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Post by godjacob on Jun 16, 2021 21:07:18 GMT
Can you also find that old power tier chart that was around in the early DBM days? XD Old power tier chart? 🤔 Doesn't bring any bells. Can you tell me more about it, so maybe I can remember look for it for you? Was something like a chart introduced early on in the tournament run which gave a rough estimate of the various fighters & spectators and what tier they fell under. Second I already said them being born low class means literally nothing when both broke the class system anyway and became elites by the time Goku and Raditz were born making that a moot point for me personally. Maybe Vegeta wasn'y paying attention to them, he was only 6 after all. Vegeta? Not paying attention to someone else's power? Which character are we talking about again? XD Third, for crying out loud nobody is "born" an elite? Are you kidding me? THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT! Goku was considered a low class nobody as an infant and sent off to some no name world to conquer it given his low status. Vegeta, as contrast, was considered the elite of his people at birth and granted all the privileges that came with it. Does Salagir member nothing about the Saiyan Saga? Lol! XD Do you want me to save this "question" for the next Twitch stream? 🤣 Sure why not lol
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Post by عمار on Jun 16, 2021 21:19:28 GMT
Was something like a chart introduced early on in the tournament run which gave a rough estimate of the various fighters & spectators and what tier they fell under. You got my curiosity, I will look for it. But I don't remember I saw such a thing. Was it posted by Salagir? Vegeta? Not paying attention to someone else's power? Which character are we talking about again? Lol! good point. XD But maybe he assumed they were always elites?
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Post by godjacob on Jun 16, 2021 21:25:14 GMT
Was something like a chart introduced early on in the tournament run which gave a rough estimate of the various fighters & spectators and what tier they fell under. You got my curiosity, I will look for it. But I don't remember I saw such a thing. Was it posted by Salagir? Look it was years ago I wish I could tell you more but I can't XD I think it on the main comic itself but I cannot tell you with confidence. All I know was I used that chart once to try and draft up my own custom DBM roster on Word but that computer and info was lost years ago. Vegeta? Not paying attention to someone else's power? Which character are we talking about again? Lol! good point. XD But maybe he assumed they were always elites? I mean Vegeta wants to be the strongest of the Saiyans. Having someone, at one point considered "low class" be above him would be a perpetual salt in the wound. Having someone above him among his people in general would be a sore spot. Not something he'd just "lol okay" accept.
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Post by عمار on Jun 16, 2021 21:48:40 GMT
Look it was years ago I wish I could tell you more but I can't XD I think it on the main comic itself but I cannot tell you with confidence. All I know was I used that chart once to try and draft up my own custom DBM roster on Word but that computer and info was lost years ago. Was it this one? It's on page 278I mean Vegeta wants to be the strongest of the Saiyans. Having someone, at one point considered "low class" be above him would be a perpetual salt in the wound. Having someone above him among his people in general would be a sore spot. Not something he'd just "lol okay" accept. Like I said maybe he assumed they were always elites, which is why his view didn't change on the whole "low class/elites" thing.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 16, 2021 21:55:57 GMT
Look it was years ago I wish I could tell you more but I can't XD I think it on the main comic itself but I cannot tell you with confidence. All I know was I used that chart once to try and draft up my own custom DBM roster on Word but that computer and info was lost years ago. Was it this one? It's on page 278 I think it was more an official thing rather than a fan comment, but do recall things like "in-between tier" so might be it. Only it had more names on it. I mean Vegeta wants to be the strongest of the Saiyans. Having someone, at one point considered "low class" be above him would be a perpetual salt in the wound. Having someone above him among his people in general would be a sore spot. Not something he'd just "lol okay" accept. Like I said maybe he assumed they were always elites, which is why his view didn't change on the whole "low class/elites" thing. Which is dumb, for a number of reasons, first being Hanasia (Given her whole "excuse" for being so strong was her point to prove story) would like hide her "past" as a low class Saiyan. Or Vegeta not being able to know of them, I think he'd be interested to know how this random woman outside his family is above him in power. It ends up making the whole thing more of a mess than if, say, they decided not to make Goku's parents the two most special and awesome Saiyans ever.
