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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 21, 2016 20:31:08 GMT
If I remember correctly, In DB Kai episode 70, Imperfect Cell actual tells Piccolo that he knows both the Spirit Bomb AND the kaioken abilities. If this is true (plus I'm too lay to look it up to confirm it myself), Cell always knew the kaioken since the very beginning, but never utilized it for whatever reason he may have (like it being too damaging for his body once he became Perfect). But if Cell does know the kaioken and can handle the drawbacks, Cell using that power would have easily enabled him to completely smoke SSJ2 Teen Gohan without any problems. For example, during the kamehameha wave battle, Cell could have used the kaioken any time and completely obliterated Gohan and became the undisputed winner during his Cell Games. That would have been a epic mindfuck since Cell kept such a impressive ability underneath his sleeve all that time, just to be used at such a crucial moment! Nobody would have expected that as kids back in the day lol. It is in Kai. Had a picture showing the (missed) edits of "Spirit Bombs" in Kai but the picture got corrupted  Was Cell thinking like Vegeta where he wanted a challenge? If so, then Cell purposely handicapped himself against SS2 Gohan. Maybe during the beam struggle, he thought he had enough power but the surprise attack from Vegeta distracted him and didn't have enough time to shout Kaioken. Side note, Cell was the perfect... pun intended... candidate to have his own movie instead of Frieza. He recalls his fight with Gohan and starts implementing Kaioken and unlocks his version of a God transformation (his TRUE Perfect Form) and returns to fight Goku, pissed that Goku came back to life. Problem is, who would have revived Cell though? Although with very cheap plot devices and weak characters, it was explained some of Freeza's empire survived after his death. Cell on the other hand had no organizations or companions. He was a lone wolf who likely, wasn't held dearly by anyone except by Dr. Gero (who was already dead). |
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 21, 2016 20:41:34 GMT
If I remember correctly, In DB Kai episode 70, Imperfect Cell actual tells Piccolo that he knows both the Spirit Bomb AND the kaioken abilities. If this is true (plus I'm too lay to look it up to confirm it myself), Cell always knew the kaioken since the very beginning, but never utilized it for whatever reason he may have (like it being too damaging for his body once he became Perfect). But if Cell does know the kaioken and can handle the drawbacks, Cell using that power would have easily enabled him to completely smoke SSJ2 Teen Gohan without any problems. For example, during the kamehameha wave battle, Cell could have used the kaioken any time and completely obliterated Gohan and became the undisputed winner during his Cell Games. That would have been a epic mindfuck since Cell kept such a impressive ability underneath his sleeve all that time, just to be used at such a crucial moment! Nobody would have expected that as kids back in the day lol. It is in Kai. Had a picture showing the (missed) edits of "Spirit Bombs" in Kai but the picture got corrupted Was Cell thinking like Vegeta where he wanted a challenge? If so, then Cell purposely handicapped himself against SS2 Gohan. Maybe during the beam struggle, he thought he had enough power but the surprise attack from Vegeta distracted him and didn't have enough time to shout Kaioken. Side note, Cell was the perfect... pun intended... candidate to have his own movie instead of Frieza. He recalls his fight with Gohan and starts implementing Kaioken and unlocks his version of a God transformation (his TRUE Perfect Form) and returns to fight Goku, pissed that Goku came back to life. Yeah I remember hearing Cell saying that in kai when he was Imperfect fightung against Piccolo in Ginger Town. Once Piccolo regrew his arm and was about to reengage Imperfect Cell, Krillin and Trunks arrive and question Cell. And That when Cell reveals he knew both the spirit bomb and kaioken techniques. If I could somehow find that fight again on youtube, I'll post the URL. As for Cell not using that technique agai st SSJ2 Gohan, the reason will never be known. Just by using the kaioken X 4 in his Super Perfect form, Cell would have power slightly below SSJ3 Goku, which is comparable to Fat Buu or Kid Buu. Cell is truly a powerhouse no matter how you look at with the kaioken ability lol. And yes I agree with Cell being a perfect candidate with his own DB movie. Having discovered his unique god / golden form, Cell takes revenge while also possessing kaioken! God that movie will be epic. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 21, 2016 20:46:14 GMT
