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Post by Axalon on Jan 3, 2017 0:44:46 GMT
I'm taking the liberty of preemptively moving the conversation from Today's Page Thread over to this one. The conversation has completely steered away from Majinization at all and is now Gohan vs. Dabura ad nauseam. The word losing is used to explain what has happened in the past tense, not what might happen in the future. The mere fact that it's losing and not lost automatically means the present tense. "Will lose" is the future. Gohan wasn't able to power up to SS2 to get the necessary strength to curbstomp Dabura as he should have, sparking Vegeta's rant. Ergo, he was losing. Cell WAS able to defend against Dabura's attacks. I have no idea what version of DBM you're reading where Cell was actually having a more difficult time than Gohan was. As I've already stated Cell at his Cell Games level casually broke with one hand Dabura's magic sword that required Gohan two hands and considerable effort to break. One fireball from Dabura sent Gohan hurtling away but didn't budge Cell an INCH, and only gave him some amusement. Hell, getting sliced almost in HALF didn't move him an inch and only earned Dabura some sneering comtempt from Cell.The only thing Gohan and Cell did equally was get hit by Dabura's stone spit. Gohan lucked out in that it hit his glove and not something more vital, while Cell just took off his head, regenerated, and laughed it off. The mere fact that Cell was in total control and mocking Dabura while Gohan was putting in his "maximum effort" and achieving far less results automatically means DBM Cell was doing better. And yet despite having seen two of his friends get turned into statues by Dabura's spit was still surprised when it almost happened to him, AND needed Supreme Kai yelling out a warning on top of it all. I always said he was sweating in one panel, and I've always maintained the position that one panel of sweat means nothing, and that Gohan's the only one getting exhausted here. Arguable about Dabura huffing and puffing given that he shows no signs of exhaustion in any of the fight aside from one drop of sweat, which is why I didn't use one drop of sweat as my sole basis of exhaustion. Even Goku and Vegeta have the occasional drop of sweat and they aren't even fighting. Gohan's sweating in multiple panels and pages and showing signs of getting tired, to the point that he was literally hunched over and catching his breath while Dabura nonchalantly threw his sword away. Dabura has one, maaaaybe two drops of sweat through the entire fight, and plays it off cool, calm, and collected.^As you can see. I never considered one drop of sweat from Dabura as an indicator that he was tired. Gohan always showed far more indicators. Despite you're thinking that dabura is clealy stronger, Dabura doesn't think so as he totally avoids a knock down brawl. That's also saligirs take as Cell even admits to this by accusing dabura of only being capable of attacking from behind. The truth is he's weaker pl wise and that's what's important. He's not perfect cell level. Why should he get into a brawl? He's got two more fighters even stronger than Gohan waiting in the wings, and he's wearing down Gohan and collecting energy for Buu as it is. The SMART thing to do is minimize damage to yourself while prolonging the fight and injuring Gohan as much as possible to get the maximum power energy for Buu. By this logic, why would Dabura toss his sword away when Gohan is capable of moving far faster than the falling sword? The answer is: The sword's broken so it doesn't matter anymore. It's safe to just get rid of. Well that's literally what happens. Dabura goes from dodging and throwing fireballs to upping the ante with stone spit and a magic demon sword as soon as he overhears Vegeta. He even briefly stops paying attention to Gohan altogether because he's so intrigued by what Vegeta just said. When Vegeta gets even angrier is when he leaves. Dabura did a spectacular job. He turned Vegeta against the group and the resulting energies from him fighting with Goku had Buu ready to go almost instantly, which is exactly what Babadi wanted. Buu was always the goal. He even realized Buu was going to turn on Babadi and tried to save him, though the attempt was futile. Applying DBM to DBZ doesn't really work here. DBM Dabura had most of his power DRAINED the second time he fought Future Gohan, thus allowing him to come out on top. On top of that, Future Gohan was doing even worse than regular Gohan the first time around--just look at that resounding CRACK Dabura does to him, while he takes an elbow to the face from Gohan and laughs it off. The only reason he even came out alive was because Babadi was an idiot in that universe and drained most of Dabura's power. And again, they're trying to get energy for Buu. Killing Gohan instantly does nothing, which is exactly why Babadi yelled at him for almost doing exactly that. In fact, really if he wanted Buu all he had to do was drain Dabura, let him recover, then drain him again and again until enough energy had been collected. Babadi's an idiot in all the universes it seems.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 3, 2017 0:58:42 GMT
Honestly I found Dabura's power inconsistent with how it was established. If he is as powerful as Perfect Cell and Gohan's power has declined from what it was in the Cell Games he should have been able to deal damage to Gohan for the energy transferring process. Babidi was complaining Dabura wasn't even doing that much. Cell was capable of dealing damage to Gohan without using his full power. I'm not sure if Dabura was meant to be stronger than they thought, trickier because of the magic, or if they overestimated him.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 3, 2017 1:02:49 GMT
Honestly I found Dabura's power inconsistent with how it was established. If he is as powerful as Perfect Cell and Gohan's power has declined from what it was in the Cell Games he should have been able to deal damage to Gohan for the energy transferring process. Babidi was complaining Dabura wasn't even doing that much. Cell was capable of dealing damage to Gohan without using his full power. I'm not sure if Dabura was meant to be stronger than they thought, trickier because of the magic, or if they overestimated him. This is true, though the fight honestly wasn't very long. Dabura and Gohan had each only gotten one hit on each other before Vegeta was already chomping at the bit at how ridiculous it was that Dabura hadn't been defeated yet.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 3, 2017 8:03:18 GMT
Of all the wishy washy statements goku made during and before the fight, the one where he was crystal clear you declare the exact opposite. He said he "was not losing." You say he was losing. I can't say any more on this.
I read the one where cell was taken completely off guard by the sword attack and would have died if not for his regen powers that have nothing to do with pl. He held himself to the same pl as dabura and lost if not for his special power so that makes gohan superior.
Well, it was a much thinner sword than the one gohan broke. But seriously, you can't compare the two situations. Gohan didn't just break the sword like cell did. He also stopped the force of all of dabura's might in the process. Completely different scenarios. You yourself claim that at that point he was going all out to kill gohan because he had the slightest notion that vegeta might be evil. If adult gohan ssj1<kid gohan ssj1<perfect cell than regardless of the size of the gaps between, there's no way that adult gohan ssj1<kid gohan ssj1<dabura and dabura fails to stike down adult gohan. That makes no sense.
