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Post by Griffith on May 15, 2017 5:51:18 GMT
So if someone goes past the peak of their powers, does it not count? Just because he was upset? It wouldn't be the first inconsistency in DB. I dunno if they'd become equals in strength. Even if Cell didn't proportionally gain in potential and instead just received a flat equal rate to Frieza, this is where his Saiyan traits could kick in and give him an edge thanks to the ability to zenkai and return even stronger, which is why I've been arguing he'd inherently just be better thanks to his mixed DNA. First, I think we're just having different interpretations of "improved". I think a Frieza that can regenerate his head if it's blown off is an improvement over one that doesn't. Ergo, Cell is an improved version of Frieza. Likewise, Piccolo can't survive if his head is blown off, but Cell pretty obviously can. So he's an improved version of Piccolo in that regard. I'm not saying he Galick Guns better than Vegeta or something (though at the time he could since he just had a higher PL), just that his mixed heritage inherently gives him advantages over his parents. Second, I fail to see how Cell isn't "that much more" powerful than Frieza when the main characters went through four variations of Super Saiyan until they found one strong enough to put him down. I mean, if we're going to compare the both of them to Beerus or something, yeah they both look like ants, but Cell was leagues above Frieza in his day, and remained leagues above him until that silly Golden Form. When it came to raw power Cell took it every day of the week that ended in Y. He had DNA from Goku, Piccolo, and Vegeta during the Saiyan saga, Frieza and King Cold's DNA from when they landed on Earth, and even in his Imperfect stage was greater than all their PLs combined when they were collected. Then he absorbed a couple of androids that weren't even a threat to someone like Super Vegeta and became even stronger. This is why I've been arguing that he'd proportionally get stronger and not just equal out with Frieza. Everything about him, raw power wise, has him multiples higher than his building blocks. Even Goku couldn't surpass him at the time. Why would it be so different with his potential when he's made of the greatest potential breakers ever aside from Gohan? I wouldn't consider that to be apart of their normal potential. They can't actually reach that state and stay during it for consistent periods of time. I'm not sure how Zenkai's are going to give him an edge in the long run, considering that once the user gets strong enough they fizzle out and stop happening. Which would allow Freeza to catch up to the Perfect Android in the end. But, I really haven't been arguing that this whole time. Honestly, nothing really states that Cell is an improved version of Piccolo for all we know that ability is just another gift from one of his other many genetic donors he has. For all we know the ability to survive without his head is from a cockroach that Gero found in the lab. Yeah, I know that with all of his genetic donors from a biological stand point he is inherently better. I've never argued that Cell wasn't that much stronger than Freeza. What I meant was the further the two trained the less and less the gap would become, until eventually it would finally become meaningless in the end. Yes, it's the fact that Toriyama needed a strong villain and since his editor had gotten rid of both of his previous ones he was forced to compromise. It's like how Ten, Yamcha, and Krillin managed to become leaps and bounds stronger than Goku with God's training. It's essentially the only reason why Zenkai's exist in the first place. Characters need to be strong enough for whatever role they're going to have. If Cell showed up, and got one shot by Piccolo then there wouldn't be any saga would there?
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Post by Axalon on May 15, 2017 7:14:53 GMT
]I wouldn't consider that to be apart of their normal potential. They can't actually reach that state and stay during it for consistent periods of time. I don't see why not. If this were the case Gohan's power never would've gotten much higher than Raditz. Potential is just that, potential. You just have to tap into it. Initially it may be through something like rage boosts and uncontrollable, but with proper training so long as the potential is there it can be tapped into. If you never had the potential to begin with that's a different story altogether, and you eventually hit a plateau. I'd agree, until DBS came along and showed Black abusing zenkais to high heaven and back against SSB opponents using a version of Goku's body who at the very least was post Buu-saga when he stole it. Nah, that's the Frieza part of him. Yeah, that's typical power creep. That said, I still don't see why Cell would have so many advantages and just not come out the better for it, since I've been arguing that Cell would inherently have more potential thanks to his genetics.
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Post by Griffith on May 15, 2017 7:55:59 GMT
I don't see why not. If this were the case Gohan's power never would've gotten much higher than Raditz. Potential is just that, potential. You just have to tap into it. Initially it may be through something like rage boosts and uncontrollable, but with proper training so long as the potential is there it can be tapped into. If you never had the potential to begin with that's a different story altogether, and you eventually hit a plateau. I'd agree, until DBS came along and showed Black abusing zenkais to high heaven and back against SSB opponents using a version of Goku's body who at the very least was post Buu-saga when he stole it. Nah, that's the Frieza part of him. Yeah, that's typical power creep. That said, I still don't see why Cell would have so many advantages and just not come out the better for it, since I've been arguing that Cell would inherently have more potential thanks to his genetics. The difference between the two of those is that one was stated to be Gohan unlocking some of the potential power through the use of rage, The other one, Vegeta was not only directly stated to have nearly reaches his limits. It was also never implied or shown to be anything more than a rage boost. Or, it could just be Dragon Ball being inconsistent. That's only one of the versions however, and, that does still link nicely to one of my original points however. And, once again they did fizzle out eventually once Black got strong enough that they didn't matter anymore. Which is what's going to happen to Cell regardless, and once that happens Freeza's going to catch up. You don't give the cockroach any credit? It certainly wasn't King Cold that helped propel his suitability to new heights. But, he really wouldn't though. Freeza, out of everyone in his potential DNA is simply the one who has such overwhelming potential that the other's outside of the useful ability. Just do not matter at all. And this is the point that I've been arguing. Freeza's potential is just so massively greater than everyone else's that I'm dumbfounded trying to believe that somehow managed to pool up and equal even one tenth of his potential.
