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Post by fooshin on Jan 7, 2017 4:32:46 GMT
took awhile but I found it...
There's where the train went off the tracks. Although to be clear the when did vegeta go ssj2 debate was already settled. I said your point of view was plausible and although I thought the dialog suggested otherwise there was no way I could prove it was for sure one way or the other.
It all comes down to if dabura was cell's level then he would have needed ssj2 at that point to defeat him in which case you would be right and vegeta already had ssj2. But since I suggested that Dabura was a lot closer to goku at cell games based on dabura vs gohan then it's unnecessary for vegeta to have to have had ssj2 already especially since he stated he was stronger than gohan at the cell games ssj1 to ssj1. If Dabura=goku cell games and vegeta>ssj1 kid gohan after 7 years of training then vegeta would have believed Dabura was easy, no ssj2 required.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 6:19:18 GMT
I was done with the argument until you were attempting to dismiss a point I was making about gast's damage and then I realized that your comment reminded me of something in this argument that seemed to directly contradict itself. To be honest it was a pretty small and clear point but I don't think you got it so I'll try to say it again. You said that although there was visible signs of damage (with gast) that it was irrelevant. That reminded me of a very true statement you made about dabura needing to damage gohan in order to gain energy for babidi. You even went on to say that he was a great servant and up until the point where he started to try to kill gohan he was actually trying to damage him. Damage isn't hard to draw in DB. I'm not sure how you're seeing that fireball attack, but it did explode point blank in front of or on him. That is unless he threw the fireball and it exploded halfway between for some crazy reason??? No there weren't that many frames drawn to show every bit of the attack but that is what's implied seeing as how the entire area wasn't destroyed as if by some large area attack. Gohan didn't have time to react and took a direct hit that threw him through rocks and dirt and into the water. When he came up there was no damage, he was wet and pissed only. Akira could have easily shown that Gohan was hurt (bruised, bloodied, holding his side anything really) but aside from some his shirt being burnt/torn whatever he was otherwise unharmed by his attack. To the point, since as you affirm, it was Dabura's job to damage gohan, and he never did it really throws a wrench in your idea that he was perfect cell level. Perfect cell had no issues dealing visible damage to a stronger kid gohan. I don't have a major problem with that claim especially if you're basing it off technique and stamina and not off power level, but I do with this one "Dabura is Perfect Cell level". That was what the argument was about in case you forgot and all signs point to that not being possible. Really? As I recall there were no marks at all and certainly no blood on gohan huh? I was talking about no blood or damage on gohan during the dabura fight. I said it right there in my comment. And then a correction to your babidi comments because they really prove it all in case the obvious lack of visible damage wasn't clear enough (at least in my translation). Babidi says "shit! What is Dabura doing? You have to cause more damage. If buu was here, these guys would be nothing!" Despite how you tried to spin it the other way, it's clear (at least in my copy) that Dabura wasn't doing shit for damage and it was pissing Babidi off. Does it not say the same in yours cause that's pretty clear that dabura was failing badly in spite of your claim that he was perfect cell level. |
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Post by Axalon on Jan 12, 2017 7:38:41 GMT
I'm not sure how you're seeing that fireball attack, but it did explode point blank in front of or on him. Ah, I see. I thought you were saying Dabura FIRED it point blank. The actual explosion, yeah, that's how like 99% of ki attacks work, of course it exploded when it hit him. You're judging a much longer fight against a much shorter fight, then pointing at the shorter fight and going "WOW! LESS DAMAGE!" This proves nothing on its own. It'd be like judging Goku vs. Frieza, but only taking one page of the fight into consideration. It is true that Cell did more damage to Gohan than Dabura. I've never disputed this. He did so, however, by doing more than just a single hit. Here is Gohan after Cell headbutted/punched him 4-5 times in a row to the face, and then pushed him into some rocks.  He looks remarkably okay, doesn't he? Slight bleeding on the forehead there, but that's literally 5x the number of hits that Dabura did. Here's Gohan after getting up from underneath the rocks.  Slightly more damage, but nothing too bad. As the fight continues, Cell continues to land hits on Gohan, before eventually crushing him a bear hug, then letting him go to spawn some Cell Jrs, then kicks him in the face one more time before Gohan goes SS2. Gohan ends up looking like this when all is said and done:  So we have some minor clothing damage, some blood from the lip and the forehead, and a scuff mark here or there. That was around 8-10 hits from Cell. So literally 8x-10x more opportunities for damage, not counting all the attacks that Cell missed with. Gohan isn't bleeding when hit one time by Dabura, but he does suffer more clothing damage, and as the fight continues has clearly used up a lot of his energy--a point I once again reference by Goku giving him a senzu before Gohan fights him again. Against Cell Gohan was doing just fine and dandy, despite having