Take his regen away and cell died. nuff said.
It's easy to mock when you're holding back and when you already know that there's nothing your opponent can do to possibly kill you. Gohan also smacked dabura back before his special attacks forced him on the defensive. Gohan isn't invincible like cell so he had to put in more effort to defend. Like I said. Take away cells regen and he was dead, unlike gohan.
Why on earth do you think he needed kaioshen to say that in order for him to know what to do? You really read a lot more into (and add your own input) these frames than there actually is.
Sorry, but no. Go back and look at page 103. You said "of the two, Gohan was also the only one getting tired. Visibly sweating, slightly slouched over(which is debatable), gasping for breath, tired." Then you said "So ss1 gohan is getting tired against a not-even-winded dabura who's at perfect cell levels." In that frame they are both huffing and their is equal sweat in front of them. This is after a show of sheer strength between the 2 in which gohan was disadvantaged but still succeeded in thwarting the attack. Stark contrast to the befuddled cell that took it like a champ in the gut.
Man, you got to get off the sweat thing. Don't think there was a drop of sweat on Spopovich inspite of the fact that he took a huge beating, even snapped his neck from videl. Yes ultimately he beat her ass but that just goes to show what kind of crazy endurance the majin spell gives you. Now look in the background and there's gohan drenched in sweat and he was just standing there. Yeah, that's a different kind of sweat but some guys sweat a lot ya know. jk
Minimize damage to himself? Can you please acknowledge that Perfect cell was far stronger than adult gohan ssj1 even without all of dabura's special magic attacks?
He threw his down, dabura threw his to the side. That's all I'm saying. yes it's possible that he's hunched over winded but also possible he threw the sword piece down. Don't read too much into that one motion. They are both huffing. Both with one bead of sweat after the show of real strength.
You didn't answer my question. Why change his attack plan at the notion he vegeta might be evil to I'm going to kill gohan and then when it's confirmed vegeta is evil then just stop the fight. Give me a reason that makes sense otherwise he was going for the kill the whole time and he just couldn't do it cause he's no where as strong as you think.
Wow, you give dabura a lot of credit. He didn't turn vegeta against the group. He had no idea what he was doing was pissing off vegeta.
Even though this gohan is far weaker, when Dabura shouts "I'm not everyone," he swings and misses and then quickly takes a blow that was ultimately ineffective. This doesn't show that gohan is stronger than dabura but that dabura is so far from being way above him that he would miss and then take a hit. After the "crack" they exchange a bunch of blows and gohan is hardly wounded. How is this dabura not one shotting gohan's weak ass. He even resorts to spitting on him completely forgetting what he's supposed to be doing. This sure as hell isn't a perfect cell level dabura. future gohan<=one android<imperfect cell<android 16<semiperfect cell<assj vegeta<ussj trunks<ssj1 goku<ssj1 kid gohan<perfect cell. How the hell can dabura be perfect cell level, not be following babidi's orders and be at all stuggling with this gohan. Even I don't agree with saligir's take on this.
Ain't that the sad truth. Db is hardly perfect no matter how hard we try to brain fuck it into being so.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 3, 2017 23:45:01 GMT
Made some edits for clarity. Of all the wishy washy statements goku made during and before the fight, the one where he was crystal clear you declare the exact opposite. He said he "was not losing." You say he was losing. I can't say any more on this. Goku does say he isn't losing. I don't dispute that Goku says he isn't losing. I'm simply disagreeing with Goku and agreeing with Vegeta that Gohan's doing a poor job. A cut like that would be lethal for most people. Cell brushed it off like a paper cut. What is devastating to others is trivial to Cell. That is why he was doing better than Gohan. Your own words say he could afford to take attacks at his luxury. Regen is one of those luxuries. You're absolutely right. The swords are slightly different. You're also right about the scenarios being completely different. Cell stopped Dabura's two-handed force with one hand after being sliced through, then forced the sword out of his body with the one hand, all while Dabura's holding onto it, THEN snaps the sword. Cell's feat still looks far more impressive, as it should, considering he's stronger than Gohan was when he fought Dabura. No, I said he upped the ante. The only time I mention Dabura ever trying to kill anything is Buu. Admittedly the stone spit would kill him, but he only used it once and never again. Surely if his aim was to kill him he'd just keep spitting on him no? Like when Gohan caught his sword and was using both hands to break it? Take Gohan's clothes away and Gohan died. Nuff said. See how easy that is? It's easy to declare how totally screwed someone would be when you arbitrarily take something away from a character. Take away Goku's Super Saiyan and Frieza kills him. Nuff said. Take away Frieza's ability to breathe in space and he dies at Namek. Nuff said. Take away Babadi's spellcasting and he gets owned by the Goku/Vegeta/Gohan team. Nuff said. 1. Cell isn't invincible. Dabura's perfectly capable of killing him and even opponents higher than him, though the chance gets lower the stronger his opponent is. 2. See above point about the glove. 3. Hooray for Gohan, he got one hit in. Dabura also got one hit in. The fight WAS short, lest you forget, with both Vegeta and Babadi chomping at the bit about why it wasn't over when it had barely started. Because he flew straight at it, Supreme Kai yelled about it, then he blocked it at the last second. He either didn't see it at all (possible) or had already forgotten what the spit does (also possible). You keep focusing on the one panel. I've been talking about the entire fight. Gohan is visibly sweating and getting tired throughout the fight. I also again see no sweat on either fighter in the panel you're so interested in, and I've already said it's arguable that Dabura may be huffing and puffing, but the mere fact that he's already cooled off (if indeed he was huffing at all) shows he has the upper hand against an out of shape Gohan who can't even muster up the rage to access SS2. This is why I'm saying Gohan was losing. For the sake of argument alone let's say Dabura was indeed huffing. Great. Now what? Gohan's slightly recovered as well, though as we find out he's already used a lot of his energy in dodging some flame breath, kicking Dabura