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Post by Decimus on Aug 26, 2016 22:32:23 GMT
I can understand why he doesn't have it in the show, as he would be WAY too powerful. However, it would be logical for him to know it. It's reasonable that Gero passed over it while creating him, but he could have gotten it after his self-destruct. I found it weird that he only got Goku's IT. So what do you all think?
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Post by Azoth on Aug 26, 2016 22:39:15 GMT
Cell may have known the KK from Goku, but deemed it useless, believing his zenkai boost would be enough to deal with Gohan (it almost was). Kaioken just seems to be an inferior version of SSJ regardless when it comes to saiyans and those like them.
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Post by jkrevan on Aug 26, 2016 23:00:20 GMT
He might know it... But as stated, he deems it too draining for little gain...
just like he said he knows the Genki Dama.
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Post by Symbiotic on Sept 7, 2016 11:29:21 GMT
It's possible he has the same deal going on with the Super Kaioken. Amplifying his natural power might just be impossible without burning through it all at once, since his energy is mainly derived from the Super Saiyan transformation. Cell could have used the Kaioken in his Imperfect form so long as he didn't go too high, maybe. But as soon as the cyborgs were added to his system and he became Perfect, the kaioken would have burned out his ki for too little a boost to be worth more than a desperation tactic. In his Super Perfect state, it would just be worse.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 18, 2016 21:49:12 GMT
Cell knew the kaio-ken—that's almost certain. But he didn't use it.
Why? He fought people who could have beaten him, in all three forms (Piccolo and 16 while imperfect, Vegeta and Trunks while semi-perfect, and SSJ2 Gohan while perfect). There are explanations for why he didn't, of course, but I suspect that the real reason is the same as why no one else learned the kaio-ken during the weeks or months they spent training with King Kai—it's "Goku's thing," and/or Toriyama didn't want to clutter the fights up with extra techniques he would have to write around somehow.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 18, 2016 23:21:00 GMT
In my opinion Kaioken should have never existed. Especially due to pain of having to withstand scenarios like SSJBLUE Kaioken.
However, in DBM it serves a purpose very properly for the weaker races' characters: Uub, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Videl, etc...
Though in the case of Uub, I'd have liked him to have some sort of special ability unique to himself to channel Kid Buu's spiritual energy, instead of a Kaioken.
Kaioken in Uub, to me, somehow implies lots of Kid Buu's energy/power was lost and now Uub has to compensate with odd techniques to strain his body.
The existence of a technique like that became a big issue once the characters started having powers of 1 millions. Kaioken was good for opponents with big relative gaps, but which in totality were low compared to what was seen later.
Opponent 1: 2000 power level vs. Opponent 2: 6,000 power level.
Opponent 1 does a Kaioken x 3 and serves to close the gap. The units are not yet so big.
However, now compare:
Opponent 1: 80 million power level vs. Opponent 2: 120 million power level.
Opponent 1 does a kaioken x3, gets 240 millions and bukkakes Opponent 2.
It becomes too much of an OP ability at this stage.
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Post by Azoth on Sept 18, 2016 23:48:22 GMT
In my opinion Kaioken should have never existed. Especially due to pain of having to withstand scenarios like SSJBLUE Kaioken. However, in DBM it serves a purpose very properly for the weaker races' characters: Uub, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Videl, etc... Though in the case of Uub, I'd have liked him to have some sort of special ability unique to himself to channel Kid Buu's spiritual energy, instead of a Kaioken. Kaioken in Uub, to me, somehow implies lots of Kid Buu's energy/power was lost and now Uub has to compensate with odd techniques to strain his body. The existence of a technique like that became a big issue once the characters started having powers of 1 millions. Kaioken was good for opponents with big relative gaps, but which in totality were low compared to what was seen later. Opponent 1: 2000 power level vs. Opponent 2: 6,000 power level.
Opponent 1 does a Kaioken x 3 and serves to close the gap. The units are not yet so big.However, now compare: Opponent 1: 80 million power level vs. Opponent 2: 120 million power level.
