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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2016 18:53:33 GMT
When looking at just her character, U16 Bra's fine. A lot of people don't seem realize that she's not the same as U18 Bra; she's the daughter of Vegetto, so it makes sense for her to be so strong and have crazy potential. People also complain about her being arrogant and cocky, but plenty of characters are like that in this series. Vegeta acted like an arrogant jackass throughout DBZ and not many people complained, but when Bra acts like one, there's a problem? Please. I will admit that her fight with Cold is terribly written, though; her having Senzus was such an asspull. The problem with Bra is that she's a fan-character, and like all of Salagir's fan-characters that are competing in the tournament, they're unnecessary to Multiverse. The main appeal of Multiverse was to just see the characters that had already existed in Dragon Ball fight each other. To see the hypothetical fights that are constantly debated in the fanbase. Nobody wanted to see fan-characters. The difference between this (why it's a problem with Bra but not Vegeta) has been explained multiple times by various different people.
In short, the general consensus is it's not likable, so when characters do this, that is, act like an arrogant jackass, you want them to fail. Vegeta had this happen many times over the course of DBZ (I can list examples of this if you'd like). Bra has not had this happen once yet, and usually gets off scot-free. (Again, I can list a few examples of what I mean if you want me to)
I mean, as far as her essentially being a fan character (she shares the same name and mother as Bra from U18, similarities end there however, so to me at least, she is a fan character. I guess this can be argued though since she is meant as a counterpart to U18.) yeah, people wanted to see alternate realities in which certain, canon or non-canon, villains won or where victory was attained differently. We got this for the most part with King Piccolo and Vegito for example, but unfortunately that spawned different, fan made characters as well, which was incredibly unnecessary to do, especially when these spots could have been given to different characters. Don't get me wrong though, it's nice that Salagir was creative and made characters such as XXI, the pregnant woman, the girls from Bojack's universe, Bra, etc., but it wasn't what people were expecting.
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Post by scottyrogers on Oct 30, 2016 19:35:33 GMT
When looking at just her character, U16 Bra's fine. A lot of people don't seem realize that she's not the same as U18 Bra; she's the daughter of Vegetto, so it makes sense for her to be so strong and have crazy potential. People also complain about her being arrogant and cocky, but plenty of characters are like that in this series. Vegeta acted like an arrogant jackass throughout DBZ and not many people complained, but when Bra acts like one, there's a problem? Please. I will admit that her fight with Cold is terribly written, though; her having Senzus was such an asspull. The problem with Bra is that she's a fan-character, and like all of Salagir's fan-characters that are competing in the tournament, they're unnecessary to Multiverse. The main appeal of Multiverse was to just see the characters that had already existed in Dragon Ball fight each other. To see the hypothetical fights that are constantly debated in the fanbase. Nobody wanted to see fan-characters. The difference between this (why it's a problem with Bra but not Vegeta) has been explained multiple times by various different people.
In short, the general consensus is it's not likable, so when characters do this, that is, act like an arrogant jackass, you want them to fail. Vegeta had this happen many times over the course of DBZ (I can list examples of this if you'd like). Bra has not had this happen once yet, and usually gets off scot-free. (Again, I can list a few examples of what I mean if you want me to)Fair enough. Yeah, Bra's arrogance should have consequences so she'd be humbled.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 30, 2016 20:19:57 GMT
When looking at just her character, U16 Bra's fine. A lot of people don't seem realize that she's not the same as U18 Bra; she's the daughter of Vegetto, so it makes sense for her to be so strong and have crazy potential. People also complain about her being arrogant and cocky, but plenty of characters are like that in this series. Vegeta acted like an arrogant jackass throughout DBZ and not many people complained, but when Bra acts like one, there's a problem? Please. I will admit that her fight with Cold is terribly written, though; her having Senzus was such an asspull. The problem with Bra is that she's a fan-character, and like all of Salagir's fan-characters that are competing in the tournament, they're unnecessary to Multiverse. The main appeal of Multiverse was to just see the characters that had already existed in Dragon Ball fight each other. To see the hypothetical fights that are constantly debated in the fanbase. Nobody wanted to see fan-characters. The difference between this (why it's a problem with Bra but not Vegeta) has been explained multiple times by various different people.
In short, the general consensus is it's not likable, so when characters do this, that is, act like an arrogant jackass, you want them to fail. Vegeta had this happen many times over the course of DBZ (I can list examples of this if you'd like). Bra has not had this happen once yet, and usually gets off scot-free. (Again, I can list a few examples of what I mean if you want me to)
I mean, as far as her essentially being a fan character (she shares the same name and mother as Bra from U18, similarities end there however, so to me at least, she is a fan character. I guess this can be argued though since she is meant as a counterpart to U18.) yeah, people wanted to see alternate realities in which certain, canon or non-canon, villains won or where victory was attained differently. We got this for the most part with King Piccolo and Vegito for example, but unfortunately that spawned different, fan made characters as well, which was incredibly unnecessary to do, especially when these spots could have been given to different characters. Don't get me wrong though, it's nice that Salagir was creative and made characters such as XXI, the pregnant woman, the girls from Bojack's universe, Bra, etc., but it wasn't what people were expecting. Just to add to this not everyone likes Vegeta. He is a fan favorite, but I've seen people both in and out of DBM community express dislike for the character for similar reasons to Bra, arrogant, an asshole to everyone, including his own son for much of the Android/Cell arc, for letting Buu hatch to satisfy his own pride and ego, etc. It is not as simple as people like Vegeta for being an arrogant asshole and dislike Bra for being an arrogant asshole. With Vegeta we got gradual development. He is unrecognizable if you compare his character in the Saiyan arc to his character in Buu arc. Bra however, hasn't grown in the slightest as a character in addition to never facing consequences of her mistakes or bad judgement.
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Post by Drakthul on Oct 30, 2016 20:43:41 GMT
Yea.
When Vegeta has bad judgement, he gets his shit pushed in.
When Bra has bad judgement... uhh... Well, yea. It's not really there.
Vegeta's arrogance got him killed by Frieza.
Humiliated by Cell.
And then killed again by Buu.
But he grows throughout that, from being a selfish prick, to being a man that despite his flaws, sacrifices himself for his family.
Bra won't have that moment, and can't, because her evolution will never feel organic.
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Post by mbg on Oct 31, 2016 21:02:39 GMT
Let's crack open a big ol' book with a heavily weathered spine named "Writing 101," and open it up to a big section reading "How To Write A Character." And here's one of the biggest lessons to take from it: you don't have to make a character likeable to make the audience care about them.
Now, this sounds like an oxymoron. How can the audience like a character if they're not likeable? Well, that's the thing: it's not really about making a character, personally, a decent person. If that were the case, we wouldn't be seeing so many works, especially in the modern day, about characters - even protagonists - who are completely horrible. This is because the true driving force isn't likeability; it's relatability.
