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Post by Ashanark on Feb 27, 2020 20:39:27 GMT
Toyotaro's still in the lead for most panels per page, I believe... One small thing I want to point out real quick: if you look through all the pages Axalon has posted so far, you will see that every time, Toriyama and Asura's panels make an even rectangular border. The panels differ in size and shape, and in Asura's case words and figures slip out of them a bit, but so far, the top and bottom panels of Toriyama's and Asura's pages make an even line. Now look at Toyotaro. Look at 17 running up to that dude and kicking him off the ring. Look at 17 dodging that guy's punch, then laying on the ground and kicking him over his head. Or the next page, where the guy tries to climb back up on to the ring. Or the page after that, where Frieza kicks him off. Or the page after that, with 18's hilariously awkward and unnatural leg-lift pose in that page-ending panel. Toyotaro's bottom panels often don't line up and sometimes his top panels, too. Intentional or not, this often gives an amateurish feel to his page layouts. Like you're just left hanging or something, or he couldn't be bothered to draw .2 more inches of panel. It's subtle but it's interesting. Also compare the level of detail on Piccolo's cloak in that last panel, or Future Trunks' jacket and belts, to 18 and her featureless blob opponent. On the whole, I went into this comparison weeks ago with this impression, and I still have it... Right now Toriyama's panels look best because both Asura and Toyotaro's have blank-white backgrounds this page. At least there's a plot reason for that in Asura's case, though. *** On the plot side of things... -- Nail is a bro. -- Gast is a bro. -- I think this is the most dialogue-heavy DBZ's gonna get for a while. At least until Vegeta dies. -- Sorry, Salagir, but Blaze is right: that last panel was thrown in there solely to make a two-day cliffhanger. Disproven the literal next panel, lol. -- In DBZ's side of things, Vegeta has a personal stake in fighting Frieza. Piccolo, as a Namek, will have a personal stake fighting Frieza. Regardless of the choreography, there's likely going to be some meat there just for the interactions. The Majin Rebellion features a lot of people fighting a lot of people they've got no personal stake with (at least at first), but we, as the readers, have spent a lot of time getting to know everyone, both good and bad. This means we care about what happens even if the characters themselves have no real investment besides "Oh, now I have to beat this enemy." Also, since it's a life-or-death surprise situation with innocents involved, there's still a lot of interesting material to look forward to, such as seeing how they react to the escalating crisis. In DBS, 18 (who we don't know that well right now, since she's done nothing in DBS before this) is beating up a bunch of people whose names, abilities, and PLs we have no idea about, so it's like the story equivalent of cold french fries: it's technically filling, but it's not very fun and you aren't getting much from it. Man, this is a fun thread.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 2, 2020 3:38:22 GMT
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Post by Solus on Mar 3, 2020 22:52:51 GMT
I really appreciate the work you put into this.
In DBM they realize, what actually happened and in which situation their friends are. There really happens a lot storywise.
In DBZ Piccolo and Nail are still chatting, but I guess this is ok, since this is the first time namekian fusion is introduced. So it's alright to see Piccolo hesitate a little bit. This is all foreign for him. He never saw a namekian before and then he meets Nail, who looks exactly like himself. Must be strange for him. I can feel him.
In DBS there is again nothing. But you could not actually compare the tournament of power to the majin revolt, because every character in DBM is already established and we know how dangerous they are. So while we are not really in for surprises, we can feel the tension of the battles where we know that the good guys are outclassed. In the ToP most of them are intended as fodder and have to be put out of the way first. Showing this is no problem, when you have a whole chapter worth of 40 pages.
Edit: Does anyone else realize that Piccolo jumped between two fights from a pl of 3500 to like 1 million? That's an increase of 28500 %! Wtf?! This must be the highest jump in all DBZ. And yet it was for naught. That is something I really don't like about Toriyama's writing. Why not make other character relevant? There are other mangas that handeled matters way better.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 5, 2020 2:15:56 GMT
Edit: Does anyone else realize that Piccolo jumped between two fights from a pl of 3500 to like 1 million? That's an increase of 28500 %! Wtf?! This must be the highest jump in all DBZ. And yet it was for naught. That is something I really don't like about Toriyama's writing. Why not make other character relevant? There are other mangas that handeled matters way better. Nah. Highest DBZ jump is easily Frieza to Golden Frieza. Went from weaker than SS1 to stronger than SSB. Anyhoo: Katopesla was a far more interesting character in the anime.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 2:32:54 GMT
Nah. Highest DBZ jump is easily Frieza to Golden Frieza. Went from weaker than SS1 to stronger than SSB. Katopesla was a far more interesting character in the anime. Well he did say DBZ. And I'll be fucked, the DBS anime is looking to be much better than the manga. This does not bode well.....
