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Post by Son Pan on May 8, 2018 4:36:27 GMT
I think the main reason for why Freeza feared the Super Saiyan is because the legend seems to describe an invincible warrior with no equal in the universe. The legend exaggerates the awesome power of the Super Saiyan. Freeza wouldn't actually know how strong one would be. Even though he himself thinks the legend is insane, I think a small part of him thought it might be real and thought it was smarter to eliminate the possibility of it altogether rather than just train to get stronger. I like to call it the reverse Z-fighter method. They trained to fight the androids and hoped they would be strong enough to defeat them when they had the chance to use the Dragon Balls to find Gero and eliminate him before he finished. The Z-fighters gambled they could reach a level high enough to defeat an unknown enemy, while Freeza took the safer bet of eliminating the the threat before it springs.
I don't think Freeza being able to get stronger through training would invalidate why he wouldn't destroy the planet before it became a threat or fearing the legend might be true. Freeza might think the Super Saiyan is exactly like how Salagir portrayed Broly and fear no amount of training could overcome it.
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Post by Axalon on May 8, 2018 8:44:29 GMT
I think the main reason for why Freeza feared the Super Saiyan is because the legend seems to describe an invincible warrior with no equal in the universe. The legend exaggerates the awesome power of the Super Saiyan. Freeza wouldn't actually know how strong one would be. Even though he himself thinks the legend is insane, I think a small part of him thought it might be real and thought it was smarter to eliminate the possibility of it altogether rather than just train to get stronger. I like to call it the reverse Z-fighter method. They trained to fight the androids and hoped they would be strong enough to defeat them when they had the chance to use the Dragon Balls to find Gero and eliminate him before he finished. The Z-fighters gambled they could reach a level high enough to defeat an unknown enemy, while Freeza took the safer bet of eliminating the the threat before it springs. I don't think Freeza being able to get stronger through training would invalidate why he wouldn't destroy the planet before it became a threat or fearing the legend might be true. Freeza might think the Super Saiyan is exactly like how Salagir portrayed Broly and fear no amount of training could overcome it. I agree! If we're talking purely DBM's own retconned version of Broly, I'd say the legend is fairly spot on by describing DBM Broly to a T. Broly is an invincible warrior who herp-derp literally cannot be harmed in any form or fashion and whose power level herp-derp exponentially increases merely by the act of being alive, no training or magic required. Just him being in an ice cube while powered up (...somehow? I still have no idea how that even works) took him from his Cell Saga self to put him on par with SS2 Vegito and on course to SS3 Vegito as the battle continued. Even if we aren't talking about Broly, just the regular run-of-the-mill Super Saiyan represented a notch above his that he could never actually surpass. So even though only his family actually surpassed him in power at the time I agree that Frieza did the smart choice and decided to just eliminate the problem at the source. Problem is this is DB, and the smart choice often doesn't seem to be the correct choice in the long run, frustratingly enough. The correct choice seems to be to keep bashing your head against the wall until the wall shatters against your stubbornness. For instance, Bulma's idea of just killing Gero before he can make the Androids is the smart choice, but means that Babadi would've killed them all to revive Buu later on without any contest whatsoever without the Androids and Cell to motivate them far beyond their current limitations. This of course isn't counting DBM's different universes where it becomes a bit murkier but arguably U18 is still overall the correct chain of events (with a little luck added) even though they aren't the most powerful or the most technologically advanced. Bringing this back to Frieza, if he had simply decided to not skip leg day he may very well have been the one to discover the four-armed augmentation form and ensured or at the very least prolonged his own survival as opposed to the smart choice of just getting rid of the Saiyans.