So what is relatability, then? Well, in the simplest form, relatability refers to the audience's ability to put themselves in the character's shoes. It is what happens when the audience looks at a character, and thinks back to all the things that have happened to them, all the things they've learned from, and understands them. And when that character does something, the audience realizes that if they were in that character's position, they'd do the exact same thing.
So let's take three examples to see how this goes down.
Walter White, of Breaking Bad, does not do many good things over the course of the series. He kills people. He cooks meth. He descends into becoming a brutal crimelord. But the audience's sympathy still lies with him - why is that? Well, it's because White's slide into cold-blooded murder is motivated. He wants to provide for his family, and he is going to die in a few years. When he starts out, he only wants to ensure that his family will be well-off when he dies. And when he has completely lost it, what else is he supposed to do? Turn himself in, and die in prison and have all his efforts be for naught? Let himself die, and risk his family being killed by his rivals? He is a monster, but he is a monster for a reason. He isn't doing what he does because he just wants money or power. Anyone can relate to a man who wants to protect his family, who's been pushed into a corner and grabbing any opportunity he can. Walter White is not a good person, but the audience can understand him, and therefore, care for him.
On the other end of the scale, we have Lord Voldemort. Voldemort is not intended to be relatable; he is, more or less, Snake-Faced Wizard Hitler, and the story wants you to want him dead. For most of the series, he's a distant, mad archvillain, but when we are finally given his backstory, it is not a story of a man being pressured by circumstance. As a boy, Voldemort grew up in an orphanage with special powers - which he used to bully, steal from, and traumatize the other children. When he finally tracked down his estranged family, he murdered his father and grandparents, framed his uncle for it, and stole the family ring for good measure. When he heard of a horrible magical ritual that required acts of soul-rending evil, his first question was "Okay, but has anyone done it six times? That's a good number." Rowling writes Voldemort as a man who has continually been given a choice, and has continually taken the worst possible one. Voldemort has no good reason for what he does, and that makes him impossible to understand and therefore impossible to want to live.
These are two successful examples of how to manipulate relatability - but let's talk about a case where it fails.
The musical Love Never Dies, notoriously, promised to show the future adventures of the character of the Phantom of the Opera. The Phantom, like White, is a key example of a character who is a bad person but a relatable character. The Phantom was horribly disfigured, never provided love, and treated with disgust despite his clear talents. Given his generally horrible position, it's therefore easy to understand it when the guy starts going love-crazy and kidnapping women and murdering people. But in Love Never Dies, there is no such thing. He has tons of money, friends, coworkers, public love, and a son that he didn't even need to raise... and he's still going love-crazy, kidnapping women, and murdering people. The audience understood the Phantom because they understood that there was no other option for the guy, but in Love Never Dies, the Phantom is constantly being given the opportunity to get over himself and stop being such a prick and he ignores it. The audience cannot connect with him, because they're constantly thinking "Dude, stop being such a prick."
So where does Dragonball fit into this? Well, let's think about Vegeta.
Vegeta was a man who lost everyone he knew and loved, and forced to work for a man who was essentially a god. He was powerful, true, but he lived in a society where every single battle came down to numbers. Every time he turned on his scouter, he saw for himself just how horribly a rebellion would go for him. He went to Earth to find the Dragonballs because he wanted to increase his own standing, if only a little - that's relatable.
Then he gets his ass handed to him, and sees for himself that the numbers on the scouter don't determine everything. He reinvents himself. He learns to sense energy. He goes from firing Galick Guns everywhere to sneaking around and being tactical, taking down only the people he knows he can beat. His motivation has shifted from ambition to revenge, and the audience understands this: if they were in Vegeta's position, they'd want to kill their boss too. And when he starts ranting about becoming the Super Saiyan, that, too, is relatable, because he has been led to it logically.
His relationship with Goku, which drives the Android Saga, is also one that makes sense. Vegeta completely failed to get his revenge and fight back against his boss - of all people, the low-class dunce got the Super Saiyan transformation. His pride is badly wounded. That makes sense, and his drive to prove himself better also makes sense. Again, Vegeta is a man who has been told that power is everything and the world is his birthright, and now that belief is being challenged - of course he's going to fight back. And when he finally surpasses Goku and fights Semi-Perfect Cell, he lords it over the guy as much as he can... but then he gets carried away, and this is the point where you're not supposed to relate to him. He fucked up, and the story knows he fucked up, and he suffers majorly for fucking up. And he realizes he's fucked up. He understands for the first time just how much he loves his weird future son, and he starts to fight for him.
I could go on. The point is, Vegeta is a guy who is motivated, and you can see why he's motivated. And because of that, it's easy to get invested in Vegeta's arc, because when you look at Vegeta, you can see yourself doing a lot of the same things. We've been led through every step of his character growth, so it makes sense to us. And even though he feels big passionate emotions, he lives a big passionate life. He isn't a good person - not until Buu, anyway. But he is relatable.
"Okay, mbg. But where does Bra fit into this?"
Well, what's Bra's motivation? To get stronger, I suppose. But why does that matter? Do the people around her like to lord their strength over her? No, they're pretty chill about it, and encourage her constantly. Is she weaker than expected? No, she's incredibly powerful, she's just mildly behind the fusion of two Super Saiyans who can only exist for about five seconds, an empowered magical warrior who's been fighting for decades, and the divinely-merged result of two of the greatest fighters ever. And even that's arguable. Is there some kind of threat she's training to face? No, her universe is basically peaceful, and she doesn't seem that interested in protecting it either way. Does she just like fighting because she's a Saiyan and she holds to that honor code? Well, not really, if the King Cold fight is any indication.
So what does Bra want, then? Well, she wants to avenge her niece, but that gets resolved really quickly. She wants to control her Super Saiyan 2 form, but she has never been shown making inroads into doing so. It'd be easy to just show her Transmissioning into space and trying to master the form away from everyone else, but she hasn't done that. I guess you could say she wants to control her temper, but that's more what Gohan wants than anything, and even then, he's never been particularly hardline about it.
