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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 7, 2017 9:40:47 GMT
Ok i've had a good read and after considering all the points you've all put forth, the differences in interpretation between Manga Vs Anime, and the various interpretations between Dub and Sub and i come to the following conclusion. Manga- Super Buu is more powerful then SS3 Goku, Roughly equal to SS3 Gotenks, and a damn sight inferior to Mystic Gohan. Anime- Super Buu is about the same as SS3 Goku and SS3 Gotenks, and still a damn sight inferior to Mystic Gohan. There is no difference between Anime and Manga Super Buu. A lousy translation (which honestly is all what it was) does not become an "independent Anime interpretation/continuity" like DBsuper. No, he shouldn't because: Super Buu = Buff Kai and Fat Kai Absorbed Kid Buu = No one absorbed Kid Buu didn't experience any loss in power in spitting Good Buu because it was already detached. He basically just expelled the severed cocoon. He already suffered the decrease in power going bizarrely from Super Buu to Kid Buu. Again, it's not even "ANIME" by itself. It's a bad translation only so the responsibility falls on the dub company and not a general "anime version". If you want to keep attached to a clearly inferior, broken Japanese-translated edition out of pure power nostalgia... well, to each their own. But you will keep getting slammed down multilateraly in these kind of debates if deliberately deciding to ignore more accurate source material. Goku is no Superman, and should have never been. It becomes worse when you factor it was never displayed "physically" in the anime (the contrary happens in fact: inside Super Buu) unlike the commentaries about Gohan which actually match his performance, and is only a non-sensical inserted line hype. Again, the very manga has enough non-sense of its own (major cases being the "Buff Buu" and "Grey Buu": those didn't even make sense in the manga) to even factor more additional non-sense.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 7, 2017 11:42:17 GMT
Ok i've had a good read and after considering all the points you've all put forth, the differences in interpretation between Manga Vs Anime, and the various interpretations between Dub and Sub and i come to the following conclusion. Manga- Super Buu is more powerful then SS3 Goku, Roughly equal to SS3 Gotenks, and a damn sight inferior to Mystic Gohan. Anime- Super Buu is about the same as SS3 Goku and SS3 Gotenks, and still a damn sight inferior to Mystic Gohan. There is no difference between Anime and Manga Super Buu. A lousy translation (which honestly is all what it was) does not become an "independent Anime interpretation/continuity" like DBsuper. No, he shouldn't because: Super Buu = Buff Kai and Fat Kai AbsorbedKid Buu = No one absorbed Kid Buu didn't experience any loss in power in spitting Good Buu because it was already detached. He basically just expelled the severed cocoon. He already suffered the decrease in power going bizarrely from Super Buu to Kid Buu. Again, it's not even "ANIME" by itself. It's a bad translation only so the responsibility falls on the dub company and not a general "anime version". If you want to keep attached to a clearly inferior, broken Japanese-translated edition out of pure power nostalgia... well, to each their own. But you will keep getting slammed down multilateraly in these kind of debates if deliberately deciding to ignore more accurate source material. Goku is no Superman, and should have never been. It becomes worse when you factor it was never displayed "physically" in the anime (the contrary happens in fact: inside Super Buu) unlike the commentaries about Gohan which actually match his performance, and is only a non-sensical inserted line hype. Again, the very manga has enough non-sense of its own (major cases being the "Buff Buu" and "Grey Buu": those didn't even make sense in the manga) to even factor more additional non-sense. Wasn't then Super Buu just Buff Kai absorbed? Fat Buu was Buff AND Fat Kai absorbed, with Fat Kai becoming the dominant personality? See, that "Clearly inferior, broken Japanese-translated edition" of DBZ was for years, decades even, my only known source of DBZ-related content. I've never read any Manga, and Until DBS came out i'd never even watched a subbed version of it. So for me what was added to the English dubbed tv show was just as relevent as the subbed japanese episodes or the original japanese episodes. So it's hard for me to accept that the one thing i've relied on for all this time is generally considered inaccurate by the wider DBZ community. For me it was quite plausible that SS3 Goku could continually increase his power and only didn't because of what i considered the solid reasoning that he wouldn't be around forever and that the younger generations should start shouldering that responsibility. Plus don't get me started on any characters ability to easily win, but didn't because they were 'holding back' Good chat. I learned some new things today. The child in me who drew up idolising DBZ doesn't want to admit that the things he saw and the characters he idolised could possibly be wrong. The Adult realises that things are rarely that simple, especially with material where things are literally lost in translation.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 7, 2017 11:59:56 GMT