It is in Kai. Had a picture showing the (missed) edits of "Spirit Bombs" in Kai but the picture got corrupted Was Cell thinking like Vegeta where he wanted a challenge? If so, then Cell purposely handicapped himself against SS2 Gohan. Maybe during the beam struggle, he thought he had enough power but the surprise attack from Vegeta distracted him and didn't have enough time to shout Kaioken. Side note, Cell was the perfect... pun intended... candidate to have his own movie instead of Frieza. He recalls his fight with Gohan and starts implementing Kaioken and unlocks his version of a God transformation (his TRUE Perfect Form) and returns to fight Goku, pissed that Goku came back to life. Problem is, who would have revived Cell though? Although with very cheap plot devices and weak characters, it was explained some of Freeza's empire survived after his death. Cell on the other hand had no organizations or companions. He was a lone wolf who likely, wasn't held dearly by anyone except by Dr. Gero (who was already dead). Oops, forgot to mention how he could have been revived. Options 1) A single cell survived the blast, being too weak, it barely regenerated, say took 4 years (to avoid loophole of Buu's attack). Then Cell travels to other world to search for New Namek, steal dragon balls, speaks Namekian because Piccolo's cells, no immortality but learns of a stronger power, trains, rest is played as Frieza's movie. 2) Rival scientist models Dr. Gero's ultimate creation and creates his version of Cell... but the single cell this rival was observing was still alive, stole the new Cell body (because it is compatible) and returns to life. 3) A Cell Jr was created when Cell was regenerating in other world so no one else would've seen it happen. Tells Jr in case Cell dies, revive him when Gohan loses strength. (Doesn't factor Goku coming back to life, and therefore wants a rematch) Also, could this portion be moved to a new thread like "Would Resurrection of Cell be a better movie than RoF" or no need to? I fell like it'll throw off the discussion about Cell and Kaioken. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 21, 2016 22:10:50 GMT
It is in Kai. Had a picture showing the (missed) edits of "Spirit Bombs" in Kai but the picture got corrupted Was Cell thinking like Vegeta where he wanted a challenge? If so, then Cell purposely handicapped himself against SS2 Gohan. Maybe during the beam struggle, he thought he had enough power but the surprise attack from Vegeta distracted him and didn't have enough time to shout Kaioken. Side note, Cell was the perfect... pun intended... candidate to have his own movie instead of Frieza. He recalls his fight with Gohan and starts implementing Kaioken and unlocks his version of a God transformation (his TRUE Perfect Form) and returns to fight Goku, pissed that Goku came back to life. Yeah I remember hearing Cell saying that in kai when he was Imperfect fightung against Piccolo in Ginger Town. Once Piccolo regrew his arm and was about to reengage Imperfect Cell, Krillin and Trunks arrive and question Cell. And That when Cell reveals he knew both the spirit bomb and kaioken techniques. If I could somehow find that fight again on youtube, I'll post the URL. As for Cell not using that technique agai st SSJ2 Gohan, the reason will never be known. Just by using the kaioken X 4 in his Super Perfect form, Cell would have power slightly below SSJ3 Goku, which is comparable to Fat Buu or Kid Buu. Cell is truly a powerhouse no matter how you look at with the kaioken ability lol. And yes I agree with Cell being a perfect candidate with his own DB movie. Having discovered his unique god / golden form, Cell takes revenge while also possessing kaioken! God that movie will be epic. "Not just the kamehameha, I also know the kaio ken and the spirit bomb" Krillin: "what, this guy knows Goku's moves" So yeah something like that. Wonder if there's a good manga page to use instead? Maybe it was a mistake for AT to say Cell knows Kaioken so he just "forgot" it so Gohan could kill Cell, otherwise he'd have to develop an actual reason Cell lost. Lol. Except that logic could be disproven easily with every other technique at Cell's disposal. That would be epic, especially cuz Future Trunks is back now. "Didn't I kill Trunks twice already?" "Wait, how is that even possibl-" Both Cell and Trunks: "Multiverse theory is a bitch." Edit: Back to Kaioken, is it cuz Cell's body was synthesized rather than being born that he couldn't use Kaioken? King Kai taught it to those who were born, right? Maybe the restriction was "could not be used if body was swapped or faked creation" |
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 21, 2016 22:49:39 GMT