So if Bra doesn't really need anything and doesn't really want anything, then why does she do what she does? And more pointedly, why should I care? I can't relate to Bra on any level, because were I in her situation, I would be doing anything but what she does. She's been surrounded by kind, loving, and encouraging people and been rude and sour to them. She's been given superlative power through little effort of her own and whined about not being stronger than Gotenks. She's been given the choice between an honorable fight and saving a universe and promptly chose the former and cheesed her way through it. She's been handed the world on a silver platter and complained it wasn't quite tasty enough. Yet the story demands me to do so - it begs me to root for the character and be wowed by her. But I don't, and I'm not. Bra is a brick and a cipher and I see nothing in her.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 31, 2016 22:02:21 GMT
"Okay, mbg. But where does Bra fit into this?" Well, what's Bra's motivation? To get stronger, I suppose. But why does that matter? Do the people around her like to lord their strength over her? No, they're pretty chill about it, and encourage her constantly. Is she weaker than expected? No, she's incredibly powerful, she's just mildly behind the fusion of two Super Saiyans who can only exist for about five seconds, an empowered magical warrior who's been fighting for decades, and the divinely-merged result of two of the greatest fighters ever. And even that's arguable. Is there some kind of threat she's training to face? No, her universe is basically peaceful, and she doesn't seem that interested in protecting it either way. Does she just like fighting because she's a Saiyan and she holds to that honor code? Well, not really, if the King Cold fight is any indication. So what does Bra want, then? Well, she wants to avenge her niece, but that gets resolved really quickly. She wants to control her Super Saiyan 2 form, but she has never been shown making inroads into doing so. It'd be easy to just show her Transmissioning into space and trying to master the form away from everyone else, but she hasn't done that. I guess you could say she wants to control her temper, but that's more what Gohan wants than anything, and even then, he's never been particularly hardline about it. So if Bra doesn't really need anything and doesn't really want anything, then why does she do what she does? And more pointedly, why should I care? I can't relate to Bra on any level, because were I in her situation, I would be doing anything but what she does. She's been surrounded by kind, loving, and encouraging people and been rude and sour to them. She's been given superlative power through little effort of her own and whined about not being stronger than Gotenks. She's been given the choice between an honorable fight and saving a universe and promptly chose the former and cheesed her way through it. She's been handed the world on a silver platter and complained it wasn't quite tasty enough. Yet the story demands me to do so - it begs me to root for the character and be wowed by her. But I don't, and I'm not. Bra is a brick and a cipher and I see nothing in her. So, the question I have for you is: what could be done to fix Bra? I think there are a few things in her story that could make her relatable. These haven't necessarily been brought up in-story, but the groundwork is there. Idea 1 (two paragraphs): -- I'm of the opinion that Bra's life is one of frustration. Her father is Vegito, by far and away the strongest person in the universe, and Vegito has raised her to be his rival. She's got the genes to like fighting. She's gotten trained out the wazoo. She has the mindset that strength = all. However, here's the problem: she cannot be Vegito's rival. Even at her best--at Super Saiyan 2, where she's so unstable she starts hurting people and destroying things--she can't even force him past Super Saiyan 1, and he can go to Super Saiyan 3. She will never be anywhere close to her dad. Which means her life, her existence, is pointless. There will never be a moment where she is relevant. Unlike Gohan, she can't be content not being a fighter, yet if Vegito's actually put to the test, she's useless.
So, remedy #1: Don't show Bra fighting Gohan; show her fighting Vegito. And have her get owned. Let's see Vegito toy with Super Saiyan Bra while he's in base. Let's see her use all her fancy tricks on him, and he snores his way through it. Show just how inconsequential she is. With Vegeta, we can't help but empathize when he gets so easily and quickly surpassed by Goku during the Cell and Buu arcs. Do the same with Bra. Idea 2 (one paragraph): -- Show how disliked Bra actually is. The closest we got to this was Vegito abandoning her in the HTC. Show that she's not really worth his attention. Show that Bulma doesn't know what to do with her--maybe have Bulma talk to Chi-Chi about how worrisome Bra's behavior is. Show that Goten and Trunks don't really enjoy her company. Show Videl being worried about how Pan is afraid of being ridiculed by Bra. Show that people tolerate Bra, but they don't really like her, and they don't even really trust her. Show that Bra is often by herself and pretty unhappy about it--she's just too proud to admit it, and doesn't know how to fix it. That would make her a bit more relatable; almost everyone has felt left out at some point in their life. Idea 3 (one paragraph): --Have Bra actually interact with people outside her universe. Quite honestly, Bra has only really talked to four people not in U16, and they're all people she's fought: U4 Buu, Zangya, Eleim, Cold. I don't know about the novelization, but other than a brief (and doubtably canon) interaction with U18 Bra on a chapter cover, she hasn't had a friendly interaction with anyone. Have her talk to U18 Gohan, Videl, or Pan. Have her talk to Gast pre-match. Have her actually talk to the Heliotes she's fighting for. Have her talk to U12 Trunks, or U9, or whatever. Show that she can be friendly with strangers. Show that she's a human being. That'll make her a lot more relatable. Idea 4 (four points): I don't think Bra will learn anything from a fight. If she loses, it will reinforce her believe of fighting prowess = worth. So, what to do? 1. Have her get swapped with Ginyu. It doesn't even have to be Cold. Bra has been blessed with an awful lot of natural power and talent; if that power was taken away from her, and she was stuck in a body with a measly power of 40,000 or something, she would have to find ways to judge herself other than by strength. She would have to value courage in the face of overwhelming, insurmountable odds. Suddenly all those U9 and Heliote guys wouldn't be so pathetic!
2. Have her get taken over by Babidi. Falling under Babidi's control would make her realize that she is flawed, that she put her family in danger because of it, and that she needs to change.
3. Have Vegito go crazy and kill people. Vegito is the strongest of all, and Bra's always looked up to him because of it. If he kills people, Bra will have to make a decision; are Vegito's actions justified, because he's so strong? Or will Bra have to accept that there are things more important than strength, like protecting the innocent and staying in control?
4. Have Gohan die. This could probably be combined with #3. Have Bra realize that the person she actually admired most was the one who didn't like training and fighting. It'll help widen her ideals.
5. Have Bra somehow get outwitted by U18, or get saved by Goku or Vegeta. Have their example teach Bra that Vegito is flawed. Bra's a bit too deeply involved in the story to get written out yet. So those are my thoughts on what might help fix the problem. Yours?