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Post by عمار on Jun 16, 2021 22:07:38 GMT
I think it was more an official thing rather than a fan comment, but do recall things like "in-between tier" so might be it. Only it had more names on it. So, it was a picture with names in it & everything? 🤔
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Post by godjacob on Jun 16, 2021 22:10:04 GMT
I think it was more an official thing rather than a fan comment, but do recall things like "in-between tier" so might be it. Only it had more names on it. So, it was a picture with names in it & everything? 🤔 Look I can't remember it was like a full chart kinda thing. But I cannot tell more than that. Sorry, but appreciate the effort you've done all the same, don't give yourself a headache over this lol
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 8, 2021 22:26:51 GMT
I finally found it: linkAnd according to Salagir, saiyans are not born elite: linkSo, Hanasia was not born elite. But it does not say if she was consider a low class warrior or not. 🤔 Vegeta was 6,500 units when he was 6 years old. We can assume that in 2 years he was above 9,000 units (since he said he surpass his father when he was a kid) but still weaker than Hanasia who was above 12,500 after two years. godjacob Son Pan BlazeThanks for posting this. I think I understand the changes Salagir made. It is ridiculous for Saiyans to base their strength on when they were born and use it to determine how strong they will get. I think Salagir changing that elites are determined by their later achievements and power makes more sense. At the same time I think the point of the Saiyan caste system was meant to be ridiculous. By determining ability and power based on initial birth has some serious blind spots. Vegeta’s speeches about why he should be the best and strongest often boils down to this beliefs and well can sound ridiculous because there isn’t really a basis to it beyond I was born stronger therefore I should always be stronger than Kakarot. I think when DBM made the changes to that it sort of missed the point of it. Caste system sort of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as sorts I felt like. Raditz and Vegeta are good examples. Raditz was treated as low level and he believes it so it impacts how he fights. Raditz is cowardly and only fights opponents he knows he will win. He never truly challenges himself and that is a big reason why he stayed very weak IMO. Vegeta is similar before he met Goku. Vegeta was born strong and praised for being one of the most gifted Saiyans ever. Vegeta ends up never truly pushing himself to go as far as he could because of this mistaken belief that no other Saiyan can ever hope to reach his level so he assumes he is the peak of his race. It is only until Goku disproves that idea that he truly starts training his ass off and starts living up to his potential. While Salagir is trying to make the Saiyan caste system make more reasonable that he might have missed some unintended nuances of how it kept the Saiyan race as a whole from achieving their potential. The changes to the caste system don’t really change the story much. Bardock could still beat King Vegeta to take the throne even if was still deemed low class warrior despite having gotten enough zenkai to surpass most elite born class Saiyans. Hanasia could have even still been queen and the strongest even if she wasn’t born an elite warrior.
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Post by godjacob on Aug 4, 2021 16:51:48 GMT
You know, upon reflection, while I still think Hanasia is a giant Mary Sue (Bra comparable) and her power is an overall mistake in DBM, I think she might've been more tolerable not as Goku's mother or even Vegeta's mother (Even if power wise it'd make the most sense) but Turles mother.
She'd still retain her low class origin, her strength wouldn't affect Turles story compared to Goku/Kakarot, and it would actually allow Turles to be part of DBM proper. And could possibly expand on why Turles looks similar to Goku when "low class Saiyans look alike" clearly does not cut it.
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Post by عمار on Aug 6, 2021 19:16:09 GMT
godjacob Son Pan I got something to share with you about Hanasia. In last stream I asked Salagir about the topics that we talked about in this thread. And it seems that me & him share the same opinion. Here's his answers: Q. Was Hanasia (Goku's mother) born an elite? or was she born a low class warrior who then become an elite warrior like Bardock?
