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Post by Son Pan on Aug 6, 2017 5:19:51 GMT
I originally watched the Funimation dub before I got into the manga, but with the dub I always got the sense Goku being weaker than Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan. Goku told Piccolo he wasn't sure if he could outright beat Fat Buu. I always took it to mean they were on par with each other. Since Goku didn't do any training in that arc I always took his level to have stayed there. Gotenks went SS3 and was fighting a stronger version of Majin Buu I assumed both were stronger than Goku. Gohan was effortlessly beating Super Buu that put him above Goku too. The scene with Gotenks Buu it felt like Buu was humoring Goku then anything else and had he wanted to he could have just as effortlessly beat Goku as he did Gohan. In the anime Gohan and Gotenks Buu started off somewhat on even ground until Buu starts getting serious and just starts torturing him. When they freed everyone from Buu and turned him back into Super Buu Goku was pretty sure he and Vegeta would be killed by him if they didn't at least use the fusion dance. Later when they fought against Kid Buu Goku only made a reference that he could kill Fat Buu, but makes no mention of Super Buu. I thought that reinforced the whole Goku only being on Fat Buu's level, but not Super Buu or the kids. Against Kid Buu when Goku struck out he thought Vegeta's big plan for reviving Earth was to have the boys fight. That plan only made sense is if Goku was sure Gotenks and Gohan were stronger than him and had a better shot. Granted the anime showed some confusing scenes in filler, but I always just brushed it off as the anime being weird.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 6, 2017 5:47:51 GMT
I originally watched the Funimation dub before I got into the manga, but with the dub I always got the sense Goku being weaker than Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan. Goku told Piccolo he wasn't sure if he could outright beat Fat Buu. I always took it to mean they were on par with each other. Since Goku didn't do any training in that arc I always took his level to have stayed there. Gotenks went SS3 and was fighting a stronger version of Majin Buu I assumed both were stronger than Goku. Gohan was effortlessly beating Super Buu that put him above Goku too. The scene with Gotenks Buu it felt like Buu was humoring Goku then anything else and had he wanted to he could have just as effortlessly beat Goku as he did Gohan. In the anime Gohan and Gotenks Buu started off somewhat on even ground until Buu starts getting serious and just starts torturing him. When they freed everyone from Buu and turned him back into Super Buu Goku was pretty sure he and Vegeta would be killed by him if they didn't at least use the fusion dance. Later when they fought against Kid Buu Goku only made a reference that he could kill Fat Buu, but makes no mention of Super Buu. I thought that reinforced the whole Goku only being on Fat Buu's level, but not Super Buu or the kids. Against Kid Buu when Goku struck out he thought Vegeta's big plan for reviving Earth was to have the boys fight. That plan only made sense is if Goku was sure Gotenks and Gohan were stronger than him and had a better shot. Granted the anime showed some confusing scenes in filler, but I always just brushed it off as the anime being weird. You might have gotten the sense, but based on the Dub at least- It leaves it pretty mixed on who's more powerful. I always thought during Super Buu's reversion Goku only says that they need the fusion dance because they'd lose to him as SS2's. Which they would of, badly. He did say he could of 'easily' killed Fat Buu as a SS3. That implies to me he had alot of strength in reserve. Realistically Majin Vegeta was dominating Fat Buu as a SS2. Only his regen and stamina kept him in the game.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 6, 2017 6:08:06 GMT
LMFAO, there is no debate about this guys. I do not know why you're prolonging this that much. All data put together put a clear answer, it goes more or less like this:
Vegeta SSJ2 < Good Buu < Kid Buu = Goku SSJ3 < Original Fat Buu? < Super Buu = Gotenks < Buu-piccolo < Gohan < Buutenks < Buuhan <<<<< SSJ1 Vegeto
Also, remember Buutenks vs. Goku was filler. Only debatable stuff about the Buu scale are Evil Grey Buu and Buffed Buu. If Goku SSJ3 was stronger than Super Buu, he should have smoked Kid Buu in seconds.