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Post by Drakthul on Oct 31, 2016 22:04:41 GMT
"Okay, mbg. But where does Bra fit into this?" Well, what's Bra's motivation? To get stronger, I suppose. But why does that matter? Do the people around her like to lord their strength over her? No, they're pretty chill about it, and encourage her constantly. Is she weaker than expected? No, she's incredibly powerful, she's just mildly behind the fusion of two Super Saiyans who can only exist for about five seconds, an empowered magical warrior who's been fighting for decades, and the divinely-merged result of two of the greatest fighters ever. And even that's arguable. Is there some kind of threat she's training to face? No, her universe is basically peaceful, and she doesn't seem that interested in protecting it either way. Does she just like fighting because she's a Saiyan and she holds to that honor code? Well, not really, if the King Cold fight is any indication. So what does Bra want, then? Well, she wants to avenge her niece, but that gets resolved really quickly. She wants to control her Super Saiyan 2 form, but she has never been shown making inroads into doing so. It'd be easy to just show her Transmissioning into space and trying to master the form away from everyone else, but she hasn't done that. I guess you could say she wants to control her temper, but that's more what Gohan wants than anything, and even then, he's never been particularly hardline about it. So if Bra doesn't really need anything and doesn't really want anything, then why does she do what she does? And more pointedly, why should I care? I can't relate to Bra on any level, because were I in her situation, I would be doing anything but what she does. She's been surrounded by kind, loving, and encouraging people and been rude and sour to them. She's been given superlative power through little effort of her own and whined about not being stronger than Gotenks. She's been given the choice between an honorable fight and saving a universe and promptly chose the former and cheesed her way through it. She's been handed the world on a silver platter and complained it wasn't quite tasty enough. Yet the story demands me to do so - it begs me to root for the character and be wowed by her. But I don't, and I'm not. Bra is a brick and a cipher and I see nothing in her. So, the question I have for you is: what could be done to fix Bra? I think there are a few things in her story that could make her relatable. These haven't necessarily been brought up in-story, but the groundwork is there. Idea 1 (two paragraphs): -- I'm of the opinion that Bra's life is one of frustration. Her father is Vegito, by far and away the strongest person in the universe, and Vegito has raised her to be his rival. She's got the genes to like fighting. She's gotten trained out the wazoo. She has the mindset that strength = all. However, here's the problem: she cannot be Vegito's rival. Even at her best--at Super Saiyan 2, where she's so unstable she starts hurting people and destroying things--she can't even force him past Super Saiyan 1, and he can go to Super Saiyan 3. She will never be anywhere close to her dad. Which means her life, her existence, is pointless. There will never be a moment where she is relevant. Unlike Gohan, she can't be content not being a fighter, yet if Vegito's actually put to the test, she's useless.
So, remedy #1: Don't show Bra fighting Gohan; show her fighting Vegito. And have her get owned. Let's see Vegito toy with her at Super Saiyan while he's in base. Let's see her use all her fancy tricks on him, and he snores his way through it. Show just how inconsequential she is. With Vegeta, we can't help but empathize when he gets so easily and quickly surpassed by Goku during the Cell and Buu arcs. Do the same with Bra. Idea 2 (one paragraph): -- Show how disliked Bra actually is. The closest we got to this was Vegito abandoning her in the HTC. Show that she's not really worth his attention. Show that Bulma doesn't know what to do with her--maybe have Bulma talk to Chi-Chi about how worrisome Bra's behavior is. Show that Goten and Trunks don't really enjoy her company. Show Videl being worried about how Pan is afraid of being ridiculed by Bra. Show that people tolerate Bra, but they don't really like her, and they don't even really trust her. Show that Bra is often by herself and pretty unhappy about it--she's just too proud to admit it, and doesn't know how to fix it. Idea 3 (one paragraph): --Have Bra actually interact with people outside her universe. Quite honestly, Bra has only really talked to four people not in U16, and they're all people she's fought: U4 Buu, Zangya, Eleim, Cold. I don't know about the novelization, but other than a brief (and doubtably canon) interaction with U18 Bra on a chapter cover, she hasn't had a friendly interaction with anyone. Have her talk to U18 Gohan, Videl, or Pan. Have her talk to Gast pre-match. Have her actually talk to the Heliotes she's fighting for. Have her talk to U12 Trunks, or U9, or whatever. Show that she can be friendly with strangers. Show that she's a human being. Idea 4 (four points): I don't think Bra will learn anything from a fight. If she loses, it will reinforce her believe of fighting prowess = worth. So, what to do? 1. Have her get swapped with Ginyu. It doesn't even have to be Cold. Bra has been blessed with an awful lot of natural power and talent; if that power was taken away from her, and she was stuck in a body with a measly power of 40,000 or something, she would have to find ways to judge herself other than by strength. She would have to value courage in the face of overwhelming, insurmountable odds. Suddenly all those U9 and Heliote guys wouldn't be so pathetic!
2. Have her get taken over by Babidi. Falling under Babidi's control would make her realize that she is flawed, that she put her family in danger because of it, and that she needs to change.
3. Have Vegito go crazy and kill people. Vegito is the strongest of all, and Bra's always looked up to him because of it. If he kills people, Bra will have to make a decision; are Vegito's actions justified, because he's so strong? Or will Bra have to accept that there are things more important than strength, like protecting the innocent and staying in control?
4. Have Gohan die. This could probably be combined with #3. Have Bra realize that the person she actually admired most was the one who didn't like training and fighting. It'll help widen her ideals.
5. Have Bra somehow get outwitted by U18, or get saved by Goku or Vegeta. Have their example teach Bra that Vegito is flawed. Bra's a bit too deeply involved in the story to get written out yet. So those are my thoughts on what might help fix the problem. Yours? The fixes don't work. Those are things that would have had to have been done years ago, quite literally, to be workable now. The ink is already on the page, and the page is published. I really don't know what he can do going forward to make her work. It's kinda past that point. The ship has sailed, and its heading to port, its too late to change the manifest.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 31, 2016 22:20:06 GMT
The fixes don't work. Those are things that would have had to have been done years ago, quite literally, to be workable now. The ink is already on the page, and the page is published. I really don't know what he can do going forward to make her work. It's kinda past that point. The ship has sailed, and its heading to port, its too late to change the manifest. I must say I'm a bit confused. Not even two minutes after my post of 5-ish paragraphs, I got a response of essentially "Nah, none of those'll work." Why won't they work? You're writing a fanfic of your own, my friend. Let's say Salagir decides to let you take over DBM. What do you do with Bra? Do you suddenly have her get killed so as to get her out of the story as soon as possible? Who kills her? How does she die? Do you have her live long enough to face Gast or Raichi and lose? Do they beat her through strength? Do they mind-rape her into forfeiting? Do you have her get disqualified? How do you keep both characters in-character while this happens? Do you simply ignore Bra until it's time for her next fight? Do you have her get taken over by Babidi and kill people? Do you show her talking to others? Do you have Buu absorb her? Do you have her decide to quit and go home? What angle do you take with Bra? How do you make it clear to people that "Yes, Bra is a jerk, but it's okay, she's meant to be" and not a Mary Sue? How do you make her relatable? Remember, if she gets a heroic death, that's character shilling. If she gets a wimpy death, people might mistake you for trying to make her pitiable and get the audience's sympathy--a Mary Sue trait. If she flat-out disappears from the story, then it needs to be explained and have a justified purpose, or else it's lazy writing and pandering to the fans. Do you have her be a jerk to the end? Does she learn a lesson? How? How do you make the transition beleivable? How do you fend off people who say she's even more of a Mary Sue because she's worked out her flaws? The thing is, the Show Must Go On. Yes, the ship might have sailed, but we can't just pretend Bra never happened. Somehow, there must be a resolution to her part of the story. Some fixes must be attempted. I gave four (kind of seven) ideas on what might help. I'd appreciate some reasons as to why they might work or why they wouldn't. I also wouldn't underestimate the Internet's ability to pivot on its opinions.
