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Post by Ashanark on Oct 7, 2016 18:15:41 GMT
Here it is, a place to go crazy with your power level lists and debate who's stronger than who. Modifiers, numbers, whatever you want! You get bonus points if you can use the manga to back up your argument. Common topics of discussion: 1. Arrange Buu's forms in order of power. While you're at it, is Super Buu stronger, or Kid Buu? (I say Super Buu.) 2. Is Dabura as strong as regular Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell? Was Gohan SS1 or SS2 fighting him? (I say normal Perfect Cell, and SS1) 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight? 5. The Daizenshuu's power levels. The topic I want to start off with is the Daizenshuu's numbers for Super Saiyan transformations. It's not long, but I'll spoiler it anyway. The Daizenshuu guides were made after Dragon Ball finished, and are a bit like an encyclopedia for the series. Though not made by Akira Toriyama, they did have his approval. Therefore, many people take what they find in the Daizenshuu as Dragon Ball law. However, there are many places where I think what the Daizenshuu says and what we actually see happen doesn't match up. Case in point: the Super Saiyan modifiers.
According to the Daizenshuu, SS1 is a 50x multiplier over base. SS2 is double a Super Saiyan. SS3 is four times a SS2.
I really do not like these numbers. The only one that seems reasonable to me is Super Saiyan 1 being a 50x increase. Both SS2 and SS3 feel entirely wrong, and I'll tell you why.
DISCLAIMER: I don't like using numbers to determine power levels. It gets ridiculous. I instead prefer relative power levels--comparing somebody to somebody else.
To see how strong Super Saiyan 2 is, let's look at the Cell Saga: --Original SS Goku < Android 18 < Android 16 << Semi-Perfect Cell << Ascended Vegeta << Perfect Cell << Perfect Cell at max << SS2 Gohan. There's no way that's only a double increase in power from beginning to end.
Now let's look at Buu saga: --SS2 Teen Gohan < SS2 Goku/Vegeta << Kid Buu/SS3 Goku.
Gohan, as a SS2, could 1-shot a Cell Junior. Each Cell Jr. was as strong as Perfect Cell was when he fought Goku. So Goku at max ~ Perfect Cell = Cell Junior. And Gohan could 1-hit kill them. Goku, as a SS3, was about equal to Kid Buu. Kid Buu could beat the everliving crud out of SS2 Vegeta, but couldn't one-shot him. Despite Buu's efforts, Vegeta survived.
The point I'm trying to make here is that SS3 can't be a larger modifier than SS2, because the gap between original SS2 and SS3 is nowhere near as big as the gap between original SS1 and SS2. To me, the Law of Diminishing Returns hits SS3 very hard.
So: SS1 is a larger modifier than SS2, which is a larger modifier than SS3. SS3 can be a 4x modifier, but only if SS2 is a comparatively larger jump, like X10 or something.
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Post by Android 13 on Oct 7, 2016 18:33:09 GMT
Here it is, a place to go crazy with your power level lists and debate who's stronger than who. Modifiers, numbers, whatever you want! You get bonus points if you can use the manga to back up your argument. Common topics of discussion: 1. Arrange Buu's forms in order of power. While you're at it, is Super Buu stronger, or Kid Buu? (I say Super Buu.) 2. Is Dabura as strong as regular Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell? Was Gohan SS1 or SS2 fighting him? (I say normal Perfect Cell, and SS1) 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight? 5. The Daizenshuu's power levels. The topic I want to start off with is the Daizenshuu's numbers for Super Saiyan transformations. It's not long, but I'll spoiler it anyway. The Daizenshuu guides were made after Dragon Ball finished, and are a bit like an encyclopedia for the series. Though not made by Akira Toriyama, they did have his approval. Therefore, many people take what they find in the Daizenshuu as Dragon Ball law. However, there are many places where I think what the Daizenshuu says and what we actually see happen doesn't match up. Case in point: the Super Saiyan modifiers.
According to the Daizenshuu, SS1 is a 50x multiplier over base. SS2 is x2. SS3 is x4.