once, getting hit by a fireball, taking off a glove, and breaking Dabura's sword, to the point that Goku felt it necessary to give Gohan a senzu before sending him off to go fight Dabura again. How is he winning when he needs a senzu after doing so little? When Goku gave Cell a senzu, it was because he knew that it wouldn't matter once Gohan got mad, and that the senzu was actually more of a pity shot for Cell than anything once he awakened Gohan's inner monster. Cell inflicts far more damage to Gohan pre-SS2 than Dabura does here, yet the SS2 boost is more than enough to overcome Cell and later even Super Perfect Cell. Here Goku gives Gohan the senzu, and tries to get him to harness his rage again, saying no one could beat him with his rage boosts, which Gohan sadly just can't do this time around. This is another reason why I disagree with Goku's earlier assessment of him "not losing". I've never denied it. The fact remains though that just because Perfect Cell is stronger than SS1 Gohan doesn't mean Gohan couldn't damage him. Same with Dabura. Even Vegeta can harm Perfect Cell, and he's far weaker than Gohan or Goku was at the time of the Cell Games. Minimizing damage to himself when two people beyond Gohan (one of whom is getting very upset and impatient) are waiting is smart. Unless you're saying that conserving energy on the weakest of your three opponents when Goku and Vegeta, the top two Saiyan brawlers in DB, are standing around waiting for their turn isn't a smart move, especially since Buu's only halfway to revival and Dabura is the only capable defender Babadi has? Draining energy from Gohan by personally fighting is less of a priority, that's why. Getting a strong new fighter (one who claims that he could mop the floor with Dabura and CLEARLY has a personal beef with another fighter in the group) to divide the group from within and speed up Buu's awakening is more important. As we clearly see later on, Goku and Majin Vegeta fighting for just a few minutes has Buu ready to wake up. Remember, the goal is always Buu. Dabura came up with the most efficient way to wake him up while dividing his enemies. It's simple Divide & Conquer policy. Right, let's ignore Dabura telling Babadi about Vegeta's inner evil. Let's ignore Vegeta tossing away almost everything he has for a chance to kill Goku. Let's ignore Majin Vegeta throwing down with Goku and waking Buu up, fulfilling everything Babadi came to Earth for and destroying all of Supreme Kai's hopes. If you don't call that turning against someone then we might as well stop here and now.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 4, 2017 10:11:16 GMT
Going out on a limb here to suggest that part of the problem is that you (or maybe I) don't know what "power level" means. Pretty hard to have a discussion on something when you don't even know what the fundamentals are. In my opinion someone's pl constists of three primary factors. 1. Strength (as in the ability to hit hard and pick up heavy weights), Speed (as in the abitlity to hit fast or move your body quickly by normal means ie. running, flying) and durability (as in the ability to resist taking damage) These three factors combined determine one's power level. What does not constitute power level are techniques (Kamehameha, IT, destructo disk), natural abilities (regeneration, shape shifting, psionic abilities/time freeze), magic (binding, teleportation, conjuring) and technology (weapons, armor, buttons that shut off androids). I don't think regeneration counts for durability any more than I would say IT counts for speed. Durability is about resisting damage, not recovering from it. All that being said...
The large part of this argument is about whether or not dabura is perfect cell level. That statement implies that we are talking about does dabura's power level approximately equal perfect cells. If so, your attempt to include Cell's regeneration into the argument really makes it difficult because that has nothing to do with Power level. Gohan's clothes and babidi's spells have the same amount to do with power level as cell's regenerative abilities. Keep in mind that power level is not about who would win in a fight as that question has nothing at all to do with power level. The most glaring example of this (I even corrected Khan on this) is XXI (as in the old man competing in the tournament, not the mystery hand in the darkened apartment) For all we know, XXI has the same power level as farmer with a shotgun (5) and yet he was able to defeat Vegetto with likely the highest power level in any universe. Power level and ability to defeat are 2 entirely different things.
Now, why do I focus on the frame with the huffing... Because this was real strength between the 2 combatants (not magical IT fireballs and stone spit). It was just brute strength and speed between the two and what was the result? Somewhere around equal at best. They both tried with all their might and you could call it a draw. Now since we know that Adult ssj1 is less than kid ssj1 and he's less than perfect cell (remember we are talking power level here) then there's no f'ing way that dabura is perfect cell level. He's around adult gohan ssj1 level and that's quite a bit lower than perfect cell. Even if you think goku was lying about the fight and he really was losing it was due to Magical techniques and not due to power level. Those are 2 very different things.
Guldo is another great example: As stated, a low power level (a weakling even) - still on the ginyu squad. Why? Time freeze. Is that power level? The scouter doesn't think so. DBS (I'm going to hell for evoking dbs in a debate) zamusa, whatever the f his name is. was immortal. instantly regenerates from anything. Did that mean his power level was high? not at all. Could he kill goku, yes eventually he'd wear him down or surprise him. Kinda like ridiculous regeneration - sounds so familiar.
Anyways hope that clears all that up. If you disagree with me on pl than we are going nowhere on a discussion about if dabura is perfect cell level. Clearly he doesn't have cells regen. The question is can he hit as hard, move as fast and resist damage to the same level that cell could. The evidence show's no. Cell was arrogant and liked to play with his food. If he really wanted to kill kid gohan ssj1 it wouldn't have taken very many hits to do so, possibly just 1. Adult gohan, that's a one shot no question.
That covers most of your points. Here's the rest:
Hahaha, you really think gohan need's to be told by kiaoshen about the spit??? Didn't you see that kaioshen was the ultimate backseat driver during the whole beginning of the buu saga? He was non stop with it. Vegeta watch out for the 10x gravity, Oh no!, Goku, Yakon is soooo scary, you're doooooooomed! Hahaha... seriously, that's just kaioshen. He wasn't there to help, he was just there to be a whiny bitch.