Opponent 1 does a kaioken x3, gets 240 millions and bukkakes Opponent 2.It becomes too much of an OP ability at this stage. This really just makes me wonder why Piccolo/Krillin/Yamcha/Chiaozu don't know Kaioken. Did King Kai not even bother to teach them, or what? They had a month or so IIRC before they got revived. King Kai could have at least gotten them started, and Goku should be able to fill in the gaps if they didn't totally grasp it in time. They all could have been more helpful through Cell Saga and really only faded out in Buu.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 19, 2016 1:55:48 GMT
In my opinion Kaioken should have never existed. Especially due to pain of having to withstand scenarios like SSJBLUE Kaioken. However, in DBM it serves a purpose very properly for the weaker races' characters: Uub, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Videl, etc... Though in the case of Uub, I'd have liked him to have some sort of special ability unique to himself to channel Kid Buu's spiritual energy, instead of a Kaioken. Kaioken in Uub, to me, somehow implies lots of Kid Buu's energy/power was lost and now Uub has to compensate with odd techniques to strain his body. The existence of a technique like that became a big issue once the characters started having powers of 1 millions. Kaioken was good for opponents with big relative gaps, but which in totality were low compared to what was seen later. Opponent 1: 2000 power level vs. Opponent 2: 6,000 power level.
Opponent 1 does a Kaioken x 3 and serves to close the gap. The units are not yet so big.However, now compare: Opponent 1: 80 million power level vs. Opponent 2: 120 million power level.
Opponent 1 does a kaioken x3, gets 240 millions and bukkakes Opponent 2.It becomes too much of an OP ability at this stage. I agree, it gets a bit ridiculous. I wish that Kaioken was more of an addition to PL, not a multiplier. One of the things I'm glad DBM does is simply do "Kaioken next level," "stronger Kaioken," or "max Kaioken" to avoid PL craziness.
I'd always assumed Uub, as reincarnated Kid Buu, would be SS3-tier with loads of endurance once he was fully trained. So I'm a bit curious as to why Salagir apparently nerfed him so that his base form is weaker than Fat Buu, who SS3 Goku could beat up pretty handily. Is he just not full strength yet, or did Salagir think it'd be too OP to have a human as strong as Kid Buu?
If Uub had Kid Buu's endurance in addition to his strength, Kaioken would be a very helpful technique for him, since he'd have the stamina to use it for long amounts of time.
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Post by Kaio del Norte on Sept 19, 2016 2:13:45 GMT
In my opinion Kaioken should have never existed. Especially due to pain of having to withstand scenarios like SSJBLUE Kaioken. However, in DBM it serves a purpose very properly for the weaker races' characters: Uub, Krilin, Tenshinhan, Videl, etc... Though in the case of Uub, I'd have liked him to have some sort of special ability unique to himself to channel Kid Buu's spiritual energy, instead of a Kaioken. Kaioken in Uub, to me, somehow implies lots of Kid Buu's energy/power was lost and now Uub has to compensate with odd techniques to strain his body. The existence of a technique like that became a big issue once the characters started having powers of 1 millions. Kaioken was good for opponents with big relative gaps, but which in totality were low compared to what was seen later. Opponent 1: 2000 power level vs. Opponent 2: 6,000 power level.
Opponent 1 does a Kaioken x 3 and serves to close the gap. The units are not yet so big.However, now compare: Opponent 1: 80 million power level vs. Opponent 2: 120 million power level.
Opponent 1 does a kaioken x3, gets 240 millions and bukkakes Opponent 2.It becomes too much of an OP ability at this stage. This really just makes me wonder why Piccolo/Krillin/Yamcha/Chiaozu don't know Kaioken. Did King Kai not even bother to teach them, or what? They had a month or so IIRC before they got revived. King Kai could have at least gotten them started, and Goku should be able to fill in the gaps if they didn't totally grasp it in time. They all could have been more helpful through Cell Saga and really only faded out in Buu. I've always assumed Tenshinhan knew Kaio-ken and that's how he was able to keep-up with much stronger ennemies like semi-perfect Cell or Buutenks.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 19, 2016 2:44:05 GMT
I disagree with Kaioken being overpowered. It was one of the rare techniques in DB franchise that has drawback that prevented the multipliers from getting too out of hand. When Goku went over the limit his body could go to he damaged his body and burned out his ki too. That showed itself pretty well against Vegeta and later Freeza. This was the perfect technique for non-Saiyans to used to help them close the gap more between them and the Saiyan characters IMO. I felt it was a shame that Toriyama never bothered to give this technique to the other characters. Power levels stopped being a thing after Freeza, so to me saying something like times 10 wasn't problematic, especially since we don't know gaps in power. Plus the natural strain put on the body made it a reasonable excuse for why Saiyans couldn't use it together with their Super Saiyan forms (before Super did SSB thing anyway).