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Post by Drakthul on Oct 31, 2016 22:29:18 GMT
The fixes don't work. Those are things that would have had to have been done years ago, quite literally, to be workable now. The ink is already on the page, and the page is published. I really don't know what he can do going forward to make her work. It's kinda past that point. The ship has sailed, and its heading to port, its too late to change the manifest. I must say I'm a bit confused. Not even two minutes after my post of 5-ish paragraphs, I got a response of essentially "Nah, none of those'll work." Why won't they work? You're writing a fanfic of your own, my friend. Let's say Salagir decides to let you take over DBM. What do you do with Bra? Do you suddenly have her get killed so as to get her out of the story as soon as possible? Who kills her? How does she die? Do you have her live long enough to face Gast or Raichi and lose? Do they beat her through strength? Do they mind-rape her into forfeiting? Do you have her get disqualified? How do you keep both characters in-character while this happens? Do you simply ignore Bra until it's time for her next fight? Do you have her get taken over by Babidi and kill people? Do you show her talking to others? Do you have Buu absorb her? Do you have her decide to quit and go home? What angle do you take with Bra? How do you make it clear to people that "Yes, Bra is a jerk, but it's okay, she's meant to be" and not a Mary Sue? How do you make her relatable? Remember, if she gets a heroic death, that's character shilling. If she gets a wimpy death, people might mistake you for trying to make her pitiable and get the audience's sympathy--a Mary Sue trait. If she flat-out disappears from the story, then it needs to be explained and have a justified purpose, or else it's lazy writing and pandering to the fans. Do you have her be a jerk to the end? Does she learn a lesson? How? How do you make the transition beleivable? How do you fend off people who say she's even more of a Mary Sue because she's worked out her flaws? The thing is, the Show Must Go On. Yes, the ship might have sailed, but we can't just pretend Bra never happened. Somehow, there must be a resolution to her part of the story. Some fixes must be attempted. I gave four (kind of seven) ideas on what might help. I also wouldn't underestimate the Internet's ability to pivot on its opinions. The majority of them don't work, because you're talking about rewriting what's already been put on the page. From my perspective, it looked like you wanted him to rewrite scenes, like this: So, remedy #1: Don't show Bra fighting Gohan; show her fighting Vegito. And have her get owned. Let's see Vegito toy with Super Saiyan Bra while he's in base. Let's see her use all her fancy tricks on him, and he snores his way through it. Show just how inconsequential she is. With Vegeta, we can't help but empathize when he gets so easily and quickly surpassed by Goku during the Cell and Buu arcs. Do the same with Bra. We've already seen her fighting Gohan. That's already been established. And given how Vegito's behaved to her so far, if you added that scene instead of replacing it, it would still feel out of place, and feel like a massive U-Turn in the story. Another example: -- Show how disliked Bra actually is. The closest we got to this was Vegito abandoning her in the HTC. Show that she's not really worth his attention. Show that Bulma doesn't know what to do with her--maybe have Bulma talk to Chi-Chi about how worrisome Bra's behavior is. Show that Goten and Trunks don't really enjoy her company. Show Videl being worried about how Pan is afraid of being ridiculed by Bra. Show that people tolerate Bra, but they don't really like her, and they don't even really trust her. Show that Bra is often by herself and pretty unhappy about it--she's just too proud to admit it, and doesn't know how to fix it. That would make her a bit more relatable; almost everyone has felt left out at some point in their life. Again, we've seen her pretty well liked by everyone, despite her being a total bitch to them. This would again be a massive U-turn. you'd need to find something for people to turn on her over, and that would feel just as forced as the forced series of events we've already been under. It'd be pandering to the crowd, rather than pandering to the author. It still wouldn't be organic. --Have Bra actually interact with people outside her universe. Quite honestly, Bra has only really talked to four people not in U16, and they're all people she's fought: U4 Buu, Zangya, Eleim, Cold. I don't know about the novelization, but other than a brief (and doubtably canon) interaction with U18 Bra on a chapter cover, she hasn't had a friendly interaction with anyone. Have her talk to U18 Gohan, Videl, or Pan. Have her talk to Gast pre-match. Have her actually talk to the Heliotes she's fighting for. Have her talk to U12 Trunks, or U9, or whatever. Show that she can be friendly with strangers. Show that she's a human being. That'll make her a lot more relatable. We've seen her somewhat talk to people from other universes, even if only briefly. More contact might work, but given her attitude so far, I fail to see how anyone could realistically like her. Though they will. Because that's just how that would go when Salagir's protecting her. So I fail to see how that's a solution either. And to the final point: I don't think Bra will learn anything from a fight. If she loses, it will reinforce her believe of fighting prowess = worth. So, what to do? I don't think her body is going to get swapped by Ginyu, and I don't think that's a solution. It still falls under the kind of problems she's faced so far. Either she acts out of character, which would be bizarre, or others act even FURTHER out of character than they already are. Its a total quagmire.
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Post by mbg on Nov 1, 2016 0:36:10 GMT
Bra's a bit too deeply involved in the story to get written out yet. So those are my thoughts on what might help fix the problem. Yours? I think any of those ideas would at least alleviate the pressure. My feeling on Bra is that she suffers from something of an identity crisis. The most obvious defense of the character is that she isn't intended to be likeable, but that doesn't jive with Salagir's continued attempts to put the ball in her court. Bra needs to be nailed down, first and foremost, before we can actually talk about what she needs to be. Is Bra a stalwart and consummate hero with a gruff side, as she's intended in her first special and her fight with Cold? Is she a deeply flawed devil on the side of the angels, as she's portrayed in her second special and her fight with Eliem? Is she a pitiable figure, bearing unfathomable power they can barely control, as during the fight with Buu and Zangya? The latter two can work, even when combined, but the first one doesn't jibe with much of anything, and it's boring anyway. So I'd say the second has the most potential. How do Goten and Trunks think about this? Their only relationship has been variants of "Goten and Trunks say something kinda dumb, Bra insults them." It's been played for comedy, but all you'd have to do is have them admit that Bra's constant verbal abuse really isn't funny. We haven't heard what Pan and Videl think of her, either. Most of Idea 4 also makes sense (bar the Ginyuswap, which I'm almost positive isn't gonna happen). But like I said, I'm not really sure where to start when fixing Bra because I'm not sure what Salagir is trying to do with the character. Were I to handle the character, with full rewriting and vetoing privileges, I'd reframe and rethink a lot of her scenes. Bra, from the character presented, ought to be a character who wants to be a hero but doesn't really get what that means - partly because she has never been into a true high-octane scrap for the sake of the universe, partly because she's a bit of a weirdo to begin with. She uses unconventional techniques, but not because she's Teh Smarts, because she's constantly showing off and trying to make herself look good. She's abrasive and rude, but it's because the people around her are afraid of her and don't want to talk to her, and it kind of spirals into "Bra is rude/people avoid Bra/Bra is even ruder because nobody hangs out with her." I'd get inside Bra's head, and say that all her efforts to prove her brilliance are to cover up the fact that everyone but her dad and Gohan hates her and she kinda understands why. Instead of her Super Saiyan 2 form being a big stupid panic button, let it be something she's constantly working with. Here's an easy scene to do. Bra sneaks out of the arena, and instant-transmissions to a nearby asteroid field, holding her breath. She goes Super Saiyan 2, and the rocks around her are instantly disintegrated. She snarls, and tries to rein her power in, trying to compress her power and keep it held back. She takes a step on a nearby asteroid, and hopes it doesn't crumble beneath her foot. It cracks massively. Undaunted, she tries firing a thin beam at another, hoping to bore a hole through it... and instead, the rock is vaporized. A vein pulses in her temple, her concentration slips a little, and the rock she's standing on is blown away by the explosion of released power. She heads home, no closer to having mastered it. The thing is, this wouldn't even require that much rewriting. Despite her heavy screentime, we haven't quite yet had time to really see what makes the character tick. All we'd have to do is get inside her head, or let her have a heart-to-heart with Gohan, or anything along those lines. Point is, I don't think the dive we're in is too deep to pull out of... the only question is, will Salagir keep this train rolling?