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Post by iron leaf on May 13, 2018 21:29:14 GMT
I think the representation of frostdemons in DBM is accurate at this point. Thank you guys for this inspiring discussion. But I believe it is easy for DBM outsiders to think otherwise, especially when those newcomers read DBM after they watched "Resurrection F" and the DBS anime. Now, I want to hear your opinions on the "Coola being the absolute loser" thing. I just read Fanfiction chapter 135, the fight Coola vs Tidar & Videl. It was pretty obvious Coola would lose, but how he lost let me scratch my head a little bit. That's pretty brutal to be knocked down by Videl. That's almost the same level of humiliation as Nappa vs Freeza. (Ok, we don't know how powerful the training with East Kaioshin & Kibito was with the Z-sword. We are definitely lacking a ton of informaton about U9 at this point) Coola seems to be the punching back of the Frostdemons even more than his brother. Freeza at least accomplished something (destroying Namek, killing Goku). Coola didn't won a single fight in DBM. At this point, I would say he didn't even win a single argument. (Maybe the older fanfiction chapters, I read those chapters long ago) Edit: I loved the Cooler-movie remake. It made Cooler look a bit intimidating for at least half a chapter. Nonetheless, Cooler is portrayed quite as a complete loser in this fan-manga. Justified?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on May 14, 2018 0:29:11 GMT
I think the representation of frostdemons in DBM is accurate at this point. Thank you guys for this inspiring discussion. But I believe it is easy for DBM outsiders to think otherwise, especially when those newcomers read DBM after they watched "Resurrection F" and the DBS anime. Now, I want to hear your opinions on the "Coola being the absolute loser" thing. I just read Fanfiction chapter 135, the fight Coola vs Tidar & Videl. It was pretty obvious Coola would lose, but how he lost let me scratch my head a little bit. That's pretty brutal to be knocked down by Videl. That's almost the same level of humiliation as Nappa vs Freeza. (Ok, we don't know how powerful the training with East Kaioshin & Kibito was with the Z-sword. We are definitely lacking a ton of informaton about U9 at this point) Coola seems to be the punching back of the Frostdemons even more than his brother. Freeza at least accomplished something (destroying Namek, killing Goku). Coola didn't won a single fight in DBM. At this point, I would say he didn't even win a single argument. (Maybe the older fanfiction chapters, I read those chapters long ago) I loved the Cooler-movie remake. It made Cooler look a bit intimidating for at least half a chapter. Nonetheless, Cooler is portrayed quite as a complete loser in this fan-manga. Justified? Videl did use a "Kaioken Next Level" against Cold's first restriction form, after which he decided to power to his final form. That's at least above 2x her strength and still she could handle Third form Cold evenly. I assume in that novel chapter, Cooler was in his augmentation form, but otherwise Videl pulling a maxed out Kaioken and a surprise sneak attack to Cooler doesn't sound that farfetched. Unless I'm missing some other significant detail, in which case, ignore this paragraph. Still, the rest of the time Cooler was shown in the comic, his one match against Future Trunks, the first night scene, and the time Vegito confronted Ginyu Bra (and also Cooler and Frieza cheering on their fake dad Ginyu against Bra), and the scenes ya listed iron leaf , let's take a crack at them. BackstoryCooler was nothing but a copy of Frieza, created for movie purposes. At the time, the only thing that needed to be established was that he was Frieza's brother. The fans could've assumed he had his fair share of tyrannical acts like Frieza did, just not shown to cut down introduction time. In DBM's version of the 5th movie, though the first half wasn't shown, we get to the waterfall staredown, and Goku already in SS form. This is already a major improvement for Cooler's power. Now skip ahead to him about to destroy Earth... I mean, unless we make a divergence here for the list of universes, Cooler kinda has to lose here so we can get the Goku story. Not much to say here tbh, but yeah, the special was enough to show "a stronger Cooler" than the actual movie did. TournamentHis only match in the comic was against Future Trunks. Had he won this against the "Ultra Super Saiyan" Trunks, that would've caused a major upset for DBM. Even by some miracle he did beat Trunks, his next opponent would've been against Vegeta, not really much interaction to explore with this one as opposed