Yeah I remember hearing Cell saying that in kai when he was Imperfect fightung against Piccolo in Ginger Town. Once Piccolo regrew his arm and was about to reengage Imperfect Cell, Krillin and Trunks arrive and question Cell. And That when Cell reveals he knew both the spirit bomb and kaioken techniques. If I could somehow find that fight again on youtube, I'll post the URL. As for Cell not using that technique agai st SSJ2 Gohan, the reason will never be known. Just by using the kaioken X 4 in his Super Perfect form, Cell would have power slightly below SSJ3 Goku, which is comparable to Fat Buu or Kid Buu. Cell is truly a powerhouse no matter how you look at with the kaioken ability lol. And yes I agree with Cell being a perfect candidate with his own DB movie. Having discovered his unique god / golden form, Cell takes revenge while also possessing kaioken! God that movie will be epic. "Not just the kamehameha, I also know the kaio ken and the spirit bomb" Krillin: "what, this guy knows Goku's moves" So yeah something like that. Wonder if there's a good manga page to use instead? Maybe it was a mistake for AT to say Cell knows Kaioken so he just "forgot" it so Gohan could kill Cell, otherwise he'd have to develop an actual reason Cell lost. Lol. Except that logic could be disproven easily with every other technique at Cell's disposal. That would be epic, especially cuz Future Trunks is back now. "Didn't I kill Trunks twice already?" "Wait, how is that even possibl-" Both Cell and Trunks: "Multiverse theory is a bitch." Edit: Back to Kaioken, is it cuz Cell's body was synthesized rather than being born that he couldn't use Kaioken? King Kai taught it to those who were born, right? Maybe the restriction was "could not be used if body was swapped or faked creation" I agree with you that the dubbing for kai (not Akira Toriyama since he didn't write the script for funimation) shouldn't have said that Cell knows the kaioken, since we would need a hard explanation on why Cell never used it against Vegeta or Gohan. It creates a significant plot hole since Cell was technically still stronger than any of the stronger saiyans just by using the kaioken alone. As for Cell himself not using the kaioken, I believe that once becoming Semi-Perfect and Perfect, his base power level was simply too high to even use the low-level multipliers for kaioken. However thanks to the introduction of "Super Saiyan Blue: Kaioken" in Super, my theory wouldn't make any sense since Goku was still able to use the kaioken while being WAY stronger. Perhaps you need a kai to teach it to you after all (the same principle that Saucemonkey's "Piccolo's Choice" AU makes), but again we will never truly know lol. Either way, Cell using the kaioken would be badass no matter what. Yes, I can see Perfect Cell using Multi-form and using a specific kaioken multiplier to battle against Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan in a epic 4-4 battle. |
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 21, 2016 22:53:50 GMT
"Not just the kamehameha, I also know the kaio ken and the spirit bomb" Krillin: "what, this guy knows Goku's moves" So yeah something like that. Wonder if there's a good manga page to use instead? Maybe it was a mistake for AT to say Cell knows Kaioken so he just "forgot" it so Gohan could kill Cell, otherwise he'd have to develop an actual reason Cell lost. Lol. Except that logic could be disproven easily with every other technique at Cell's disposal. Edit: Back to Kaioken, is it cuz Cell's body was synthesized rather than being born that he couldn't use Kaioken? King Kai taught it to those who were born, right? Maybe the restriction was "could not be used if body was swapped or faked creation" I looked in the manga, and this was all I could find: So, Spirit Bomb's confirmed, but not Kaioken. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 21, 2016 23:01:30 GMT
"Not just the kamehameha, I also know the kaio ken and the spirit bomb" Krillin: "what, this guy knows Goku's moves" So yeah something like that. Wonder if there's a good manga page to use instead? Maybe it was a mistake for AT to say Cell knows Kaioken so he just "forgot" it so Gohan could kill Cell, otherwise he'd have to develop an actual reason Cell lost. Lol. Except that logic could be disproven easily with every other technique at Cell's disposal. That would be epic, especially cuz Future Trunks is back now. "Didn't I kill Trunks twice already?" "Wait, how is that even possibl-" Both Cell and Trunks: "Multiverse theory is a bitch." Edit: Back to Kaioken, is it cuz Cell's body was synthesized rather than being born that he couldn't use Kaioken? King Kai taught it to those who were born, right? Maybe the restriction was "could not be used if body was swapped or faked creation" I agree with you that the dubbing for kai (not Akira Toriyama since he didn't write the script for funimation) shouldn't have said that Cell knows the kaioken, since we would need a hard explanation on why Cell never used it against Vegeta or Gohan. It creates a significant plot hole since Cell was technically still stronger than any of the stronger saiyans just by using the kaioken alone. As for Cell himself not using the kaioken, I believe that once becoming Semi-Perfect and Perfect, his base power level was simply too high to even use the low-level multipliers for kaioken. However thanks to the introduction of "Super Saiyan Blue: Kaioken" in Super, my theory wouldn't make any sense since Goku was still able to use the kaioken while being WAY stronger. Perhaps you need a kai to teach it to you after all (the same principle that Saucemonkey's "Piccolo's Choice" AU makes), but again we will never truly know lol. Either way, Cell