The issue was not even the dub actors, the post-production or anything. The problem was whoever was in charge of making the first translations/dialogues from Japanese to English (or was it to Spanish? I know some of the first early English DUBs in the 90's were translated using Spanish as a source, and not directly Japanese.) Doing this (Going from Japanese > Spanish > English) of course will create many loops that give distorted meanings, akin to the "Big Green/Old Dirty Bastard" dub. I have not read the full manga myself either. It's quite a long way from Dragon Ball up to Buu saga. However I've read the Buu saga chapters even backwards because this one has the most inconsistencies/loops in regards to any dub. For example, 2 of the Kaioshins do not ever appear in the manga (but are referenced). One of Buu's forms doesn't appear in the anime (in the manga he appears only with Piccolo absorbed for a panel or so) This is him with only Piccolo and no Trunks/Goten:
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Post by Axalon on Aug 7, 2017 15:22:25 GMT
VoidSlayerThat's fine if you want to just stick to the anime man. Just a heads up that you'll often find near-identical support and/or opposition in any kind of DB community on this type of subject when it comes to Buu from anime fans or manga fans. Take a look at this screenshot: Here Buu was at the complete mercy of Gotenks, and the fused saiyan hybrid was ready to blast the djinn into sub atomic particles with his ensuring kamehameha. And I believed it was possible too. This is my personal perception of this fight, but it is still true at the end of the day that Gotenks did got Buu into this vulnerable position. Whether you want to believe the follow-up is up to you, but I sure do. But that's the problem with Buu. He may look helpless...but it doesn't necessarily mean a thing. He may look beaten and crushed to a pulp...but physical appearances with him don't matter when he just effortlessly heals from it. As he does from the above screenshot right after Gotenks defuses. Hell, Majin Vegeta, an opponent inferior to Fat Buu in every conceivable way except in regards to a gruff, manly voice and the ability to grow a MOOSTACHE, quite literally blows him to smithereens and he regenerates none the worse for wear. Buu's screaming and everything as he's blown to squishy pink chunks...and then pops back up just fine. Gotenks also blasts him to smithereens much later, and then takes the EXTRA step of vaporizing the ludicrous gibs with Piccolo's help...and he STILL comes back from it all completely unfazed. For all we know Buu would've just screamed as Gotenks disintegrated him, then regenerated yet again, or maybe Gotenks did indeed have the power there to vaporize him. It's so hard to tell with this character. Personally I think he was holding back, given that he knew the real threat of Gohan was on the horizon. But once again this starts coming down to personal interpretations once we get the broad strokes out of the way with. ... I hate the Buu Saga.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 7, 2017 22:48:09 GMT
VoidSlayer That's fine if you want to just stick to the anime man. Just a heads up that you'll often find near-identical support and/or opposition in any kind of DB community on this type of subject when it comes to Buu from anime fans or manga fans.Take a look at this screenshot: Here Buu was at the complete mercy of Gotenks, and the fused saiyan hybrid was ready to blast the djinn into sub atomic particles with his ensuring kamehameha. And I believed it was possible too. This is my personal perception of this fight, but it is still true at the end of the day that Gotenks did got Buu into this vulnerable position. Whether you want to believe the follow-up is up to you, but I sure do. But that's the problem with Buu. He may look helpless...but it doesn't necessarily mean a thing. He may look beaten and crushed to a pulp...but physical appearances with him don't matter when he just effortlessly heals from it. As he does from the above screenshot right after Gotenks defuses. Hell, Majin Vegeta, an opponent inferior to Fat Buu in every conceivable way except in regards to a gruff, manly voice and the ability to grow a MOOSTACHE, quite literally blows him to smithereens and he regenerates none the worse for wear. Buu's screaming and everything as he's blown to squishy pink chunks...and then pops back up just fine. Gotenks also blasts him to smithereens much later, and then takes the EXTRA step of vaporizing the ludicrous gibs with Piccolo's help...and he STILL comes back from it all completely unfazed. For all we know Buu would've just screamed as Gotenks disintegrated him, then regenerated yet again, or maybe Gotenks did indeed have the power there to vaporize him. It's so hard to tell with this character. Personally I think he was holding back, given that he knew the real threat of Gohan was on the horizon. But once again this starts coming down to personal interpretations once we get the broad strokes out of the way with. ... I hate the Buu Saga.
