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Post by The Masterman on Oct 3, 2016 4:57:23 GMT
I don't think most people have strong feelings about the Vargas other than "LOL stupid birds, they're basically unaware of a considerably high amount of serious stuff happening around them". I don't see how Raichi having people or solid holographic hoaxes fighting for him inherently makes him a bad character or unlikable. Could you please elaborate more on that? It is a tournament. Even if they are holograms he is not the one fighting which simply defeats the point of a tournament (To show who is the strongest fighter). But they're allowed to use any means and he has a machine with anger ghosts, Tapion has a demon, Gotanks is two different people, XXI can force people out of view. There's no rules saying that THEY THEMSELVES must be fighting only that they're present in the ring to start the match. Plus you have a tournament full of fighters who mostly want a challenge or are trying to push themselves and restricting it to just ki blasts and hand to hand fights instead of ANYTHING happening would be so freaking boring.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2016 5:41:44 GMT
I don't think most people have strong feelings about the Vargas other than "LOL stupid birds, they're basically unaware of a considerably high amount of serious stuff happening around them". I don't see how Raichi having people or solid holographic hoaxes fighting for him inherently makes him a bad character or unlikable. Could you please elaborate more on that? It is a tournament. Even if they are holograms he is not the one fighting which simply defeats the point of a tournament (To show who is the strongest fighter). This doesn't have any bearing on his character. Would an evil emperor who controls thugs and uses them to fight for him be inherently bad? Are you one of those that share this "strong character = good written character" idea?
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 3, 2016 11:18:13 GMT
How can anyone like her? Not only that how can anyone like the Vargas? They are the reason why some characters become unlikable to begin with. 1. Bra is down right the most unlikable character thus far. Really? Senzu beans in a tournament. That just defeats the meaning of a tournament then. Its to show who is the strongest fighter. Teleports out the ring take off her weighted clothes and teleport back in. How is that even allowed? Teleport her oppenet out the ring. Most ridiculous thing i have seen. 2. Raichi. Oh god the man literally has other people fighting for him but Vargas make up a lame excuse so they can have some entertainment. 3. XXI. So the cheat code to every character? This is down right stupid. Akira Toriyama 2.0 has arrived. This thread shouldnt be called "Opinions on U16 Bra" it should be called Do you hate Vargas because they contribute to characters we hate like Bra. I don't really have any strong opinions on the Vargas. I don't mind the format of their tournament. It different from the old World Tournament rules by allowing weapons and items to be used. As a fan of Yu Yu Hakusho and Naruto I'm more used to more chaotic tournaments and battles that use weapons and variety of techniques that have other people do fighting for them. I can understand the weapons since there are weapons tournaments in real life but thats about as chaotic as it gets.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 3, 2016 11:28:22 GMT
It is a tournament. Even if they are holograms he is not the one fighting which simply defeats the point of a tournament (To show who is the strongest fighter). This doesn't have any bearing on his character. Would an evil emperor who controls thugs and uses them to fight for him be inherently bad? Are you one of those that share this "strong character = good written character" idea? It does. If you are not a fighter don't join the tournament. This is not a battle it is a match senzu beans,holograms, remote controls,teleporting your opponent out of the ring should not be alllowed.They are doing this for entertainment. I do not believe a strong character is a good character. I dislike Black Goku Super 17 and Golden Frieza.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 3, 2016 11:37:54 GMT
It is a tournament. Even if they are holograms he is not the one fighting which simply defeats the point of a tournament (To show who is the strongest fighter). But they're allowed to use any means and he has a machine with anger ghosts, Tapion has a demon, Gotanks is two different people, XXI can force people out of view. There's no rules saying that THEY THEMSELVES must be fighting only that they're present in the ring to start the match. Plus you have a tournament full of fighters who mostly want a challenge or are trying to push themselves and restricting it to just ki blasts and hand to hand fights instead of ANYTHING happening would be so freaking boring. I forgot about Tapion and this is why i dislike the Vargas this is not a tournament. Fighting by any means? Are they fighting Majin Buu? Lmfao!!! The tournament rules are clearly stupid and must be fixed. Bra is gonna spam them senzus. XXI will use cheat code on Buu which will be some type of Plot Lower Regeneration which will kill buu for illogical reason. Raichi? He really needs to disqualified for his actions no matter how you look at it,it is cheating.