Salagir: Well, as she said herself, there were no scouter. So, there were no elite/low class bullshit. So, we don't really know if she's was an elite or not. That's actually the problem the scouter made. They turned the society into classes, thinking that people could not evolve, but actually they can. So, in this regard, talking about elites & low classes like that was a very bad idea. And that shown by the fact that Bardock who was consider low class become an elite...well to me he was not a low class, he was quite strong, Goku was consider low class, but you see how he become. So, was Hanasia low class warrior? No idea. (1:19:14 min) Q. Some people think by making both Hanasia(Goku's mother) & Bardock elites, it "cheap" Goku's achievements. Like it make it looks it was thanks to his "genes" & not his hard works that he as strong as he is right now. They think it will be better if both his parents or at least his mom was a nobody, so it doesn't feel that his success was thanks to them & not his hard work & training. What is your take about all of this?
Salagir: There has been tons of debates about that. There's a lie about Goku being a low class warrior. Compared to Vegeta when he arrive on earth, Goku was a low class warrior, but in reality Goku has been a winner all his life. If you re-read dragon ball the manga, all the enemies he encountered, he destroyed them with huge easiness, it's super easy for him. The first time his life got little & I say little difficulty was against Master Roshi in the tournament, all the other time he destroys his enemies with ease. And then the second time was against Tao Pai Pai, & that was volume 7. So, the saying that "Goku is the guy with overcoming his problems" is not true. Goku was born saiyan. He's super strong, he's sees kamehameha done once & he's using it, & he was the first guy on earth to master it so fast. And every time Goku sees a new technique, he copy it immediately. And then people are like "Oh look! Buu can see a technique & he copy it. 😑" yes! Everyone can do that in DBZ guys! So, Goku is not guy who was super bad & trained to be super good. Goku was super good. Goku is a born talented genius of fighting just like Vegeta. And I don't really care who's his parents are. Now, why did I put Hanasia as a strong warrior? Well, it was mostly to show how Bardock wanted to have strong children, so he took a strong mate, & hoped to have strong children, & he does not. He used his scouter & saw them as a weak & failures. So, I did that in order to do an impact on that. And also, I did that because I wanted a strong female characters & we don't have enough in DBZ. But in terms of "genetics"? Not really important, I will not make that super important "If the parents are strong then the children are strong" no, I don't care about that. (1:21:12 min) Q. Some think that Hanasia(Goku's mother) fit to be Vegeta's mother more than Goku's for what she is; being an elite & all. What do you think?
Salagir: ...What do you think? I don't know. Once again, "genetics" are not very important. (1:25:27 min) So, what do you guys think of his answers?
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Post by godjacob on Aug 6, 2021 20:34:19 GMT
Again whether Hanasia started off as an elite or not is never the point, the point is not only is she and elite when Kakarot is born but the strongest Saiyan of her era. Even more than Bardock or King Vegeta. Second saying Goku "destroyed" all his enemies in DB manga would be a major exaggeration. Goku was comically stronger than the Pilaf Gang and first arc villains, but Krillin (An earthing given the same training he had been) was able to somewhat keep up with him in the 21st Budokai, and he lost to Roshi in the finals with Roshi even managing to stop his Oozaru rampage. General Blue, a Red Ribbon Army guy, was able to present a physical challenge to Goku and Tao effortlessly destroyed him leading Goku the need to seek out Korin's aid. Tien (Another earthling) beat Goku in the 22nd Budokai. Tambourine, one of King Piccolo's servants (WIth even prime King Piccolo being on the weak side of the Namekian scale), was able to beat upon Kid Goku who again needed training to overcome. Then King Piccolo nearly killed him as an old man, requiring the Ultra Divine Water to close the gap on him. He and Piccolo Jr. were dead even with Goku winning by the skin of his teeth, and either of those two were fodder to Raditz who was among the low end of the Saiyan race. Even if you ignore how they compare to Saiyans were Goku very much was a weakling and a joke, Goku was never presented as the be all to end all in Dragon Ball especially when the story began to get serious with the King Piccolo Arc. Goku struggled, Goku lost to foes the Saiyans would've written off as nobodies and Goku needed to train and sometimes get power ups just to compete and overcome them. Even if there was no overt underdog element in the original DB Goku still was someone who had to better himself and improve to meet rising challenges. It's Dragon Ball's principle lesson. Roshi flat out spells it out. Does that fit a character who was just "born a winner in life"? Goku was a strong boy in the woods, but he was far from the best on Earth and needed training, near death experiences, struggles and some divine intervention in order to rise to become that by the end of the original DB. It's not so much a question of genetics, but it is more how just giving Goku the two strongest Saiyans ever as his parents does cheapen this story. And of course utterly tanks Vegeta's but I don't think Salagir has much respect for Vegeta to begin with so that is expected.