using the kaioken would be badass no matter what. Yes, I can see Perfect Cell using Multi-form and using a specific kaioken multiplier to battle against Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan in a epic 4-4 battle. Whoops, my bad for mixing the two like that. But yeah I should've said it this way: What else did AT say about Cell that made Cell the "copycat?" (basically what other attacks did Cell have) But if Cell knows Frieza's discs and death beam, it would stand to reason Cell still has access to Kaioken. So it doesn't matter about Funimation's script in that sense. Bold part: What? Kaioken X2 is a low-level multiplier but effectively doubles the user's power. Care to explain what you mean by this part of the bolded sentence? Cell: Multi-Form! Now I've created three other Cells. Now use Kaioken X4! |
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 21, 2016 23:01:41 GMT
"Not just the kamehameha, I also know the kaio ken and the spirit bomb" Krillin: "what, this guy knows Goku's moves" So yeah something like that. Wonder if there's a good manga page to use instead? Maybe it was a mistake for AT to say Cell knows Kaioken so he just "forgot" it so Gohan could kill Cell, otherwise he'd have to develop an actual reason Cell lost. Lol. Except that logic could be disproven easily with every other technique at Cell's disposal. Edit: Back to Kaioken, is it cuz Cell's body was synthesized rather than being born that he couldn't use Kaioken? King Kai taught it to those who were born, right? Maybe the restriction was "could not be used if body was swapped or faked creation" I looked in the manga, and this was all I could find: So, Spirit Bomb's confirmed, but not Kaioken. Well he did say he could use more than the kamehameha so he could technically know Kaioken possibly but I think he'd be a little op which would be ok, since it'd suck to see Cell lose so soon. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 21, 2016 23:08:34 GMT
"Not just the kamehameha, I also know the kaio ken and the spirit bomb" Krillin: "what, this guy knows Goku's moves" So yeah something like that. Wonder if there's a good manga page to use instead? Maybe it was a mistake for AT to say Cell knows Kaioken so he just "forgot" it so Gohan could kill Cell, otherwise he'd have to develop an actual reason Cell lost. Lol. Except that logic could be disproven easily with every other technique at Cell's disposal. Edit: Back to Kaioken, is it cuz Cell's body was synthesized rather than being born that he couldn't use Kaioken? King Kai taught it to those who were born, right? Maybe the restriction was "could not be used if body was swapped or faked creation" I looked in the manga, and this was all I could find: So, Spirit Bomb's confirmed, but not Kaioken. Mentioned in my response to Gotenks I mixed Funimation script and the manga by mistake. Before I make a fool of myself... ah whatever, Imma ask it. Isn't the manga supposed to be read right to left or was the image flipped and someone typed the dialogue in the new space? Cell did know the Kienzan and Death beam (or were those just added in the Kai anime for a full length episode? ) so it makes sense if he does know Kaioken. Not sure why he didn't use it though. But Spirit bomb... so is Cell pure evil, pure unadulterated badass, or pure unadulterated ego? Pure of heart to use the technique right? Where does Cell stand for that matter? |
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 21, 2016 23:22:44 GMT
Isn't the manga supposed to be read right to left or was the image flipped and someone typed the dialogue in the new space? Cell did know the Kienzan and Death beam (or were those just added in the Kai anime for a full length episode? ) so it makes sense if he does know Kaioken. Not sure why he didn't use it though. But Spirit bomb... so is Cell pure evil, pure unadulterated badass, or pure unadulterated ego? Pure of heart to use the technique right? Where does Cell stand for that matter? It was originally right to left, but the image has been flipped to help us English readers.  I would say that Cell does know the Kaioken. For the longest time the common fan explanation was that, at the Super Saiyan level and beyond, the Kaioken becomes dangerous to use. But then again, Cell's power has always been strange. He has a Super Saiyan's aura, but he's not really transforming...which makes his strength in DBM even harder to figure out. Spirit Bomb mechanics are troublesome. I imagine "pure of heart" to be a balanced heart with no evil, but Toriyama's never really said as far as I know. I think purity of heart only lets you redirect the bomb easily. If you were impure, you'd have to use brute force to stop it or change its direction, which is what I think Kid Buu did. Xeno Black You got those numbers from the Daizenshuu, right? You should take a looksie at the Power Levels Thread, which discusses those numbers. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 21, 2016 23:44:53 GMT