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Post by fooshin on Oct 3, 2016 13:59:39 GMT
But they're allowed to use any means and he has a machine with anger ghosts, Tapion has a demon, Gotanks is two different people, XXI can force people out of view. There's no rules saying that THEY THEMSELVES must be fighting only that they're present in the ring to start the match. Plus you have a tournament full of fighters who mostly want a challenge or are trying to push themselves and restricting it to just ki blasts and hand to hand fights instead of ANYTHING happening would be so freaking boring. I forgot about Tapion and this is why i dislike the Vargas this is not a tournament. Fighting by any means? Are they fighting Majin Buu? Lmfao!!! The tournament rules are clearly stupid and must be fixed. Bra is gonna spam them senzus. XXI will use cheat code on Buu which will be some type of Plot Lower Regeneration which will kill buu for illogical reason. Raichi? He really needs to disqualified for his actions no matter how you look at it,it is cheating. This is a bit like the boxing purist who thinks kickboxing is cheating or the kickboxing purist that thinks MMA is cheating. I noticed there wasn't a mention about u19. Do guns and sheilds count as bullshit cheating? This isn't a heavily regulated arm wrestling tournament and it was never presented to be that way.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 3, 2016 15:06:43 GMT
I forgot about Tapion and this is why i dislike the Vargas this is not a tournament. Fighting by any means? Are they fighting Majin Buu? Lmfao!!! The tournament rules are clearly stupid and must be fixed. Bra is gonna spam them senzus. XXI will use cheat code on Buu which will be some type of Plot Lower Regeneration which will kill buu for illogical reason. Raichi? He really needs to disqualified for his actions no matter how you look at it,it is cheating. This is a bit like the boxing purist who thinks kickboxing is cheating or the kickboxing purist that thinks MMA is cheating. I noticed there wasn't a mention about u19. Do guns and sheilds count as bullshit cheating? This isn't a heavily regulated arm wrestling tournament and it was never presented to be that way. If you read one of my earlier comments i have said weapons can be allowed since these are very powerful warriors and weapons depend on the user. If yajirobe fought Vegito you think he can land a hit with his sword. His chances are less than 0.00000000008%
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2016 16:40:08 GMT
This doesn't have any bearing on his character. Would an evil emperor who controls thugs and uses them to fight for him be inherently bad? Are you one of those that share this "strong character = good written character" idea? It does. If you are not a fighter don't join the tournament. This is not a battle it is a match senzu beans,holograms, remote controls,teleporting your opponent out of the ring should not be alllowed.They are doing this for entertainment. I do not believe a strong character is a good character. I dislike Black Goku Super 17 and Golden Frieza. It does not unless you are a tard that believes a character with only muscles, punches and obliterating KI blasts is the only good one. Perhaps we should have new Broly's instead of these characters with abilities besides fighting, ambitions, interactions and own background histories?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2016 16:42:21 GMT
But they're allowed to use any means and he has a machine with anger ghosts, Tapion has a demon, Gotanks is two different people, XXI can force people out of view. There's no rules saying that THEY THEMSELVES must be fighting only that they're present in the ring to start the match. Plus you have a tournament full of fighters who mostly want a challenge or are trying to push themselves and restricting it to just ki blasts and hand to hand fights instead of ANYTHING happening would be so freaking boring. I forgot about Tapion and this is why i dislike the Vargas this is not a tournament. Fighting by any means? Are they fighting Majin Buu? Lmfao!!! The tournament rules are clearly stupid and must be fixed. Bra is gonna spam them senzus. XXI will use cheat code on Buu which will be some type of Plot Lower Regeneration which will kill buu for illogical reason. Raichi? He really needs to disqualified for his actions no matter how you look at it,it is cheating. They are indeed "fighting Majin Buu". There are 2 Majin Buus in the 'tournament' in case you forgot. One of them trying to swallow the whole arena in fact. Saying that Raichi has to be disqualified is as stupid as saying Tien should have been disqualified from earlier DB tournaments for using his multiform technique. Also, this might come across as a shocker to you, but Raichi is definitely is on the top 3 favorite characters of the community along with Zen Buu and Gast.