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Post by oung on Aug 7, 2021 4:50:44 GMT
That's well put godjacob. More than Salagir not respecting Vegeta, it doesn't feel like Salagir is respecting Dragon Ball. Goku's mother? Yeah let's make that. Let's make her an elite because uh... yeah strong women. Damn that Toriyama for not putting them in Dragon Ball - don't worry we can flood our little fanfiction with them. Goku's speech about a loser defeating an elite? Who the fuck cares? We can overanalyze DB and try to push some dumb takes about Goku being portrayed as a talented genius from birth and accordingly rewrite his parents like this!
Even Bardock was pretty weak until he got his powerups. And even after his powerups, all he could do was watch and suffer his fate. That's what made him compelling and especially well written, he didn't make Goku special. Goku became good through a beneficial coincidence, and Goku became strong thanks to what he lived. You just DON'T make him the son of the two strongest living Saiyans (well, top 3 actually). It's storytelling 101, which seems to be too much to expect from DBM.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 7, 2021 5:54:41 GMT
I’m happy to hear his rationale for why he made Hanasia as strong as he did. I can see the whole Bardock mating with someone strong to produce strong children. I’m in middle between Salagir’s Goku’s always been a born winner and godjacob’s Goku’s being a low level warrior who got strong is essential to his character beliefs. In earlier posts on here I explained how I felt it was sort of added too late in Goku’s development to truly ring as essential to me. At the same time I don’t think Goku defeated everyone with as much ease Salagir described either. I do think Goku needed to train hard and needed certain circumstances to be as strong he was. I just don’t think Goku being a low level Saiyan who surpassed an elite was all that special. To me Goku did what he always did trained hard to surpass his limits.
I do believe Salagir when he said he wasn’t trying to make this a genes thing. Nothing is wrong with Hanasia’s personality. It just feels weird Goku had to have two parents that were the among the strongest of the race. My complaints more stemmed from it felt like Hanasia had too many hats to wear for us to properly get to know her and I don’t think being the queen and strongest Saiyan really added much to hear character. It felt like that trait could have gone to say Vegeta’s mom to me. That is just me.
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Post by عمار on Aug 7, 2021 14:48:05 GMT
godjacob oung I will have to side with Salagir on this one. You both are looking at it from "saiyans" point of view, while I & Salagir look at it from "humans" point of view. Yes, compare to the saiyans, Goku was a weak low class warrior, & all the people defeated him (by ease or not) were nothing compare to even the likes of Raditz who by himself is consider a weakling among the saiyans & to the Frost demons soldiers. But compare to humans? Yes, he's this genius fighter who certainly is not normal & has a lot of potential to become stronger. And I have to say that the "human" point of view is the right one. Because Goku was never treated as an underdog in the OG series. Second saying Goku "destroyed" all his enemies in DB manga would be a major exaggeration. Goku was comically stronger than the Pilaf Gang and first arc villains, but Krillin (An earthing given the same training he had been) was able to somewhat keep up with him in the 21st Budokai, and he lost to Roshi in the finals with Roshi even managing to stop his Oozaru rampage. General Blue, a Red Ribbon Army guy, was able to present a physical challenge to Goku and Tao effortlessly destroyed him leading Goku the need to seek out Korin's aid. Tien (Another earthling) beat Goku in the 22nd