There is no reason given who Goku/Kakarot's parents are in DBM that he shouldn't have been born stronger. He is literally the child of the strongest Saiyan of her entire era as well as Bardock one of its best warriors, he should be Vegeta on steroids the only reason he isn't is because Salagir would've had to radically alter the backstories of Goku/Kakarot of every universe to account for this. Hanasia and her needless OPness only adds plot holes to this whole make up of things, rather than add anything beneficial to it. Want to have a cool badass Saiyan girl? Make her Broly's mother or Turles even. Hell making her Vegeta's would've reinforced Vegeta's initial story and added a lot to Goku/Vegeta's dynamic.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 31, 2022 20:25:02 GMT
I do find it interesting how the concept of Goku’s mother produced two extreme character concepts on the opposite end of the spectrum. We got DBM with Hanasia, as one of the strongest Saiyans, eventually became the strongest and queen of the whole race on one side. On the other side we got DB Minus with Gine, as not just one of the weakest Saiyans but a non fighter who is good natured and hinted Goku’s good nature came from her. Neither fans nor the creator ever saw Goku’s mother as an average Saiyan warrior. To defend Toriyama's writing (and that's really a first coming from me in these years) at least that still makes Gine pointless in the grand scheme of things. She's still a nobody, even if she's a nice person. Hanasia being the strongest makes her important both narratively (parallel to Goku's strength) and in universe (she stands at the top of the Saiyan society). Make her the ACTUAL queen of the Saiyans and it just becomes... sad. That makes Goku the prince of Saiyans, not Vegeta. I disagree on Gine being pointless. In the changed origin story we learn Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it. His parents sent him there to save him from Freeza. It means Goku’s parents are now the sole reason he went to Earth. Gine being kind hearted implies Goku inherited that trait from her. Goku hitting his head and becoming kind is no longer a random event that happened by chance, but a trait Goku always had. Goku being kind or pure of heart is what allowed him to be receptive of Grandpa Gohan’s training at all, which opened the door to him learning from other martial arts masters. Goku being pure of heart is what gave him the chance to keep his body when he died and train with King Kai at all, which really is what allowed Goku to raise to the ranks of the elite and eventually surpass Vegeta on Namek. The story changes from Goku going to Earth, losing his memory, and becoming good by chance. It makes everything Goku achieve partially because of his parents’ actions. Goku’s parents choosing to save him out of love does really change the narrative and makes them important to the DB story IMO. It is just Gine isn’t a strong fighter. Her love and being kind have a big impact on the story that make it so if she was an average Saiyan Goku would never have made it off planet let alone get strong enough to achieve what he did in the series proper.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 31, 2022 20:36:30 GMT
To defend Toriyama's writing (and that's really a first coming from me in these years) at least that still makes Gine pointless in the grand scheme of things. She's still a nobody, even if she's a nice person. Hanasia being the strongest makes her important both narratively (parallel to Goku's strength) and in universe (she stands at the top of the Saiyan society). Make her the ACTUAL queen of the Saiyans and it just becomes... sad. That makes Goku the prince of Saiyans, not Vegeta. I disagree on Gine being pointless. In the changed origin story we learn Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it. His parents sent him there to save him from Freeza. It means Goku’s parents are now the sole reason he went to Earth. Gine being kind hearted implies Goku inherited that trait from her. Goku hitting his head and becoming kind is no longer a random event that happened by chance, but a trait Goku always had. Goku being kind or pure of heart is what allowed him to be receptive of Grandpa Gohan’s training at all, which opened the door to him learning from other martial arts masters. Goku being pure of heart is what gave him the chance to keep his body when he died and train with King Kai at all, which really is what allowed Goku to raise to the ranks of the elite and eventually surpass Vegeta on Namek. The story changes from Goku going to Earth, losing his memory, and becoming good by chance. It makes everything Goku achieve partially because of his parents’ actions. Goku’s parents choosing to save him out of love does really change the narrative and makes them important to the DB story IMO. It is just Gine isn’t a strong fighter. Her love and being kind have a big impact on the story that make it so if she was an average Saiyan Goku would never have made it off planet let alone get strong enough to achieve what he did in the series proper. I feel like you ignore Raditz with this. The story doesn't imply Goku's kind heart isn't a sole trait of his parents, Raditz was also their child and did not inherit Gine's good spirit or anything of the sorts. Like if you don't like this development fine but don't presume things of the story it itself does not say.