more damage, and never needed a senzu--he just needed to get mad. So yes, I consider Dabura to be on par with Perfect Cell. This is based on Dabura not being injured at all from a kick to the face by Gohan, while a stronger Gohan drew blood from Cell from a kick to the face, Goku's statements that Dabura is on par with Cell, Gohan using up a lot of his energy as a SS1 to keep up with Dabura--something Goku also did when he fought Cell--Goku giving him a senzu to go fight him again, Goku telling him to get mad and go SS2 to win, and Dabura not being impressed at all by Gohan for the Round 2 that never happened. huh? I was talking about no blood or damage on gohan during the dabura fight. I said it right there in my comment. Ah. I thought you were talking about Cell and then switched to Dabura, You're absolutely right and I'm glad you say that Babadi proves it all! Even better, the translation doesn't even matter! Let's take a look at the raw images that speak for themselves. Let's look at Buu's energy meter, shall we? We know that Pui Pui got a whopping 0% from Vegeta, and that Yakon likewise greedily sucked it all up for himself, so 0% from Goku. This is Buu's energy meter right after Gohan gets drained at the Budokai:  Note the position of the Majin symbol, to which I will simply call the "top". The meter has it just below halfway filled, which Babadi verifies. Now, keeping in mind that Dabura has successfully hit Gohan once, and once only with a fireball, and that neither Goku nor Vegeta have contributed an ounce of energy at this point...  Wouldya look at that? Now it's past the halfway mark?! But how did that happen if Dabura didn't damage him?! The answer? He did damage him. One hit pushed Buu from a bit below halfway to over halfway. All Dabura needed to do is keep up that pace, something Gohan eventually would not have been able to do due to poor stamina, and even more and more energy would get transmitted to Buu. This is what I was saying earlier by minimizing damage to himself while maximizing energy collection. It was only after Vegeta's impatient comments that Dabura seized on the idea of turning them against each other, knocking out two birds with one stone and revitalizing Buu almost instantly in the process. Is it true that Babadi wanted him to do MORE damage? Absolutely. He was impatient for Buu almost as much as Vegeta was impatient to fight Goku, to the point where after one hit had been landed on each fighter both were stomping on the ground like impudent children when the fight had barely begun. But surely this puts to rest the silly notion that Dabura didn't damage him at all. |
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Post by Eldagusto on Jan 12, 2017 10:03:52 GMT
I love Dabura, one of my Favorite Characters! It is just so annoying that they made it rather Ambiguous whether people are fighting SSJ1 or SSJ2 in the Buu Saga.
But I feel in order to beat Dabura Vegeta or Gohan need to go SSJ 2. Take that as you will.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 18:21:43 GMT
According to babidi only damage gives him energy and it's clear to both of us that although gohan is expending energy and getting worn down (I see this in Dabura, yes to a lesser degree too even if you don't) there is still no sign of actual damage on him despite even a direct hit. I wouldn't say dabura did absolutely zero damage as "not doing shit for damage" only implies an insignificant amount, not absolutely nothing, if anything gohan's hit to dabura that knocked him way back did an equal amount of very little "shit for damage."
Regarding your cell vs gohan point. Yeah, gohan looks pretty damaged(battered and bleeding are the tells). Yes, the fight was longer but also keep in mind it wasn't cell's goal to damage gohan at that point unlike dabura whose sole intention was to do so. He was smacking him around and not taking him seriously and when he went for the kill (with the squeeze) he did so pretty effortlessly. If damage was his point he could have at any time held him to the ground and just pulverized him no question. I always have to keep reminding you that this was also a stronger gohan which makes a big difference.
And now to the meter. Not sure why you think the energy can only come from babidi's enemies. Saligir even went as far as having Dabura suck himself directly into the tank and you never questioned that when it came up. Sure he's mad that his minions suck and fail at their tasks but that's hardly evidence that they don't contribute. It's pretty clear that vegeta f'd up pui pui pretty bad before eventually killing him. Yakon also was destroyed by goku. These are 2 of babidi's best henchmen contributing all their power to buu. What you are doing is mistaking the stoning as a reason to not kill someone. Obliterating someone causes 100% damage and therefore 100% energy to buu. Stoning doesn't actually kill someone and thus gives none. Also yakon eating gokus energy gives babidi none. You do agree that blowing someone up is the maximum damage you can do to someone and that babidi never said don't kill someone because I won't get any energy that way, right? So if 2 of his best guys gave everything they had and there was some insignificant damage dealt to both gohan and dabura then yeah, I can see the needle moving just the few ticks shown. I can't say I know how this works exactly as you clearly don't need to be in the ship fighting to give energy to buu but you're also forgetting that kibito was destroyed by dabura right nearby the ship and the far less significant yam and spopovitch were also killed presumably giving all three of their lives for babidi's cause. So that's five dead warriors even before the fight. If the meter is your only reason then I think I've squashed it right there.