Budokai. Tambourine, one of King Piccolo's servants (WIth even prime King Piccolo being on the weak side of the Namekian scale), was able to beat upon Kid Goku who again needed training to overcome. Then King Piccolo nearly killed him as an old man, requiring the Ultra Divine Water to close the gap on him. He and Piccolo Jr. were dead even with Goku winning by the skin of his teeth, and either of those two were fodder to Raditz who was among the low end of the Saiyan race.The problem is that you're comparing future villains from DBZ to the villains of DB. When Krillin was able to keep up with Goku in the tournament, it wasn't to be viewed as Goku being weak, it was to be viewed as Krillin being strong. When Roshi barely defeated Goku, it was not to show how weak Goku is, but how badass Roshi was. General Blue presenting a challenge to Goku is tell us that he's not a pushover. Tao effortlessly beating Goku was a shock & to show the audience that he's a really powerful opponent. Tien beating Goku was by luck in 22nd Budokai, and again it was to show Tien strength, not Goku's weakness. Tambourine was consider strong opponent & manage to kill some of competitors of the last three World Martial Arts Tournaments, and one of them was Krillin. And lest not forget he only manage to beat Goku because the latter was exhausted from his fight against Tien, but after that he killed him easily. And King Piccolo defeated him when he was old, you were not supposed to roll your eye & "Goku lost to a guy a lot weaker than Raditz.🙄" because again (I feel I'm repeating myself a lot) this shows how much powerful King Piccolo is, not how weak Goku is. Raditz & all the villains from DBZ didn't exist at that time, & the whole Goku is an alien wasn't a thing either. He was consider a very strong "weird" human. Even if you ignore how they compare to Saiyans were Goku very much was a weakling and a joke, Goku was never presented as the be all to end all in Dragon Ball especially when the story began to get serious with the King Piccolo Arc. Goku struggled, Goku lost to foes the Saiyans would've written off as nobodies and Goku needed to train and sometimes get power ups just to compete and overcome them. Even if there was no overt underdog element in the original DB Goku still was someone who had to better himself and improve to meet rising challenges. I like how you used you're not gonna compare them to the saiyan but ended up comparing them. XD Anyway, yes, I agree that Goku was not this "Word Strongest Man" that Salagir is describing, but he's definitely was this weakling underdog that you're making him out to be. Goku was one of the strongest people on earth at young age, & only few people mange to beat him (& way fewer beaten him with ease). It's Dragon Ball's principle lesson. Roshi flat out spells it out. Does that fit a character who was just "born a winner in life"? Goku was a strong boy in the woods, but he was far from the best on Earth and needed training, near death experiences, struggles and some divine intervention in order to rise to become that by the end of the original DB. It's not so much a question of genetics, but it is more how just giving Goku the two strongest Saiyans ever as his parents does cheapen this story. And of course utterly tanks Vegeta's but I don't think Salagir has much respect for Vegeta to begin with so that is expected. It doesn't fit a character who was "weak low class warrior" or "underdog" either. Funny enough, Master Roshi saying "I can't believe how much I suffered just to be able to say that" is a prove of Goku's strength & not his weakness. Goku's parent being super strong his not cheapen his story because he was not this weakling who have to prove himself. I actually like the idea that Goku's strength has nothing to do with his parents being strong or not. But it's just like I said, it's how you look at it.