Isn't the manga supposed to be read right to left or was the image flipped and someone typed the dialogue in the new space? Cell did know the Kienzan and Death beam (or were those just added in the Kai anime for a full length episode? ) so it makes sense if he does know Kaioken. Not sure why he didn't use it though. But Spirit bomb... so is Cell pure evil, pure unadulterated badass, or pure unadulterated ego? Pure of heart to use the technique right? Where does Cell stand for that matter? It was originally right to left, but the image has been flipped to help us English readers. I would say that Cell does know the Kaioken. For the longest time the common fan explanation was that, at the Super Saiyan level and beyond, the Kaioken becomes dangerous to use. But then again, Cell's power has always been strange. He has a Super Saiyan's aura, but he's not really transforming...which makes his strength in DBM even harder to figure out. Spirit Bomb mechanics are troublesome. I imagine "pure of heart" to be a balanced heart with no evil, but Toriyama's never really said as far as I know. I think purity of heart only lets you redirect the bomb easily. If you were impure, you'd have to use brute force to stop it or change its direction, which is what I think Kid Buu did. Xeno Black You got those numbers from the Daizenshuu, right? You should take a looksie at the Power Levels Thread, which discusses those numbers. Wait so what's with the super's manga page? I must question every inconsistency!!! (Lol) Spoiler to shorten post. So he has the strength of a super saiyan, but isn't transformed into one... So just like Saiyan beyond God or like this bs explanation of why Goku didn't go Super saiyan in hell?: dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Power (I know it's filler but this scene feels cringe worthy of the notion tap into super saiyan power while in base.) Maybe Cell's form is like Mystic Gohan. The power is there but he doesn't physically change.... not that he had hair to begin with. For the pure of heart section: I know Android 13 movie wasn't canon Buuuut: Goku had to be pure of heart to unlock the Super Saiyan form, yet he's considered impure heart when he used the Spirit bomb in the movie. How's is that contradiction possible? |
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 21, 2016 23:59:37 GMT
So he has the strength of a super saiyan, but isn't transformed into one... So just like Saiyan beyond God or like this bs explanation of why Goku didn't go Super saiyan in hell?:
dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Power (I know it's filler but this scene feels cringe worthy of the notion tap into super saiyan power while in base.) Maybe Cell's form is like Mystic Gohan. The power is there but he doesn't physically change.... not that he had hair to begin with. For the pure of heart section: I know Android 13 movie wasn't canon Buuuut: Goku had to be pure of heart to unlock the Super Saiyan form, yet he's considered impure heart when he used the Spirit bomb in the movie. How's is that contradiction possible? Wow, I'd never heard of that Super Saiyan Power thing. Huh. Interesting idea. As for the Android 13 Spirit Bomb... Transforming into a Super Saiyan magnifies the person's anger, so even if a person's normally pure-hearted, they won't be when they're transformed if they haven't practiced. Goku, by the time of the Super Android 13 movie, was still getting used to the Super Saiyan form and therefore wasn't pure of heart. Goku and Gohan mastered the form in the HTC and figured out how to stay calm. (Which is why, if you look at their eyes during the times of rest before the Cell Games, they're round instead of angular.) By the time of the Buu saga, Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form and could use a Spirit Bomb as a Super Saiyan, which is how he beat Kid Buu. It looks like Goten and Trunks also got the calm Super Saiyan state, though they still hadn't mastered it. Going SS2 apparently starts the process over again, if Gohan's any example; he definitely wasn't pure of heart against Cell. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 22, 2016 0:14:35 GMT
So he has the strength of a super saiyan, but isn't transformed into one... So just like Saiyan beyond God or like this bs explanation of why Goku didn't go Super saiyan in hell?:
dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Power (I know it's filler but this scene feels cringe worthy of the notion tap into super saiyan power while in base.) Maybe Cell's form is like Mystic Gohan. The power is there but he doesn't physically change.... not that he had hair to begin with. For the pure of heart section: I know Android 13 movie wasn't canon Buuuut: Goku had to be pure of heart to unlock the Super Saiyan form, yet he's considered impure heart when he used the Spirit bomb in the movie. How's is that contradiction possible? Wow, I'd never heard of that Super Saiyan Power thing. Huh. Interesting idea. As for the Android 13 Spirit Bomb... Transforming into a Super Saiyan magnifies the person's anger, so even if a person's normally pure-hearted, they won't be when they're transformed if they haven't practiced. Goku, by