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Post by Drakthul on Nov 1, 2016 0:40:12 GMT
I think I should explain in a bit more detail why this is such a quagmire. I'm not trying to be a dismissive dink or anything, I just wanna try to put into context the depth of the problem.
I'm not saying this because I think I could do a better job of fixing it than Salagir. I'm saying that I don't even know how Salagir is going to fix this in a satisfying way at this point. When I say the ship has sailed, I mean the problems needed to be fixed when it was in port. It's a little late now, if you catch me. Fixing Bra isn't really possible, because she's been so exposed. She's been in so many pages, and her backstory has been explored very thoroughly. It's been exposed and displayed, and other characters have all been reacting to her. She's also been tied into the main plot quite heavily as well. There is no "just make her go away", or die, or anything along those lines. I also strongly suspect that Salagir, for better or worse, has an exact idea how the remains of the story are going to go from here.
You can't have the cast turn on her, because they've had god knows how many scenes of them being into what she's about.
You can't randomly change her attitude, that doesn't work either.
And worse yet, every time Salagir's tried to bandage the situation, he's only deepened the problem. Other characters praising how cool she is after she pulls off Sueish behaviour doesn't help. Salagir getting defensive over the character, only deepens the problem as well. I've been where Salagir currently is before, and it sucks. The problem is, fixing it. You can't wave a wand over it. You can't change what's been written on the pages. You can't change all your plans over one character either. It's a really terrible scenario, and to be honest, I am happy that I'm not in Salagir's position right now with the character.
I don't know of a single scene where she could be kept in character, that could improve her as a character at this point, given how established her bahviour pattern is. Her responses are forced, and given her history now, seeing anything come out of her other than her generic aggression, is hard to imagine. Humility isn't going to get beaten into her either, I sincerely doubt that as well, it goes against the narrative that's been set for the character. The response to a loss is just going to be more anger. The ability to really relate to her is really low, and given how much exposure she's had, its really hard to change that in the same continuity.
To recite
So yea, you can't write her out.
And its almost impossible to improve her standing.
And her character is a forced OC whose almost entirely unable to be related to. That's a really hard thing to fix. Making a different personality for her at this point is also out of the cards.
Character growth that feels real is also impossible.
Like it or not, this is where she's at, and this is what the readers and Salagir are going to deal with for the next 30% of the story that's still pending release. It's not an awesome situation for anyone. Salagir doesn't want to hear the grief over the character and is sensitive to it and criticism, which is something I can relate to, so I feel bad for him. A large segment of fans really don't like dealing with it either, especially when they want more of what brought them to the dance (DBM characters) rather than what increasingly looks like a Mary-Sue and Author's Pet project. No one wins here, not even the hates.
It's an ulcer that bleeds on the side of the story. Its a hole in the ship. It won't take on enough water for the ship to sink, but it still sucks, and needed to be fixed years ago. To fix Bra, you would have had to have gone back in time and basically changed what was published. We can't do that, and neither can Salagir.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 1, 2016 1:48:52 GMT
"Okay, mbg. But where does Bra fit into this?" Well, what's Bra's motivation? To get stronger, I suppose. But why does that matter? Do the people around her like to lord their strength over her? No, they're pretty chill about it, and encourage her constantly. Is she weaker than expected? No, she's incredibly powerful, she's just mildly behind the fusion of two Super Saiyans who can only exist for about five seconds, an empowered magical warrior who's been fighting for decades, and the divinely-merged result of two of the greatest fighters ever. And even that's arguable. Is there some kind of threat she's training to face? No, her universe is basically peaceful, and she doesn't seem that interested in protecting it either way. Does she just like fighting because she's a Saiyan and she holds to that honor code? Well, not really, if the King Cold fight is any indication. So what does Bra want, then? Well, she wants to avenge her niece, but that gets resolved really quickly. She wants to control her Super Saiyan 2 form, but she has never been shown making inroads into doing so. It'd be easy to just show her Transmissioning into space and trying to master the form away from everyone else, but she hasn't done that. I guess you could say she wants to control her temper, but that's more what Gohan wants than anything, and even then, he's never been particularly hardline about it. So if Bra doesn't really need anything and doesn't really want anything, then why does she do what she does? And more pointedly, why should I care? I can't relate to Bra on any level, because were I in her situation, I would be doing anything but what she does. She's been surrounded by kind, loving, and encouraging people and been rude and sour to them. She's been given superlative power through little effort of her own and whined about not being stronger than Gotenks. She's been given the choice between an honorable fight and saving a universe and promptly chose the former and cheesed her way through it. She's been handed the world on a silver platter and complained it wasn't quite tasty enough. Yet the story demands me to do so - it begs me to root for the character and be wowed by her. But I don't, and I'm not. Bra is a brick and a cipher and I see nothing in her. So, the question I have for you is: what could be done to fix Bra? I think there are a few things in her story that could make her relatable. These haven't necessarily been brought up in-story, but the groundwork is there. Idea 1 (two paragraphs): -- I'm of the opinion that Bra's life is one of frustration. Her father is Vegito, by far and away the strongest person in the universe, and Vegito has raised her to be his rival. She's got the genes to like fighting. She's gotten trained out the wazoo. She has the mindset that strength = all. However, here's the problem: she cannot be Vegito's rival. Even at her best--at Super Saiyan 2, where she's so unstable she starts hurting people and destroying things--she can't even force him past Super Saiyan 1, and he can go to Super Saiyan 3. She will never be anywhere close to her dad. Which means her life, her existence, is pointless. There will never be a moment where she is relevant. Unlike Gohan, she can't be content not being a fighter, yet if Vegito's actually put to the test, she's useless.