I really do not like these numbers. The only one that seems reasonable to me is Super Saiyan 1 being a 50x increase. Both SS2 and SS3 feel entirely wrong, and I'll tell you why.
DISCLAIMER: I don't like using numbers to determine power levels. It gets ridiculous. I instead prefer relative power levels--comparing somebody to somebody else.
To see how strong Super Saiyan 2 is, let's look at the Cell Saga: --Original SS Goku < Android 18 < Android 16 << Semi-Perfect Cell << Ascended Vegeta << Perfect Cell << Perfect Cell at max << SS2 Gohan.
There's no way that's only a double increase in power from beginning to end.
Now let's look at Buu saga: --SS2 Teen Gohan < SS2 Goku/Vegeta << Kid Buu/SS3 Goku.
Gohan, as a SS2, could 1-shot a Cell Junior. Each Cell Jr. was as strong as Perfect Cell was when he fought Goku. So Goku at max ~ Perfect Cell = Cell Junior. And Gohan could 1-hit kill them. Goku, as a SS3, was about equal to Kid Buu. Kid Buu could beat the everliving crud out of SS2 Vegeta, but couldn't one-shot him. Despite Buu's efforts, Vegeta survived.
The point I'm trying to make here is that SS3 can't be a larger modifier than SS2, because the gap between original SS2 and SS3 is nowhere near as big as the gap between original SS1 and SS2. To me, the Law of Diminishing Returns hits SS3 very hard.
So: SS1 is a larger modifier than SS2, which is a larger modifier than SS3. SS3 can be a 4x modifier, but only if SS2 is a comparatively larger jump, like X10 or something.
I guess this is where I start debating from.First, I would like to hear your opinion on why Gohan fought Dabura as a SSJ1?For the other points I agree, I may do my own scaling of the Movie characters later, and multipliers are very irrelevant in my opinion.As you say, the gap between SSJ Goku from Namek or from the battle with Androids 20 and 19 and Full Power Perfect Cell if you will is way too huge, so the only way I see it as a times 2 is that it's from Mastered/Full Power Super Saiyan.Even then it should be at least 3 or 4, seeing how Cell powered-up twice, and was still no match for SSJ2 Gohan, then he got a huge zenkai, his aura gained electricity like Gohan and was still arguably weaker than him (I throw the "weaker" because Gohan wasted some energy during their first battle, and on top of that got hit hard by Cell when he protected Vegeta).As for SSJ3, it's difficult to tell, we saw SSJ2 Gohan and Supreme Kai getting battered by Buu, who barely lifted fingers, and later on we saw Majin Vegeta vs Buu which was the same bloodbath, but when Goku turned SSJ3, he was equal to him, and he later stated he could have won against Buu.It could be x2, x3 or x4 for SSJ3, we just don't have enough info.Also, Daizenshuu holds no authority nor does it give reliable information, at least that's what I think.By the way, Mystic/Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Goku debate should have ended the moment Goku stated he and Vegeta have no chance against Super Buu.
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Post by Android 13 on Oct 7, 2016 18:51:59 GMT
Hey, finally. Someone had the balls to do it Might as well get my 2 cents in here
1. I say Kid Buu < Majin Buu < Super Buu < Super Buu (absorptions) in terms of raw power.
Majin Buu < Super Buu < Kid Buu in terms of destructive force.
I feel as though Kid Buu absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai definitely gave him a power increase, but heavily restricted his destructive nature. Kid Buu, being completely pure and free of power ups from absorptions, is definitely the weakest but the most dangerous as unlike the others, he is completely unrestricted evil and as a result is more destructive. This is evident by how willing he was to destroy the Earth without a moment's hesitation while Majin Buu and Super Buu would rather fight. I also believe that a majority of the time (at least until fighting Mystic Gohan) Buu was holding back, much like Goku has "a bad habit" of doing all the time.
2. Regular perfect and Super Saiyan 2. It was stated Gohan had gotten weaker throughout the years, so if he was anywhere near as strong as Perfect Cell, he wouldn't have been able to keep up with him as a regular Super Saiyan.
3. Mystic Gohan is stronger, he was effortlessly destroying Super Buu until he absorbed a Super Saiyan 3 fused character and a double-fused Namekian. I don't think Goku would have been able to do this as a Super Saiyan 3.