"He didn't turn Vegeta against the group"
Yes, that's absolutely correct. Was dabura a good boy and recognized that vegeta could be majined. The answer is yes. (even if he was wrong in that he decided to be majined, he didn't have an evil heart or he would have had no choice - but that's another thread). Now did Dabura turn vegeta against the group.... NO! Vegeta was just about to attack goku regardless of what was going on with Dabura. Here's the quote... "I'm going to end this so I can settle things with you! That's the only reason why I came to this tournament!" Don't you see that it was already decided that nothing was going to stop vegeta from fighting goku right at that moment? It was already over. The majin boost was a most fortuitous occurrence that he happily accepted  (ssj2 and/or just more strength depending on what you believe) but regardless, Dabura did nothing to further encourage vegeta to "turn against his group." In reality, he really only ever turned against goku. Dabura had no affect on this at all.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 4, 2017 22:44:42 GMT
In my opinion someone's pl constists of three primary factors. 1. Strength (as in the ability to hit hard and pick up heavy weights), Speed (as in the abitlity to hit fast or move your body quickly by normal means ie. running, flying) and durability (as in the ability to resist taking damage) These three factors combined determine one's power level. What does not constitute power level are techniques (Kamehameha, IT, destructo disk), natural abilities (regeneration, shape shifting, psionic abilities/time freeze), magic (binding, teleportation, conjuring) and technology (weapons, armor, buttons that shut off androids). I don't think regeneration counts for durability any more than I would say IT counts for speed. Durability is about resisting damage, not recovering from it. All that being said... I agree. I would add a fourth category to your three however. Ki. Ki is the most commonly used method of measuring one's PL. The more ki you have, the more powerful you are in all of your previous categories. Hell, harnessing ki properly means you can even boost the three stats you mentioned even...further...BEYOND!I never said Cell's regeneration was part of his power level. I'm saying Cell's regeneration means he can afford to take attacks that would kill an ordinary fighter. It's a really nifty ability to have. He has regeneration, so he can get almost sliced in half and smirk in front of Dabura's shocked face. Cell's been playing games with every single fighter he's fought so far. Babadi's spells can affect power level, as we clearly see with the Majin spell. Not all his spells do such a thing of course, but his spellcasting *can* affect PL. I somewhat agree. If the power level is high enough and the opponent's techniques aren't good enough then the higher PL will always win. As an example, all of Piccolo's strategies and techniques meant nothing when Frieza just transformed again and blasted him senseless. I'm not saying Dabura wins because he's at some magical Power Level threshold, even though PLs can and have determined the outcome of fights in the past, and using just PLs is still a relatively accurate scale to use more often than not. If we take just the PLs at face value, then no, Gohan could not win against Dabura who is supposedly on the level of Perfect Cell. So let's take away PLs. Let's say Goku NEVER compares Dabura to Cell at all. What I'm saying is that the combination of his strength, superior stamina (undeniably superior) and techniques are why he's winning over Gohan's strength, inferior stamina, inability to go SS2 and less overall techniques. - This is why I've brought up and keep bringing up how tired Gohan looks in the fight and after the fight. - This is why I've continually brought up how Dabura's cooled off from their minor tussle while Gohan needs a senzu. - Or how Gohan needs a pep talk from Goku about how to win, summed up as "GET PISSED OFF AND GO SS2", while Dabura gives pep talks to Babadi about how he's Lord of the Demon Realm and not to worry about it. The evidence shows inconclusiveness. Dabura was hit a grand total of what, three times in the entire manga? Once by Gohan, and then twice by Majin Buu who was far superior to Cell anyway so the two hits don't even matter except to show how much stronger than Gohan Buu was. Of the two attacks Gohan threw at him he was hit by one and immediately continued the fight and dodged the other. To Gohan's credit he too avoids one attack and gets hit once. This is why Goku's statement about him being on Cell's level is so important. Dabura quite frankly just doesn't get the screentime. Now, you're well within your rights to declare this an Informed Attribute, but there it is nonetheless. He certainly panicked after Supreme Kai yelled about it while it was mere inches from his face, though I've already offered two options for that page, one of those meaning Gohan wasn't an idiot while the other one means he was. Nothing was going to stop him from attacking Goku that moment you say? Oh, but something did happen that stopped Vegeta. Dabura left. Did Vegeta immediately decide now was his moment, screw this spaceship, screw Supreme Kai, screw Babadi, and sucker punch Goku? No. Did he decide to take charge and attack Dabura himself so he could fight Goku, as he claimed he was going to do? No. Did he decide "TO HELL WITH IT" and just blow up the spaceship? No. What did he do? He stood around with the others wondering who this "new fighter" was going to be. Despite his outburst, despite the fact that no, he doesn't care about Babadi, or Supreme Kai, or Dabura, or Gohan, or Buu, or anything besides Goku himself...he was still playing Babadi's spaceship game. Vegeta calmed down, if only slightly, crossed his arms, and waited with the rest of them. The fact that the "new fighter" turned out to be him and meant no more delays between him and Goku throwing down was just gravy. EDIT: Unless you're saying Vegeta's attitude? Because you're right. Dabura did nothing to his attitude. Nonetheless, he was still part of the group and hadn't turned on them. It was only after Dabura got Babadi to mindjack him that Vegeta acted on his desires. So yes, either way Dabura had an effect. Vegeta turned against everyone.- He turned against Goku by going evil and becoming Majin Vegeta to fight him. - He betrayed the trust of Gohan and all the others who had come to consider him as an ally. - He turned against Supreme Kai by giving in to his own greed and pride and helping Buu get resurrected (even if he still didn't care about Buu personally), when prior to this he was grudgingly helping him stop Buu. - He turned against Babadi by refusing to fight anyone but Goku. - He betrayed the trust of his wife when he started murdering in cold blood like he did in the old days working for Frieza. - He turned against the people of Earth when he started blowing them up by the hundreds to entice Goku to fight him. Dabura absolutely had an effect on this when he was like "Yo Babadi! Mind control this fool! He's evil!". I offer the possibility that had Dabura not done this, it was far more likely Vegeta would just get pissed off, kill Dabura, then go down and kill a terrified Babadi. Buu then never wakes up, and Vegeta goes off to fight Goku like he always wanted.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 5, 2017 10:47:30 GMT
So I'm glad to see we see eye to eye on power level and how techniques, etc are 2 entirely different things. Regarding your input on ki, I'd say that it's not really a forth category or how you put it. I was listing the 3 factors and ki isn't really in that group. Ki is Power level... assuming that is the way in which the fighter in question derives his power. However it's also totally irrelevant as scouters (which read ki) don't exist past ginyu and therefore the notion of ki (power level) is only discernable to the reader thru the 3 factors (strength, speed, durability) I already listed. Special note: Androids have no ki and yet they still have a power level as defined by those 3 factors. I've never once seen someone's pl list where the androids were listed as "zero." But the important things is we agree and so we can move on.
Let's start by clarifying DBM and Saligir's take. On page 112 It is given that cell is holding himself to the power level he was at the beginning of the cell games. This is what's known as "perfect cell level" (as opposed to "super perfect cell level." Dabura is also stated to be the exact same level he was when he fought gohan. That being said, it is abundantly clear that cell beat his ass bad and wasn't even remotely fatigued from doing so. He took the fireball from behind and it barely moved him whereas a better prepared gohan was pushed all the way back into the water. Yes, as I've stated many times, dabura's novel "techniques" did allow him to get a few ordinarily lethal shots on cell (another reason why gohan did so much better than you give him credit for). But replace those techniques with normal ki based attacks and Dabura was just a complete joke to perfect cell. Since this is all based on the same observations you keep touting can you at least please acknowledge that Dabura is far from perfect cell level in DBM. I know we are trying to base this on the manga but I would like to at least here you acknowledge this one small thing.