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Post by Axalon on Mar 5, 2020 3:06:50 GMT
Nah. Highest DBZ jump is easily Frieza to Golden Frieza. Went from weaker than SS1 to stronger than SSB. Katopesla was a far more interesting character in the anime. Well he did say DBZ. And I'll be fucked, the DBS anime is looking to be much better than the manga. This does not bode well.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 3:14:27 GMT
Well he did say DBZ. And I'll be fucked, the DBS anime is looking to be much better than the manga. This does not bode well.....
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Post by Axalon on Mar 7, 2020 3:52:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 5:28:56 GMT
Fucking wow. That DBS page looks like absolute garbage.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 9, 2020 0:09:17 GMT
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Post by Ashanark on Mar 9, 2020 1:14:56 GMT
Dai Kaioshin counting on his Kaifu to deliver the save... Super Saiyan Goku looks really good in Toyotaro's latest page. The second and third panels in particular. *** Compare how motion is handled in all three pages today. I like how Toyotaro did Goku's movement here. It takes three panels for Goku to throw the dude off him so the pacing creates the effect of a slow, but insistent removal. If Toyotaro had done it in two panels it'd come off as more forceful but instead it looks like Goku's showing restraint, which he probably is against foes this weak. Look at Toriyama's last panel: the angle of Piccolo's flight, as well as the spacing of the panel and the slight curve in Piccolo's path, do a great job conveying speed--better than a straight line would've done, I'd say. Now compare with Asura's two action panels, West Kai's kick and Dabura's counter punch. West Kai's kick itself is visually easy to follow but I'm not really sure what direction she's coming from: did she swoop in from Dabura's right, or from behind? How she managed to get him in the front of his face with such a kick seems odd. Dabura's punch is a clearer movement; you can tell he charged at West Kai head-on and smacked her in the face, though again, the angle of the punch implies something like this should've happened... *** Another thing is pacing. Seeing DBM, DBZ and DBS side-by-side makes me realize just how fast DBM clips along. Believe it or not Toriyama is moving the slowest here, by my judging. Like DBZ, DBM had a major talking scene the past couple of pages. But while we just barely got the resolution of two people talking in DBZ, DBM had a whole group enter a new situation, discuss it, and form a plan in the same amount of time. With the final panel we are entering yet another situation in DBM, with Goten noticing the Jrs. Since we're taking all this in one page at a time I'm not sure if DBM's pacing feels frantic when read in one sitting but it's something to think about. Take a look at the last few pages of DBM and the transition from contestants-on-asteroid, to Buu, to Buu looking at arena, to the fighting happening in the arena, and then from Kais/Dabura to Goten. The action jumps three locations in three pages but it doesn't feel jarring because there is an establishing shot for each new situation before the action begins. Toyotaro, on the other hand... three pages ago Vegeta was shooting two guys, then we smash-cut to Goku in the midst of the Pride Troopers. At first I thought I'd missed a page, because the switch to Goku occurred without any sort of conclusion or follow-up to Vegeta's attack (did he eliminate the two guys? did they get sent flying? did they hit the ground?) To a lesser extent, there was the switch from 18 to the two guys the page before that. For comparison, here's what the DBM pages would've looked like if they jumped straight into the action like Toyotaro has lately, without the two "establishing" panels. Please forgive how choppy it looks: SpOiLeRsAll the same action takes place, but the lack of transitions makes it confusing. I think Toyotaro would've benefitted with two brief panels: one of the two guys eyeing each other before they charged, and one of Goku realizing he's surrounded by the Pride Troopers.
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Post by Andres on Mar 9, 2020 1:28:22 GMT
I really appreciate the work you put into this.
In DBM they realize, what actually happened and in which situation their friends are. There really happens a lot storywise.
In DBZ Piccolo and Nail are still chatting, but I guess this is ok, since this is the first time namekian fusion is introduced. So it's alright to see Piccolo hesitate a little bit. This is all foreign for him. He never saw a namekian before and then he meets Nail, who looks exactly like himself. Must be strange for him. I can feel him.