The only reason I brought this back up again is because I didn't see the damage angle before you mentioned it in the today's page section. Before I thought I couldn't prove it to you in spite of pretty strong evidence but I think this is pretty solid and undeniable proof that he can't be anywhere near cell's level of strength. The bottom line is since it was Dabura's sole job to cause damage to gohan and he couldn't do it then he's far weaker than perfect cell. Cell had no problem causing damage to the stronger kid gohan even when that wasn't his purpose. Even though it was a longer fight, it was his very first hit that showed damage. It didn't require 10 frames of attack after attack to finally show something. After everyone of cell's volley of hits there was damage shown on gohan's face. Yeah, you couldn't see the back of his head after he was elbowed there and it's hard to tell where he was kicked but the other shots that were to his face showed damage every time. You simply can't tell me that you replace dabura with perfect cell in the dabura vs gohan fight and and the weaker adult gohan shows no damage even after only one successful attack. The other attacks would have also been successful btw if it was cell. Are you really trying to tell me that perfect cell wouldn't have been fast enough to cut an even weaker gohan in half before he could lift his hands if he was trying 100% to kill him? And even if he did somehow catch the blade you think cell wouldn't have been able to overpower his block and still slice right thru him??? You can't substitute the two and get the same result. Cell would have landed and caused damage or death to everyone of those attacks based on his fight with the stronger kid gohan no question about it.
edit - I forgot that dabura said the kai energy was no good so that's just 4 dead warriors in between the meter readings
further edit - eldagusto just blew my meter argument out of the water so I have to concede that either gohan doesn't need to be physically damaged as was stated by babidi to have energy stolen or he was damaged and AT forgot to draw it on him or he forgot where to draw the meter correctly. Apparantly being exhausted counts as being damaged which I have to chalk up bad writing or translating. Either way not good for proving my point and so now I'm back where I finished last time where I said I couldn't prove it one way or another and I'll just have to leave it at that.
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Post by Eldagusto on Jan 12, 2017 18:27:00 GMT
I got the impression Babiddi not only gained energy from Damaging his opponents, but also from some of the Energy they expend in battle.
But I am not sure he gains energy from his own Majins. I like to think he needs pure energy, as he can't use divine Energy, and if he could use his Majin's energy then all he would have to do is keep draining Dabura and then letting him nap.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 19:09:55 GMT
I got the impression Babiddi not only gained energy from Damaging his opponents, but also from some of the Energy they expend in battle. But I am not sure he gains energy from his own Majins. I like to think he needs pure energy, as he can't use divine Energy, and if he could use his Majin's energy then all he would have to do is keep draining Dabura and then letting him nap. Yeah, we already talked about that point and since he didn't use that to prove any point we more or less discounted it as an error. Although on further investigating it is heavily implied that majin energy doesn't feed buu and Saligir was wrong about this thereby blowing my meter argument out of the water... I hope you're proud of yourself for ruining my whole morning. arggghh.. I would say that energy can be drained from anyone (except kais and majin'd apparently) with the device yam used on gohan but otherwise it must be done threw physical damage which is then absorbed thru the ship. It's not clear if you need to be in the ship though as babidi tells dabura that they should lure them into the ship because "it's the surest way" to get the energy to buu. Clearly goku and vegeta fought outside the ship. Even though there was magic used for transportation, and it appeared that they weren't fully in the other worlds, it also is true that goku didn't wake up from vegeta's sucker punch back in babidi's ship meaning they really were outside. That being said I think just fighting or dying near by the ship is likely to cause the energy to go to buu. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 19:51:27 GMT
I love Dabura, one of my Favorite Characters! It is just so annoying that they made it rather Ambiguous whether people are fighting SSJ1 or SSJ2 in the Buu Saga. But I feel in order to beat Dabura Vegeta or Gohan need to go SSJ 2. Take that as you will. I agree that it was probably AT's intention that gohan couldn't ultimately defeat dabura without ssj2 even though I attribute his possible inability to do so at ssj1 because of dabura's Majin enhanced stamina and novel techniques and not because of his power level. Hence the whole debate as to whether dabura actually had Cells power level and I stand firm that Dabura was at best the same power level as adult gohan meaning no where near percent cell level It has however become clear to me in debating axalon and learning far more about this fight then most probably know that gohan was absolutely level one against Dabura and that AT either forgot or willfully retconned his ssj2 against kibito. There is no doubt in my mind that the kibito fight is what's wrong and not the dabura fight. AT wanted to continue with Gohan's struggles with his abilities and him going ssj2 for kibito was a clear mistake. As far as I'm concerned the only time gohan ever went ssj2 was against cell or also Bojack if we are talking dbm. |
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Post by Axalon on Jan 12, 2017 20:05:24 GMT
Eh, I'd say the fight with Kibito works. Gohan was pissed at the time and could tap into SS2 through his rage.
Against Dabura and later against Buu he just...wasn't angry enough. This is consistent with Gohan's character during the Cell Games. Personal injury to himself didn't trigger SS2, it was only when his friends and family were being tormented, culminating in #16 pleading with him before dying that he snapped. Fast forward years later and again personal injury to himself from say, Buu, doesn't trigger SS2, but slap around Videl a bit and suddenly the SS2 rage is at the forefront.