So, remedy #1: Don't show Bra fighting Gohan; show her fighting Vegito. And have her get owned. Let's see Vegito toy with Super Saiyan Bra while he's in base. Let's see her use all her fancy tricks on him, and he snores his way through it. Show just how inconsequential she is. With Vegeta, we can't help but empathize when he gets so easily and quickly surpassed by Goku during the Cell and Buu arcs. Do the same with Bra. Idea 2 (one paragraph): -- Show how disliked Bra actually is. The closest we got to this was Vegito abandoning her in the HTC. Show that she's not really worth his attention. Show that Bulma doesn't know what to do with her--maybe have Bulma talk to Chi-Chi about how worrisome Bra's behavior is. Show that Goten and Trunks don't really enjoy her company. Show Videl being worried about how Pan is afraid of being ridiculed by Bra. Show that people tolerate Bra, but they don't really like her, and they don't even really trust her. Show that Bra is often by herself and pretty unhappy about it--she's just too proud to admit it, and doesn't know how to fix it. That would make her a bit more relatable; almost everyone has felt left out at some point in their life. Idea 3 (one paragraph): --Have Bra actually interact with people outside her universe. Quite honestly, Bra has only really talked to four people not in U16, and they're all people she's fought: U4 Buu, Zangya, Eleim, Cold. I don't know about the novelization, but other than a brief (and doubtably canon) interaction with U18 Bra on a chapter cover, she hasn't had a friendly interaction with anyone. Have her talk to U18 Gohan, Videl, or Pan. Have her talk to Gast pre-match. Have her actually talk to the Heliotes she's fighting for. Have her talk to U12 Trunks, or U9, or whatever. Show that she can be friendly with strangers. Show that she's a human being. That'll make her a lot more relatable. Idea 4 (four points): I don't think Bra will learn anything from a fight. If she loses, it will reinforce her believe of fighting prowess = worth. So, what to do? 1. Have her get swapped with Ginyu. It doesn't even have to be Cold. Bra has been blessed with an awful lot of natural power and talent; if that power was taken away from her, and she was stuck in a body with a measly power of 40,000 or something, she would have to find ways to judge herself other than by strength. She would have to value courage in the face of overwhelming, insurmountable odds. Suddenly all those U9 and Heliote guys wouldn't be so pathetic!
2. Have her get taken over by Babidi. Falling under Babidi's control would make her realize that she is flawed, that she put her family in danger because of it, and that she needs to change.
3. Have Vegito go crazy and kill people. Vegito is the strongest of all, and Bra's always looked up to him because of it. If he kills people, Bra will have to make a decision; are Vegito's actions justified, because he's so strong? Or will Bra have to accept that there are things more important than strength, like protecting the innocent and staying in control?
4. Have Gohan die. This could probably be combined with #3. Have Bra realize that the person she actually admired most was the one who didn't like training and fighting. It'll help widen her ideals.
5. Have Bra somehow get outwitted by U18, or get saved by Goku or Vegeta. Have their example teach Bra that Vegito is flawed. Bra's a bit too deeply involved in the story to get written out yet. So those are my thoughts on what might help fix the problem. Yours? IMO, as Drakthul says, she seems too far gone (and already on INK) that everything would seem very forced. IMO, only last 3 points could actually have chance to happen (and they have to happen at some point, in a way or another, due to Bardock's vision.) Also, I did not consider Bra a big issue until the Cold fight. That whole long fight seemed a bit pointless in the long run, and character shilling had never felt so misplaced and blatant as on this page. While she had some "haters" before that fight, it was not even close to the intensity it was now. The Cold fight pushed some people, who otherwise may have been neutral, over the boiling point.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 1, 2016 2:00:13 GMT
Drakthul and Conqueror Geng I suppose I'm not explaining myself very well. I understand that Bra is hated enough that damage has been done. What I'm asking is, what is the best way to handle it now? Drakthul, you're of the opinion that trying to redeem Bra or make her likable isn't going to work, since it's passed the point of no return character-wise and audience-wise. So, in other words, what's the best course of action to take now, to minimize the damage? Fans won't like Bra, and she can't convincingly change; therefore, should the priority be to try and calm the fans down, or what? Should Salagir: 1) accept that people won't like Bra no matter what, so just proceed with the story he wants to tell? (In other words, what he's currently doing?) 2) try to minimize her role in the story as much as possible? Less screen time, fewer comments, that sort of thing? 3) try to address Bra's flaws--have characters criticize/call her out more? I'd like your thoughts on damage-control at this point. Tell me how you'd handle it without writing Bra out of the story completely. P.S. When I said give her a scene with Vegito, I was implying something during the 10-year gap between the latest special and the tournament. Or even if the two of them are sparring on the side. All of my suggestions are things that could either fit in a flashback when she's older, or else occur later than now.
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Post by Drakthul on Nov 1, 2016 2:05:53 GMT
As I mentioned, its not really something I would know how to fix. Even in terms of managing it? It's a disaster.
The only advice I'd be able to give is this-
1) accept that people won't like Bra no matter what, so just proceed with the story he wants to tell? (In other words, what he's currently doing?)
The only problem with that one is driving away readership, or damaging the legacy of the comic once its done. It's really hard to tell the author to do anything but that.