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Post by godjacob on Aug 7, 2021 16:48:11 GMT
godjacob oung I will have to side with Salagir on this one. You both are looking at it from "saiyans" point of view, while I & Salagir look at it from "humans" point of view. Yes, compare to the saiyans, Goku was a weak low class warrior, & all the people defeated him (by ease or not) were nothing compare to even the likes of Raditz who by himself is consider a weakling among the saiyans & to the Frost demons soldiers. But compare to humans? Yes, he's this genius fighter who certainly is not normal & has a lot of potential to become stronger. And I have to say that the "human" point of view is the right one. Because Goku was never treated as an underdog in the OG series. Second saying Goku "destroyed" all his enemies in DB manga would be a major exaggeration. Goku was comically stronger than the Pilaf Gang and first arc villains, but Krillin (An earthing given the same training he had been) was able to somewhat keep up with him in the 21st Budokai, and he lost to Roshi in the finals with Roshi even managing to stop his Oozaru rampage. General Blue, a Red Ribbon Army guy, was able to present a physical challenge to Goku and Tao effortlessly destroyed him leading Goku the need to seek out Korin's aid. Tien (Another earthling) beat Goku in the 22nd Budokai. Tambourine, one of King Piccolo's servants (WIth even prime King Piccolo being on the weak side of the Namekian scale), was able to beat upon Kid Goku who again needed training to overcome. Then King Piccolo nearly killed him as an old man, requiring the Ultra Divine Water to close the gap on him. He and Piccolo Jr. were dead even with Goku winning by the skin of his teeth, and either of those two were fodder to Raditz who was among the low end of the Saiyan race.The problem is that you're comparing future villains from DBZ to the villains of DB. When Krillin was able to keep up with Goku in the tournament, it wasn't to be viewed as Goku being weak, it was to be viewed as Krillin being strong. When Roshi barely defeated Goku, it was not to show how weak Goku is, but how badass Roshi was. General Blue presenting a challenge to Goku is tell us that he's not a pushover. Tao effortlessly beating Goku was a shock & to show the audience that he's a really powerful opponent. Tien beating Goku was by luck in 22nd Budokai, and again it was to show Tien strength, not Goku's weakness. Tambourine was consider strong opponent & manage to kill some of competitors of the last three World Martial Arts Tournaments, and one of them was Krillin. And lest not forget he only manage to beat Goku because the latter was exhausted from his fight against Tien, but after that he killed him easily. And King Piccolo defeated him when he was old, you were not supposed to roll your eye & "Goku lost to a guy a lot weaker than Raditz.🙄" because again (I feel I'm repeating myself a lot) this shows how much powerful King Piccolo is, not how weak Goku is. Raditz & all the villains from DBZ didn't exist at that time, & the whole Goku is an alien wasn't a thing either. He was consider a very strong "weird" human. Even if you ignore how they compare to Saiyans were Goku very much was a weakling and a joke, Goku was never presented as the be all to end all in Dragon Ball especially when the story began to get serious with the King Piccolo Arc. Goku struggled, Goku lost to foes the Saiyans would've written off as nobodies and Goku needed to train and sometimes get power ups just to compete and overcome them. Even if there was no overt underdog element in the original DB Goku still was someone who had to better himself and improve to meet rising challenges. I like how you used you're not gonna compare them to the saiyan but ended up comparing them. XD Anyway, yes, I agree that Goku was not this "Word Strongest Man" that Salagir is describing, but he's definitely was this weakling underdog that you're making him out to be. Goku was one of the strongest people on earth at young age, & only few people mange to beat him (& way fewer beaten him with ease). It's Dragon Ball's principle lesson. Roshi flat out spells it out. Does that fit a character who was just "born a winner in life"? Goku was a strong boy in the woods, but he was far from the best on Earth and needed training, near death experiences, struggles and some divine intervention in order to rise to become that by the end of the original DB. It's not so much a question of genetics, but it is more how just giving Goku the two strongest Saiyans ever as his parents does cheapen this story. And of course utterly tanks Vegeta's but I don't think Salagir has much respect for Vegeta to begin with so that is expected. It doesn't fit a character who was "weak low class warrior" or "underdog" either. Funny enough, Master Roshi saying "I can't believe how much I suffered just to be able to say that" is a prove of Goku's strength & not his weakness. Goku's parent being super strong his not cheapen his story because he was not this weakling who have to prove himself. I actually like the idea that Goku's strength has nothing to do with his parents being strong or not. But it's just like I said, it's how you look at it. And that