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Post by oung on Oct 31, 2022 20:42:27 GMT
I disagree on Gine being pointless. In the changed origin story we learn Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it. His parents sent him there to save him from Freeza. It means Goku’s parents are now the sole reason he went to Earth. Gine being kind hearted implies Goku inherited that trait from her. Goku hitting his head and becoming kind is no longer a random event that happened by chance, but a trait Goku always had. Goku being kind or pure of heart is what allowed him to be receptive of Grandpa Gohan’s training at all, which opened the door to him learning from other martial arts masters. Goku being pure of heart is what gave him the chance to keep his body when he died and train with King Kai at all, which really is what allowed Goku to raise to the ranks of the elite and eventually surpass Vegeta on Namek. The story changes from Goku going to Earth, losing his memory, and becoming good by chance. It makes everything Goku achieve partially because of his parents’ actions. Goku’s parents choosing to save him out of love does really change the narrative and makes them important to the DB story IMO. It is just Gine isn’t a strong fighter. Her love and being kind have a big impact on the story that make it so if she was an average Saiyan Goku would never have made it off planet let alone get strong enough to achieve what he did in the series proper. Pointless in the grand scheme of things. As in "it sure is convenient that Goku now has Superman's backstory!" and "it sure is convenient that Goku has a really nice mother who happens to share his pure heart!", but also "she's a shitter and the Saiyans wouldn't have batted an eye if she died because there are thousands of useless weak Saiyans like her, and some of them might actually be good people as well". Hanasia is literally the queen and the strongest. She holds far more weight based on the rules of this universe.
I'd call both badly written but Gine at least has that silver lining of being fodder
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 31, 2022 21:16:32 GMT
I disagree on Gine being pointless. In the changed origin story we learn Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it. His parents sent him there to save him from Freeza. It means Goku’s parents are now the sole reason he went to Earth. Gine being kind hearted implies Goku inherited that trait from her. Goku hitting his head and becoming kind is no longer a random event that happened by chance, but a trait Goku always had. Goku being kind or pure of heart is what allowed him to be receptive of Grandpa Gohan’s training at all, which opened the door to him learning from other martial arts masters. Goku being pure of heart is what gave him the chance to keep his body when he died and train with King Kai at all, which really is what allowed Goku to raise to the ranks of the elite and eventually surpass Vegeta on Namek. The story changes from Goku going to Earth, losing his memory, and becoming good by chance. It makes everything Goku achieve partially because of his parents’ actions. Goku’s parents choosing to save him out of love does really change the narrative and makes them important to the DB story IMO. It is just Gine isn’t a strong fighter. Her love and being kind have a big impact on the story that make it so if she was an average Saiyan Goku would never have made it off planet let alone get strong enough to achieve what he did in the series proper. Pointless in the grand scheme of things. As in "it sure is convenient that Goku now has Superman's backstory!" and "it sure is convenient that Goku has a really nice mother who happens to share his pure heart!", but also "she's a shitter and the Saiyans wouldn't have batted an eye if she died because there are thousands of useless weak Saiyans like her, and some of them might actually be good people as well". Hanasia is literally the queen and the strongest. She holds far more weight based on the rules of this universe.