Also, in DBM Buu-Vegeta completely outmatched SSJ3 Goku. Similar to how the Buutenks vs. Goku filler fight went.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 6, 2017 6:38:52 GMT
I originally watched the Funimation dub before I got into the manga, but with the dub I always got the sense Goku being weaker than Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan. Goku told Piccolo he wasn't sure if he could outright beat Fat Buu. I always took it to mean they were on par with each other. Since Goku didn't do any training in that arc I always took his level to have stayed there. Gotenks went SS3 and was fighting a stronger version of Majin Buu I assumed both were stronger than Goku. Gohan was effortlessly beating Super Buu that put him above Goku too. The scene with Gotenks Buu it felt like Buu was humoring Goku then anything else and had he wanted to he could have just as effortlessly beat Goku as he did Gohan. In the anime Gohan and Gotenks Buu started off somewhat on even ground until Buu starts getting serious and just starts torturing him. When they freed everyone from Buu and turned him back into Super Buu Goku was pretty sure he and Vegeta would be killed by him if they didn't at least use the fusion dance. Later when they fought against Kid Buu Goku only made a reference that he could kill Fat Buu, but makes no mention of Super Buu. I thought that reinforced the whole Goku only being on Fat Buu's level, but not Super Buu or the kids. Against Kid Buu when Goku struck out he thought Vegeta's big plan for reviving Earth was to have the boys fight. That plan only made sense is if Goku was sure Gotenks and Gohan were stronger than him and had a better shot. Granted the anime showed some confusing scenes in filler, but I always just brushed it off as the anime being weird. You might have gotten the sense, but based on the Dub at least- It leaves it pretty mixed on who's more powerful. I always thought during Super Buu's reversion Goku only says that they need the fusion dance because they'd lose to him as SS2's. Which they would of, badly. He did say he could of 'easily' killed Fat Buu as a SS3. That implies to me he had alot of strength in reserve. Realistically Majin Vegeta was dominating Fat Buu as a SS2. Only his regen and stamina kept him in the game. I disagree here. I think the only reason Vegeta appeared to be dominating was because Fat Buu held back most of his power. We know Buu does hold back his power because upon his revival Gohan and Vegeta sensed his initial ki output and determined they could beat him, but when Buu attacked Dabura they and Goku got a glimpse of his full power they all were afraid. Gohan described it in the dub as if Buu had a endless well of power while Goku scolded Vegeta that they seriously underestimated him. Vegeta initially had the edge the fact that Fat Buu started to beat him badly after he regenerated shows he wasn't being serious before. It goes along with why all of them were afraid of him and why Gohan felt his power seemed endless. Granted people can think this just shows how out of shape Gohan had gotten, but considering Goku and Vegeta were also afraid and since Vegeta lost pretty badly it seems more like Fat Buu held back then Vegeta running low on stamina. It wouldn't be the first time the heroes appear to be dominating only for the villain to reveal they were holding back. The fact that Fat Buu could keep up with Goku in SS3 form proves he was holding back against Vegeta.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 6, 2017 6:48:53 GMT
How the hell does talking about Vegeta's power level evolve into a Gotenks vs Super Buu discussion? I swear I love you derailing bastards with all my heart. Because supernekomajin randomly asked the question- How Strong is Super Buu, which then got several of us asking what does that have to do with DBM's Vegeta and was he referring to Super Buu from DBZ or Zen Buu from DBM. Then we just all kinda went with it like any random conversation point change haha. Conqueror Geng - One last question then, how do you reckon Goku Vs Buutenks is filler? And even if it was, the fact that Goku was implying heavily that Buuiccolo wasn't a proper challenge before Gohan got absorbed shows that they're at least on par. Based of the Anime i always thought it went: Vegeta SS2 < Fat Buu < Kid Buu < Super Buu = Gotenks SS3 <(Just) Buuicolo = Goku SS3 </= Mystic Gohan < Buutenks < Buuhan < Vegeto <<<<< Vegeto SS1 Again there's enough implied evidence that either of us could be right. It just depends on how you interpret certain events, plus the differences between the Manga, the Anime and the dub/sub of said Anime leaves enough things uncertain that we both have valid points. In saying that i'll always believe im right, based on my interpretation of said events, and you'll always believe you're right. My Final thought is that Toriyama was vague enough and almost famously inconsistent that there's no 'fact' when it comes to power scales/levels in the Buu saga. Which is now blindingly obvious in DBS. So on that note i'm leaving it there. Of course we always have the PM option if anyone would like to continue, because i always found it fascinating how the various versions of buu were portrayed throughout the saga.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 6, 2017 6:55:46 GMT