the time of the Super Android 13 movie, was still getting used to the Super Saiyan form and therefore wasn't pure of heart. Goku and Gohan mastered the form in the HTC and figured out how to stay calm, which why, if you look at their eyes during the times of rest before the Cell Games, they're round instead of angular. By the time of the Buu saga, Goku had mastered the Super Saiyan form and could use a Spirit Bomb as a Super Saiyan, which is how he beat Kid Buu. It looks like Goten and Trunks also got the calm Super Saiyan state, though they still hadn't mastered it. Going SS2 apparently starts the process over again, if Gohan's any example; he definitely wasn't pure of heart against Cell. Super Saiyan Power was just recently created on that wiki. I always thought it was just a flaw in the coloring for that fight(s). Of course this is a wikia, just as reliable as calling Trunk's new form "Super Trunks" (That was grade 2 and 3. Now it's reused for this new form. LAME!!!) Oh crap, "Saiyan, pure of heart and awoken by fury(anger)" keyword awoken. Forgot about that. As for Super Saiyan using Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu...  I'd have thought Gohan's SS2 form was a level of rage beyond what he could've controlled at the time, not necessarily reset pure of heart status. So like adding more volume to a beaker in a preset amount of water instead of dumping the water and pouring a new amount. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 23, 2016 4:39:36 GMT
I agree with you that the dubbing for kai (not Akira Toriyama since he didn't write the script for funimation) shouldn't have said that Cell knows the kaioken, since we would need a hard explanation on why Cell never used it against Vegeta or Gohan. It creates a significant plot hole since Cell was technically still stronger than any of the stronger saiyans just by using the kaioken alone. As for Cell himself not using the kaioken, I believe that once becoming Semi-Perfect and Perfect, his base power level was simply too high to even use the low-level multipliers for kaioken. However thanks to the introduction of "Super Saiyan Blue: Kaioken" in Super, my theory wouldn't make any sense since Goku was still able to use the kaioken while being WAY stronger. Perhaps you need a kai to teach it to you after all (the same principle that Saucemonkey's "Piccolo's Choice" AU makes), but again we will never truly know lol. Either way, Cell using the kaioken would be badass no matter what. Yes, I can see Perfect Cell using Multi-form and using a specific kaioken multiplier to battle against Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan in a epic 4-4 battle. Whoops, my bad for mixing the two like that. But yeah I should've said it this way: What else did AT say about Cell that made Cell the "copycat?" (basically what other attacks did Cell have) But if Cell knows Frieza's discs and death beam, it would stand to reason Cell still has access to Kaioken. So it doesn't matter about Funimation's script in that sense. Bold part: What? Kaioken X2 is a low-level multiplier but effectively doubles the user's power. Care to explain what you mean by this part of the bolded sentence? Cell: Multi-Form! Now I've created three other Cells. Now use Kaioken X4! Yeah Cell most likely still has access to the kaioken, but him never using it once (like him trying it out against ASSJ Vegeta while still Semi-perfect would have been a perfect occasion, pun intended lol) creates a significant plot hole that needs to be addressed. As for the bold sentence, it was simply a theory on why Cell may have never used the kaioken. It was partly inspired by "Bringer of Death" since Goku has a harder time using the kaioken the stronger he becomes (btw, read that story on fanfiction.net when you have the chance, it good), so I thought maybe that reasoning could also be applied to Cell. But alas, DB Super debunked that argument lol. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 23, 2016 4:43:45 GMT
Isn't the manga supposed to be read right to left or was the image flipped and someone typed the dialogue in the new space? Cell did know the Kienzan and Death beam (or were those just added in the Kai anime for a full length episode? ) so it makes sense if he does know Kaioken. Not sure why he didn't use it though. But Spirit bomb... so is Cell pure evil, pure unadulterated badass, or pure unadulterated ego? Pure of heart to use the technique right? Where does Cell stand for that matter? It was originally right to left, but the image has been flipped to help us English readers. I would say that Cell does know the Kaioken. For the longest time the common fan explanation was that, at the Super Saiyan level and beyond, the Kaioken becomes dangerous to use. But then again, Cell's power has always been strange. He has a Super Saiyan's aura, but he's not really transforming...which makes his strength in DBM even harder to figure out. Spirit Bomb mechanics are troublesome. I imagine "pure of heart" to be a balanced heart with no evil, but Toriyama's never really said as far as I know. I think purity of heart only lets you redirect the bomb easily. If you were impure, you'd have to use brute force to stop it or change its direction, which is what I think Kid Buu did. Xeno Black You got those numbers from the Daizenshuu, right? You should take a looksie at the Power Levels Thread, which discusses those numbers. Yeah that sentence I said about Cell's power level being comparable to SSJ3 was inspired by the Daizenshuu numbers (since SSJ3 is 4 times stronger than SSJ2). Ill check out that thread you posted sooner or later. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 23, 2016 7:10:32 GMT