The rest...
As you've agreed with my power level comments to the extent that they matter to this conversation then there's not need to go further into why I was saying cell's regen doesn't matter.
Thank you, Thank you! Yes, he's got some of the other stuff too, but techniques are not power level and when we're discussing if dabura is perfect cell level and you evoke techniques (which is the real reason why it appeared to you he was winning), then you just help confirm that his power level wasn't so good on it's own. Sweet.
The one shot of the sword stuggle is all the evidence you need to prove that dabura was not stronger than gohan. That is pretty convincing in and of itself (like I said, gohan was even at the disadvantage). It was damn near an arm wrestling contest. What better test of strength do you need?
I meant in that moment it was already decided he was going to attack goku and nothing was going to stop him. Not that he was right on the verge of swinging at him. I even gave his statement that he was going to kill dabura first.
Say what? I went back to count some pages and I think it was like 25 of them where vegeta after he was majined stood in the exact same spot.... for like 25 freaking pages before he finally attacked goku. Give me a break. You think because he stood there for a couple pages before hand because he was curious about some new danger matters compared to that? He's not stupid enough to not pay attention to suddenly being back on the ship and someone talking about a new fighter. Even then he was pretty much just focused on goku. Right at that moment changed when the room changed and it was just another annoying delay no matter how slight it was. You can see on his face that he was about to blow that ship to kingdom come.
You mean like emotionally, betrayed their trust? Well then yeah, I guess. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when Babidi tells him to kill the other's and he says "I don't care about the rest." I don't care about the rest equals not turning on everyone. Not that that phrasing really means anything the way you're implying. What you said was that it was Dabura that turned vegeta against his group and that is incorrect. You're forgetting that vegeta made a choice. He wasn't kidnapped by babidi and forced into hating goku. He made a choice and that was to do what he wanted to do and what he had every intention to do regardless of all the background interference. The only thing dabura and babidi did for vegeta was help unleash his dark side just to give him a fighting chance against a ssj2 goku. Otherwise they were irrelevant to his situation.
Lastly, I don't see how you've shown any evidence that dabura is anywhere reasonably near perfect cell. It seems like you're strongest evidence is goku's statement to that fact that was heavily watered down with doubt in the wording after barely witnessing a quick blitz on kibito and some spit slinging. Later he claims he thinks he's even stronger but more or less acknowledges that he thinks it's magic, not power level that makes him appear that way. Then there's the already known, far weaker than perfect cell gohan that still manages to hang in there against what should be a one shot killer by perfect cell levels. Unless you got something else, I'm pretty convinced that dabura is no where near perfect cell just as saligir believes. If I had to guess I would put him at or just below ssj1 goku at the cell games. Goku managed to give cell quite a challenge but it is believed by most the cell was even stronger than that and powered up even more against ssj1 gohan so that's probably where he fits best.
I don't know how to do it but perhaps you can put a voting thing on the top of this and hopefully whatever people actually followed all of this foolishness can at least give their opinion in a way that doesn't consume hours of their time like we're doing. Thanks.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 6, 2017 1:54:05 GMT
So I'm glad to see we see eye to eye on power level and how techniques, etc are 2 entirely different things. Regarding your input on ki, I'd say that it's not really a forth category or how you put it. I was listing the 3 factors and ki isn't really in that group. Ki is Power level... assuming that is the way in which the fighter in question derives his power. However it's also totally irrelevant as scouters (which read ki) don't exist past ginyu and therefore the notion of ki (power level) is only discernable to the reader thru the 3 factors (strength, speed, durability) I already listed. Ki is most certainly not irrelevant. It's the most important part of the bunch. More ki = more strength. More ki = more speed. More ki = more powerful techniques. It also is certainly not discernible just through physical attributes either, unless you think the Final Flash is based purely on how much Vegeta can squat at the gym. It's why Imperfect Cell got so strong between when he first fought Piccolo and when he shows up again later. He'd sucked the ki out of thousands of people, probably a LOT more, and added it to his own. That's because they have an infinite energy generator. Whatever artificial energy they use is a substitute for ki that can't be sensed, but in all other roles works just as well as ki. I have repeatedly said that DBM Cell > DBM Dabura. I quite frankly have no idea why you would think I said anything to the contrary. This has always been my stated position. Surely you don't think that all my posts about Cell defeating Dabura much more easily than Gohan fighting him and failing to defeat him somehow implied that I thought Dabura >= Cell in DBM? I don't even know why this matters quite frankly. DBM is a fan comic. A well made one more often than not, but fan fiction nonetheless. Using fights here to justify any type of opinion on canon is silly. Salagir also thinks Broly just infinitely gains strength up to SS2 Vegito levels, but we don't use that in fights with "canon" Broly, right? His techniques are not the real reason why I thought Dabura was winning. Please don't put words in my mouth. It gives him an edge, sure, just as Cell's regeneration gives him an edge, but I've constantly been using Gohan's poor stamina as my main reason for why Dabura's winning. Goku quite clearly thinks Gohan needs to go SS2 to win and tells him as much while giving him a senzu to recover. And since SS2 anything > Cell because of the massive increases to strength, speed, durability, ki, etc... Because physical strength alone means nothing. If that were true the Hulk could destroy Goku every time since he has to go SS1 just to lift 40 tons. When you consider the whole package the result is, as I said, inconclusive when compared to anyone besides Gohan. You yourself said it PL = strength, speed, durability (and then I added ki as a fourth factor). Dabura's clearly better in speed and stamina, and you yourself said Gohan had to use his "maximum effort" to break Dabura's sword. So worst-case scenario is that Dabura stalemates Gohan on strength. Best case scenario he's holding back, going off of Goku's comments and the fact that he's there to get energy for Buu. Here's why either way it doesn't matter and why Gohan is losing: 1. Worst-case scenario. Dabura and Gohan are equal in physical strength. Let's just say, for the sake of discussion alone, that Dabura is not as strong as Cell, contrary to Goku's statement. - Gohan is already using his "maximum effort" to break Dabura's sword and needs a senzu after the battle before facing Dabura again. Meaning Gohan used a lot of ki to match Dabura. Dabura meanwhile feels perfectly confident to take on (rejuvenated) Gohan for a Round 2 that never happens thanks to Buu. - Goku tells him to go SS2 for the fight to win. Gohan's lack of training means he can't do it and has to use just SS1. - When he feels like it, Dabura has clearly shown he can outspeed Gohan. Gohan was completely fooled by his afterimage, which is caused when the user moves very, very fast. Gohan likewise never displays a feat similar to this on Dabura. - Dabura clearly has better stamina. - Dabura's techniques give him a deadly edge. Really only his stone spit through. Stuff like fireballs are probably comparable to ki blasts. 