VoidSlayer I dunno about using the dub. Or even the anime in general. The anime is the sole reason why the "Is Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu" debates have been going on for forever, going so far as to claim that Kid Buu was the most powerful form when in the manga he...wasn't. The anime goes so far that it contradicts itself via Buu's absorption. Apparently, anime Buu when he absorbs people becomes weaker...which is why for some bizarre reason he decided he needed to absorb Gotenks and overpower Gohan. Because now he was weaker! Only by losing people does he become stronger! The dub even contradicts itself with Goku's "You don't think you can beat me like that, do you?" to Buucullo, but then later (Ep 275) keeps the "Even though he's a lot weaker, we're still no match for him. If we go out there right now he's going to kill us." from the manga in reference to just regular Super Buu, despite the fact that he now also has Vegeta as an ally. So SS3 Goku > Buucullo -- but Super Buu > SS3 Goku + SS2 Vegeta? It doesn't make sense. Especially since apparently he only gets weaker via absorption, meaning absorbing Gohan, Gotenks and Piccolo means he should've been brought down, not force Goku to fuse into Vegito. Instead he zig-zags between getting weaker and stronger as the plot demands for every absorption or lack thereof, just as anime Goku's strength zig-zags. I always thought during Super Buu's reversion Goku only says that they need the fusion dance because they'd lose to him as SS2's. Which they would of, badly. But if he can defeat the stronger Buucullo as a SS3, what's the point of wanting to fuse into Gogeta to fight the weaker Super Buu? He can just beat him easily as a SS3 right? Because it wasn't in the manga. Also see above point about the anime's weird absorption rules suddenly changing. If you're basing it off the anime then you should have Kid Buu > Any other Buu. Since that's what the anime explicitly says in Ep 277 (Dub or Sub). I see where you're going with the DBS anime and manga comparison, but that's a whole different beast entirely. The DBZ anime was an adaptation of the manga. Comparatively, the DBS anime AND the manga are both adapted from Toriyama's original outline for the story arcs.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 6, 2017 6:59:53 GMT
Conqueror Geng - One last question then, how do you reckon Goku Vs Buutenks is filler? And even if it was, the fact that Goku was implying heavily that Buuiccolo wasn't a proper challenge before Gohan got absorbed shows that they're at least on par. Based of the Anime i always thought it went: Didn't happen in the manga. No implied evidence at all on your part other than you misunderstanding a dub (which wasn't exactly following at 100% the source material anyway). On the other hand I'm basing all mine on actual commentaries, actual feats and courses of action. In fact, what you listed was not an actual line from the dub or manga but a commercial synopsis for the episode. As I said: if Goku was stronger than both Super Buu and Mystic Gohan, Kid Buu would not have lasted a second with him. That's all the proof you need to know SSJ3 Goku was in no way close to Super Buu. Think of it this way: Kid Buu = SSJ3 Level Original Fat Buu (2 Kaioshins and suppressed) = Quite above SSJ3 level Super Buu (2 Kaios absorbed and not suppressed) = Very above SSJ3 level How do we know Kid Buu is SSJ3 level? Well, look at the last fight he had with Goku. It was pretty even. How do we know the original Fat Buu was a bit stronger? Well, he never took Goku seriously in SSJ3 either. How do we know Super Buu is far stronger than Goku SSJ3? Because it's the result of Kid Buu (already equal to Goku) + 2 gods of comparable strength. Super Buu is at least 3x stronger than Goku, as is Gotenks. Gohan would be 5x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and Buutenks would be 6x. It's really not too complicated.
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 6, 2017 7:02:16 GMT
As much as I love Funimation dub, it's got some pretty bad inconsistencies even within its own script in the original dub. (late 90s/early 2000s.)
1. SS3 Gotenks emerges to fight Super Buu: Goku says "they're stronger than I'd be even if I trained my entire life!" implying SS3 Gotenks >> SS3 Goku. 2. Buutenks reverts back to Buuccolo: Goku says "How do you expect to beat me like that?" implying SS3 Goku > Super Buu. 3. Super Buu turns into Kid Buu: Vegeta says "why is his power increasing instead of decreasing?" implying Kid Buu > Super Buu. 4. Goku turns SS3 against Kid Buu: "You're twice as strong as you were before! Your speed, your power..." (or something along those lines), implying again that Kid Buu > Super Buu.
But it's already contradicted itself, because if Gotenks is stronger than Goku (1) and struggling with Super Buu, then Goku shouldn't be superior to Buucolo (2) and Kid Buu, who's equal with Goku, shouldn't be stronger (4).
Even going by filler, the one hit Goku lands on Buutenks was when Buutenks was distracted looking at Gohan. Other than that, Buutenks either blocked or dodged all of Goku's attacks, and beat him in a spar. Gohan's filler, by contrast, has him beating Buutenks in the first few minutes of the fight (he lands four blows while Buu only lands two) and only start to fail after Buutenks starts psyching him out. I personally think having Gohan lose because of demoralization instead of being weaker is better storytelling, but in the manga Buutenks was flat-out stronger. And in the manga, it seems clear that Super Buu is far stronger than Goku. Just how much is uncertain, though.
I myself was a "Kid Buu > All" guy until I read the manga, which is much more clear on the subject.
By the time of DBM, I'm not certain either Goku or Vegeta could beat Super Buu on their own. Perhaps take him together, or give him a really good fight solo, but not win one on one.
EDIT: Didn't see the two above replies while making this post. Sorry, Voidslayer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2017 9:57:56 GMT
I'd like to contribute. Gotenks may have been equal to Super Buu, but because of not taking the fight seriously and because of Super Buu's obvious advantages (no stamina issues, regeneration), Gotenks lost and got absorbed.