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Post by Jaquan on Sept 19, 2016 11:23:37 GMT
You know even SSB Kaioken was pretty well explained (as it's a form when you have the best control over your Ki) and still Goku couldn't hold it for too long and suffered massive after effects. But yeah Kaioken is very crippled by its downsides so it makes sense that Cell even if he knew it decided not to use it.
As of Tien and rest... No they didn't have Kaioken. Reason why Tien was able to "keep up" was due to him using the next best thing when it comes to overcoming your limits - Shin Kikoho.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 19, 2016 17:50:46 GMT
I disagree with Kaioken being overpowered. It was one of the rare techniques in DB franchise that has drawback that prevented the multipliers from getting too out of hand. When Goku went over the limit his body could go to he damaged his body and burned out his ki too. That showed itself pretty well against Vegeta and later Freeza. This was the perfect technique for non-Saiyans to used to help them close the gap more between them and the Saiyan characters IMO. I felt it was a shame that Toriyama never bothered to give this technique to the other characters. Power levels stopped being a thing after Freeza, so to me saying something like times 10 wasn't problematic, especially since we don't know gaps in power. Plus the natural strain put on the body made it a reasonable excuse for why Saiyans couldn't use it together with their Super Saiyan forms (before Super did SSB thing anyway). I agree. Kaioken offered a massive power boost but you had to make use of it as quickly as possible. On top of that, I can't recall anyone besides Nappa who actually lost to the Kaioken. - Vegeta. Had a difficult time, Goku still required aid from Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe so he could win with a spirit bomb. - I know he powered up with it to shock Captain Ginyu. Can't remember an instance where he used it to win against the Ginyu Force though. - Frieza. Experienced pain from a x20 Kaioken. Survived the super spirit bomb. Goku had to go SS to win. - From here, Super Saiyan straight up replaced Kaioken because it was just better, with far less drawbacks. If anything, SS is the more disgusting powerup between the two once it gets to Bargain Sale levels. - Hit. SSB Kaioken was the only thing making Goku competitive against Hit in the first place, and even then Hit wasn't going all out. Plus as soon as the fight ended Goku was straight up exhausted and couldn't even stand up. Piccolo had to carry him out. If we're talking DBM though, I see no issues with Cell or a Majin Cell being able to use it. If anything it would give him the sorely needed power boost to remain somewhat competitive amongst the top tiers of the tournament. Not enough to win, I think, but capable of offering some entertaining fights.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 22, 2016 13:26:08 GMT
- I know he powered up with it to shock Captain Ginyu. Can't remember an instance where he used it to win against the Ginyu Force though. Captain Ginyu would have (presumably) defeated Goku if he didn't know the kaio-ken. I count that as a win for the Kaio-Ken. To say nothing of the long-term consequences. I mean, they're probably not going to stop him if he fights a foe that can only be stopped by the Blue Kaio-Ken or whatever it's called, but hey.
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Post by Decimus on Sept 24, 2016 1:19:08 GMT
I disagree with Kaioken being overpowered. It was one of the rare techniques in DB franchise that has drawback that prevented the multipliers from getting too out of hand. When Goku went over the limit his body could go to he damaged his body and burned out his ki too. That showed itself pretty well against Vegeta and later Freeza. This was the perfect technique for non-Saiyans to used to help them close the gap more between them and the Saiyan characters IMO. I felt it was a shame that Toriyama never bothered to give this technique to the other characters. Power levels stopped being a thing after Freeza, so to me saying something like times 10 wasn't problematic, especially since we don't know gaps in power. Plus the natural strain put on the body made it a reasonable excuse for why Saiyans couldn't use it together with their Super Saiyan forms (before Super did SSB thing anyway). Yeah, the others not knowing King Kai's techniques was a real wasted opportunity in my eyes. Even when the gap is too wide for kaioken to fill, they could've charged a spirit bomb while the saiyans distracted the enemy.
