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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 4, 2023 17:30:12 GMT
Feel that is a mess they needlessly made for themselves by making it clear Gohan did zero training what so ever since the defeat of Buu but still is intended as the top dog cause of how Salagir tweaked the Mystic power. Fans of Goku & Vegeta probably only feel more miffed that decades of training amounted to still lagging behind a guy focused on his doctorate just cause he sat down and an old guy did a dance around him. I personally would've liked Gohan keeping some activity least in his Great Saiyaman stuff to least keep in fighting shape but that is splitting hairs. I would have also preferred Gohan needed to keep up his training just in a case of a new threat showed up. Not to the extent of Goku or Vegeta mind you, but show him far better balanced with spending time with his family, holding down a job, and working out every now and again. Honestly I still prefer this Gohan and how he was handled over canon though. My hope is that following the end of this tournament, Gohan realizes that there are still stronger opponents than him in other universes and should keep up on his training. Gohan could start training with Pan and Piccolo even if it's only to keep himself from getting rusty.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 4, 2023 19:14:14 GMT
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did Salagir ever explain why Cell, who was equal to Gohan in power, lost to SSJ3 Vegeta? Did it really come down to Cell only being at SSJ2 level in strength and having his core attacked?
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Post by godjacob on Dec 4, 2023 19:27:16 GMT
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did Salagir ever explain why Cell, who was equal to Gohan in power, lost to SSJ3 Vegeta? Did it really come down to Cell only being at SSJ2 level in strength and having his core attacked? The whole fight was a giant dick measuring "I am taking this less seriously than you!" standoff between Cell and Vegeta, with Vegeta quickly then going SSj3 to one shot Cell's core before he could up his power in response. Cell took too long to regenerate and Vegeta was declared the winner. It was an annoying fight and a massive letdown but it was given a reason...a crappy reason, but a reason.
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Post by jbame on Dec 5, 2023 14:27:32 GMT
Sorry if this has been asked before, but did Salagir ever explain why Cell, who was equal to Gohan in power, lost to SSJ3 Vegeta? Did it really come down to Cell only being at SSJ2 level in strength and having his core attacked? The whole fight was a giant dick measuring "I am taking this less seriously than you!" standoff between Cell and Vegeta, with Vegeta quickly then going SSj3 to one shot Cell's core before he could up his power in response. Cell took too long to regenerate and Vegeta was declared the winner. It was an annoying fight and a massive letdown but it was given a reason...a crappy reason, but a reason. Cell can't regenerate without the Core, the core was destroyed by Vegeta and that's why Vegeta won. He was revived later. We've seen the core tank far more powerful stuff than "disintegrated in Vegeta's hand" but we can let that one pass, maybe vegeta used his 110% on destroying the core and it wasn't shown properly. The fight is disappointing either way.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 6, 2023 16:59:38 GMT
The whole fight was a giant dick measuring "I am taking this less seriously than you!" standoff between Cell and Vegeta, with Vegeta quickly then going SSj3 to one shot Cell's core before he could up his power in response. Cell took too long to regenerate and Vegeta was declared the winner. It was an annoying fight and a massive letdown but it was given a reason...a crappy reason, but a reason. Cell can't regenerate without the Core, the core was destroyed by Vegeta and that's why Vegeta won. He was revived later. We've seen the core tank far more powerful stuff than "disintegrated in Vegeta's hand" but we can let that one pass, maybe vegeta used his 110% on destroying the core and it wasn't shown properly. The fight is disappointing either way. Not really. Gohan used a wide attack on Cell (probably the only time Cell's core got hit by a more powerful attack than what Vegeta did, except for Bra who successfully destroyed Cell's core), Vegeta's was heavily concentrated, pound for pound Vegeta's blast was as powerful as Gohan's (except smaller but focused on the Core).
Besides, Vegeta ripped Cell's heart out of his body effectively, that would kill just about anybody (well not Cell, but Vegeta's blast was an extra measure).