Whoops, my bad for mixing the two like that. But yeah I should've said it this way: What else did AT say about Cell that made Cell the "copycat?" (basically what other attacks did Cell have) But if Cell knows Frieza's discs and death beam, it would stand to reason Cell still has access to Kaioken. So it doesn't matter about Funimation's script in that sense. Bold part: What? Kaioken X2 is a low-level multiplier but effectively doubles the user's power. Care to explain what you mean by this part of the bolded sentence? Cell: Multi-Form! Now I've created three other Cells. Now use Kaioken X4! Yeah Cell most likely still has access to the kaioken, but him never using it once (like him trying it out against ASSJ Vegeta while still Semi-perfect would have been a perfect occasion, pun intended lol) creates a significant plot hole that needs to be addressed. As for the bold sentence, it was simply a theory on why Cell may have never used the kaioken. It was partly inspired by "Bringer of Death" since Goku has a harder time using the kaioken the stronger he becomes (btw, read that story on fanfiction.net when you have the chance, it good), so I thought maybe that reasoning could also be applied to Cell. But alas, DB Super debunked that argument lol. Kaio-WHAT is probably everyone's best answer or response. Or another plot hole while we're at it, why didn't Goku bother using the Spirit Bomb against Cell? Like at any point during the arc. Hope Salagir addresses Kaioken in the Vegeta vs Cell rematch. We can at least hear a reason why Cell doesn't use Kaioken. Bold part: Oh so if I got this right (before Introduction of Super) the higher powerlevel you have, the harder it is to use Kaioken even a lower multiplier? Then why was Goku so tired after a x3/x4 (this was before Oozaru part) but not as much when he did X20 on Namek? Just curious. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 23, 2016 19:17:32 GMT
Yeah Cell most likely still has access to the kaioken, but him never using it once (like him trying it out against ASSJ Vegeta while still Semi-perfect would have been a perfect occasion, pun intended lol) creates a significant plot hole that needs to be addressed. As for the bold sentence, it was simply a theory on why Cell may have never used the kaioken. It was partly inspired by "Bringer of Death" since Goku has a harder time using the kaioken the stronger he becomes (btw, read that story on fanfiction.net when you have the chance, it good), so I thought maybe that reasoning could also be applied to Cell. But alas, DB Super debunked that argument lol. Kaio-WHAT is probably everyone's best answer or response. Or another plot hole while we're at it, why didn't Goku bother using the Spirit Bomb against Cell? Like at any point during the arc. Hope Salagir addresses Kaioken in the Vegeta vs Cell rematch. We can at least hear a reason why Cell doesn't use Kaioken. Bold part: Oh so if I got this right (before Introduction of Super) the higher powerlevel you have, the harder it is to use Kaioken even a lower multiplier? Then why was Goku so tired after a x3/x4 (this was before Oozaru part) but not as much when he did X20 on Namek? Just curious. Goku probably didn't use the Spirit Bomb on Cell since he knew that Cell will know it's weaknesses (slow charge, needs a abundant energy source nearby, etc), or the fact Cell could cancel Goku's Spirit Bomb with his own. Just my hunch. I too hope salagir addresses the kaioken issue in the fourth found. It need to be explained thoroughly. That a very good question with the kaioken's efficiency during the saiyan and namek saga. I'll say personal preference honestly, since you really cant explain why it will work one way, but not in the other with the theory i posted lol. |
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 23, 2016 19:47:25 GMT