It also shows how Goku and Vegeta have progressed further than he has with their ability to enter SS2 at will while he needs to rage out.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 20:30:26 GMT
Eh, I'd say the fight with Kibito works. Gohan was pissed at the time and could tap into SS2 through his rage. Against Dabura and later against Buu he just...wasn't angry enough. This is consistent with Gohan's character during the Cell Games. Personal injury to himself didn't trigger SS2, it was only when his friends and family were being tormented, culminating in #16 pleading with him before dying that he snapped. Fast forward years later and again personal injury to himself from say, Buu, doesn't trigger SS2, but slap around Videl a bit and suddenly the SS2 rage is at the forefront. It also shows how Goku and Vegeta have progressed further than he has with their ability to enter SS2 at will while he needs to rage out. There are other examples I can give you but this should be sufficient: Goku tells gohan "remember how when you fought with cell you used all your power.." goku was there at the tournament and saw plainly in front of him whether gohan went ssj2. Why would he reference a fight from years ago when they were both there at the tournament and he did it right there merely a few hours prior? Not to mention that gohan did it pretty effortlessly against kibito and was practically bragging about it (how bout I show you the next level or something like that). What exactly was kibito doing that got him so freaking enraged to go there as you say? Was it because he was staring at him? Is that all it takes cause that's not much. We see gohan looking pissed as shit after coming up from the water during dabura's fight so once again this seems obviously where the mistake occurred. Edit - oh yeah, and videl was totally irrelevant. Yes, if he went ssj2 at that point it would make sense but keep in mind he had totally relaxed before fighting kibito. He smiled like 4 times. Was giving thumbs up to people was embarrassed he was found out as the golden warrior and several other things happened to change his mood before facing kibito. That and he never actually pulled off ssj2 when videl happened, even if he was close. To say those things that happened prior somehow unlocked him several minutes later when he was in a completely different state of mind is one hell of a stretch |
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Post by Axalon on Jan 12, 2017 20:35:12 GMT
Eh, I'd say the fight with Kibito works. Gohan was pissed at the time and could tap into SS2 through his rage. Against Dabura and later against Buu he just...wasn't angry enough. This is consistent with Gohan's character during the Cell Games. Personal injury to himself didn't trigger SS2, it was only when his friends and family were being tormented, culminating in #16 pleading with him before dying that he snapped. Fast forward years later and again personal injury to himself from say, Buu, doesn't trigger SS2, but slap around Videl a bit and suddenly the SS2 rage is at the forefront. It also shows how Goku and Vegeta have progressed further than he has with their ability to enter SS2 at will while he needs to rage out. There are other examples I can give you but this should be sufficient: Goku tells gohan "remember how when you fought with cell you used all your power.." goku was there at the tournament and saw plainly in front of him whether gohan went ssj2. Why would he reference a fight from years ago when they were both there at the tournament and he did it right there merely a few hours prior?Because that was Gohan at his peak. That was a sustained rage that he kept up even after he thought Cell had died along with Goku. Gohan's rage at the tournament was a mere blip on the radar by comparison. Kibito did nothing. Gohan was still furious at what happened to Videl. By the time he fights Dabura he's cooled off a bit, helped by the fact that Videl has recovered already, and can't get angry enough again. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 20:41:13 GMT
See edit above about videl.
Also your other argument is weak. The only reason why it wasn't sustained was because he was immediately attacked by the Majin's and subsequently drained. There wasn't the slightest indication that he was going to lose his ssj2 otherwise. And to the point of him having a stronger ssj2 as a kid, we'll that's irrelevant as its stated that he's weaker as an adult due to slacking off with his training and has nothing to do with his anger levels. His going ssj2 would never have got him to where he was as a kid so there's no point to be made about him preferring to reference that time over the one that supposedly just happened a few hours prior
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Post by Axalon on Jan 12, 2017 21:05:45 GMT
^All in all you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Goku could've chosen either the Cell event or the Budokai, or chosen BOTH. It wouldn't have mattered.
Call Videl "irrelevant" all you like, but the real point isn't Cell or Videl, it's that Gohan could not achieve the same anger he felt at either of those times to go SS2.
