It was clear from the beginning you couldn't be convinced of anything so at least I learned a few new things in the process and perhaps the few that read some of this did too.
If I wasn't willing to be convinced of new possibilities I wouldn't have debated three whole pages with you. I simply don't agree with your arguments.
Could my phrasing have been a bit better? Probably, though the same could be said for the both of us.
You've brought up a couple of new points though (and much more neatly formatted and easier to read) so I'll bite one more time, if only for the improved tone and formatting, in the hope that we can remain civil.
You keep bringing up that Perfect Cell would kill in one hit if that was his goal.
Okay.
Given that more damage = more energy for Buu, why would Dabura do this? If the goal is bringing Buu back, killing in one hit is a waste of precious energy. The only time he actively tries to murder Gohan is when he spits at him after being distracted by Vegeta to the point where he stopped paying attention to Gohan completely. Even the sword slash was a large, telegraphed move. Just a few panels earlier we saw Dabura moving at a speed fast enough that Gohan didn't even know where he was until Dabura helpfully yelled out to him before blasting him with a fireball. Had he wanted to truly kill him, he could have kept spitting on him or just done that speed blitz again that Gohan couldn't react to the first time.
I'll address your point about Vegeta killing next.
Babadi tells Vegeta to fight as hard as he can and steal energy
first, then throws in the line about killing him. He knows Goku isn't going to lie down and die without a fight. More fighting = More Buu energy.
It seems clear to me that Babadi is using the lure of killing Goku as a reward for Vegeta to do his bidding and unseal Buu in the process. I don't see where it says killing is just as good as prolonging a fight out.
Which is why the entire debate started about how tired Gohan was and why I kept highlighting it.
Goku wants him to go SS2. This is evident when he tells Gohan to get angry. This is why I've continually stated that SS1 Gohan would've eventually lost unless he went SS2, and why I believe Goku said he "wasn't losing". Goku also had this same type of attitude when Cell was punching Gohan in the face.
"Oh don't worry Piccolo! He's not losing!"
"HIS RIBCAGE IS GETTING CRUSHED IN A BEAR HUG! MY GIANT EARS CAN HEAR HIS BONES CRACKING."
"He hasn't lost yet! He just needs to get MAD!"
I also again bring up the argument that more fighting = more energy. The goal is not to kill him, it is to damage him. Gohan only took some damage because he was only hit one time and the fight was incredibly short.
If the fight had continued without being interrupted (and we know that Goku felt the need to give him a senzu before he fought Dabura again) then I say Gohan would've been worn down and been made easy pickings for Dabura, who would've treated him like a punching bag.
I agree he did so with little effort. Where we disagree is *how* he turned with little effort. I say he still had rage leftover, evidenced by Gohan's inability later. You claim it must be a Toriyama retcon.
We both agree he was SS1 against Dabura. I say it was a deliberate choice to show how inefficient Gohan's been with his power.
I again bring up the point that if the other fight had been swapped in, it would have made no difference. "Gohan get mad!" just isn't enough to motivate him. It wasn't enough against Cell when his bones were getting crushed and Piccolo was prepared to commit suicide to try and save him, and it isn't enough here. He has to feel some kind of personal connection getting violated, which again is consistent against both Cell and later Kibito--even if Videl did indeed get better--those images are still going to be lingering there, for a short while at the very least.
When Cell and Buu were beating him to a pulp, he couldn't do it. I say if the fight with Dabura had continued he couldn't have done it then either.
It is those same nuances that make me believe he was SS2 beforehand. Vegeta is a very known explosive quality. His subdued, thoughtful reaction to me is extremely telling.
You say that "It may well be that he could have made a difference". I disagreed and say he could not have made a difference. Not against Buutenks. Even Goku with SS3 could not have made a difference against a power disparity that large. Fusion is quite literally their only hope against Buutenks at that point. There's no weak spot like Oozaru Vegeta's tail. There's no solar flare/slice his body parts off with a Kienzan like Frieza. Your only hope is to run out the fusion timer, and even then Super Buu > SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta combined--not literally combined I mean.
This is why I agree with the Old Kai that he would have been useless.
I was being sarcastic by this point. I thought calling Kibitokai the mightiest warrior in the universe would've given that away, when we all know it's Hercule. I was apparently mistaken, because the internet makes sarcasm a murky pit.
That was only one part of my argument. I've used his entire limited appearance from when he first appeared.
He saw Gohan go SS2 at the tournament, but is concerned at the paltry power levels of Pui Pui and Yakon. Even IF it was a retcon as you claim, this still doesn't change that SS1 Gohan would still be more than enough against everyone short of Dabura, and he should by all rights know that.
I disagree, because he never fought against Kid Buu. If he were on even just Vegeta's level he could've swapped in to buy some more time. If he was on SS3 Goku's level, then he would've stood a chance of straight up destroying Buu altogether. The fact that he chooses to move out of the way and let those two fight while the fate of the universe is at stake I think speaks volumes. Why do you see him as being stronger or on par?
I agree, I just don't see it happening against Buutenks, or apparently, even Kid Buu given that he chooses not to join in the battle. It would be like asking Yamcha to help fight Beerus.
Against opponents with decidedly more notable weak points or by suddenly pulling out transformations. Oozaru Vegeta's weakness was his giant tail that Yajirobe sliced off, a weak spot known about for years by that point in time in DB. Frieza could get cut in half by even Krillin, and Goku would've lost the fight completely if he hadn't been able to transform. Buutenks? He just laughs and regenerates from that. Even Super Buu, a massive downgrade below Buutenks, is enough for Goku to immediately declare fighting him to be suicide.
I think Buutenks has enough power in this situation that any attempt short of Gokhan or Vegito is pointless. That is why I say he would've been no help here, and likely why the Old Kai told him to sit down.
I again reference my point of seeing Gohan's power at the tournament. SS1 Gohan alone should have pleased him to no end and he should've been laughing all the way to Dabura with power like that on his side against the weakling Pui Pui or Yakon. SS1 Goku was practically 4x Yakon's power before even going SS2, and Gohan said that if he and Goku had teamed up they could've beaten Yakon without even bothering to transform.
It isn't until Yakon is defeated effortlessly (through sheer energy output and nothing else) that Supreme Kai realizes how wrong he is...even though he should've known just from SS1 Gohan. He's aware of the Super Saiyan transformation even before he ever sees Gohan transform after all.
A fair point about Kibito being suppressed.
Ehhhh. Kibito slightly looked down upon "ningen" as Zamasu would call them. He had issues just bringing a near-dead Gohan to the Planet of the Kais before he got overridden, then was sputtering in astonishment at the mere thought that a "ningen" could pull out the Z Sword when the Mighty Kais could not. I think it was more slight racism or being very strict with protocol than anything else, which he very quickly got over.
Again I don't see this being the case. If that were true he would've stepped in to fight Kid Buu when the fate of the galaxy was on the line, and not let a weaker Vegeta (going with this theory that he's supposedly stronger than SS3 Goku) fight in his place. If he was stronger than both Goku or Vegeta he would've definitely stepped in to help, as he'd be the strongest warrior on the planet, second only to Gohan as a matter of fact, and he wouldn't have the energy drain Goku suffers from in his SS3 form.