is fine, I don't personally care how anyone sees it it is simply how I see it and my disagreement with Salagir's view of things. But "human" POV? Most of my reply focused on the original DB which is human POV, but you cannot ignore the series does expand to a much larger scope for the second half+ of its run which that human POV is quite small in comparison to the larger universe. Focus on how DB presented Goku is fine (And what I felt I did most of my reply) but ignoring what later DB introduced to claim Goku was always this super strong OP guy is only looking at half the story to. The point of Goku's Saiyan background was to recontextualize how we see the original DB events, how those "amazing" feats he did as a child. I mean, it has to be given the main subject we're talking about is Goku's SAIYAN background and his parents, the main topic of this page. But let's focus on that human POV since that is all that matters it seems. The same human POV that paints Goku as strong, comically strong, but not something beyond everyone else. The same human POV that had Goku lose to a human twice in consecutive Budokai, the same human POV that had Goku left for dead on 3 occasions (One by a human), the same human POV that had Goku grow not because he was just naturally superior to his peers, but because he trained even harder than them (And even got to train with God in Kami to cross to the top spot at the end of DB). I can go on but my point isn't that Goku was actually this chump this whole time even in the original DB, my point was Goku was considered strong in DB but not the strongest and the Earth always provided someone Goku struggled with or needed help or special aid in order to overcome even in the earlier story arcs. Those losses and struggles are not to show Goku is a chump, or anything to that effect but that Goku in spite of what people lile Bulma believed was not the strongest guy around and still had people comfortably above him. That is why Roshi entered the tournament, his joke comment of being in pain doesn't negate the original premise of wanting to avoid Goku getting big headed for thinking he was the top of the world already when there was stronger foes waiting out there. People stronger than Roshi himself (And the fight was only barley a win because Bulma saved Goku from being hypnotized, the full moon came out to trigger Oozaru to break out of Roshi's paralyzing technique and Roshi wasting most of his power blowing up the moon but that semantics). The overt underdog thing was a Saiyan Saga invention, but Goku not being the strongest around and having others even other Earthlings above him even in the OG Dragon Ball was not. And the point is, if you don't want Goku's parents to matter to Goku's power, if you don't want to make it a genetics thing than going out of your way to show Hanasia was not merely a strong Saiyan but THE STRONGEST Saiyan around, giving her cool aciton moment and feat over and over again and talking up how badass she is doesn't help. It only draws attention back to Goku's parents and does suggest Goku got as strong as he is in part because of them. It brings attention back to itself, even if the story does turn around and try to argue "Well yes Hanasia is cool but i-ignore her she has nothing to do with Goku's power." And that just feels like wanting your cake and eating it to.
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Post by oung on Aug 7, 2021 17:18:21 GMT
He wasn't an underdog, but he wasn't the son of the two strongest Saiyans, who both ruled the planet at some point. This description sounds like a bad OC from a bad fanfiction. Read the page above with Roshi telling Goku that there's always someone stronger. Goku was humbled multiple times, even after beating Piccolo Daimao he gets humbled by Popo.
It's not that DB is about an underdog, it's that DB is about martial arts and getting stronger. There's a dynamic here that obviously doesn't work well with "MC special snowflake son of the best of the best". Goku was never weak, but Goku always kept improving and didn't start at the top.
Moreover, Goku being a good person was a fluke, and Goku being strong was a result of his relationships with others. Vegeta started super strong, Goku traveled around the world and learned from so many people in order to become the man he was. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there's a way to reason that both Hanasia and Baddack being the strongest and most important Saiyans doesn't invalidate it... Fine, we're back at a neutral balance, but what does it add? Generic cocky strong woman character? We already got these in DBM. Why did Salagir feel at ease writing Goku's mom instead of just stepping away from this sensible area? It was bad the first day and it aged even worse. Toriyama wrote Gine, who shares one of Hanasia's issues (being good as a parallel to Goku being good, while Hanasia's strenght is a parallel to Goku becoming the strongest) but at least isn't some super important OC that ruled the planet. Gine was a nobody, which is EXACTLY what Goku's mother should be.
tldr Hanasia is a trainwreck. Remember Mary Sue? Yeah you got her right here*
*inb4 "no you don't understand, she got gored by Broly so she isn't a sue!"