to Vegeta's son who matured from the days of the Android Saga. If we were to mix up the matches for Cooler to at least have one victory, the only ones applicable are the gag universe in which they drop out (like Nekomajin did with the fake bets), Tapion (if he can beat before he summons hirudegarn), henchmen from Universe 8, humans from U9 (this would've been good, but I think Salagir added them after Cooler's first match, so it would've been too late to make such a match), U10 fodders, a possible android whose power fell to Namek-SS Goku (but that's pushing too much, I'll leave it out), Jiren IKL but that's even more disrespectful of a win... yeah Cooler doesn't really have anyone to compete against, at least against Trunks, Trunks would finally defeat the complete set of Frost Demons. Even if he got Buu's gift for the psychic fight, it still would've been the same result as Frieza's match with Goku. If he got another transformation, then that's possibly the worst thing that could happen to Cooler's character (bc Buu helps make the match entertaining, not change who the victor would be). Simply put, there's too few options for Cooler to be placed with that could make an entertaining fight, even if he did get a single victory, it'd be from some sort of bullshit... like a drop out... or someone who lost a huge percentage of their power... or a fodder character fight that doesn't add much to Cooler's character. Your spoiled images... because I have no better title to place here.FTrunks vs Cooler I already covered above. Vegito stopping Cooler? Well it was either that, or they'd have a funny scene with Vegito playing therapist (for someone who feels left out all the time) but legit, we needed the whole "SOMEONE FROM UNIVERSE 8 IS NOT IN THEIR TRUE BODY!" but preeety sure if Vegito were to switch places with Buu and tell that to Frieza, he's basically even beyond God. No, we needed Buu to tell Frieza about Ginyu, the only other "good cop" would be Gast, but I think he's outside standing asleep (I know what I typed). Nobody else would've been awake, at least not to my knowledge, to tell the two Frost bros off. It was moot anyway, the balls were in a different universe, should Cooler have checked nonstop until the morning, or should someone have stopped him in his tracks early on? (Honest question, I don't see either of the two situations any better than the other). North Kaioshin vs the Frost family. Well the Kaioshins are able to defeat Frieza in a single blow, he might break a sweat against Cooler... maybe? But that's talking about in today's age, otherwise the image you've shown was when they were even younger (Age 712. At least 50 years before the "canon" event of the namek saga). Cooler vs Buu's rampage?... Yeah "nobody" could escape it, so not really contributing to Cooler's butt monkey status. Ghost Cooler and Ghost Frieza?... they weren't dealing with the Average Prince of all Saiyans... Vegeta U13 so meh, no comment. They were meant to be the measuring sticks. Now Gast vs Cooler? That's definitely not fair, he managed to kill Frieza after doing some paralysis technique and then a single blast ended Frieza. Since namek to the fight with Cooler, I would imagine he had time to train a bit. At least his struggle with Cold made sure Gast wasn't too OP during this time. [This one definitely made Cooler look like another punching bag, but it makes sense Gast had to defeat all of the frost demons in order, so... nothing much could've been done imo.] Vegito (with Ginyu-Bra)... yeah that one was a punching bag, but both Frieza and Cooler took a slapping from Vegito who's already a dickhead, so that's not speaking on "Cooler is a loser" but on "Vegito is a dickhead." And last but not least, against U16 Piccolo. Well the fact that he managed to dodge the beams better than his swiss cheese brother is already good enough, and having lost an arm and able to nearly kill off an exhausted U18 Pickle? Dude that's epic! If U16 Piccolo didn't step in time, Gohan would've gone Mystic Super Saiyan 2 Pug Gohan Blanco, we finally would've lost one for the heroes side! But sadly, having an identical slug man, fully healed from Gohan's blast earlier (thanks to a senzu) then it's no contest he could've taken out a weakened Cooler at this point. Shit, that took too many lines. Gonna put some spoiler tags in now. Hopefully they don't fuck up again. Edit: Finally got rid of all those "[/div]"'s that somehow ruined my spoiler tags. Phew
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Post by iron leaf on May 14, 2018 13:39:07 GMT
Edit: I have no problem if there are loser-characters in a story at all. I just wanted to speak out the Cooler dilemma in DBM.