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 21:47:54 GMT
^All in all you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Goku could've chosen either the Cell event or the Budokai, or chosen BOTH. It wouldn't have mattered. Call Videl "irrelevant" all you like, but the real point isn't Cell or Videl, it's that Gohan could not achieve the same anger he felt at either of those times to go SS2. I'm confused by your last line. Almost sounds like you're admitting he didn't go ssj2 in front of kibito in which case we're done. But in case you're not then I did say I had more examples so here's another one to shoot you down with: supreme kai tells gohan as they're off for round 2 with Dabura while goku and vegeta begin their fight, "well, it's time for you to become angry like Goku said! Show us your true strength of your anger!" Clearly he never witnessed Gohan's ssj2 at the tournament. He was right there and was even binding him in this state. He knows how to sense ki and is well aware that was ssj2 after seeing him fight as ssj1 against Dabura. He never said "it's time for you to go ssj2 like I just witnessed a few hours earlier" but instead references goku's comments that he had no first hand knowledge about. Try explaining away that one. Those 2 combined make my molehill a whole lot bigger. The truth is he retconned it on purpose or on accident. The dialog proves it. The ease at which he did it for kibito but later couldn't do it at all proves it. |
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Post by Axalon on Jan 12, 2017 22:18:14 GMT
I'm confused by your last line. Almost sounds like you're admitting he didn't go ssj2 in front of kibito in which case we're done. Interesting: AT wanted to continue with Gohan's struggles with his abilities and him going ssj2 for kibito was a clear mistake. As far as I'm concerned the only time gohan ever went ssj2 was against cell or also Bojack if we are talking dbm. You're the only one who's said that as far as you're concerned he didn't go SS2 there. Are you done with yourself? He clearly DID witness Gohan get angry at the tournament, and wants him to do it again for the "final battle" against Babadi and Dabura so they can stop Buu from waking up. PFFT. Yeah, okay. Any ability to sense ki he might have is clearly of a crude variety. Evidence? Every fight in Babadi's spaceship and how much he underestimated everyone. Or how Gohan sensed Buu forming from a cloud while he was screaming about finally achieving victory and hadn't noticed Buu at all.   Or how he thought as Kibitokai that he could actually contribute in a fight against Buutenks before the Old Kai told him to sit down and shut up. Simple. He wants Gohan to go full power and feel his rage just as Goku told him to do, so that Babadi's reign of terror will be over before it can ever truly begin. The dialog proves nothing. Gohan clearly went SS2 at the tournament. Toriyama later spells out exactly what each form looks like when Goku demonstrates them to Buu, and has been consistent with every time a fighter is in SS2 or not, unlike Toei. Gohan clearly attempts to do it, but doesn't have the anger to achieve the transformation, the fruits of him slacking off during peacetime while Goku and Vegeta kept training.  He had the rage twice before this, and now he can't.  Just as Goku couldn't turn SS1 at will right away, the same case is easily made with Gohan and SS2. Your molehill is still a molehill. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 12, 2017 23:55:33 GMT
um.. here's you're quote
It's not my fault if you're not clear. I'm assuming now you mean against dabura and dabura round 2 as the other 2 times. When we're focusing on the tournament as one example and dabura's fight as the other it gets real confusing when you don't specify the other 2 times especially when you start by saying the point isn't videl.
So even though I made it clear that videl was at least 10 minutes earlier and gave plenty of concrete evidence that he didn't go ssj2 for her at that moment of rage and was in a completely different state of mind when he faced kibito (smiling, embarrassed, smiling, thinking about his opponent... if anything he was shown to be overall happy at that point, he had just saved his girlfriend afterall), you simply ignore all that evidence and say yeah he went ssj2 there for sure and it absolutely doesn't show any conflict whatsoever. You can't even bring yourself to admit that there's a conflict at the pure ease at which he does it with kibito and his complete inability hours later when he tries again. Please at least address the evidence I presented. It's pretty sound. Please go back and look at the few pages before he went ssj2. He was never mad. At worst he was concerned he would get kicked out of school for exposing himself. There was no rage at all, zero, and he relatively went ssj2 effortlessly. You do see this too?
Yes, you don't remember but I already said that kaioshen's primary purpose in all this was to be a whiny bitch. But to use your own words against you, you claimed that because dabura had fought gohan he was speaking from authority when he later was confident that he could beat gohan, that he was trash. Kaioshen was shown to actually restrain ssj2 gohan, he sized him up and admitted he might not be able to hold him and just barely managed to do so. This isn't just an observation but an actual hands on experience in knowing how strong gohan was at a ssj2 level. In your own words there's no doubt he knows exactly what gohan's level was there. As far as most of his other fails, he simply didn't know how strong goku and vegeta were as they had never revealed themselves so it was impossible for him to know. Typically the stonger you are the greater your senses (example:vegetto in dbm claims he can feel the tinest vibration within a mile I believe) It's clear that gohan felt buu first but that's not surprising since he was much stronger than kai. Neither Dabura nor babidi reacted either so I don't see your point about kai being so inferior. Gohan was focused on his power level and trying to unlock ssj2, he was in the zone, ki speaking when he felt it. I never said Kiaoshen had a superior sense of ki sensing only that he could do it. That he was aware of power levels and just because he's not as good at it as gohan is no reason to act like he had a "crude" level of detection. Kibito kai is just normal DBZ. Whenever there's a fusion the new person is always overwhelmed with their new power. It's also unknown just how powerful he really was. It may well be that he could have made a difference but old kai was wise enough to know the danger of him being taken if he failed so don't put too much credit in him not knowing his own strength. I'm sure he did.