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 6, 2023 19:28:08 GMT
Wonder where we'd rank Goku and Vegeta's new forms? I'd say around Mystic tier though whether or not their above Gohan raw power wise is up for debate. Nothing really backs up my reasoning I just think that makes the most sense. Considering that Goku mocked Vegeta when Bra powered up in Ssj1 about how she was stronger than them I wouldn't say that they are stronger than Gohan. However, Goku could have ment his well known SSJ3 power and not the new one of which he couldn't be sure that Vegeta had it too. Oh and btw: Considering Vegeta needs a lot of concentration to enter his "transformation" his claim to kill Hatchyak was bougus. He only had SSJ3 at his disposal and that surely wouldn't have been enough. If Vegeta did step in, how did he plan on defeating a SSJ Vegetto tier level opponent like Hatchyak? Even with his new "natural SSJ" form, he could at most be Mystic tier (very well could still be in high SSJ3 tier for all we know). There's nothing Vegeta would be able to do that would touch Hatchyak.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 6, 2023 19:40:24 GMT
Was there ever a concrete answer as to how strong Gast, Broly (U3), and Hatchiyak actually are? It seems crazy that Gast, who matches SSJ3 U13 Vegeta blow-for-blow, is able to fatally injure a opponent at the SSJ Vegetto tier, whilst also being unable to injure LSSJ Ghost Broly.
Edit: I also wish Salagir would give us an updated power scale of where he places his characters now. He's stated before that the old power tiers are wrong because they're outdated.
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Post by jbame on Dec 6, 2023 22:05:43 GMT
Was there ever a concrete answer as to how strong Gast, Broly (U3), and Hatchiyak actually are? It seems crazy that Gast, who matches SSJ3 U13 Vegeta blow-for-blow, is able to fatally injure a opponent at the SSJ Vegetto tier, whilst also being unable to injure LSSJ Ghost Broly. Edit: I also wish Salagir would give us an updated power scale of where he places his characters now. He's stated before that the old power tiers are wrong because they're outdated. Hatchiyak being SSJ Vegetto tier is novel-only. In the novel the difference between SSJ3 Vegeta and Gast is compared to Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, this means that Gast was not struggling with that Vegeta at all in the novel (i dont remember if this also means Gast is Buutenks tier). Also in the novel, Gast tries to fight against Hatchiyak but gets immediately outclassed. It was because Hatchiyak is vulnerable right when he is about to fire that Gast could defeat him. LSSJ is invincible in Multiverse canon. Any character, no matter if Kid Goku or Super Saiyan Blue 4 Gogito was unable to harm him.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 6, 2023 22:16:41 GMT
Was there ever a concrete answer as to how strong Gast, Broly (U3), and Hatchiyak actually are? It seems crazy that Gast, who matches SSJ3 U13 Vegeta blow-for-blow, is able to fatally injure a opponent at the SSJ Vegetto tier, whilst also being unable to injure LSSJ Ghost Broly. Edit: I also wish Salagir would give us an updated power scale of where he places his characters now. He's stated before that the old power tiers are wrong because they're outdated. Hatchiyak being SSJ Vegetto tier is novel-only. In the novel the difference between SSJ3 Vegeta and Gast is compared to Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, this means that Gast was not struggling with that Vegeta at all in the novel (i dont remember if this also means Gast is Buutenks tier). Also in the novel, Gast tries to fight against Hatchiyak but gets immediately outclassed. It was because Hatchiyak is vulnerable right when he is about to fire that Gast could defeat him. LSSJ is invincible in Multiverse canon. Any character, no matter if Kid Goku or Super Saiyan Blue 4 Gogito was unable to harm him. The novel itself is questionably canon to DBM's comic itself and might not be the best reference point.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 7, 2023 0:07:47 GMT
Was there ever a concrete answer as to how strong Gast, Broly (U3), and Hatchiyak actually are? It seems crazy that Gast, who matches SSJ3 U13 Vegeta blow-for-blow, is able to fatally injure a opponent at the SSJ Vegetto tier, whilst also being unable to injure LSSJ Ghost Broly. Edit: I also wish Salagir would give us an updated power scale of where he places his characters now. He's stated before that the old power tiers are wrong because they're outdated. Hatchiyak being SSJ Vegetto tier is novel-only. In the novel the difference between SSJ3 Vegeta and Gast is compared to Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, this means that Gast was not struggling with that Vegeta at all in the novel (i dont remember if this also means Gast is Buutenks tier). Also in the novel, Gast tries to fight against Hatchiyak but gets immediately outclassed. It was because Hatchiyak is vulnerable right when he is about to fire that Gast could defeat him. LSSJ is invincible in Multiverse canon. Any character, no matter if Kid Goku or Super Saiyan Blue 4 Gogito was unable to harm him. I forgot about the invulnerability hax that Broly has... Such a stupid decision by Salagir. Broly would have been just fine on his own without being made invulnerable to boot