After reading all that, i can see why it divides so much opinion, since almost every single point is debatable, and while many things are inferred, or even heavily inferred, very few (If any) points are undisputed/considered Canon. Even Xeno Black 's point about Gotenks ability to defeat Super Buu for good is open for interpretation, while taken at face value based of that scene it seems pretty irrefutable that Buu could not have survived if Gotenks had been able to launch his attack, the reality is it really could of gone either way since his regen was close to broken in terms of abilities. I can bloody well see why. So much inconsistency wrapped up in a saga that was never supposed to happen anyway.
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Post by fooshin on Aug 7, 2017 23:54:47 GMT
How the manga makes perfect sense to me: (Keep in mind that I don't believe in the outrageous multipliers that others do. To me 2x is an overwhelmingly huge increase.)
Kid buu = ssj3 goku pretty much exactly South supreme kai = around ssj3 goku Grand supreme kai = around ssj3 goku (hard to say on this one)
Fat buu = kid buu + south + grand but suppressed to kid buu levels due to incompatible magic energies.
This explains why there was power to create evil buu separate from good and why the combination of the 2 became much greater than the original fat.
Super buu = kid + south + grand unsupressed so around 3x ssj3 goku but minus one good fat buu contained within so at least twice (probably 2.5x) as strong as ssj3 goku.
Ssj1 gotenks is definitely < super buu but like goku I'm guessing he was probably a bit stronger than the original fat buu.
Ssj3 gotenks is at least as strong as super buu and might have been just barely strong enough to defeat him if it wasn't for his time limit.
Mystic gohan is a good 20% stronger than ssj3 gotenks (which is a lot btw)
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Post by Solus on Aug 10, 2017 0:03:54 GMT
VoidSlayerIt's a nice move of you to acknowledge that you've been proven wrong (kind of). And I enjoyed reading that discussion. But I swear to god, if you ever write again "could of/would of" instead of could have/would have, I'm going to find out who you are, where you live, and then I will travel to your place and bitchslap the shit out of you until you promise to never make that unforgivable mistake again. Sorry for being a grammar nazi but your English is otherwise very fine, so I thought you would be interested in some good old correction.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 10, 2017 6:04:54 GMT
VoidSlayer It's a nice move of you to acknowledge that you've been proven wrong (kind of). And I enjoyed reading that discussion. But I swear to god, if you ever write again "could of/would of" instead of could have/would have, I'm going to find out who you are, where you live, and then I will travel to your place and bitchslap the shit out of you until you promise to never make that unforgivable mistake again. Sorry for being a grammar nazi but your English is otherwise very fine, so I thought you would be interested in some good old correction. Aussie Slang mate. Get on it. Of course it's not proper grammar but when you're talking/typing fast it's pretty classic Aussie to shorten words or write as you pronounce them. 'of' should never be used as a verb of course, but when i type fast i tend to cut corners. So sue me.
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Post by Xeno Black on Aug 10, 2017 6:12:13 GMT
VoidSlayer It's a nice move of you to acknowledge that you've been proven wrong (kind of). And I enjoyed reading that discussion. But I swear to god, if you ever write again "could of/would of" instead of could have/would have, I'm going to find out who you are, where you live, and then I will travel to your place and bitchslap the shit out of you until you promise to never make that unforgivable mistake again. Sorry for being a grammar nazi but your English is otherwise very fine, so I thought you would be interested in some good old correction. Aussie Slang mate. Get on it. Of course it's not proper grammar but when you're talking/typing fast it's pretty classic Aussie to shorten words or write as you pronounce them. 'of' should never be used as a verb of course, but when i type fast i tend to cut corners. So sue me. Not to derail this thread, but god all of the Aussie members on this forum are awesome. If I was OzzyManReviews, I would personally pay your way to Sydney and have a cold beer with ya. Cheers!
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 10, 2017 10:32:17 GMT
Aussie Slang mate. Get on it. Of course it's not proper grammar but when you're talking/typing fast it's pretty classic Aussie to shorten words or write as you pronounce them. 'of' should never be used as a verb of course, but when i type fast i tend to cut corners. So sue me. Not to derail this thread, but god all of the Aussie members on this forum are awesome. If I was OzzyManReviews, I would personally pay your way to Sydney and have a cold beer with ya. Cheers!As long it's not your pissweak American beer, you got yourself a deal, Xeno Black
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Post by supernekomajin on Aug 10, 2017 16:42:31 GMT
Damn, I never thought this would last this long.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 11, 2017 15:31:20 GMT
Damn, I never thought this would last this long. Welcome to the Buu Saga.
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