See how you ignore my point in why he would reference goku's comment about something that happened years ago and not something he just seen himself mere hours ago??? I think you even said that gohan going ssj2 was years ago so why would vegeta say he was the other one right after he witnessed goku go ssj2 for the first time. But know the years ago thing is what matters and not what kaioshen witnessed for himself. He even says it like he's no idea how stong he can get and is excited to see. Here's the quote one more time "Well, it's time for you to become angry, (not like I witnessed myself but rather), like goku said! Show us your true strength of your anger! (as in I've never seen it and I'm so excited to finally do so, yippie!)
yes, that's your problem. You don't believe in the dialog when it doesn't go your way.
duh, that's the part I'm saying he later retconned. You think AT never made a mistake or had a plot hole or anything? jeez...
and yet mere hours prior when positively beaming with happiness he pulls off the transformation no problem. Yeah, he was angry 10, 15 minutes earlier (even if it wasn't enough to go ssj2 then) but not even remotely angry when he transformed for kibito as if only doing it to boast his strength. If you weren't so damn dismissive of the dialog that part would be screamingly obvious.
when you start addressing my mountain of points directly then maybe I'll have a molehill.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 13, 2017 0:23:12 GMT
um.. here's you're quote It's not my fault if you're not clear. I'm assuming now you mean against dabura and dabura round 2 as the other 2 times. When we're focusing on the tournament as one example and dabura's fight as the other it gets real confusing when you don't specify the other 2 times especially when you start by saying the point isn't videl. I mention Cell and Videl, the only two times he goes SS2. I even use the word timeS--plural. How is it not clear that I'm speaking of two instances and not one? I see it and I say it's irrelevant. He was angrier at the tournament than when he fought Dabura and Majin Buu. This is glaringly obvious by Gohan trying and failing to go SS2 from that point onwards. Silly? Perhaps. But that's literally what happens. DB isn't the most coherent of stories. Dabura hasn't seen SS2 Gohan. All he's seen is SS1. He has every right to say Gohan's trash when he hasn't seen him at his true power. This is precisely why Supreme Kai wants Gohan to get angry--so he'll achieve that same level of strength. Which is precisely why he wants him to get that angry again to defeat Babadi and Dabura. And yet Kibito knows about Super Saiyans. I'm saying Supreme Kai has a crude level of detection because that's exactly what it is. His horrible judgments are proof enough. He restrained SS2 Gohan and knows that Dabura should be no match based on that alone--yet clearly remains clueless. To use your own words, he's there to be a "whiny bitch" and set up the Buu arc. Using him to measure anything is absurd. Now I know you're trolling. Kibitokai making a difference against Buutenks? When Gohan was having a tough time and Goku considered even regular Super Buu absolute suicide? Even Tien at best deflected a tiny finger blast from Buutenks. I did address it: ^All in all you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Goku could've chosen either the Cell event or the Budokai, or chosen BOTH. It wouldn't have mattered. The point that matters here is not WHEN Gohan had access to the form, but letting his rage loose in the present to use the form again. I have no idea what you're even saying here. He simply wants Gohan to get angry to defeat Dabura. "Get angry like Goku said!" is nothing more than that. Supreme Kai is simply telling Gohan to follow the advice of his father so he can vanquish Babadi's evil. I don't believe in your interpretation of the dialog. You're the one proclaiming headcanon over actual events in the manga. Toriyama's completely fallible. That's neither here nor there. Supreme Kai is simply telling Gohan to follow the advice of his father. The events speak for themselves. Gohan, no matter that he was smiling a few moments before, could muster up the anger at that point in time to go SS2. Later on, he couldn't. The truth is that Gohan slacked off and slacked off HARD. Goku and Vegeta demonstrate the ease of going to SS2 as a direct contrast to Gohan who needs to get worked up to access the form. For whatever reason, he was more worked up at the tournament than he was when fighting Dabura or Buu. It's as simple as that. You're trying to insist there's a retcon where none exists. Making mountains out of molehills. I've addressed every point you've brought up, and referenced them time and time again with manga scans galore. You just don't like my answers because they disagree with your headcanon. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 13, 2017 1:11:35 GMT
when I demand you give me a specific reason why he wasn't at all enraged when he went ssj2 and did so relatively effortlessly your response is "Silly?"
Ok then.
Exactly so since kiaoshen has seen gohan's ssj2 he has all the authority in the world to be aware of it and know the difference between 1 and 2. Kiaoshen constantly expresses doubt about their chances but once he hears goku say that gohan can beat dabura if he goes level 2 suddenly he's happy and telling him, hey go do what your dad said. Special emphasis here.... not what I just saw you do with my own eyes and felt with my own strength when I binded you. To be completely honest here I really thought that AT had also retconned his ssj1 at the tournament when kiaoshen exclaimed "So that's why they're so confident! When they want, they can power up just like Goku did." Then I realized he had just briefly witnessed SSJ2 for the first time and it became clear that he hadn't witnessed it at the tournament. AT forgot about it or did it on purpose but either way it was a retcon. There's your third example and your other two explanations were pretty damn weak, sorry.