The Retro Kakarotto You sum up and elaborate my nitpicks very well Now, that I read my comment again, I'm really focusing on the strength/power part too much I guess. It's definitely correct that Cooler had to lose against those people he was fighting in DBM, according to the DBZ continuity and DBM retcons & own lore exploration on Frostdemons and other things. The very first fight against Future Trunks already put up the ground work how Cooler will be portrayed for the rest of the comic. Furthermore, Cooler lacks some personal connection to any opponent or hero in the series. But he doesn't contribute more to the big ensemble other than he's "just" Freeza's brother and tags along whenever there is an opportunity. I had to emphasize, Cooler being on the loser's side wasn't bothering me much at all. And I wanted to showcase how Cooler was in fact always losing his fights. But I see some lack in Cooler's character development. Yes, yes I'm scrutinizing Salagir's decision why the apparent Freeza clone hasn't good development in DBM at all. There's a saying "No humility without Humiliation". And I don't mean actual humility in this case. It should describe that a character undergoes some change after some interactions. It can be anything, after a fight, after a conversation, after realising something, etc. Let me explain. Newton's 3rd law of motion: Action equals reaction. You could apply it to social phenomenon as well. And every action should follow a reaction even in a fan manga. And I don't see much from Cooler in this case. Cooler's first appearance in DBM chronology He's quite interesting. It almost seems that he's in charge of making plans in the family. But I will write it down as Cooler's entrance in DBM. Cooler lost against Future Trunks wasn't a surprise. However, Future Trunks humiliated him not by simple defeat but he let Cooler purposely the opportunity to attack him, twice, and at the end he spared his life solely because Cooler wasn't worth it. Cooler wasn't a threat at all, to nobody. (My interpretation) Do we have some kind of reaction out of Cooler about his loss against Trunks and the humiliation? Yes, he's apparently sulking with some wine The Frostdemons realised real quick that they are the butt-monkeys here with some twisted slapstick for Freeza and Cooler, that will come more frequently. But at least they get the priorities sorted out real quick afterwards. After Cold transformed, Cooler was actually concerned. He planned to overthrow Cold someday and with the current situation he needs to adapt. (Probably Cooler most interesting character trait, his motivation to reign the empire himself someday) So, Cooler is shown to be ruthless in regard of his own family members. He has motivations himself rather than being just Freeza's brother. Nonetheless, he has plans to kill his father, Cooler still folows his fathers orders for appearances' sake. One fatal mistake. One that follows several different universes. Missing the opportunity to terminate a potential future threat. The amount of arrogance, similar to Freeza's. He is attentive, and can draw conclusions surprisingly well. He realised Cell and the Forstdemons are alike. And he rather quick assumed that Gast was piloting Freeza's ship. (Furthermore, U7 Cooler proved that he in fact is capable of being a ruler) But then again we have scenes likes this. Cooler forgot for a moment about his father actually being Ginyu. Freeza told him before already. So, is Cooler an "occasionally" attentive person? This was imo, the best opportunity to develop Cooler's character. Cooler always wanted to overthrow his father one day. He got concerned that he could never defeat Cold with the new augmentations forms. So, King Cold was/is the strongest being in universe 8. He rules an empire and has 2 sons. One of them will become the new ruler of the Empire and thus of the universe when King Cold dies. And now this scene, Freezer has just revealed to his brother that the being that governs universe 8 is no longer in Cold's body, whether it's their father or Captain Ginyu. Freezer has inevitably made his brother understand that their father is no longer the ruler and one of them will take over the succession. And, as is customary in royal families, it will come to fratricide just for you to come to power yourself. And as shown on page 1082 (U18 Special), Cooler was ready to kill his family members anyway. Now it will come. If the comic goes as far as showing the story of each universe after the tournament, we'll certainly see a fight between Freezer and Cooler. Perhaps during the remainder of the tournament both will forge intrigues against their brother.This was my prediction (when the page was released) on what Cooler could do from this point on. Unfortunately, we don't see what Cooler plans himself for the future. Both Cooler and Freeza immediately getting posessed by Babidi and then they die. And here we are again, what I think about Cooler. Being humiliated is not so tragic if you learn from the defeat. Cooler is at this point still just a Memetic Loser. He seems to be most known to be Freeza's brother and that was the initial idea when Toei made Cooler. The character is not really memorable. He is weak and unskilled in comparison to so many other characters and at this point doesn't even gain more skills through character development (Only with Majin). I'm really questioning Salagir's decision why he included Cooler at all. There's no concepts about nasty parental favoritism in case of Cold, Cooler and Freeza or anything else to provide enough interesting things to trigger some conflicts within or beyond the frostdemons family business, so Cooler could have more to do. So much work to include Cooler into DBM, just to have him doing nothing beside being a loser. SO, it must be on purpose. Cooler's theme is being a loser and not improving at all. Maybe Salagir did it to prove that Freeza is the one and only special frostdemon (powerwise & characterwise) beside Cooler and Cold (Cold is long dead and before he died he was not interesting or special at all). But then we have the Hanasia fanfic with Snower, one of the best developed characters in that fanfic and a real provocation to Freeza's characterization in general.