In DBS there is again nothing. But you could not actually compare the tournament of power to the majin revolt, because every character in DBM is already established and we know how dangerous they are. So while we are not really in for surprises, we can feel the tension of the battles where we know that the good guys are outclassed. In the ToP most of them are intended as fodder and have to be put out of the way first. Showing this is no problem, when you have a whole chapter worth of 40 pages.
Edit: Does anyone else realize that Piccolo jumped between two fights from a pl of 3500 to like 1 million? That's an increase of 28500 %! Wtf?! This must be the highest jump in all DBZ. And yet it was for naught. That is something I really don't like about Toriyama's writing. Why not make other character relevant? There are other mangas that handeled matters way better. I think the "between two fights" is a weird bar to measure with, but let's play along. Piccolo, yeah, he had a big jump, but from 3500, he then trained with King Kai and then fused with a 42k Nail. After that gravity training, he is probably already rivaling Nail in terms of sheer power, if not more: "I'm surprised. I don't know what kind of training you've done, but you've attained an astonishing amount of power"
www.mangahere.cc/manga/dragon_ball/v20/c295/1.html
It's not hard to believe Piccolo at this point is already stronger than Nail. Perhaps 60k or so. But yeah, from Nappa to Frieza, he jumped from below 4k to over 1M.
Vegeta's post-Reecome Zenkai, while a lower jump, should not be ignored: from roughly 35k to well over Ginyu and probably stronger than First Form Frieza but weaker than Second Form Frieza.
Goku's post-Ginyu zenkai was from 90k to around Final Form Frieza at some arbitrary percentage of his full power.
Now, let's count "couple of fights" and jumps also get large:
Goku, after two fights (Android 19 and Perfect Cell) goes from basic SSJ to SSj3. He was already SSj3 when he fought Yakkon, but was hiding it. Gohan, after two fights (Perfect Cell and Dabura), went from FPSSj to Mystic tier. Vegeta, after two fights (Reecome and Frieza) goes from 35k to SSJ1.
Anyway, this is fun!
But yeah, the largest jump must be Frieza's Golden suit.
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Post by Solus on Mar 9, 2020 10:10:17 GMT
Yes, I didn't say that Piccolo had the biggest jump in real numbers but percentage wise. I guess, the biggest jump in numbers was Cell when he almost killed himself. While there are no power levels given, he jumped from his semi perfect form to Ssj2 within minutes. That's absolutely hilarious.
But back to percentage: Okay, if you count Ressurection F as DBZ, then that's the greatest jump. But I really don't.
Also, Gohan was able to go Ssj2 against Dabura, so the jump is not as high as you said. But it's still impressive. What did we say were the multiplyers for ssj3 and how much stronger was Gohan than Goku in the Buu saga? Very huge numbers indeed, but percentagewise not nearly in the same range Piccolo was.
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Post by iron leaf on Mar 12, 2020 5:15:10 GMT
Short detour to the DBS plot. This is what Goku should have done in the anime.
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Post by عمار on Mar 12, 2020 17:02:52 GMT
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Post by Axalon on Mar 12, 2020 23:26:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 1:15:39 GMT
Goten gettin backhanded here will never not crack me the fuck up. I like it though, things are happening.
Slowish buildup for DBZ but things are about to happen, kind of. Can't wait for the 5 mins to kick in.
The pride Trooper costume designs make DBS look cheap n tacky, which makes it look poorly drawn, making me hate it more than I should. I mean that last panel isn't bad art, but it looks so shit to me. I dunno man, I guess I'm just a superficial cunt who is struggling to properly compare the pace between the three Dragonball offerings.
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Post by Axalon on Mar 14, 2020 2:10:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 3:22:49 GMT
Man, releasing the pages like this is starting to make me feel bad for Toyotaro. As Ash said a couple pages back, Goku looks great but yea, comparing him to Asura and AT is just brutal imo. At least at this point anyway, for all I know it gets better or it's a Pride Trooper thing. Or ToP phase, dunno. Another thing, I have no idea which direction to read Super coz it's been all over the shop since this thread started. I find it doesn't matter if you read it left or right and makes just as much sense either way. Like that 17 panel with the kicks I mentioned a while back.
Struth. No point me saying anything about the other two since my opinion hasn't changed from the previous page except, PALM-TO-THE-FACE-NO-JUTSU!
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