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Post by ltsarge on Oct 3, 2016 17:00:10 GMT
While this thread is derailed and talking about Raichi, I'll just add my two cents.
I don't care for Raichi much as a character, he seems pretty one note (Must kill saiyans 4 revenge), and does not get his hands dirty during a fight, so we don't get much interaction from him really, just his fighters.
Instead I like what Raichi brings to the table, having so many different fighters at his disposal that he can utilize in a fight at any time. The Vegeta vs Raichi fight was one of my favorites, not because Raichi himself as a character was interesting. It was all the different fighters that were being thrown at the powerful U13 Vegeta, and also the tactics that came on display once they started working together. Raichi's awesomeness comes from the U3 ghost saiyans working together to stop Hildegaurn's rampage, or the ghost Pan and Tildar tag team to strike Vegeta, with a Cell Jr to follow up.
Raichi himself is just an old fart on a statue.
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 3, 2016 17:03:39 GMT
But they're allowed to use any means and he has a machine with anger ghosts, Tapion has a demon, Gotanks is two different people, XXI can force people out of view. There's no rules saying that THEY THEMSELVES must be fighting only that they're present in the ring to start the match. Plus you have a tournament full of fighters who mostly want a challenge or are trying to push themselves and restricting it to just ki blasts and hand to hand fights instead of ANYTHING happening would be so freaking boring. I forgot about Tapion and this is why i dislike the Vargas this is not a tournament. Fighting by any means? Are they fighting Majin Buu? Lmfao!!! The tournament rules are clearly stupid and must be fixed. Bra is gonna spam them senzus. XXI will use cheat code on Buu which will be some type of Plot Lower Regeneration which will kill buu for illogical reason. Raichi? He really needs to disqualified for his actions no matter how you look at it,it is cheating. No it's only cheating to you, are you saying the tournament should only be Goku and Vegeta? This is a anything goes tournament no one is getting kicked.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2016 17:11:40 GMT
While this thread is derailed and talking about Raichi, I'll just add my two cents. I don't care for Raichi much as a character, he seems pretty one note (Must kill saiyans 4 revenge), and does not get his hands dirty during a fight, so we don't get much interaction from him really, just his fighters. Instead I like what Raichi brings to the table, having so many different fighters at his disposal that he can utilize in a fight at any time. The Vegeta vs Raichi fight was one of my favorites, not because Raichi himself as a character was interesting. It was all the different fighters that were being thrown at the powerful U13 Vegeta, and also the tactics that came on display once they started working together. Raichi's awesomeness comes from the U3 ghost saiyans working together to stop Hildegaurn's rampage, or the ghost Pan and Tildar tag team to strike Vegeta, with a Cell Jr to follow up. Raichi himself is just an old fart on a statue.You may be overlooking a few things: -He's a truly morally gray character: Although hailed as a hero by his galaxy, he openly refuses the title. -Although you can consider him evil: He helped Tapion out of good will and nothing in exchange, when he could have just murdered him and Hildy -What you refer as "one note" in turn puts him in a stark contrast with another character (which he will fight just next): Gast. Both lost their respective races, but one got consumed by revenge and the other not. -The ability of creating "copies" of dead people is just nightmare fuel. Not to mention the original Raichi only appeared during 70 seconds on the videos of a very obscure videogame, having no more than 6 lines in the whole movie. DBM Raichi is certainly more developed as a character than the original one, to the point of him almost being an OP of Salagir if not for the design and base concept of how he works. I don't want to derail the thread more, but if you are still interested in the topic, you may find the general "Universe 3 thread". We pointed out many of his characters pro's and con's there.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 3, 2016 18:41:45 GMT