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Post by godjacob on Dec 7, 2023 3:14:15 GMT
Hatchiyak being SSJ Vegetto tier is novel-only. In the novel the difference between SSJ3 Vegeta and Gast is compared to Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, this means that Gast was not struggling with that Vegeta at all in the novel (i dont remember if this also means Gast is Buutenks tier). Also in the novel, Gast tries to fight against Hatchiyak but gets immediately outclassed. It was because Hatchiyak is vulnerable right when he is about to fire that Gast could defeat him. LSSJ is invincible in Multiverse canon. Any character, no matter if Kid Goku or Super Saiyan Blue 4 Gogito was unable to harm him. I forgot about the invulnerability hax that Broly has... Such a stupid decision by Salagir. Broly would have been just fine on his own without being made invulnerable to boot Ah but have you failed to account for Broly being the coolest guy? How else can we show he is the strongest there is if we don't make him invincible? /s
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Post by jbame on Dec 7, 2023 22:41:07 GMT
Hatchiyak being SSJ Vegetto tier is novel-only. In the novel the difference between SSJ3 Vegeta and Gast is compared to Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, this means that Gast was not struggling with that Vegeta at all in the novel (i dont remember if this also means Gast is Buutenks tier). Also in the novel, Gast tries to fight against Hatchiyak but gets immediately outclassed. It was because Hatchiyak is vulnerable right when he is about to fire that Gast could defeat him. LSSJ is invincible in Multiverse canon. Any character, no matter if Kid Goku or Super Saiyan Blue 4 Gogito was unable to harm him. The novel itself is questionably canon to DBM's comic itself and might not be the best reference point. Whether the novel is canon to the comic or not, he was using Novel statements as a basis for his question, and the novel does have an answer for it.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 8, 2023 3:34:02 GMT
I think XXI needs to be put at SSJ3-Tier/Mystic-Tier alongside Goku, Vegeta and Gast. XXI destroyed a Buu's head yes, but Goku and Vegeta literally destroyed a bunch of Buu heads at SSJ3, is SSJ3 Goku == SSJ2 Vegetto? No. And XXI being hellbent on avoiding showing his true power signals that he isn't nearly as powerful as Vegetto and Zen Buu as far as physical strength goes, that Vegetto could actually match or beat XXI in his base. Hence XXI is nowhere near SSJ2-Vegetto. Just like Gast isn't near SSJ2-Vegetto because otherwise Ghost SSJ3 Vegeta wouldn't even make him flinch and even Hatiyack's attack wouldn't have made Gast flinch. Salagir did make a point to say that pure power isn't the only thing that matters, this is a theme becoming increasingly relevant and it even plays on Vegetto's insecurities since his victories in just about every fight he has ever one is based on the fact that he is ridiculously strong (so to him, his strength is everything, that's why he was practically terrified when Gast used magic to shut down his SSJ3 form). It's part of why Vegetto is become increasingly grouchy and bitter. So wouldn't it make sense that the top four fighters in the semi-finals are actually on relatively even playing field power-wise (high-SSJ3-tier to Mystic-tier)? Goku and Vegeta being Martial Arts Masters while Gast and XXI are more of a Mystic Arts Master (though Gast is quite capable of both). I feel like that dynamic would not work if Gast and XXI were SSJ2-Vegetto level at all and Goku wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance if they were that powerful. Gast and XXI being mystic-tier makes a potential Goku victory in the cards (and even if he loses, it would at least be a good fight, I severely doubt Goku keeping up with anyone that is SSJ2-Vegetto tier). Plus honestly XXI and Gast being really good at magic still means that Goku is gonna have a very hard time against them anyways and can still lose anyways but at least this way Goku puts up a good fight.
Plus it would actually be really cool in my opinion of the four best fighters just happen to be at the same level of power, makes the fights interesting. Goku vs Vegeta is already my favorite fight so far (though I worry if Gast vs XXI will be any good since XXI's fights have been lame and XXI likes to take the easy way out, just like a certain girl in U16 we all know and love except he uses magic and gets help from his friend).
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 8, 2023 12:05:44 GMT
The novel itself is questionably canon to DBM's comic itself and might not be the best reference point. Whether the novel is canon to the comic or not, he was using Novel statements as a basis for his question, and the novel does have an answer for it. Is there a huge power difference between Gast in the comic vs the novel?