2. Scenario 2 - He's holding back to get energy for Buu, and is in fact on Cell's level as Goku says. - Fairly obvious why this is bad for SS1 Gohan in a deathmatch. Vegeta had waited weeks for this day. Years, technically. Of course he wanted to fight Goku. Dabura capitalized on this obvious hatred to get Babadi to work his magic. So we basically agree. He only didn't care about them because they didn't dare get in the way. If Supreme Kai or Yamcha or someone had physically tried to stop him he would've just blown his head off and taunted Goku some more. Dabura's the reason that Babadi used the Majin spell and Vegeta made his choice. Babadi was freaking clueless until Dabura plainly told him to use Vegeta. Dabura's the reason Vegeta had the choice to go Majin in the first place. No Dabura telling Babadi = No Majin Vegeta. We agree that Vegeta was likely going to attack the spaceship or something if Dabura hadn't told Babadi. Doing so would mean he hasn't turned against anyone. He's still fighting "the enemy", Babadi and Dabura, he's just eliminating them because he thinks they're garbage and wants a real fight in Goku, because Babadi is wasting his precious time. I already covered this, so I'm not going to take much time to respond to this. You're free to think it's an Informed Attribute. I can't think of any time (in DBZ at least) Goku's ever overestimated someone's strength. Unlike Supreme Kai he is a much better source on judging people's strengths. Underestimated them? All the time. But never overestimated. The one time I can think of where he's overestimated anyone is Monaka in DBS, but that was because everyone from Puar to Beerus himself fell over themselves to INSIST that he was stronger than Goku, going to ridiculous lengths to keep it that way. He's trying to steal energy, not one-shot kill him. I've used this point many times already, and it fits perfectly with not just one-hit killing. The problem with this is that there are so many factors to consider. A lot of people think Gohan was SS2 against Dabura (though we both agree he was SS1). They'll automatically vote Gohan. Some people will vote Gohan for the sake of voting Gohan because they like him. Some people would vote Dabura because they think Gohan wasn't strong enough. Some would vote Dabura just b/c they don't like Gohan. Etc, etc, etc. Generic polls are shoddy at best unless the answer is super obvious, such as Raditz vs Beerus. Not to mention that most of our posts are just going back and forth about Cell and Dabura, and not Dabura vs Gohan. I even tried to steer the conversation away from Cell completely just to focus on Dabura vs. Gohan without the shadow of Cell looming over everything, but he just refuses to die and keeps regenerating his way into the argument. I still think Gohan's losing either way, FWIW. Only SS2 can bail him out of this outcome. I guarantee almost no one is reading any of these posts of ours besides us and maybe the occasional other forum goer. If time's a factor feel free to stop.
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 6, 2017 3:32:27 GMT
I guarantee almost no one is reading any of these posts of ours besides us and maybe the occasional other forum goer. You might be surprised The bolded part is the main reason I responded to your post. I'd never realized this before and it's a great point. Even facing a ki restored Gohan, even after fighting him once without being healed in-between, Dabura's still confident he can win. So either he's an overarrogant idiot or he got a good estimation of Gohan's strength while fighting him before. Another indicator is clothing damage. Gohan got his outer green clothes torn up by Dabura but Dabura himself wasn't really scratched. Dabura might've been surprised at Gohan's strength, but I don't think he was worried. I would agree that Gohan couldn't have beaten Dabura as a SS1. At the risk of changing the subject, I would think that either Goku or Vegeta could've taken Dabura as SS1s. Dabura got the crap scared out of him seeing Goku go SS1 and, when Babidi asked if he could handle them right before they left, Dabura's response was "no amount of strength can defeat me," implying that he still felt he could win against the Saiyans despite their strength advantage. Another reason I think they could've won as SS1s is that both Vegeta and Goku, who didn't want to reveal to the other that they had SS2, kept saying they'd be able to beat Dabura without problems. At the time of the Cell Games SS1 Gohan was stronger than anyone else, even before transforming. But just as Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta surpassed Teen Gohan as SS2s, I imagine their SS1s were now stronger than SS1 Teen Gohan had been. I'll be honest and say I don't really remember which of you is arguing what at this point, but my personal take is that Dabura is not stronger than Cell, because there's presumably such a huge gap between the restricted Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell at max. Just like Salagir feels a Saiyan can't beat Frieza without going Super, I don't think any Super Saiyan can take Perfect Cell without going to the second level. Vegeta and Goku's confidence--while still trying to hide their SS2 potential--implies Dabura was on the same tier, but not stronger. Not to mention it just feels wrong to me for Dabura to outclass canon Perfect Cell when it took so much blasted work for Cell to become that strong.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 6, 2017 4:12:38 GMT
I read some of the argument. I did think you both made good points. If you want more opinions to weigh in then right now I'm of that they overestimated Dabura was weaker than Perfect Cell for Gohan to even stand a chance against him in Super Saiyan form. I think Dabura had the edge, but since he hadn't dealt damage to Gohan to feed Buu his energy it makes me think Dabura was having more trouble than he appeared to have. This is a Gohan who's power and skill had declined a bit from not training. I'll take the cop out answer and think they were close enough in power that either could have won that fight, but Dabura had the edge from what we saw.