4. I don't think this is a hard one honestly, just have to watch the movies and judge based on what you see. For example, Janemba could probably defeat Bojack
5. Don'r really know enough about their power levels to argue them, but great point(s) in the spoiler tab. (Is it tab or tag? I keep seeing both used xD) I agree with everything, but I think in a fight, Kid Buu would win against Fat Buu pre-split.That Buu just casually destroyed cities and in a fight, he used full force only when necessary (I think he found SSJ3 Goku seriously), but Kid Buu used a lot more power than Fat Buu had/was willing to use in his fight with Goku on the Sacred World of the Kais.In my opinion, Kid Buu was very strong, but nowhere near Super Buu.As for the movies, Janemba will destroy Bojack without sword/dimensional portals/teleportation, his raw power is more than enough to obliterate Bojack, even Base Janemba, if it's the form you are talking about, would still destroy Bojack.Here is how I place the villains: Garlic Jr.<Dr.Wheelo<Base Power-Restricted Broly<Turles<Lord Slug*<Base Cooler<SSJ Azure/Restricted Broly<Great Namek Lord Slug<Final Form Cooler<Meta Cooler<Android 13<Super Android 13≤SSJ Broly*≤Base Power Bojack<Full Power Bojack≤Second Movie SSJ Broly<LSSJ Broly<Base Janemba<Second Movie LSSJ Broly<Super Janemba< and Hirudegarn I guess, he shrek'd Ultimate Gohan but fell to the Dragon Fist, Movie 13 doesn't make a lot of sense, but it was awesome nevertheless.Sorry if I missed anything. *both fell to the Spirit Bomb, but I see Lord Slug as slightly stronger,as far as SSJ Broly, we only saw him tanking 2 attacks, but the fact that he didn't even notice them puts him at a very high level, maybe stronger than the non-moving/flinching Super Android 13.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 8, 2016 13:35:52 GMT
Kid Buu>Buff Buu>Super Buu>Evil Buu>Good Buu
Buu was getting stronger when he went from Super to Kid. They did not say otherwise when he went to Kid buu. All they did was insult his size. Also Goku always calls out when a Villain is getting weaker. He did it to Frieza (Golden and Buff) Cell when he lost 18 and went to second and Super buu when they took their friends.
Perfect cell. Dabura isn't really all that. Goku said they would probably be afraid if him 7 years ago.
Ssj3 Goku. Comicvine already discuss this and provided an interview saying Ssj3 Goku is the strongest. I will post the link.
Daizenshuu power levels? You mean Kanzenshuu right? Either way need to be fixed.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 8, 2016 16:11:23 GMT
Kid Buu>Buff Buu>Super Buu>Evil Buu>Good Buu Buu was getting stronger when he went from Super to Kid. They did not say otherwise when he went to Kid buu. All they did was insult his size. Also Goku always calls out when a Villain is getting weaker. He did it to Frieza (Golden and Buff) Cell when he lost 18 and went to second and Super buu when they took their friends. [...] Ssj3 Goku. Comicvine already discuss this and provided an interview saying Ssj3 Goku is the strongest. I will post the link. Daizenshuu power levels? You mean Kanzenshuu right? Either way need to be fixed. Daizenshuu is the guides, Kanzenshuu is a website. To be fair, Kanzenshuu was originally called Daizenshuu EX. This is the manga page you're referring to when you say Super Buu got stronger transforming into Kid: However, if you look at Goku squaring up to fight Kid Buu, he's perfectly confident: Compare to his panic when Vegeta says they should fight Super Buu: Goku wouldn't seriously fight Super Buu without fusion. For Kid Buu, he figures he can go at it alone.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 8, 2016 17:10:27 GMT
Kid Buu>Buff Buu>Super Buu>Evil Buu>Good Buu