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Dec 12, 2021 22:03:24 GMT
Good points here. What I meant about Goku being a slight underdog is that he was quite the weakling compared to Vegeta and even the rest of the Saiyan race at the start of Z when Raditz first arrived. I know he rose past this goal and surpassed Vegeta before long but even then he had his ass beat on more than one occasion in DB. If you look at his power level before the Vegeta fight and his god training, he was a chump in comparison to anyone not from Earth. Let alone that Freezas mid to low tier soldiers should have been able to murder him without much effort.
I’ll admit that during Dragon Ball and even later/most parts of Z he came off as more of a prodigy than an underdog but even then he did have to train his ass off on a few occasions and even only discovered SSJ3 for example because of being in the afterlife and having the benefit of an undead body. Not to mention what ever other advantages that he may of been granted for training while dead. Compared to say Vegeta who was stuck on Earth, training in a gravity room.
Bit off topic but i’v always sorta thought that Goku being able to train with the gods/other worlds best basically non stop while he was dead wasn’t all that fair compared to what most other characters in DBZ had to work with for training. Not that Goku didn’t earn it and only bringing it up for comparison but no other top tier Saiyan/fighter got this same privilege as him to do this sort of training. Other than the Humans a little bit in filler I guess (should have gave them Kaioken). My point was more about how weak he was when Raditz first arrived and how he had to train his ass off to get past even basic Freeza soldier levels at first.
That’s why I thought his mother being a supreme elite seemingly even though he was originally thought to be born from weaklings is weird. His parents being low class nobody’s fits better with Vegetas OG analysis of Goku imo is all I’m saying. Bardock or his mother shooting up to elite levels could work alright I think if they’ve been beat near to death in many missions/wounded heavily quite a bit as Bardock was shown to be in his movie special. Not just no real explanation of her being stronger than King Vegeta all of the sudden for some reason. As I said before not saying that her or Bardock that obviously raised his power through near death Zenkais couldn’t be a thing. Just that Goku coming from op parents that surpassed even King Vegeta in this comic was a little much. I know Vegeta is an arrogant SOB but if Gokus mom was that strong he shouldn’t have been that surprised about Goku being able to increase in power that much compared to him originally.
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Post by Son Pan on Mar 23, 2022 22:15:26 GMT
I do find it interesting how the concept of Goku’s mother produced two extreme character concepts on the opposite end of the spectrum. We got DBM with Hanasia, as one of the strongest Saiyans, eventually became the strongest and queen of the whole race on one side. On the other side we got DB Minus with Gine, as not just one of the weakest Saiyans but a non fighter who is good natured and hinted Goku’s good nature came from her. Neither fans nor the creator ever saw Goku’s mother as an average Saiyan warrior.
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Post by baconfam on May 16, 2022 0:03:50 GMT
To be blunt honest with you people:
I never liked Hanasia.
She is the perfect embodiment of the phrase "Tryhard"
And by that I mean the creators try so hard to make her cool/edgy/badass and it just makes me cringe. She's about as irritating as Bra tbchwy.
I'm not a fan and dislike her beings pushed as some badass all the time.
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Post by oung on Oct 13, 2022 1:01:36 GMT
I do find it interesting how the concept of Goku’s mother produced two extreme character concepts on the opposite end of the spectrum. We got DBM with Hanasia, as one of the strongest Saiyans, eventually became the strongest and queen of the whole race on one side. On the other side we got DB Minus with Gine, as not just one of the weakest Saiyans but a non fighter who is good natured and hinted Goku’s good nature came from her. Neither fans nor the creator ever saw Goku’s mother as an average Saiyan warrior. To defend Toriyama's writing (and that's really a first coming from me in these years) at least that still makes Gine pointless in the grand scheme of things. She's still a nobody, even if she's a nice person. Hanasia being the strongest makes her important both narratively (parallel to Goku's strength) and in universe (she stands at the top of the Saiyan society). Make her the ACTUAL queen of the Saiyans and it just becomes... sad. That makes Goku the prince of Saiyans, not Vegeta.
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