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Post by Xeno Black on Jan 6, 2017 4:46:07 GMT
If you ask me, Majin Dabura > SSJ / Base Gohan, but SSJ2 Gohan > Majin Dabura. Of course, Stone Spit will always make Dabura the automatic winner if used correctly, so Gohan has to play his cards right if he wants to survive the encounter. If not, he is a dead man.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 6, 2017 4:53:24 GMT
I'll be honest and say I don't really remember which of you is arguing what at this point, but my personal take is that Dabura is not stronger than Cell, because there's presumably such a huge gap between the restricted Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell at max. Just like Salagir feels a Saiyan can't beat Frieza without going Super, I don't think any Super Saiyan can take Perfect Cell without going to the second level. Vegeta and Goku's confidence--while still trying to hide their SS2 potential--implies Dabura was on the same tier, but not stronger. Not to mention it just feels wrong to me for Dabura to outclass canon Perfect Cell when it took so much blasted work for Cell to become that strong. I don't think either of us are really advocating that Dabura is stronger than Cell. Fooshin says he's weaker by a large amount, I say he's on par. He says Gohan was going to win, I say Dabura was. Personally, I'd like Cell to be stronger than Dabura. I've actually disliked arguing with Fooshin about the whole affair because while Cell is my favorite DBZ villain, I honestly don't care about Dabura a bit. So even saying he's roughly equal with Cell rubs me the wrong way, for mostly the same reason you listed...but I gotta side with Goku on that one. But given typical shonen formulas it wouldn't surprise me if a right-hand minion was indeed as strong as the last major arc villain because power creep, with the real villain naturally stronger than that. Vegeta was the most powerful fighter yet seen when he first arrived...and then we went to Namek and Zarbon and Recoome and others start showing up...and they were just minions. Frieza and the Androids is another great example. Frieza went from this galaxy conquering, Emperor of the Universe monster who everyone feared and always got his way to finally getting humbled by a "monkey" on an exploding planet. It was a beautiful arc that wrapped up Goku's development into a legendary warrior among the stars, a Saiyan avenging the people he never knew, Vegeta's personal history, Piccolo's heritage on the planet he never knew, Krillin putting everything on the line to get his friends back, Gohan slowly coming more into his own, etc, etc. Then he comes back as Mecha Frieza and Trunks is like LOLNO and just curbstomps his army, his spaceship, Frieza himself AND his father without breaking a sweat. It was an ignoble end to a once terrifying villain. Then the androids come around and suddenly a scientist has created cyborgs stronger than Frieza, and the mighty Super Saiyan transformation, things he never knew about. And even they were just two pieces to an even more monstrous puzzle! All of the Z Fighters' work was undone, and they either had to attain even greater heights...or be further cast by the wayside and be useless. Dabura got the crap scared out of him seeing Goku go SS1 and, when Babidi asked if he could handle them right before they left, Dabura's response was "no amount of strength can defeat me," implying that he still felt he could win against the Saiyans despite their strength advantage. I dunno. He seemed more surprised that "Earthlings" could amass such power than anything. Keep in mind he scouted the planet 300 years ago, so a Roshi-level fighter was a rarity, let alone anything like Super Saiyans. It'd be like taking a time machine to the French Revolution, and then suddenly there's modern day tanks and armored vehicles roaming the streets. Rather than be scared though, he does challenge ALL the Saiyans to attack him at once, and only Gohan's insistence that he fight 1 on 1 prevented that. Dabura of course had no idea about SS2, and was just judging them off of what he saw from Goku's battle with Yakon and Babadi reading his energy level. I think Dabura had the edge, but since he hadn't dealt damage to Gohan to feed Buu his energy it makes me think Dabura was having more trouble than he appeared to have. I mean, the fight wasn't very long. They had only hit each other one time before both Babadi and Vegeta got impatient and started screaming about the fight. So very little energy was gathered from the one hit Gohan took. Had the fight continued and Gohan kept getting more and more exhausted I feel Dabura would've started getting some good energy from him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 20:31:56 GMT
I haven't been following the discussion from when it originally began so I don't want to butt in. I just wanted to give my thoughts on the general topic of Dabura vs Cell. I think it could go both ways and he could be interpreted as being as strong as either Perfect Cell or SPC. When Goku compared him to Cell, for convenience's sake maybe we were meant to assume Cell at his strongest. I think it could also work that Goku was comparing him to the last version of Cell he witnessed before he died so just full-power Perfect Cell. Dabura was still willing to fight the Saiyans after witnessing SSJ Goku against Yakon but that only tell us that he's at least as strong as Perfect Cell.
One of the few times DBS tried answering an old question from the manga might've been when Future Trunks fought Dabura. Dabura was easily winning against SSJ Future Trunks and, even after Trunks went SSJ2, Dabura still thought that he had a chance. This could imply that Dabura's power is closer to SPC than Perfect Cell since he put up a fight against a fresh SSJ2 and wasn't completely outclassed like Perfect Cell was against SSJ2 Gohan. It could be argued that Toriyama forgot how strong he intended Dabura to be and just went with Toyotaro's interpretation though. Like I said, I could see it going both ways with it being either SPC >= Dabura > Perfect Cell or SPC > Dabura >= Perfect Cell.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 6, 2017 23:34:03 GMT
Ashanark,
My apologies for you having to be the mod to read all this. I guess khan said you'd better make sure we weren't talking smack about each other's mommas or something?
You bring up some new points so even though I'm done with Axalon's argument, I'll address yours.
Keep in mind that confidence is highly overrated and a terrible judge of reality in the buu saga. After all, even after watching goku fight at ssj1 (who was admittedly stronger than gohan ssj1 at cell games) he was supremely confident that he could take on all 3 of them at once. Vegeta and goku both expressed supreme confidence that dabura was nothing to worry about and they could both easily defeat him by themselves. That parts kinda funny cause goku doesn't think vegeta can go ssj2 in order to defeat dabura (assuming he could at that point - which I would say he couldn't) so that means he's talking about beating him with only ssj1.
Also, one minor correction to your statement... He was not restored when he made that comment. Dabura said he could beat him before goku gave him the senzu. Keep in mind that dabura probably saw that and knew what was going on and still at least looked confident later when they were about to fight round 2 so that's why I say minor correction.
Well, that's something but, he did have a fireball blow up in front of him and was sent thru some rock. It's not his fault that his clothes are weak. When he comes out of the water he's pissed but there's also not a scratch, bruise or burn mark on him. Saligir at least scortched cells hands which I gotta give him credit for. Although I do recognize your point that clothing damage is kind of a thing in DB. It's just that the kick to the face that knocked Dabura way back wasn't an exploding fireball on his clothing.
That quote is so important even though buu's couple of physical strength attacks say otherwise.
When he says strength I think it's safe to say he's referring to one's overall strength as in their power level. He did not have unbelievable speed or durability to assume he was only weak strengthwise. What he's saying and it backs up my theory with gohan is that although all three of them are stronger than him, it's his techniques that more than make up the difference. Still I think Gohan is only slightly stronger than him but as I've repeatedly said, Gohan was on the defensive most all of the fight all the while fending off one new surprise after the next.