Buu was getting stronger when he went from Super to Kid. They did not say otherwise when he went to Kid buu. All they did was insult his size. Also Goku always calls out when a Villain is getting weaker. He did it to Frieza (Golden and Buff) Cell when he lost 18 and went to second and Super buu when they took their friends.Perfect cell. Dabura isn't really all that. Goku said they would probably be afraid if him 7 years ago. Ssj3 Goku. Comicvine already discuss this and provided an interview saying Ssj3 Goku is the strongest. I will post the link. Daizenshuu power levels? You mean Kanzenshuu right? Either way need to be fixed. Is this sort of flawed thinking actually popular with DBZ fans? Yeah, great idea, grant a magical being the ability to absorb people.... only to become weaker. Sounds totally legit. Real tier goes like this (and this is pretty much non-debatable now, baring "Buff Buu": Buuhan>Buutenks>Buucolo(with kids unfused)>Super Buu/Original Fat Fuu(yet the original Fat Buu can't access his whole power>Kid Buu/Evil Buu>'Good' Fat Buu. The only I'm not sure where to place is Buff Buu. They said he was becoming stronger when going buff, but this doesn't make any sense to me as Super Buu has 2 absorbees and Buff Buu only has 1. He should by default be weaker. Kid Buu is dangerous not due to his power, but his unpredictable behavior.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 8, 2016 17:23:07 GMT
Is this sort of flawed thinking actually popular with DBZ fans? Yeah, great idea, grant a magical being the ability to absorb people.... only to become weaker. Sounds totally legit. [...] The only I'm not sure where to place is Buff Buu. They said he was becoming stronger when going buff, but this doesn't make any sense to me as Super Buu has 2 absorbees and Buff Buu only has 1. He should by default be weaker. Kid Buu is dangerous not due to his power, but his unpredictable behavior. The Funimation dub takes out or messes up many of the lines that indicate Super Buu > Kid Buu and that Gohan > Goku. It's hard for people who've only watched the dub to unscramble the PLs properly, because they're going off of bad information. If you look up any English dub of Super Buu vs. anyone on YouTube, you'll see people arguing Kid Buu is stronger because of those messed up lines. I always thought Super/Gohan were stronger than Kid/Goku, but it was only when I read through the manga that I could support it. Yeah, Buff Buu is a problem. I agree he should be weaker than Super Buu because he hadn't gotten Dai Kaioshin yet. I vote that either a) Toriyama messed up, b) Goku/Vegeta were wrong, or c) as Buu regressed he burned himself out--he gave one last huge spike of energy before it all went away.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 8, 2016 20:41:02 GMT
Q 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight?
A 3. It comes down to experience I guess. Mystic Gohan may have raw power (potential) but since his desire to fight isn't as great as Goku's, I guess he wouldn't really know how to use it. => Mystic Gohan > SS3 Goku but Goku would have more experience to win.
4. Ooh boy this gonna be tricky. I wouldn't consider anything before Cooler's first movie appearance. Those guys were weaker than SS Goku (on Namek, not Cooler version where he was probably untrained.)
Biggest one I was gonna go for was Broly (movie 8) vs Bojack. But then I remembered that Bojack movie had SS2 Gohan beat him, not Goku.
Broly (Zenkai) > Bio Broly because Bio Broly was like Botamo, tricky to beat but not necessarily powerful. Also he was a corroding acidic monster.
Only one left I got is Janemba vs Hildegarn. That one is hard. It took a Fusion to beat a magical being as Janemba... in Hell. Hildegarn took a SS3 Dragon Fist so that would raise the question between the two movies, was Goku SS3 stronger than Gogeta SS?