I like to think that when Buu absorbed the Supreme Kais, they did something which would reduce his power before getting absorbed. My guess is that they performed one last spell before being absorbed into Buu. When Fat Buu was removed from Super Buu, the effects of that spell would be removed along with Fat Buu which would cause his strength to increase when he became a Pure Majin.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 6, 2017 10:07:18 GMT
Ashanark - Huh. You're right. That is a gigantic pandora's box of inconsistencies. I can see why there's so much debate on this just within this forum, let alone throughout the rest of the Dragon Ball world. So for Super Buu- Correct me if im wrong but isn't he just Fat Buu but with his 'evil' side ascendent? Then if thats so he was obviously more powerful then Fat Buu but it doesn't really say how much. As for Goku's line about Gotenks- I saw that more as an encouragement thing, saying they were more powerful then he ever could of been would have been a very Goku-like thing to say considering Gotenks had the mental acuity of a 6 year old. "Oh hey, your fusion has made you more powerful than me, even if i trained a lifetime! You're our best hope guys!" Because it stands to reason Goku was encouraging them when he says to himself when fighting Kid Buu that "I could of defeated you easily when we first met (Fat Buu), but i wanted the boys to have their chance to win.....I won't be around forever" He even plays around with Fat Buu because he needed Trunks to get to the lookout, thus was buying time for him by playing with Fat Buu. To me that seems simple enough. As for Kid Buu being the strongest (When clearly he wasn't), i could have sworn that the line Goku used was that he wasn't more powerful than ever, he was more dangerous than ever. As by that time he'd become a complete maniac that was driven by the need to destroy- which he was doing until Goku and Vegeta powered up enough to grab his attention in otherworld. Axalon I dunno about using the dub. Or even the anime in general. The anime is the sole reason why the "Is Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu" debates have been going on for forever, going so far as to claim that Kid Buu was the most powerful form when in the manga he...wasn't. The anime goes so far that it contradicts itself via Buu's absorption. Apparently, anime Buu when he absorbs people becomes weaker...which is why for some bizarre reason he decided he needed to absorb Gotenks and overpower Gohan. Because now he was weaker! Only by losing people does he become stronger!My thoughts on that is that when the 'ascendant' personality (The one that affects his look/power/mood the most) is considerably weaker than him, his power shrinks to match it. Thats why he was reduced to his 'Fat' form- he absorbed the Fat Kaioshin which reduced his strength AND made him the naive fella he was that got befriended by Hercule. So when he absorbs someone who is of comparable huge power (SS3 Gotenks) His combined strength increases enough to overwhelm Gohan. Of course he absorbed Piccolo as well, but notice his look resembled Gotenks's Fusion clothes, meaning his ascendent strength came from Gotenks, but he still had all of Skills and Wisdom of Piccolo to draw on. Then when the fusion runs it's course he reverts to Piccolo's look because he's now the ascendant personality (Being stronger than base Goten or Trunks), thus decreasing his power by a 1/3, since that's how much Gotenks increased his 'base' Super Buu strength. I do agree with you that both Buu's and Gokus strength seems to zig-zag great deal, which (In the anime at least) Makes it extremely difficult to pin any one persons power level down. Up until the end of the Cell Saga it was still pretty linear. Buu saga? Yeah.....Not so much. I don't think though that we can ignore that Goku does explicitly say that he could of beaten Fat Buu Easily, and held back to give another generation of heroes a chance to shine. But if he can defeat the stronger Buucullo as a SS3, what's the point of wanting to fuse into Gogeta to fight the weaker Super Buu? He can just beat him easily as a SS3 right?Correct me again if im wrong, but wasn't that during his reversion to Kid Buu? (That Goku wanted to fuse with Vegeta via Fusion dance). If so then that would imply that Kid Buu is on par to Base Super Buu, Not Fat Buu and the reason Goku couldn't defeat him was because as Goku said during the fight "His strength keeps increasing" and Vegeta said once they escaped his body "Why is his strength increasing, not decreasing" Conqueror Geng - As I said: if Goku was stronger than both Super Buu and Mystic Gohan, Kid Buu would not have lasted a second with him. That's all the proof you need to know SSJ3 Goku was in no way close to Super Buu. Think of it this way:
Kid Buu = SSJ3 Level
Original Fat Buu (2 Kaioshins and suppressed) = Quite above SSJ3 level
Super Buu (2 Kaios absorbed and not suppressed) = Very above SSJ3 level
How do we know Kid Buu is SSJ3 level? Well, look at the last fight he had with Goku. It was pretty even. How do we know the original Fat Buu was a bit stronger? Well, he never took Goku seriously in SSJ3 either. How do we know Super Buu is far stronger than Goku SSJ3? Because it's the result of Kid Buu (already equal to Goku) + 2 gods of comparable strength.