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Post by Axalon on May 15, 2017 9:35:11 GMT
The difference between the two of those is that one was stated to be Gohan unlocking some of the potential power through the use of rage, The other one, Vegeta was not only directly stated to have nearly reaches his limits. It was also never implied or shown to be anything more than a rage boost. Or, it could just be Dragon Ball being inconsistent. I think it's the latter again. While Vegeta may once have been at his limit, now he can get stronger because now there's a whole new series to milk for cash. It's the same thing. Goku's body, Goku's Saiyan ability to zenkai. Zenkais in and of themselves have been drastically inconsistent in terms of how much power they give (basically as much as the plot requires) but it's all the same thing. There's no proof that Black's zenkais "fizzled out" really. Vegeta simply overwhelmed him, and then he never healed and started the process all over since Zamasu was getting Mafuba'd and spooked. Then they fused after that. Then he turned into a cloud. Why would the others not matter? If Cell has the combined potential of his genetics then by default he'd be above Frieza. It may not be a whole lot comparatively, but enough that he would be stronger, no? Which is what I've been arguing for. If Frieza's maximum is a 9, but Cell's maximum is a combined 13 thanks to genes from Frieza, Goku, Vegeta, etc, then why would you argue they'd equal out? Even a mere difference of 10,000 in terms of power levels can spell disaster for the weaker opponent.
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Post by Griffith on May 15, 2017 9:52:35 GMT
I think it's the latter again. While Vegeta may once have been at his limit, now he can get stronger because now there's a whole new series to milk for cash. It's the same thing. Goku's body, Goku's Saiyan ability to zenkai. Zenkais in and of themselves have been drastically inconsistent in terms of how much power they give (basically as much as the plot requires) but it's all the same thing. There's no proof that Black's zenkais "fizzled out" really. Vegeta simply overwhelmed him, and then he never healed and started the process all over since Zamasu was getting Mafuba'd and spooked. Then they fused after that. Then he turned into a cloud. Why would the others not matter? If Cell has the combined potential of his genetics then by default he'd be above Frieza. It may not be a whole lot comparatively, but enough that he would be stronger, no? Which is what I've been arguing for. If Frieza's maximum is a 9, but Cell's maximum is a combined 13 thanks to genes from Frieza, Goku, Vegeta, etc, then why would you argue they'd equal out? Even a mere difference of 10,000 in terms of power levels can spell disaster for the weaker opponent. Then, why did Goku never reach God tier after Ginyu's beating? It clearly isn't Goku's Zenkai otherwise he'd be God Tier himself. It's just an inconsistency with Goku Black. Or Zamasu can bring out the Saiya-ness to a whole new level. Actually, didn't Black imply that the Zenkai's stop when you gets strong enough? So, maybe he hit the limit? Wouldn't Merged Zamasu gain the Zenkais then? Wouldn't he be aware of the fact then? Just chalk it up to Cell and Kaio Ken. But, the problem with that is it really doesn't matter. Freeza's potential is just too big, which has been my argument the whole time. If you poured the combined full potential of four planet busters, and one galaxy buster does it really matter that you have the potential of the planet busters? All of their might totaled wont even reach Freeza's toes in terms of power.
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Post by Son Pan on May 15, 2017 10:12:58 GMT
I think your argument is boiling down to the belief on how Cell's genetics work. Gog seems to be championing Cell is only getting a fraction of his genetics donors abilities thus he is a water downed version of them. Axalon seems to be arguing Cell getting the whole thing and that the DNA is actually being blended in a way that makes Cell superior to the donors. You see it as different process that is where you are not agreeing on.
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Post by Griffith on May 15, 2017 10:19:30 GMT
I think your argument is boiling down to the belief on how Cell's genetics work. Gog seems to be championing Cell is only getting a fraction of his genetics donors abilities thus he is a water downed version of them. Axalon seems to be arguing Cell getting the whole thing and that the DNA is actually being blended in a way that makes Cell superior to the donors. You see it as different process that is where you are not agreeing on. I gave up that view half way through the debate. We would never have gotten anywhere if I stuck with the belief (still do believe it) what I'm arguing currently is that Cell wouldn't be that much stronger than Freeza's full potential simply because of the sheer, retarded size of it in comparison to the others.