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Post by whatever on Sept 28, 2016 1:21:48 GMT
At Hell... -Freeza: Hey, Cell, something's been bugging me. Why didn't you use the kaioken to defeat Gohan? -Cell: Kaio wha... SHIT, i had totally forgotten i had that one.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 30, 2016 3:23:20 GMT
At Hell... -Freeza: Hey, Cell, something's been bugging me. Why didn't you use the kaioken to defeat Gohan? -Cell: Kaio wha... SHIT, i had totally forgotten i had that one. —Goku: Don't feel so bad about it. It happens to me all the time. —King Piccolo: ...When did you get here? —Cell: Oh, he can teleport now. Didn't I mention that?
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Post by Sans the Comic on Oct 15, 2016 5:52:25 GMT
I can understand why he doesn't have it in the show, as he would be WAY too powerful. However, it would be logical for him to know it. It's reasonable that Gero passed over it while creating him, but he could have gotten it after his self-destruct. I found it weird that he only got Goku's IT. So what do you all think? I think it's more likely that Cell had been using the super saiyan power and SSJ2 when he regenerated after his failed suicide, given golden auras he's been shown to have. SSJ and Kaioken are incompatible, as told by goku in DB Super.
Now, if cell were able to use god ki, he'd have access to both, like goku does.
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 18, 2016 6:41:39 GMT
If I remember correctly, In DB Kai episode 70, Imperfect Cell actual tells Piccolo that he knows both the Spirit Bomb AND the kaioken abilities. If this is true (plus I'm too lay to look it up to confirm it myself), Cell always knew the kaioken since the very beginning, but never utilized it for whatever reason he may have (like it being too damaging for his body once he became Perfect).
But if Cell does know the kaioken and can handle the drawbacks, Cell using that power would have easily enabled him to completely smoke SSJ2 Teen Gohan without any problems. For example, during the kamehameha wave battle, Cell could have used the kaioken any time and completely obliterated Gohan and became the undisputed winner during his Cell Games. That would have been a epic mindfuck since Cell kept such a impressive ability underneath his sleeve all that time, just to be used at such a crucial moment! Nobody would have expected that as kids back in the day lol.
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Post by kinnikuman on Oct 21, 2016 18:00:45 GMT
KAIOKEN attacks the cells, damaging them equally. While it might have given cell a Temp boost his body would have been wrecked.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 21, 2016 20:01:04 GMT
If I remember correctly, In DB Kai episode 70, Imperfect Cell actual tells Piccolo that he knows both the Spirit Bomb AND the kaioken abilities. If this is true (plus I'm too lay to look it up to confirm it myself), Cell always knew the kaioken since the very beginning, but never utilized it for whatever reason he may have (like it being too damaging for his body once he became Perfect). But if Cell does know the kaioken and can handle the drawbacks, Cell using that power would have easily enabled him to completely smoke SSJ2 Teen Gohan without any problems. For example, during the kamehameha wave battle, Cell could have used the kaioken any time and completely obliterated Gohan and became the undisputed winner during his Cell Games. That would have been a epic mindfuck since Cell kept such a impressive ability underneath his sleeve all that time, just to be used at such a crucial moment! Nobody would have expected that as kids back in the day lol. It is in Kai. Had a picture showing the (missed) edits of "Spirit Bombs" in Kai but the picture got corrupted Was Cell thinking like Vegeta where he wanted a challenge? If so, then Cell purposely handicapped himself against SS2 Gohan. Maybe during the beam struggle, he thought he had enough power but the surprise attack from Vegeta distracted him and didn't have enough time to shout Kaioken. Side note, Cell was the perfect... pun intended... candidate to have his own movie instead of Frieza. He recalls his fight with Gohan and starts implementing Kaioken and unlocks his version of a God transformation (his TRUE Perfect Form) and returns to fight Goku, pissed that Goku came back to life.
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