If we follow Goku and Vegetas statements that: A) Goku could have easily beaten Fat Buu as a SS3,(He says to Vegeta that he could of beaten Buu but he didnt, he wanted Goten and Trunks to defeat him, because passing the torch and all that, and he isnt even supposed to be there). B) Vegeta states that Super Buu's strength Increased when he reverted to Kid Buu, and C) When Goku turns SS3 against Kid Buu: "You're twice as strong as you were before! Your speed, your power..." (or something along those lines), implying again that Kid Buu > Super Buu, then there's no way in Heck that Fat Buu is above Kid Buu, let alone SS3 Goku. In fact that shows that you are not basing yours on real commentaries and stats when there were no explicit, stated feats that place any one version of Buu Definitively above another..... With the obvious exceptions of Buutenks and Buuhan who were worlds above anyone except for Vegeto. Obviously this is the Anime i'm talking about, not the Manga because things seem to be considerably different. But I's say even if Manga Goku is much weaker than Super Buu, Anime Goku is much harder to define. I'm not trying to say that either of us is deluded/mistaken, just that there's enough inconsistency with Buu saga power levels and transformations that nothing can be stated with concrete certainty Your statement that Kid Buu is weaker then Fat Buu can only be taken seriously if we ignore Gokus explicit statement that he could of beaten Fat Buu easily, but chose not to. Then considering he was indeed fighting evenly with Kid Buu, and says to Buuiccolo that "You don't plan to beat me like that do you?" that Kid Buu = Super Buu, with fat Buu at a very distant 3rd. That would then put him a bit below Mystic Gohan (There, i'll admit it) Because why Goku probably could of beaten Super Buu based on the assertion that Super and Kid are about equal, Gohan was crushing Super Buu, which stands to reason he would of crushed Kid Buu as well. I'll therefore accept Gohan was probably 10-20% stronger. But 500%? The numbers just don't add up.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 6, 2017 12:01:09 GMT
As for Kid Buu being the strongest ( When clearly he wasn't), i could have sworn that the line Goku used was that he wasn't more powerful than ever, he was more dangerous than ever. As by that time he'd become a complete maniac that was driven by the need to destroy- which he was doing until Goku and Vegeta powered up enough to grab his attention in otherworld. ... I don't think though that we can ignore that Goku does explicitly say that he could of beaten Fat Buu Easily, and held back to give another generation of heroes a chance to shine. Kid Buu is the strongest of all Buus in the OG Japanese anime. The dub doesn't do much better, but still messes it up by claiming that Super Buu is weaker than Kid Buu in the face of all logic. You're also mixing up the manga explanation with the anime one. In the manga Buu is the most dangerous one because he's chaotic and unrestrained, but not the most powerful. The anime claims that not only is he the most dangerous one because of his nature, he's also the strongest. The two Kais then go on to say that absorbing made Buu weaker (somehow) and more easily controlled, despite clearly making him stronger every time he absorbed someone. Fat Buu is the only one that's questionable, but given that he and Super Buu are literally the same person just with a good vs. evil thing going on then it's likely that Fat Buu wasn't using his full power. We also can't ignore that Goku also said the same thing about Kid Buu, the strongest of any Buu ever in the anime, yet wasn't able to defeat him alone either, making his statement about defeating Fat Buu suspect. No, that was when he'd reverted to Super Buu. Vegeta hadn't ripped out Fat Buu at that point in the episode. So we have Goku wanting to fuse into Gogeta to fight Super Buu. B. The increase in strength was BUFF Buu. Not Kid Buu. Buff Buu's strength left him when he completed the transformation into Kid Buu. Well, in the manga at any rate. The anime ran away with this and had Kid Buu maintain Buff Buu's strength I presume. C. The statements don't make sense because they contradict each other. Again, Goku taunts Buucullo, but then wants to fuse with Vegeta to form Gogeta just to fight Super Buu, but suddenly Kid Buu, who is supposedly even stronger, Goku decides he can take on as a regular SS3 without needing to fuse? The Kais both explicitly state Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. That's a direct anime dub quote. Ep 277: Old Kai: " Hmmm. Now I finally get it. They weakened him. Yes, when he absorbed the Kais. Of course! It brought his power down. I thought the opposite was true." Kibitokai: " Exactly. This Buu's even more powerful, and without the influence of the Kai's goodness inside of him he's evil. Pure, unrestrained evil." Ep 279: Goku: " Darn you, where's your weak point? You're twice as strong as you were before. Your speed, your power..." So now Goku is fighting someone twice as strong as the guy he wanted Gogeta to fight? This is WORSE in the original: So now Kid Buu is stronger than the one that Vegito fought, but hey, Goku's okay with this. The anime clearly has no idea what it's doing in the Buu Saga, which is saying something since I don't think Toriyama had any idea what he was doing in the saga either, it just speaks to how badly Toei messed it up, likely in prep work for DBGT. It's also why people familiar with the manga don't refer to the anime, and also why these damned Buu arguments creep up all the time. So going by the anime's contradicting statements and feats this is the power scale. Goku quotes included for placement: Vegito SS3 Goku -- "If only I had one minute to charge! I could beat him!"Kid Buu (Japanese anime) -- "You're on a whole different level from all the Buus up to now!" Kid Buu (English Dub) -- Potentially, depending on how you view the Kais quotes: "Exactly. This Buu's even more powerful, and without the influence of the Kai's goodness inside of him he's evil. Pure, unrestrained evil."Buuhan Buutenks Gohan SS3 Goku (English Dub) -- "If only I had one minute to charge! I could beat him!"Kid Buu (English Dub) -- The only other spot he could be -- "Darn you, where's your weak point? You're twice as strong as you were before. Your speed, your power..."SS3 Goku -- "You (Buucullo) don't expect to beat me like that, do you?"Buucullo Super Buu/Gotenks Fat Buu SS3 Goku -- "He's (Super Buu) still stronger than either of us! He'll kill us if we go out like this!"SS2 Goku SS2 Vegeta THIS is why the anime Buu Saga is confusing. There's no zenkai boosts or time chambers or any other convenient plot devices for Goku as there were in the previous story arcs. Goku's power just keeps rising...OVERFLOWING... Compare this to the manga: Vegito Buuhan Buutenks Gohan Buucullo Super Buu/Gotenks Fat Buu Kid Buu/SS3 Goku SS2 Goku SS2 Vegeta Much cleaner, yes?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 6, 2017 15:15:11 GMT