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Post by Axalon on May 15, 2017 10:31:50 GMT
Then, why did Goku never reach God tier after Ginyu's beating? It clearly isn't Goku's Zenkai otherwise he'd be God Tier himself. It's just an inconsistency with Goku Black. Or Zamasu can bring out the Saiya-ness to a whole new level. Goku never reached god levels for the same reason you used earlier. If Piccolo came up and defeated Cell in one punch there'd be no arc, right? Same thing with Frieza and Goku. Zenkais are plot. Vegeta went up from 18,000 to 24,000 after losing to Goku. Then he lost to Zarbon and went up to 30,000. Then he lost to Recoome and suddenly he's evenly fighting Frieza's first form who sits at 530,000. If he had kept up the pattern then logically Vegeta's next PL should've been 36,000. Instead he gets a boost of 500,000 out of the blue. Why? Because if he'd stayed at 36,000 Frieza never would've transformed and likely killed them all before Piccolo showed up. Plot. Then Goku zenkais himself from OVER 9,000 to 90,000 in a week and gets thrown in the healing tank after Ginyu. His PL increases up to 3,000,000. Because plot. I believe that's from the DBS manga, and even then I believe it was only a theory from Future Trunks. That in and of itself opens up a different can of worms, considering that the anime and manga are diverging in the power scale. Hit isn't strong enough to handle SSB in the manga, while he fought SSB KKx10 Goku in the anime. Maybe? He had that weird half-immortal-but-not-really thing going on before he became a cloud. He might not even count as a Saiyan anymore. He showed no type of Super Saiyan transformation despite having access to at least one form back when he was two separate beings, even when Vegito was making him eat dirt. Considering this initially started as a "who has more potential" discussion, then I'd say yes it does matter in terms of raw numbers. It may not "matter" in terms of stacking up in a universe destroying contest or something, but if Cell flat out has MORE, even if that extra juice is insignificant by comparison, then he wins that particular numbers contest by default, which is what I've been arguing the whole time.
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Post by Griffith on May 15, 2017 11:13:32 GMT
Considering this initially started as a "who has more potential" discussion, then I'd say yes it does matter in terms of raw numbers. It may not "matter" in terms of stacking up in a universe destroying contest or something, but if Cell flat out has MORE, even if that extra juice is insignificant by comparison, then he wins that particular numbers contest by default, which is what I've been arguing the whole time. Oh, well then I guess the discussions over. I was only really arguing that Cell wasn't that much stronger potential wise than Freeza.
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Post by Son Pan on May 15, 2017 20:23:46 GMT
I'll be different and say Majin Buu has the most potential. Buu never trained ever. Bibidi just made him a chaotic beast, but he had little rational thought. He just killed for fun. Once he absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai he became child like and innocent. He still never really tested his power. It really isn't until he evolves into Super Buu, obtains reason that we start to see a Buu who could do more. Majin Buu was created to be the strongest being in the universe and to destroy the gods to allow Bibidi to usurp the gods. He is the ultimate being in a lot of ways. His regeneration is the most advance we have ever seen in the series. He can survive the vacuum of space, doesn't need sleep or food really, has magical power, and inherent power. Bibidi even designed Buu to absorb beings in case he ran into someone more powerful. In context of new DB material that little ability was probably put in to deal with god of destruction. Majin Buu can instantly learn or mimic techniques he has seen once.
If Majin Buu trained hard that he would receive the most gains we have ever seen. Plus didn't Toriyama retcon that Bibidi used a god as the bases for Majin Buu? If he gained a genuine love of fighting and desire to improve himself he would likely surpass Goku and Vegeta quickly enough and possibly rival Beerus without much problem. When we consider that Kid Buu being reincarnated into a human did nothing to undo that potential, despite being reborn as entirely different species that is not as strong as the Saiyans or Freeza. It says something. Uub could possibly have the greatest potential ever. Super still has to end with the final DB chapter/DBZ episode. Goku was interested in Uub despite having fought beings way stronger than Majin Buu at that point. Buu may be like Freeza in sense that if he trains seriously he will be quickly surpass those beings that displaced Buu in terms of power.
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Post by christhesaiyan on May 16, 2017 21:46:47 GMT
I think they could have shown Vegeta in a pre SS3 state - No Eyebrows. That could hint that he did manage to tap into the transformation thanks to his royal rage. Since Piccolo did say Gohan could grow stronger in his awakened form, there's a lot of potential stuff to see. He didn't try to tap into SSJ3 because he knew the form was too flawed, plus he doesn't like trying to copy Goku. With SSJ he was already trying to unlock the form before Goku got it, and with SSJ2 he didn't know Goku was trying to unlock the same transformation by training in Other World (although he probably knew Goku was still training). Remember how angry he was that Goku (and Gohan) mastered SSJ in the Time Chamber? He wants to get strong in his own right.
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