The overall argument at least from my perspective is not that question. It all started with is Dabura perfect cell level. Yes, it's quite possible that dabura (even with a slightly weaker than gohan pl) might have won but he is certainly not perfect cell power level. If we can all agree that gohan and dabura were close in power level then the argument is settled simply by Dabura=ssj adult gohan<ssj1 kid gohan<perfect cell. The fact that kid gohan in the manga only hit cell once and that was when cell was still not taking him seriously just goes to show that it was at least a significant gap between the last 2.
Just a heads up, but I do plan on pissing everyone off soon by making a thread in which I try to prove that kid gohan is weaker than goku at ssj1 levels at cell games but I've learned my lesson from this debate and won't post that until I have all my shit together first.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 6, 2017 23:38:28 GMT
I haven't been following the discussion from when it originally began so I don't want to butt in. I just wanted to give my thoughts on the general topic of Dabura vs Cell. I think it could go both ways and he could be interpreted as being as strong as either Perfect Cell or SPC. When Goku compared him to Cell, for convenience's sake maybe we were meant to assume Cell at his strongest. I think it could also work that Goku was comparing him to the last version of Cell he witnessed before he died so just full-power Perfect Cell. Dabura was still willing to fight the Saiyans after witnessing SSJ Goku against Yakon but that only tell us that he's at least as strong as Perfect Cell. One of the few times DBS tried answering an old question from the manga might've been when Future Trunks fought Dabura. Dabura was easily winning against SSJ Future Trunks and, even after Trunks went SSJ2, Dabura still thought that he had a chance. This could imply that Dabura's power is closer to SPC than Perfect Cell since he put up a fight against a fresh SSJ2 and wasn't completely outclassed like Perfect Cell was against SSJ2 Gohan. It could be argued that Toriyama forgot how strong he intended Dabura to be and just went with Toyotaro's interpretation though. Like I said, I could see it going both ways with it being either SPC >= Dabura > Perfect Cell or SPC > Dabura >= Perfect Cell. You do make a very interesting point. I think it's saligir's take that really makes me think the manga states this but it doesn't. When goku is talking about perfect cell level he doesn't say at the beginning of the cell games as DBM does. I think Super perfect cell is more of a fan term I believe and isn't a thing at all in the manga so it's strange but there's no reason to think he meant regular perfect cell at that point. But that doesn't change my argument that that was just a real quick guage of strength based on a blitz attack and not at all a reliable statement.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 6, 2017 23:39:43 GMT
I read some of the argument. I did think you both made good points. If you want more opinions to weigh in then right now I'm of that they overestimated Dabura was weaker than Perfect Cell for Gohan to even stand a chance against him in Super Saiyan form. I think Dabura had the edge, but since he hadn't dealt damage to Gohan to feed Buu his energy it makes me think Dabura was having more trouble than he appeared to have. This is a Gohan who's power and skill had declined a bit from not training. I'll take the cop out answer and think they were close enough in power that either could have won that fight, but Dabura had the edge from what we saw. No surprise since we tend to agree on a lot of topics, but you're above quote is pretty much my whole argument in a nutshell.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 6, 2017 23:45:02 GMT
Axalon,
I did read all of your last comment and I don't really have anything to add. I feel like if I try to argue any of your points further I would just be repeating the same evidence. I think if you look at what I said more carefully I do have all the evidence in my statements. It's really about the little details that you often seem to brush aside like when you keep saying that goku said he was at perfect cell level but you ignore the important parts of "probably" and "might" just as one example. I'll try to figure out the voting thing later tonight.
The one thing I do have to add though is that you said my argument is that I thought Gohan was going to win and that is not so. My main argument was that Dabura is certainly not perfect cell level. I also argued that gohan was at least equal in power level to dabura and that he might win eventually if he could get off the defensive that dabura's novel attacks had him on. It's no question that his going ssj2 would give him the win also but there's no guarantee that would have ever happened and I think goku was more than well aware of that when he still said to vegeta that "he's not losing."
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Post by Axalon on Jan 7, 2017 0:42:09 GMT
Also, one minor correction to your statement... He was not restored when he made that comment. Dabura said he could beat him before goku gave him the senzu. Keep in mind that dabura probably saw that and knew what was going on and still at least looked confident later when they were about to fight round 2 so that's why I say minor correction. You're clearly thinking of a moment prior to the senzu. Dabura states quite plainly post-senzu that he thinks Gohan is garbage to be cleaned up. I agree with this. He saw Goku defeat Yakon by using pure ki energy and thus was the strength he was referring to. Theoretically...it's possible to defeat Dabura as a SS1. Theoretically. You'd have to have enough blasting power and some good tactics though, neither of which Gohan tried to use as he just flew in brawling from the get-go. Goku or Vegeta would have a better shot of pulling this off since they're skilled fighters. Going SS2 certainly wouldn't have hurt either though. Cell would've been killed by a SS1 if he didn't have regeneration after all. It actually started with "Was Vegeta SS2 pre-Majin Vegeta" back on Page 101 of Today's Page Thread. Then spiraled out of control from there. I think it's clear that *my* perspective of the overall argument is Gohan vs. Dabura, hence the thread title, with Cell just being a very large distraction, with Vegeta being the argument starter before that. This is probably why we haven't seemed to find much common ground at all, as we've been trying to focus on two separate things with only a single point tying them together. I agree that Goku's "not losing" comment was likely in reference to how he'd have the fight in the bag if he went SS2. Nonetheless, I stand by the points I've made, just as you stand by yours. No need. It's a simple button option I have. But I already stated why I don't like generic polls.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 3:19:09 GMT
You do make a very interesting point. I think it's saligir's take that really makes me think the manga states this but it doesn't. When goku is talking about perfect cell level he doesn't say at the beginning of the cell games as DBM does. I think Super perfect cell is more of a fan term I believe and isn't a thing at all in the manga so it's strange but there's no reason to think he meant regular perfect cell at that point. But that doesn't change my argument that that was just a real quick guage of strength based on a blitz attack and not at all a reliable statement. I think Salagir's interpretation of Dabura's power is also valid since the only thing confirmed about him is that he's around Perfect Cell level. I agree that Super Perfect Cell is a fan term and Goku doesn't clarify which level of Cell he's referring to which is why I think it's difficult to gauge Dabura's power.
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