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Post by godjacob on Dec 8, 2023 17:38:45 GMT
Whether the novel is canon to the comic or not, he was using Novel statements as a basis for his question, and the novel does have an answer for it. Is there a huge power difference between Gast in the comic vs the novel? Gast in the comic was presented as someone who fur sure was gonna die before Broly randomly decided to attack the crowd and at times seemed to struggle vs. even SSj3 Vegeta where as the novel tried to suggest he used an "illusion" to give himself the opening. So the novel suggests he could've used his magic in this spot to save himself where as the comic implies he was visibly screwed beyond his power.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Dec 8, 2023 18:30:48 GMT
Is there a huge power difference between Gast in the comic vs the novel? Gast in the comic was presented as someone who fur sure was gonna die before Broly randomly decided to attack the crowd and at times seemed to struggle vs. even SSj3 Vegeta where as the novel tried to suggest he used an "illusion" to give himself the opening. So the novel suggests he could've used his magic in this spot to save himself where as the comic implies he was visibly screwed beyond his power. Seems like yet another scenario in which I wish Salagir would chime in on and clarify...
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Post by jbame on Dec 9, 2023 18:54:45 GMT
Whether the novel is canon to the comic or not, he was using Novel statements as a basis for his question, and the novel does have an answer for it. Is there a huge power difference between Gast in the comic vs the novel? I think it's implied that Gast was dominating the fight against SSJ3 vegeta, comparing the gap between the two to the gap between Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, and that's about the only concrete statement.
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Post by drewsaga on Dec 9, 2023 20:02:33 GMT
Is there a huge power difference between Gast in the comic vs the novel? I think it's implied that Gast was dominating the fight against SSJ3 vegeta, comparing the gap between the two to the gap between Mystic Gohan and Buutenks, and that's about the only concrete statement. Yeah, Gast was most definitely stronger than Ghost SSJ3 Vegeta and really only got screwed after Ghost LSSJ Broly (who is haxxed) showed up, so maybe he is on par with Ultimate/Mystic Goku and Vegeta of U18? I think if Raichi only had Ghost SSJ3 Vegeta in his cards that he'd be screwed.
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Post by mysticbluegoku on Dec 18, 2023 15:59:30 GMT
There's lots of statements that don't make any sense. Novel is full of weird stuff. Salagir's old tier list is plain weird. And Gotenks doubling his power makes him go from below Ultimate Gohan to comparable to SSJ Vegetto? Yeah, no.
I'd say: SSJ2 Bra > SSJ Vegetto > SSJ3 Gotenks >> Ultimate Gohan
I remember Salagir saying SSJ2 Bra > SSJ Vegetto, and the Ginyu-Bra fiasco agrees. I'm lowballing Gotenks to right below SSJ Vegetto, but still rivaling. Not sure how SSJ Bra vs Ultimate Gohan goes.
A huge missing link for me is SSJ3 Goku. He seems to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks (His reacion to Gotenks' power up is along the lines of "He surpassed us, Vegeta!"), I feel he's weaker than Ultimate Gohan but no hard evidence.
It's funny when you see how this differs from some canon scaling. Gohan and Gotenks shoulde be at least 10x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in DBZ, but it feels like they were only a couple times stronger in DBM for Goku to catch up while barely surpassing 100% Freeza in base.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 20, 2023 3:57:27 GMT
There's lots of statements that don't make any sense. Novel is full of weird stuff. Salagir's old tier list is plain weird. And Gotenks doubling his power makes him go from below Ultimate Gohan to comparable to SSJ Vegetto? Yeah, no. I'd say: SSJ2 Bra > SSJ Vegetto > SSJ3 Gotenks >> Ultimate Gohan I remember Salagir saying SSJ2 Bra > SSJ Vegetto, and the Ginyu-Bra fiasco agrees. I'm lowballing Gotenks to right below SSJ Vegetto, but still rivaling. Not sure how SSJ Bra vs Ultimate Gohan goes. A huge missing link for me is SSJ3 Goku. He seems to be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks (His reacion to Gotenks' power up is along the lines of "He surpassed us, Vegeta!"), I feel he's weaker than Ultimate Gohan but no hard evidence. It's funny when you see how this differs from some canon scaling. Gohan and Gotenks shoulde be at least 10x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in DBZ, but it feels like they were only a couple times stronger in DBM for Goku to catch up while barely surpassing 100% Freeza in base. Do you happen to have a copy of said tier list? I remember seeing one way back in the day but can't find it anymore lol
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