Kaio-WHAT is probably everyone's best answer or response. Or another plot hole while we're at it, why didn't Goku bother using the Spirit Bomb against Cell? Like at any point during the arc. Hope Salagir addresses Kaioken in the Vegeta vs Cell rematch. We can at least hear a reason why Cell doesn't use Kaioken. Well, if I remember correctly, when Vegeta proposes using the Spirit Bomb against Buu, Goku says something like "Why? It didn't work against Frieza." Goku might've figured that the Spirit Bomb he made on Namek was about as strong as a Spirit Bomb could get, and since it couldn't kill a limited Frieza, it wouldn't be any good against Cell. I think Goku was surprised that the Spirit Bomb he used against Buu could be so powerful. Huh...I thought it was that the stronger you are, the easier it is to maintain a Kaioken, and the farther up you can go. Goku almost killed himself using the x4 against Vegeta, but by the time he fought Frieza he was able to keep up a x10 for a long while and pull out a x20 as a last resort. This is complete headcanon, but I'd think the reason Goku stopped using it after Namek is not because he can't (that it'll kill him or something), but that Super Saiyan + Kaioken is probably impossible to control or use effectively. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 23, 2016 20:03:47 GMT
Kaio-WHAT is probably everyone's best answer or response. Or another plot hole while we're at it, why didn't Goku bother using the Spirit Bomb against Cell? Like at any point during the arc. Hope Salagir addresses Kaioken in the Vegeta vs Cell rematch. We can at least hear a reason why Cell doesn't use Kaioken. Bold part: Oh so if I got this right (before Introduction of Super) the higher powerlevel you have, the harder it is to use Kaioken even a lower multiplier? Then why was Goku so tired after a x3/x4 (this was before Oozaru part) but not as much when he did X20 on Namek? Just curious. Goku probably didn't use the Spirit Bomb on Cell since he knew that Cell will know it's weaknesses (slow charge, needs a abundant energy source nearby, etc), or the fact Cell could cancel Goku's Spirit Bomb with his own. Just my hunch. I too hope salagir addresses the kaioken issue in the fourth found. It need to be explained thoroughly. That a very good question with the kaioken's efficiency during the saiyan and namek saga. I'll say personal preference honestly, since you really cant explain why it will work one way, but not in the other with the theory i posted lol. Makankosappo. And Cell still used it. Quick charge may I add. I guess it depends on the attack and in the Spirit Bomb's case, how many people are willing to give their energy. Other than animators forgetting how tired Goku should've been, did Vegeta's fireball singe Goku and that was the cause of Goku being so tired? Idk at this point anymore. We saw in Super that Kaioken while in Blue took a major toll on Goku's body so I guess it depends on how much Ki was being outputted. Saiyan saga: rookie learning Kaioken so that's a slide. But Namek Saga Goku was a bit more proficient in his attacks and for sure he had much better Ki control while training in 100x grav. Super... well he had SSB at the same time and even then it was a 10% chance it. King Kai said Goku was using his Ki recklessly so I guess it's the Ki output that screwed up the body and it depends how much control you have over it in the base level. (in super's case, the Blue would be considered base.) |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 23, 2016 20:16:09 GMT
Kaio-WHAT is probably everyone's best answer or response. Or another plot hole while we're at it, why didn't Goku bother using the Spirit Bomb against Cell? Like at any point during the arc. Hope Salagir addresses Kaioken in the Vegeta vs Cell rematch. We can at least hear a reason why Cell doesn't use Kaioken. Well, if I remember correctly, when Vegeta proposes using the Spirit Bomb against Buu, Goku says something like "Why? It didn't work against Frieza." Goku might've figured that the Spirit Bomb he made on Namek was about as strong as a Spirit Bomb could get, and since it couldn't kill a limited Frieza, it wouldn't be any good against Cell. I think Goku was surprised that the Spirit Bomb he used against Buu coudl be so powerful. Huh...I thought it was that the stronger you are, the easier it is to maintain a Kaioken, and the farther up you can go. Goku almost killed himself using the x4 against Vegeta, but by the time he fought Frieza he was able to keep up a x10 for a long while and pull out a x20 as a last resort. This is complete headcanon, but I'd think the reason Goku stopped using it after Namek is not because he can't (that it'll kill him or something), but that Super Saiyan + Kaioken is probably impossible to control or use effectively. The spirit Bomb on Namek was only that strong cuz the inhabitants had a sudden case of death... Goku didn't think of the Spirit bomb getting stronger than the one on Namek... it goes back to my first line, there wasn't enough living beings on the planet. He even said "but this planet barely has energy as it is" or something like that. Oh well. I guess Spirit bombs are only used on real threats XD I thought that too but I was trying to understand Gotenks' and the fanfictions' theory about Kaioken. Wait, when did Goku use Kx10? Thought he said " if i can pull a kaioken x 20 I at least stand a chance" so he jumped straight to 20? Said in Super that normal Super saiyan forms were too much rage induced to keep a calm mind for Kaioken. ignoring other world tournament, in Super, Blue form is focused on Ki control, which could've improved control over kaioken. |
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