To one degree or another, I just debunked all three of the scenarios you gave to show he didn't know what was going on and this is your response. Exactly, ignore the dialog when it's not in your favor.
How exactly do you know how strong kibitokai is? Talk about headcanons. You always speak with certainty about things you can't possibly know. You don't have a clue how strong he is other than that the lying, manipulating old kai told him not to go. I gave very good reasons and you just dismiss them like nothing. He may have very likely been much stronger than Vegeta and goku by themselves based on what we know of fusion. Supreme kai wasn't crazy strong but he at least did better than Dabura against fat buu facing him head on. If kibito was similar you'd have a pretty damn strong fusion right there. But still it would be pointless and a danger just as gotenks turned out to be. Old kais plan was for vegetto and he was right to tell him to stay. Nothing indicates he didn't know his own strength or that he was weak af and didn't know better. That's just you making stuff up to fit your narrative.
Seriously, I'm reading the manga and quoting while I respond to you and you think I'm proclaiming headcanon?
[quote}Toriyama's completely fallible.[/quote]
Thanks, your halfway to accepting ssj2 was a mistake.
Yes, it's true it was a mistake that conflicts with the events and dialog that follow ergo recton. Since your best response to my explanation is "Silly" then thanks again.
The part you didn't remember was a reference to the original ssj2 argument where the frame is black, vegeta just saw goku go ssj2 for the first time and says "It looks like that jerk kakarot can now turn ssj2 as well" You said he was referring to himself being the other and I said he was referring to gohan being the other and then your response was that was years ago, why would he bring up something from years ago. I don't have time atm to pull up your specific quotes but suffice it to say that you turn the tables here and say why would kiaoshen refer to something he had just seen when years ago there was something that someone else had seen.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 13, 2017 2:09:45 GMT
when I demand you give me a specific reason why he wasn't at all enraged when he went ssj2 and did so relatively effortlessly your response is "Silly?" Ok then. I'm calling the DB story silly. Not you. I'll say it again. For whatever reason (likely Videl) Gohan mustered up more rage at the Budokai than he did fighting Dabura/Buu. That's a fact. This is precisely what I'm saying! He wants him to go SS2 to defeat Dabura, and telling him to listen to his father. Why are you disagreeing with me? My explanations fit perfectly. You just don't care for them. - Gohan went SS2 at the Budokai - Gohan did not go SS2 afterwards - Logically, Gohan was angrier at the Budokai than he was fighting Dabura, because he never goes SS2 again after the tournament - Goku says he can win if Gohan gets really, really angry - Supreme Kai really, really wants him to get angry now In what way is any of that chain of events incorrect? Really now? Where? Scenario 1: Are you now saying that Supreme Kai in fact DID know how powerful Vegeta was in comparison to Pui Pui? Because I don't see that debunked anywhere, just a weak acknowledgement that well maybe he hadn't seen Goku and Vegeta's full power. Scenario 2: I've also seen no debunking of the scan I posted where Gohan sensed a "monstrous chi" while Supreme Kai did not. The best defense you've come up with is "Well I didn't say he was SUPERIOR at sensing ki". Supreme Kai was clueless about damn near everything. You yourself say on multiple occasions he's only there to be a "whiny bitch" but suddenly when your argument needs him he's suddenly more credible? The only two things he knows for certain is that Buu is stronger than everyone, and that he felt Gohan's power as a SS2 yet was still concerned about Babadi's weak fighters. --Weak fighters that wouldn't be a concern after having felt SS2 Gohan's power. Scenario 3: And now are you also saying that Kibitokai would've made a key difference against Buutenks? Please. Explain that one for me. How strong is the mighty Kibitokai? How has this been debunked at all? How is Old Kai wrong in telling him to sit down? I see no debunking. The only thing we've agreed and never disputed on is that Supreme Kai restrained SS2 Gohan at the tournament. Which even then you've been wishy-washy on saying he only went SS2 against Cell. So why is Old Kai not a credible source? Please, explain that one for me. I'm all ears. Is he wrong? Is he as bad at misjudging people as his successor and Kibitokai actually the strongest fighter in the universe? Please, explain. How is the Old Kai who unlocked Gohan's potential, and gave his life so Goku could join the fight against Buu, and came up with the plan to use Vegito, not a credible source? I say he's not strong enough to matter in a fight against Buutenks, based on Old Kai's statements. Am I wrong? If so, where am I wrong? Please, point it out to me. We know Kibito isn't similar because he died instantly, and there's no way Kibitokai is stronger than Gohan with all his potential unlocked, or Goku, or Buutenks. Again, if I'm wrong on this and Kibitokai would somehow have been able to help against Buutenks or Buuhan, please show me where. I'm genuinely curious to hear this explanation. Please, tell me how Kibitokai would've helped against Buutenks and not just get in the way or be absorbed and make Buu even stronger (as Old Kai said he would if he fought with Goku). I say he's not strong enough to matter in a fight against Buutenks, based on Old Kai's statements. Am I wrong? If so, where am I wrong? Please, point it out to me. Do I know his exact strength? No, I don't. He never fights anyone. I *do* know he's not strong enough to matter, again based on the Old Kai. How am I making it up? Old Kai specifically says he's not that good and tells him to sit down right after he proclaims he's going to help Goku.  