If we follow Goku and Vegetas statements that: A) Goku could have easily beaten Fat Buu as a SS3,(He says to Vegeta that he could of beaten Buu but he didnt, he wanted Goten and Trunks to defeat him, because passing the torch and all that, and he isnt even supposed to be there). I am not following Goku and Vegeta's English ANIME comments, because they are innacurate. That should be obvious. He couldn't have beat the original Fat Buu because he was almost losing his shit trying to beat Kid Buu who should be weaker, despite stating so. He only stated so when he was reverting to BUFF BUU, and even then I admitted this one was up to debate. And it is only so because he never fought beyond smacking the shit out of East Kai, therefore we have no direct comparisons. I don't remember that. In the Japanese dub he says nothing of the sort: Neither he does in the Spanish one: Again. Original Fat Buu = Super Buu but restrained. So yeah, there's a way definitely he was stronger than Kid Buu. Remember Original Fat Buu had the whole Kid Buu inside (+ Kai Power) so this should be obvious. I am basing my evaluations in fights primarily, and only use comments when they do not contradict the fights. All Buu's forms strength can be stated with concrete certainty except by two (which I have avoided mentioning because of the same): Gray Buu and Buff Buu. Goku only showed to be equal to Kid Buu. Goku showed to be equal to Original Fat Buu but Buu never tried to defend seriously. Original Fat Buu is Kid Buu (SSJ3 level) + the 2 Kais who were at SSJ3 level or so too, but is restrained due to his friendliness and lack of intelligence. When he goes into Super Buu, he becomes unrestrained and thus equivalent to not one but 3 SSJ3, which is why a stronger Gotenks had to deal with him. Obviously the gap was too close and was not enough. Therefore someone with even a bigger gap was needed: Gohan. If Goku says "Oh I can beat Fat Buu!" but then has big troubles with only 1/3rd of him. Then I can easily dismiss his shit comment. If Goku says "Oh, Kid Buu is twice as stronger as before!" yet he decided to crush the earrings himself, despite he was scared shitless to do so against Super Buu... then I can dismiss his shit comment too. Indeed I am totally ignoring that. Because he never displayed the ability to truly destroy the original Fat Buu (who was the Kid Buu who he could not defeat on his own either + 2 additional Kais). I did not watch the DUB where Goku said that to Buuccolo. In fact in all DUBs he was refering that he could not beat Gohan (not himself) and he's right. Buu and the unfused kids wouldn't have been enough of a boost to match Gohan. But Goku? He could have been bodied even by base Super Buu. Also, have you ever thought why Gotenks and Mystic Gohan had to be nuked with Earth before they fought Kid Buu? Because either of them would have bitchslapped and vaporized the fuck out Kid Buu. And ofc Goku and Vegeta would not have time to shine in the final moment. I think even a SSJ2 Gotenks (which never appeared) would have been more than enough to one-shot vaporize kid Buu. Also, the comparison is still wrong... if... SSJ3 Goku >> Buccolo (you cn't beat me like that!) Then Super Buu =/= Kid Buu. Because Buccolo is already stronger than Super Buu, even if by an insignificant margin. Goku was equal to Kid Buu. If Super Buu = Kid Buu (which is not) then Goku would have been equal to Super Buu (and he wasn't) too. Then of course this comment to Buuccolo "you can't beat me like that" is pure non-sense anyway. Because if Super Buu is equal to Kid Buu, and Kid Buu with his lack of brains was giving serious troubles to Goku... now imagine that raw power + that of Piccolo and his smarts. Goku would've been fucked, and thus... Buccolo "could indeed beat him like that". Again, this is only following your stats to be a devil's advocate and to show you why they're wrong. I do not personally subscribe to anything in these last comparison lines.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 6, 2017 15:22:00 GMT
I don't remember that. In the Japanese dub he says nothing of the sort: Neither he does in the Spanish one: That actually took me a fair bit of hunting to get down earlier, but Goku does say that in the English dub while he's still a SS2. As for your first link, it's actually even worse. About 10 seconds in Goku claims that this Buu is stronger than anyone he's ever fought before--which thanks to anime filler also includes the likes of Buutenks.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 6, 2017 15:32:32 GMT
I don't remember that. In the Japanese dub he says nothing of the sort: Neither he does in the Spanish one: That actually took me a fair bit of hunting to get down earlier, but Goku does say that in the English dub while he's still a SS2. As for your first link, it's actually even worse. About 10 seconds in Goku claims that this Buu is stronger than anyone he's ever fought before--which thanks to anime filler also includes the likes of Buutenks. Well, depends on how you read that comment. He was indeed stronger than Cell and Freeza whom he fought, if he was referring to Kid Buu as the whole individual and not just the original form specifically. When you take Buutenks filler out of the equation, the comment makes even more sense.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 6, 2017 15:37:59 GMT
Conqueror Geng True, but the anime arc has moments like these before this as well, with Goku's random taunting comment to Buucullo. I agree that if logic were being used it would've likely intended to just mean the likes of Frieza and Cell, but taken at face value he's saying that Kid Buu is stronger than Buutenks considering they added an entire fight between him and Goku. He also has another scene before this also saying that Kid Buu is the strongest of all the Buus, of which I linked a screencap in my earlier post, which makes me conclude Toei pumped him up for no discernible reason other than "The Final Villain MUST be the strongest!"