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Post by Archon on Oct 8, 2016 20:55:40 GMT
Goku went up against Janemba's first form as SSJ3 and only had minor trouble but his second form was wiping the floor with him and if Vegeta hadn't saved him he would probably have died. So in terms of raw power Janemba 2nd form is higher than Hirudegarn. In terms of an actual fight though it's hard to say because of how hard it was to even hit Hildy. And Janemba wasn't exactly slow either. I'd probably say Janemba would win but he'd have a frustrating time of it for sure.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 8, 2016 22:45:28 GMT
Kid Buu>Buff Buu>Super Buu>Evil Buu>Good Buu Buu was getting stronger when he went from Super to Kid. They did not say otherwise when he went to Kid buu. All they did was insult his size. Also Goku always calls out when a Villain is getting weaker. He did it to Frieza (Golden and Buff) Cell when he lost 18 and went to second and Super buu when they took their friends. [...] Ssj3 Goku. Comicvine already discuss this and provided an interview saying Ssj3 Goku is the strongest. I will post the link. Daizenshuu power levels? You mean Kanzenshuu right? Either way need to be fixed. Daizenshuu is the guides, Kanzenshuu is a website. To be fair, Kanzenshuu was originally called Daizenshuu EX. This is the manga page you're referring to when you say Super Buu got stronger transforming into Kid: However, if you look at Goku squaring up to fight Kid Buu, he's perfectly confident: Compare to his panic when Vegeta says they should fight Super Buu: Goku wouldn't seriously fight Super Buu without fusion. For Kid Buu, he figures he can go at it alone. Woah there Bud. You make a thread and then degrade peoples opinions??? First off Goku was not specific whether or not he means him and Vegeta go at him at ssj3 and Ssj2 or go out as ssj. I doubt he was talking about the first one. Since Piccolo Ultimate Gohan,17 ,Kibito Kai ,Goten Trunks, 18, and Krillin gave their energy and still was not enough to take Kid buu down.
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 8, 2016 22:55:48 GMT
Daizenshuu is the guides, Kanzenshuu is a website. To be fair, Kanzenshuu was originally called Daizenshuu EX. This is the manga page you're referring to when you say Super Buu got stronger transforming into Kid: However, if you look at Goku squaring up to fight Kid Buu, he's perfectly confident: Compare to his panic when Vegeta says they should fight Super Buu: Goku wouldn't seriously fight Super Buu without fusion. For Kid Buu, he figures he can go at it alone. Woah there Bud. You make a thread and then degrade peoples opinions??? First off Goku was not specific whether or not he means him and Vegeta go at him at ssj3 and Ssj2 or go out as ssj. I doubt he was talking about the first one. Since Piccolo Ultimate Gohan,17 ,Kibito Kai ,Goten Trunks, 18, and Krillin gave their energy and still was not enough to take Kid buu down. He isn't degrading your post, he's correcting you.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 8, 2016 23:03:11 GMT
Woah there Bud. You make a thread and then degrade peoples opinions??? First off Goku was not specific whether or not he means him and Vegeta go at him at ssj3 and Ssj2 or go out as ssj. I doubt he was talking about the first one. Since Piccolo Ultimate Gohan,17 ,Kibito Kai ,Goten Trunks, 18, and Krillin gave their energy and still was not enough to take Kid buu down. Exactly which part looked like he was trying to degrade your opinion at all? He was simply providing a counter argument to what you said with official manga pages. Not sure if you're just overly sensitive or what but there's no way he was trying to degrade anyone's opinion.Counter argument for what? I didn't ask for that. I reply to his thread like everyone else and left.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 8, 2016 23:03:58 GMT
Woah there Bud. You make a thread and then degrade peoples opinions??? First off Goku was not specific whether or not he means him and Vegeta go at him at ssj3 and Ssj2 or go out as ssj. I doubt he was talking about the first one. Since Piccolo Ultimate Gohan,17 ,Kibito Kai ,Goten Trunks, 18, and Krillin gave their energy and still was not enough to take Kid buu down. He isn't degrading your post, he's correcting you. He isn't correcting me.
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 8, 2016 23:09:21 GMT
He isn't degrading your post, he's correcting you. He isn't correcting me. Yeah, yeah he was kid buu is the weakest form, super buu was stronger because he absorbed fat buu who was already kid buu + the grand kai and don't forget super buu was absorbing z warriors making him smarter and stronger. It's proven in the images linked above. :/
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 8, 2016 23:12:14 GMT
Exactly which part looked like he was trying to degrade your opinion at all? He was simply providing a counter argument to what you said with official manga pages. Not sure if you're just overly sensitive or what but there's no way he was trying to degrade anyone's opinion. Counter argument for what? I didn't ask for that. I reply to his thread like everyone else and left. Counter argument for the stupid shit you implied (Buu becomes weaker with every next absorbee). And please, grow a pair, or you won't last very long here. You'll need it because if your legs start shaking everytime you make an outrageous claim and someone goes out of their way to correct you, they will expect some actual quotations or scans, not just your worthless scribles and 'opinions'. Victim attitudes, haughty "higher-than-thou" complexes and overall non-sense are not tolerated here. Take this as a first warning. You are not in any position to ask "wishes". Anyone can reply to you whether you like it or not as this is a public forum.