It does. If you are not a fighter don't join the tournament. This is not a battle it is a match senzu beans,holograms, remote controls,teleporting your opponent out of the ring should not be alllowed. They are doing this for entertainment. I think entertainment is the reason behind the rules. In a normal tournament setting, there are rules about where you can hit and how hard (Videl was about to be disqualified for killing Spopovich), and you can only use your own body. Fights can still be exciting with these restrictions, but the combat isn't completely realistic, i.e. what would happen on a battlefield. People fight differently when they can use weapons. People fight differently when it's to the death, too. (This is probably why the Romans liked gladiators so much.) The Vargas' tournament has been set up to try and match real combat as close as possible. In a real fight, U19 would use their armor and weapons; so, in the tournament, they can use their armor and weapons. Raichi would use his ghosts, so they're allowed. The only restriction the Vargas really have is that combat has to be 1 on 1. Raichi isn't a disqualification because his ghosts couldn't work without him, so kill Raichi and you win; Tapion isn't a disqualification because Hildegarn would die if he did. On the subject of "cheese" moves like what XXI uses: "In a real fight," XXI would've had enough time to do whatever he wanted. He'd gotten Vegito out of the way; Vegito couldn't stop him. The warp and the remote are functionally similar to what Yamcha was about to do to 18: a pin. This is why a really like XXI as a character; he's the ultimate pragmatist. Speaking of which, this is why (segway back on-topic) I don't mind Bra using senzu beans. In a real fight, there wouldn't have been anything preventing her from using them. They weren't specifically forbidden by the tournament, either. Bra using senzu beans and not offering some to Cold is just showing what kind of person she really is: she ultimately doesn't care about honor, pride, or style--just winning. She's been written to be an unlikable jerk, and I'm okay with that.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2016 18:48:17 GMT
Speaking of which, this is why (segway back on-topic) I don't mind Bra using senzu beans. In a real fight, there wouldn't have been anything preventing her from using them. They weren't specifically forbidden by the tournament, either. Bra using senzu beans and not offering some to Cold is just showing what kind of person she really is: she ultimately doesn't care about honor, pride, or style--just winning. She's been written to be an unlikable jerk, and I'm okay with that. I took issue with the senzu beans due to it despite being the cheapest copout, it still managed to feel the most anti-natural possible. I still think this abides by the rule, but the whole escalation of the fight went from very good and potentially interesting to an slight wrong, after another, every one cumulating more of it. For starter it was odd to bring senzus to a combatant which you consider an insect (exampled by the words Bra said to him before the fight). Bra in base form could have totally beaten 4th form Cold. She didn't know Cold would have whipped 2 new forms out of his ass and the risk that posed. Bra could still have beaten Cold with that Turkish flag technique which sliced him. The beaten up Bra could have just insta-transmitted in front of him and done it in even closer quarters. Also, no need for after image gum bullshit in this case.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2016 19:30:41 GMT
I took issue with the senzu beans due to it despite being the cheapest copout, it still managed to feel the most anti-natural possible. I still think this abides by the rule, but the whole escalation of the fight went from very good and potentially interesting to an slight wrong, after another, every one cumulating more of it. For starter it was odd to bring senzus to a combatant which you consider an insect (exampled by the words Bra said to him before the fight). Bra in base form could have totally beaten 4th form Cold. She didn't know Cold would have whipped 2 new forms out of his ass and the risk that posed. Bra could still have beaten Cold with that Turkish flag technique which sliced him. The beaten up Bra could have just insta-transmitted in front of him and done it in even closer quarters. My main issue with this was not only did she consider Cold to be "an insect" but basically everyone else who isn't Vegito. She prepared Senzu Beans to fight him then? Probably not. Even with her Senzus she probably couldn't beat him. So why would she bring them if she didn't think she'd need them? That's what I'm stuck on. Seems like it was far too convenient for the situation to me, I don't know.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 3, 2016 20:18:34 GMT
I took issue with the senzu beans due to it despite being the cheapest copout, it still managed to feel the most anti-natural possible. I still think this abides by the rule, but the whole escalation of the fight went from very good and potentially interesting to an slight wrong, after another, every one cumulating more of it. For starter it was odd to bring senzus to a combatant which you consider an insect (exampled by the words Bra said to him before the fight). Bra in base form could have totally beaten 4th form Cold. She didn't know Cold would have whipped 2 new forms out of his ass and the risk that posed. Bra could still have beaten Cold with that Turkish flag technique which sliced him. The beaten up Bra could have just insta-transmitted in front of him and done it in even closer quarters. You may disagree, but I don't think Bra could've won from the get-go using her energy sword/Instant Movement/gravity-goo combo. Even a tired