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 6, 2017 15:52:20 GMT
We can also simplify Buu's powers even more.
Kid Buu = Original form, no absorbed people. SSJ3 level. Original Fat Buu = Absorbs 2 kais of around SSJ3 level too, but his psyche becomes really tame, so he's unable to access all of it Super Buu = He gains access to the 2 kais' full power plus his own, becomes equivalent to 3 SSJ3s. His psyche goes unhinged and gains intelligence as well. Buutenks = Absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo and succesfully doubles his power. He becomes equivalent to 6 SSJ3 and thus is able to defeat Gohan who is only equivalent to 5 SSJ3s. Buuhan = Fusion wears off and he comes back to be equivalent 3 SSJ3s + small additions due to Pickles and the kids. Absorbs Gohan, sums his power and now he's equivalent to 8 SSJ3s as Buuhan.
It's pretty much linear as you can see, only contrived stuff is Fat Buu, but this becomes simpler when you consider him merely a contained form of "Super Buu".
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 6, 2017 20:08:45 GMT
Alright so we can agree that the anime contradicts itself in a number of ways. I can get behind that thinking since there's enough proof that things.... Fluctuate greatly in the English Sub (The only version i've ever seen of the Buu saga) However Conqueror Geng for you to dismiss the points ive raised simply because they seem like "throwaway" comments that contradict your interpretation..... Well that seems pretty simple of you. I'll agree that they make alot of comments that contradict your interpretation as well is all im saying. What you say makes sense- But only if you ignore what i raised and stick with what you've said. Obviously i disagree. Plus when is it ever stated that the Kai's Buu absorbed were SS3 level? Up until then SS3 was completely unknown so to compare what happened millions of years before to what was happening at the current DBZ timeline leaves alot of room for interpretation Axalon - Ok after reading through your list i can see that the english dub may have taken some....Liberties with the power scale. But as i've said- The English dub of the Buu saga is the ONLY one i've seen, as i've never read the Manga, and honestly i probably won't. So everything i've put down comes down to that fact. Ill allow thats a bit narrow of me but nevertheless the evidence is there that the various versions of Buu fluctuate greatly. Obviously the Manga list you've put down is A LOT more linear, so for those Manga readers to look at the Anime and say it's a big mess in comparison makes a crapload of sense. I can see why Genghis and others dismiss the Anime entirely purely because of that fact. One last point though- When Kid expelled Fat Buu because he wouldn't let him hurt Hercule, Kid proceeded to whallop him easily, while Goku was still fighting Kid evenly. That at least, implies that Both Goku and Kid are stronger than Fat Buu. Was that in the Manga as well?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 6, 2017 20:26:31 GMT
Well, Kid Buu instinctively absorbed when he considered someone as a threat enough to his power. One could see that when he outmatched the Kais, he just killed them. But with South Kai, after managing to harm Kid Buu a few times, he got absorbed. This means Kid Buu considered him a threat enough for him (perhaps even more so than SSJ3 Goku, since he never tried to absorb him!).
The same applies for the Grand Kai too.
The "Good Buu" which Kid Buu wallooped easily is far far weaker, as he doesn't have Kid Buu power, and only has the 2 kai's power, and on top of that is very hidden/limited by his childish nature and overall lack of excessive wildness.
Also, I didn't dismiss your point. I went as far as to follow it entirely that Super Buu = kid Buu << Goku SSJ3 to the end and showed why it didn't make sense.