Were I the one writing it? I'd have something horrible happen to someone even more important to Bra than Pan, and make her utterly helpless to do anything about it. It'd be the closest thing to character growth she might get. Something like Cell killing Gohan, and then Cell defeating her in the ring on top of that. That might be an interesting scenario for growth. Dunno how that'd work at this point though.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 1, 2016 2:11:19 GMT
Drakthul and Conqueror Geng I suppose I'm not explaining myself very well. I understand that Bra is hated enough that damage has been done. What I'm asking is, what is the best way to handle it now? Drakthul, you're of the opinion that trying to redeem Bra or make her likable isn't going to work, since it's passed the point of no return character-wise and audience-wise. So, in other words, what's the best course of action to take now, to minimize the damage? Fans won't like Bra, and she can't convincingly change; therefore, should the priority be to try and calm the fans down, or what? Should Salagir: 1) accept that people won't like Bra no matter what, so just proceed with the story he wants to tell? (In other words, what he's currently doing?) 2) try to minimize her role in the story as much as possible? Less screen time, fewer comments, that sort of thing? 3) try to address Bra's flaws--have characters criticize/call her out more? I'd like your thoughts on damage-control at this point. Tell me how you'd handle it without writing Bra out of the story completely. P.S. When I said give her a scene with Vegito, I was implying something during the 10-year gap between the latest special and the tournament. Or even if the two of them are sparring on the side. All of my suggestions are things that could either fit in a flashback when she's older, or else occur later than now. At this point now, I'd just cut down all character shilling scenes to a minimum like the aggravating page we got today. I don't really have a problem with Bra being an unlikable, unrelatable ass. What comes across as really insulting is how all the actual characters perceive her completely contrary to what the readers see: A) Goku, who already showed indirect dislike of her using senzus, praises her battle tactics (or battle stupidity, depending on how you see it.) IMO, only things that truly showed mastery in this whole useless fight, were the tennis match, and Cold using the smoke screen to bypass Bra's attack. Goku's comment should be slightly more negative, or at least neutral. HE ALSO SHOULDN'T LOOK LIKE A SCARED CAT. B) Buu, who has made meta-KI blast (Ki blasts that can fire other Ki blasts, even of 2 different kinds) in one of his lesser versions compared to now, comments her techniques as if they were marvelous. Further aggravated since this is the first fight Buu actually comments since he got imprisoned (not including his Santa night and Gotenks fight as he was directly involved). Buu is invulnerable to all techniques Bra used, and in fact can do them better himself. He has the advanced God blade for cutting attacks (far better than Bra's scythe). He can turn his own body into Goo (so he doesn't need this after image technique, and can also free himself easily from it). C) Vegetto completely bypasses her senzu BS. This is passable, as her own universe is expected to cheer her, and is more used to her antics.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 1, 2016 2:11:58 GMT
Drakthul and Conqueror Geng I suppose I'm not explaining myself very well. I understand that Bra is hated enough that damage has been done. What I'm asking is, what is the best way to handle it now? Drakthul, you're of the opinion that trying to redeem Bra or make her likable isn't going to work, since it's passed the point of no return character-wise and audience-wise. So, in other words, what's the best course of action to take now, to minimize the damage? Fans won't like Bra, and she can't convincingly change; therefore, should the priority be to try and calm the fans down, or what? Should Salagir: 1) accept that people won't like Bra no matter what, so just proceed with the story he wants to tell? (In other words, what he's currently doing?) 2) try to minimize her role in the story as much as possible? Less screen time, fewer comments, that sort of thing? 3) try to address Bra's flaws--have characters criticize/call her out more? I'd like your thoughts on damage-control at this point. Tell me how you'd handle it without writing Bra out of the story completely. P.S. When I said give her a scene with Vegito, I was implying something during the 10-year gap between the latest special and the tournament. Or even if the two of them are sparring on the side. All of my suggestions are things that could either fit in a flashback when she's older, or else occur later than now. I would say he should still attempt character development for Bra. Personally I would have Bra screw up so bad that it kills Pan. She is the one character Bra is shown not to be an asshole about and her death has been a big issue for her. Gohan telling her to knock it off so as not screw up their chances to stay in the tournament so Pan can revived impacted Bra enough to make her back off. If Bra's actions caused Pan's death it would probably shake her up enough to take a good long hard look at herself. At least that is the only conceivable rock bottom I can see for the character.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 2:16:29 GMT
Drakthul and Conqueror Geng I suppose I'm not explaining myself very well. I understand that Bra is hated enough that damage has been done. What I'm asking is, what is the best way to handle it now? Drakthul, you're of the opinion that trying to redeem Bra or make her likable isn't going to work, since it's passed the point of no return character-wise and audience-wise. So, in other words, what's the best course of action to take now, to minimize the damage? Fans won't like Bra, and she can't convincingly change; therefore, should the priority be to try and calm the fans down, or what? Should Salagir: 1) accept that people won't like Bra no matter what, so just proceed with the story he wants to tell? (In other words, what he's currently doing?) 2) try to minimize her role in the story as much as possible? Less screen time, fewer comments, that sort of thing? 3) try to address Bra's flaws--have characters criticize/call her out more?I'd like your thoughts on damage-control at this point. Tell me how you'd handle it without writing Bra out of the story completely. P.S. When I said give her a scene with Vegito, I was implying something during the 10-year gap between the latest special and the tournament. Or even if the two of them are sparring on the side. All of my suggestions are things that could either fit in a flashback when she's older, or else occur later than now. I like this idea. If somebody were to address her, that she should be less reckless, careless, cocky, etc, (preferably Gohan, I can't see Vegito doing that, and she might not take anyone else seriously except maybe Piccolo?) and have her agree to try (and then, you know, actually try) then I might start liking her more. I don't really think she's at a point of no return, but it'd definitely need some effort to pull her further away from that point.
How I'd handle it though? (I know you weren't talking to me, but still :3)
I haven't really thought about it much, future wise anyway. I suggested something earlier, at the end of the manga have her try to fight Vegito when he goes apeshit and fail, then have a moment with Piccolo or something of that sort (since, you know, Gohan's supposed to die) where we get to see a better side of her that's not completely despicable. Let her find a resolve, let her see where that kind of attitude ("Haha, I'm a god! Fear my awesome power! Oh dammit I just killed my son...") will lead her.
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Post by ltsarge on Nov 1, 2016 3:12:21 GMT
Drakthul and Conqueror Geng I suppose I'm not explaining myself very well. I understand that Bra is hated enough that damage has been done. What I'm asking is, what is the best way to handle it now? Drakthul, you're of the opinion that trying to redeem Bra or make her likable isn't going to work, since it's passed the point of no return character-wise and audience-wise. So, in other words, what's the best course of action to take now, to minimize the damage? Fans won't like Bra, and she can't convincingly change; therefore, should the priority be to try and calm the fans down, or what? Should Salagir: 1) accept that people won't like Bra no matter what, so just proceed with the story he wants to tell? (In other words, what he's currently doing?) 2) try to minimize her role in the story as much as possible? Less screen time, fewer comments, that sort of thing? 3) try to address Bra's flaws--have characters criticize/call her out more? I'd like your thoughts on damage-control at this point. Tell me how you'd handle it without writing Bra out of the story completely. P.S. When I said give her a scene with Vegito, I was implying something during the 10-year gap between the latest special and the tournament. Or even if the two of them are sparring on the side. All of my suggestions are things that could either fit in a flashback when she's older, or else occur later than now. Right now, the best way I see to "fix" Bra as a character in relation to the audience, is to show some story consequence for her personality and behavior. And I personally think a Majinized version of Bra would be the best thing, even if it ended rather quickly. Just the fact she gets Majin take over by babidi would reinforce in the story that she is not like Gohan and Goku, and could act as a wake up call. From that point on, once she gets released, she'll have that reminder of how she got took over because of her impure heart or bad characteristics. This would allow for growth in character development of her trying to "redeem" herself, especially if she actually hurt someone. She may still be a bitch sometimes, but we could see steps to try and become a better person. This would have more impact than a Ginyu swap on her character, because a Ginyu swap, while entertaining, is irrelevant to her personality. It can be done to anyone. Babidi's magic take over however works on the relatively bad people, and having someone do that to her could be the cold water in the face to have her see what she is compared to others. That she's only a few steps better than some of the villains themselves. Something this dramatic I think would win over leagues of the bra haters and critics.
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??????
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 1, 2016 21:46:56 GMT
Locked, as @archon started a new, updated poll.
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