Cold was fast enough to (mostly) dodge two sword-hits and counterattack, so the combo only worked because Bra was at full strength and Cold wasn't. Perhaps Salagir didn't intend for people to see it this way, but I think if she'd tried that at the start, Cold would've broken free. I agree that Bra had expected to only fight 4th-form Cold (maybe 5th at best) and so she hadn't gotten the senzu beans for him. The beans were more of a general back-up plan Bra always had on her and which she happened to need for Cold. Using them is totally in-character for Bra, since she doesn't care about honor. I also agree that the whole situation could've been foreshadowed better and executed more smoothly. But to me, the problem with the fight was not the beans, or even the Turkish Flag (lol) or the gravity-goo: it was how these things changed the nature of the fight. When Bra says she was only using basic techniques the entire time, it changes things from "Bra was reacting to what Cold did" to "Bra had this situation under control the entire time"...which isn't what we saw. If Bra knew from the start she could beat Cold any time she wanted, even with his 6th form, then she shouldn't have been afraid of him--but she was. If Bra knew the only way she could beat Cold was by tiring him out first, then she wouldn't have rushed in or tried the spirally blasts--but she did. I don't mind Bra having beans as a backup plan, suddenly having the sword/gravity goo, or even the idea that Bra might've been holding back for a reason. What bothers me is that we, the readers, were set up to believe one thing, only to be told that wasn't really what was going on at all. I wish it'd been clear from the get-go that Bra was trying to tire Cold out, so that when she whips out the combo we could go "Ohhh, she was waiting for that on purpose." What we got was Bra underestimating Cold multiple times and then the story saying, "Oh actually, she wasn't."
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 3, 2016 20:23:34 GMT
Totally agree with the above. It was the whole sequence of things and their placements that made it feel so wrong.
Bra basically made a statement by allowing Cold to bend the rules: she basically outright stated "I can beat you even when the rules are stacked against my favor". So, using senzu beans, while well within the rules, basically completely negates and contradicts the previous statement she made.
"I can beat you with ma pinky finger even when you have the rules to your advantage" at the end was merely pure hot air. A sentence that was only a lot of shaft, but zero balls to support it.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 3, 2016 20:24:20 GMT
Off topic: I created a new thread to discuss the tournament format, so we could move the discussion there with derailing this thread.
On topic: I don't mind that Bra is a hypocrite (since she has called magicians and tech warriors cowards for using dirty tactics), but I wish it was acknowledged by the other characters. There in lies the problem I think most of us have with U16 Bra none of her flaws or shortcomings are really acknowledged by the characters and she continues on being who she is. It's like if Vegeta kept being an asshole, but all the characters just loved him despite him treating them like shit.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 3, 2016 23:33:58 GMT
It does. If you are not a fighter don't join the tournament. This is not a battle it is a match senzu beans,holograms, remote controls,teleporting your opponent out of the ring should not be alllowed.They are doing this for entertainment. I do not believe a strong character is a good character. I dislike Black Goku Super 17 and Golden Frieza. It does not unless you are a tard that believes a character with only muscles, punches and obliterating KI blasts is the only good one. Perhaps we should have new Broly's instead of these characters with abilities besides fighting, ambitions, interactions and own background histories? A tard? Listen up. 1. I like Beerus, Whis, Hit, Cooler,Cell, and Gogeta. Are they tanked like Broly? 2. We need new tournament people because Vargas don't make the cut.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 4, 2016 1:21:11 GMT
It does not unless you are a tard that believes a character with only muscles, punches and obliterating KI blasts is the only good one. Perhaps we should have new Broly's instead of these characters with abilities besides fighting, ambitions, interactions and own background histories? A tard? Listen up. 1. I like Beerus, Whis, Hit, Cooler,Cell, and Gogeta. Are they tanked like Broly? 2. We need new tournament people because Vargas don't make the cut. 1 - Lamentably for you, Beerus, Whiss, Hit and Gogeta (thus far) do not exist in this tournament. Cell has an unfair advantage which is regeneration, and let's remember: anyone who doesn't fight only using brute strengt was shit for you, no? 2 - Nah, I don't think so. We really don't, especially not NOW after 1000 pages have passed. Perhaps you need to only watch DBS instead.
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