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Post by Xeno Black on Aug 7, 2017 6:17:31 GMT
I agree with everything Conqueror Geng has said about Buu ( Note: We still need to finish our nearly year long debate over Buu's strongest forms, lol], and it can get even deeper once you began to understand the psychology of Buu's funky absorption mechanics. And just like what Axalon has said, Buu literally either gets weaker or stronger depending on the source (anime, manga, second hand sources like DBM, etc) and from personal perception. Personally the only time Buu ever gotten weaker from a absorption was from absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai. As Buff Buu previously (who is leagues above Super Buu, and may even be somewhat comparable to Ultimate Gohan since I think he slightly surpasses Buuiccolo), it is fact he has gotten weaker since his power dwindled after assimilating the Grand Kai's power. He became comparable to SSJ3 Goku, where his previous form would smash him to bits. Now the manga says that it was thanks to the "goodness" in the Grand Kai that calmed him down [aka became weaker], but it still makes no sense since he absorbed the Southern Supreme Kai who is just as good as his master. It will be like absorbing Goku, become stronger, but then you become weaker once you absorb Gohan. Logic like this can only be explained by plot convenience, which is something I absolutely loathe in writing. That and Deus ex machina (dragon balls are the exception) I utterly detest in writing, especially when there is no foreshadowing involved. Now here is a quick tier list of the levels that Buu was at. Note: It is virtually identical to Conqueror Geng , but I feel like I need to place it again to convey our shared logic. Also some character comparisons will be added to strengthen this tier listing. 1. Buuhan (this should be a given.) 2. Buutenks (upon his manga debut, he literally claims to be the strongest Buu, in past, present, and future. The future part is debunked when he absorbs Gohan.) 2(a). Ultimate Gohan falls here. 3. Buuiccolo [plus Goten and Trunks] (Having lost a third of his accumulated power from SSJ3 Gotenks defusing, he became weaker than Gohan once again. Now Goku's statement "you don't expect to fight me like that" in the English dub is flawed dialogue that contains multiple impressions in it. But once you can look past it, Goku is referring that Buu is weaker than Gohan, but Goku himself is still no match for him.) 4. Buuiccolo [no Goten or Trunks]. 5. Super Buu (can fight against SSJ3 Gotenks evenly, with the latter already surpassing SSJ3 Goku. Plus Goku refused to fight against regular Super Buu at all costs in the manga, which was proven to be smart after the anime filler showed both he and Vegeta couldn't defeat him in his body. Only surpassed by Gohan, though Gotenks might be able to kill him too depending on perception.) 5(a). SSJ3 Goku falls here. 6. "Initial" Fat Buu / Kid Buu - Both of these characters are virtually of the same strength, though Kid Buu may be slightly stronger than the form of Buff Buu absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai. Either way, a 100% SSJ3 Goku can kill either, so they are automatically inferior Note: Now if "Initial" Fat Buu can gain access to the seal might of both Southern and Grand Supreme Kai's, his power will soar to incredible heights and should surpass Buff Buu, which might make him become equivalent to Ultimate Gohan, or even surpass him. 7. Evil Grey Buu. 8. "Good" Fat Buu. @vegeta being stronger than Fat Buu This right here should be obvious; Vegeta is absolutely no match against "initial" Fat Buu. As a magically augmented SSJ2 at full power thanks to a senzu bean, he was at the absolute peak of his power in the Buu saga when he fought against Fat Buu. But none of his blows fazed Buu, and one single angry explosion [his first attack during their battle actually] from Buu nearly crippled Vegeta and had the prince questioning on how he could defeat him. Even Vegeta's ultimate attack, the Final Explosion, failed to injure the majin. Thus Vegeta is inferior to Buu, and becomes even weaker when he loses his majin strength, which explains why his beatdown by Kid Buu, a being of similar strength to "initial" Fat Buu, is far more worse than his first battle against Buu. Hell even "Good" Fat Buu did better against Kid Buu than Vegeta, which leads me to believe that the saiyan prince is inferior to all levels of Buu in this saga using his natural strength (minus majinization and fusion of course). So yeah, Vegeta is a hopeless basket case in this saga, literally. @kid Buu is the Strongest My reaction: Anybody who subscribes to this nonsense is better off joining a youtube underground forum than this sanctuary provided by POPO . Anyone who does, I openly accept your challenge and will explain why this thinking is flawed and nonsensical. @ssj3 Gotenks vs Super Buu Despite Buu's claim to Ultimate Gohan that he was waiting for him while fighting "the boys" to pass the time, but I still find it that SSJ3 Gotenks is slightly superior to Buu. Take a look at this screenshot: Here Buu was at the complete mercy of Gotenks, and the fused saiyan hybrid was ready to blast the djinn into sub atomic particles with his ensuring kamehameha. And I believed it was possible too. This is my personal perception of this fight, but it is still true at the end of the day that Gotenks did got Buu into this vulnerable position. Whether you want to believe the follow-up is up to you, but I sure do.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 7, 2017 8:38:41 GMT
Ok i've had a good read and after considering all the points you've all put forth, the differences in interpretation between Manga Vs Anime, and the various interpretations between Dub and Sub and i come to the following conclusion.
Manga- Super Buu is more powerful then SS3 Goku, Roughly equal to SS3 Gotenks, and a damn sight inferior to Mystic Gohan.
Anime- Super Buu is about the same as SS3 Goku and SS3 Gotenks, and still a damn sight inferior to Mystic Gohan.
One thing- So if Super Buu is Fat Buu but with his Evil side ascendent, shouldn't then Kid Buu be about the same level since He's basically Super Buu, but with his evil side completely dominant (With the 'goodness' of Fat Buu gone entirely). I mean it's not like he lost any power when he expelled Fat Buu when Hercule intervened.
As for the forms of Buu you'll never hear me say that Kid Buu was the strongest, that title goes to Buuhan, then Buutenks. Kid Buu was probably the most dangerous, but was not the strongest.
And as for my preference to stick with the Anime's interpretation when it comes to Goku, i'll admit that the Filler moments i count as just as relevent as the Manga source material, and that Goku just kept holding back the 'true' power of SS3. Even though i know it's likely that Funimation/Toei gave him the ol' Superman treatment (Read: Large power boosts with no real explanation). It comes down to personal preference, and i prefer the 'stronger' Anime version of Goku over the perhaps more accurate original Manga Goku.
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