I'd call both badly written but Gine at least has that silver lining of being fodder
I cannot even agree Gine or even Bardock are pointless in the grand scheme of things. In the revisited origin if either one of his parents had been typical Saiyans Kakarot would have died on Vegeta with the others. It gives them this elevated status they didn’t have before. I really do not think Gine being weaker makes her better than Hanasia. She still felt like a special Saiyan because of her good heart. The story itself reminds us average Saiyans usually aren’t that kind or caring toward their young when she is even surprised Bardock is trying to save Kakarot. It just feels like Toriyama made Goku’s parents more crucial and important to the story than they originally were and it is similar to what Salagir did. Where Salagir he inadvertently did this with strength, but Toriyama did it with their nature. In a way fans can interpret Toei/Salagir interpretation of making Goku’s parents strong be a reason he got strong than Goku’s parents being nice or kinder than average Saiyan is the reason for Goku being alive and possibly his personality. For me I don’t really think Hanasia is worst than Gine. Ironically enough I think I find Salagir’s interpretation better just because his at least doesn’t white wash the Saiyans. That is just my opinion.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 31, 2022 21:30:38 GMT
I disagree on Gine being pointless. In the changed origin story we learn Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it. His parents sent him there to save him from Freeza. It means Goku’s parents are now the sole reason he went to Earth. Gine being kind hearted implies Goku inherited that trait from her. Goku hitting his head and becoming kind is no longer a random event that happened by chance, but a trait Goku always had. Goku being kind or pure of heart is what allowed him to be receptive of Grandpa Gohan’s training at all, which opened the door to him learning from other martial arts masters. Goku being pure of heart is what gave him the chance to keep his body when he died and train with King Kai at all, which really is what allowed Goku to raise to the ranks of the elite and eventually surpass Vegeta on Namek. The story changes from Goku going to Earth, losing his memory, and becoming good by chance. It makes everything Goku achieve partially because of his parents’ actions. Goku’s parents choosing to save him out of love does really change the narrative and makes them important to the DB story IMO. It is just Gine isn’t a strong fighter. Her love and being kind have a big impact on the story that make it so if she was an average Saiyan Goku would never have made it off planet let alone get strong enough to achieve what he did in the series proper. I feel like you ignore Raditz with this. The story doesn't imply Goku's kind heart isn't a sole trait of his parents, Raditz was also their child and did not inherit Gine's good spirit or anything of the sorts. Like if you don't like this development fine but don't presume things of the story it itself does not say. I didn’t ignore Raditz, but it is just clear to me he didn’t inherit his mother’s kind heart. Nothing in the narrative showed Raditz was anything but an average Saiyan unlike Goku. Goku’s kind heart was remarked as unusual by other Saiyans. Whereas before we were just told Goku became kind after he hits his head. It seemed like a freak accident. It is very telling in the revised origin Gine is shown to be compassionate, against the norm for Saiyans. It feels less like a chance Goku just became compassionate and more like if t was always in him. Of course a retcon created decades after the original story was made so there are bond to be. In the same one shot we had Gine herself acknowledging how weird it is Bardock cares about Kakarot when Saiyans usually don’t. It is felt like Toriyama was acknowledging this isn’t how he originally wrote things, but in typical Toriayama fashion just kind of shrugged it off. Of course I hear Super manga is developing Bardock more and explaining how he developed empathy so this might become a moot point later on or at least the Bardock being different from the norm will be.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 31, 2022 23:45:10 GMT
I feel like you ignore Raditz with this. The story doesn't imply Goku's kind heart isn't a sole trait of his parents, Raditz was also their child and did not inherit Gine's good spirit or anything of the sorts. Like if you don't like this development fine but don't presume things of the story it itself does not say. I didn’t ignore Raditz, but it is just clear to me he didn’t inherit his mother’s kind heart. Nothing in the narrative showed Raditz was anything but an average Saiyan unlike Goku. Goku’s kind heart was remarked as unusual by other Saiyans. Whereas before we were just told Goku became kind after he hits his head. It seemed like a freak accident. It is very telling in the revised origin Gine is shown to be compassionate, against the norm for Saiyans. It feels less like a chance Goku just became compassionate and more like if t was always in him. Of course a retcon created decades after the original story was made so there are bond to be. In the same one shot we had Gine herself acknowledging how weird it is Bardock cares about Kakarot when Saiyans usually don’t. It is felt like Toriyama was acknowledging this isn’t how he originally wrote things, but in typical Toriayama fashion just kind of shrugged it off. Of course I hear Super manga is developing Bardock more and explaining how he developed empathy so this might become a moot point later on or at least the Bardock being different from the norm will be. If we are to be technical, the Saiyan aspect of Goku in general was a retcon to Goku's character. One introduced rather suddenly as the retcon to Goku's parents, my general point was more in spite of Gine's kind spirit being a trait she has, it was not suggested in the story that is the reason Goku became what he was. One does not just take kindness from their parent, we see this with Raditz and we even see other kind Saiyans like Broly so it isn't even extended to just her. It over simplifies the situation and makes Gine out to be a more significant figure than she actually is, as really her purpose is just to help drive Bardock's arc as well as add a touch of tragedy to Goku's amnesia. For the record Bardock's story and how his family affects his empathy is being developed in the manga. IN practice it isn't much different from his Bardock Special self: Both are ruthless killers (We see in Super Bardock participate in a planetary genocide) who have a soft attachment for something. Bardock's crew in the original special, or his family in the new canon. And this conflict by how he's always been vs. these new feelings are explored.
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