Here ya go: AT wanted to continue with Gohan's struggles with his abilities and him going ssj2 for kibito was a clear mistake. As far as I'm concerned the only time gohan ever went ssj2 was against cell or also Bojack if we are talking dbm. Isn't even a day old man, come on. Second time I've quoted this particular quote too. All this talk about a retcon is you trying to justify your viewpoint on Gohan and going SS2, in clear defiance of the fact he was SS2 at the tournament. All I see is a Gohan without the necessary discipline that Goku and Vegeta have. I see no retcon. Gohan can't do it because he's a slacker who doesn't have the rage. He did it at the tournament because he could tap into more rage than against Dabura or Buu. I've said this like five times now. And again, I'm not calling you silly. What I'm actually saying is silly is Gohan having more rage then than he does now against Dabura or Buu. I think that's silly, but those are also the facts. Ahhhh, that. Yeah, I can see why this would confuse you. It's all about context. In the context of Vegeta: - He sees Goku go SS2 - He doesn't flip out that he's been surpassed - He calmly folds his arms, makes a mental note, then goes on his way - This is why I made the claim that Vegeta likely had SS2 already In the context of S. Kai: - Supreme Kai is telling Gohan to follow Goku's advice to get mad--a point I've again brought up like four times. - Was he personally there witnessing Gohan battling Cell? No. - Does he need Gohan to get mad to defeat Dabura? Yes. - Ergo "Get mad like Goku told you to so we can win!" I fail to see what's so complicated here. It's why I say it doesn't matter which situation, Cell Games or Budokai, gets brought up. The point is not WHEN Gohan got mad before, it's that he needs to get mad NOW. S Kai is telling him to get angry, like his father told him, to end the threat of Babadi, Dabura, and Buu. If we had swapped it out to "Gohan! Get mad like you were at the Budokai!" literally nothing changes in the story. |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 13, 2017 5:51:49 GMT
Wow, so what I got from that was mostly that you have no idea what this argument is about. I'm going to spell it out for you... I am arguing that gohan going ssj2 at the tournament was retconned by the author. Of course I admit that I see him going ssj2 at the tournament. Holy crap! That's the whole point of me saying he retconned it. I'm not denying he initially intended him to be that way only that he changed his mind or forgot about it later. You do see that's where this started and how that's been my whole focus in proving it was retconned from the beginning? In case you don't know what retconned means, here's an example: When goku took the rabbit gang to the moon it was established as canon that humans, saiyans and "rabbitmen" could breath in space. At that point it was an undeniable fact in the dragonball universe. Later the author decided to science up his story and decided that space suits were needed in space and that goku actually had to breath namekian air or he would die in space when he fought freeza. At that point the undeniable fact that these people could live on the surface of the moon went into the trash and it was retconned, it was no longer canon even though it was right there in the story forever. Now, retconning still requires belief in facts and not everyone will agree with them. There will always be some nut ball that says oh, no it was right there in the beginning, they must have been mistaken about it later, goku hadn't tried breathing in space in a long time and just forgot he could do it. There's just no getting through to people like this who have their heads so far up their asses that they can't get over the fact that things in a story can and do get retconned. Now, I think you're far more reasonable than most of those people. I understand that this isn't as simple a retcon to explain as the rabbitmen scenario but that's why I'm continuing the fight to prove it. You often come up with valid reasons for things I often overlook but that being said I admit it's very frustrating how you dismiss valid quotes from the manga without good reason, you make statements as if they are facts when you can't possibly know they are and you never seem to want to admit that you're wrong about anything and can't even see my perspective 9 times out of 10. All that being said I still plan on responding to all of your points tomorrow and continue to try to prove to you very specifically that gohan as ssj2 during the tournament was retconned later during the buu saga when it became apparent that either the author forgot about it or intentionally changed the narrative of his story so that gohan could be shown to still be struggling mightily with his confidence, self worth, doubt, fear and a lot of that revolves around him simply not having the true fighting nature he knows he doesn't have. He doesn't like to get angry because he's simply not that person. All of those ideas get tossed out the window when he is shown near effortlessly pulling out ssj2 for kibito. You can argue all day long that he intended to tie what happened to videl to his becoming ssj2 for kibito but the facts simply don't show that to be the case. Your excuse that it's "silly" and "incoherent" at that point aren't good enough. That wasn't just one or two frames that might have shown a mistake, it was a whole chapter of it. In fact it shows totally and completely that he didn't need to be in a rage, he merely needed to boast to kibito that he could do it no problem.
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