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Post by Android 13 on Oct 8, 2016 23:33:14 GMT
Q 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight? A 3. It comes down to experience I guess. Mystic Gohan may have raw power (potential) but since his desire to fight isn't as great as Goku's, I guess he wouldn't really know how to use it. => Mystic Gohan > SS3 Goku but Goku would have more experience to win. 4. Ooh boy this gonna be tricky. I wouldn't consider anything before Cooler's first movie appearance. Those guys were weaker than SS Goku (on Namek, not Cooler version where he was probably untrained.) Biggest one I was gonna go for was Broly (movie 8) vs Bojack. But then I remembered that Bojack movie had SS2 Gohan beat him, not Goku. Broly (Zenkai) > Bio Broly because Bio Broly was like Botamo, tricky to beat but not necessarily powerful. Also he was a corroding acidic monster. Only one left I got is Janemba vs Hildegarn. That one is hard. It took a Fusion to beat a magical being as Janemba... in Hell. Hildegarn took a SS3 Dragon Fist so that would raise the question between the two movies, was Goku SS3 stronger than Gogeta SS? As my favourite would say:"Damn boy,shoot!". On point 3, you mean to tell me that Goku's experience would win against someone who can literally kill him with a single punch?That's like taking away all of Saitama's fighting experience in his fight with Boros and still say Boros will win.Yeah, sure, Goku has Instant Transmission and can take Gohan into space and just leave him there, but I doubt he would ever do that to any fighter who can't breathe in space.In an actual fight to the death, if Goku absolutely has to kill Gohan, I guess he would win due to Instant Transmission, but in a sparring/K.O. match Gohan would barely have to fight.If people persist that Gohan is weaker, I guess I will have to start pulling power scaling/manga pages to prove myself, just like Ashanark.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 9, 2016 2:16:16 GMT
Counter argument for what? I didn't ask for that. I reply to his thread like everyone else and left. Counter argument for the stupid shit you implied (Buu becomes weaker with every next absorbee). And please, grow a pair, or you won't last very long here. You'll need it because if your legs start shaking everytime you make an outrageous claim and someone goes out of their way to correct you, they will expect some actual quotations or scans, not just your worthless scribles and 'opinions'. Victim attitudes, haughty "higher-than-thou" complexes and overall non-sense are not tolerated here. Take this as a first warning. You are not in any position to ask "wishes". Anyone can reply to you whether you like it or not as this is a public forum. Your omniscient now? How do you know my legs are shaking? He literally pulled up a scan i was talking about so he is actually supporting my argument. It isn't an opinion it is fact
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 9, 2016 2:24:13 GMT
Your omniscient now? How do you know my legs are shaking? He literally pulled up a scan i was talking about so he is actually supporting my argument. It isn't an opinion it is fact So he supported your argument... by proving it wrong? I'm beginning to like your way of thinking there bud.
I'm also beginning to understand why Genghis initially did not want to be a moderator lol.[br He didn't prove me wrong the scan showed Buu getting stronger AND Goku nor Vegeta said anything about Buu getting weaker after becoming Kid Buu.
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Post by The Perfect God on Oct 9, 2016 2:25:01 GMT
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Post by The Masterman on Oct 9, 2016 2:28:57 GMT
Your omniscient now? How do you know my legs are shaking? He literally pulled up a scan i was talking about so he is actually supporting my argument. It isn't an opinion it is fact So he supported your argument... by proving it wrong? I'm beginning to like your way of thinking there bud.
I'm also beginning to understand why Genghis initially did not want to be a moderator lol.Guy, stop he's not worth it Just ignore him and keep the threads going so we don't end up 200 posts with this bs.
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