The only glimmer of light for Cooler's reputation to improve somehow, is the U9 storyline. I liked Chewy's Copy&Paste comic about U9 so much because we see an actual Cooler pursuing his own goals with resolve (Ruler of the empire). Axalon Those name puns. They will never end Let me try. How does a cannibal Cooler sees his brother as? Freezer burn. OMG, that's so terrible
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Post by Axalon on May 14, 2018 13:57:30 GMT
I'm really questioning Salagir's decision why he included Cooler at all. Because he's really, really cool.
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Post by Son Pan on May 15, 2018 4:22:39 GMT
Dragon Ball Multiverse did an excellent job fixing Cooler's Revenge story and fitting it into Dragon Ball canon. Having Cooler in his true form being stronger than Goku's base is how the character should have been. The movie makes Cooler seem a lot weaker than Freeza in the same form and makes it debatable if Cooler's fifth form/augmented form is stronger than Freeza depending on if people subscribe to Goku being a lot stronger than he was on Namek or not. In the Cooler special Goku needs to go Super Saiyan to gain the upper hand on Cooler in his base form. Cooler using his augmented form can overwhelm Super Saiyan Goku who is definitely stronger than he was on Namek when he defeated Freeza It had everything that made Cooler stand out from Freeza, being the hard working brother who trained to gain more power and have his cool fifth form dominate a Super Saiyan for a bit before Goku used Instant Transmission to get a spam attack to seriously damage Cooler enough to get the win. It was one of my favorite specials, even if the story was condensed. It did give Cooler a bit more history, layers, and some great moments.
Other than that Cooler hasn't really done much. He has no person story arc and hasn't done anything notable to the tournament. His role was to show how far his family has fallen to the other universes and allow Trunks to gain a win over all three family members of Freeza's family. It is hard. I feel like we're going back to the Frost Demons/Freeza's family lack importance and if they are intended to be jokes or people are exaggerating that claim. Right now Cooler and Freeza are about as important as U13 Nappa. They are just there but have no real story to them. We thought they would get a story with the Ginyu subplot, but we didn't really see Freeza do much with the information and when it looked like he and Cooler would make an alliance with Vegetto to oust Ginyu they were knocked out and Vegetto fixed it on his own.
With the brothers staying on their same level we have problem of it making Piccolo look weaker than he is by resorting to such a powerful and energy consuming technique to kill Freeza. I still feel like Universe 8 is both a joke universe and a plot important universe and trying to balance both aspects doesn't really work for it. If it was a joke universe then Cooler's non impact on the plot wouldn't be noticeable because he would be gone by now.
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Post by Solus on May 20, 2018 10:31:03 GMT
I don't think, Cooler's implementation into DBM was unnecessary. Everything you all said is true. He doesn't contribute to the plot directly. But he had an important role in establishing the augmentation forms, which now can be used by all the Frost Demons in some or another way. Raichi copied it from Cooler and gave it to Freezer. Babidi gave it to Freezer via majinization. It's unclear though if the augmentation is a natural evolution like the Super Saiyan (since sometimes they say they "discovered the secret of augmentation forms" and sometimes they claim they have created it) so I'm not sure, whether Ginyu got the idea for his own augmentations from Cooler or he discovered/created them himself. In any case it would be stupid having Freezer and Cold getting new forms without Cooler being around. Would have been like DBS when Kale went LSSJ and everyone was like "Woah, never've seen that before".
And a second point of course is, that Freezer always has someone on par to talk with. With whom should he have discussed the whole Cold-is-Ginyu-story if not with his brother? Freezer may not like Cooler, but at least he considers him as equal which he wouldn't do with any other individual of U8. And also Freezer and Cooler make a cool tag team as seen in the Raichi fight and against Piccolo. Freezer alone would not have been able to corner Piccolo, not even with this gigantic boost he received.
Edit: I always liked Cooler because he looks very cool and he had a good voice actor in my language. There was not much back story or character depth needed for me to admire him. But as there is no voice acting in the manga I have to realise that his character is actually rather flat. Like that of most other villains - Zen Buu excepted. Is there actually some intriguing character besides him? XXI is only interesting, because we know nothing about him. Raichi is like XXI an OC (or almost) so I won't count him. The exciting thing about Ginyu was how he actually managed to steal Cold's body and deceive both his sons up to this point. Not really a character thing, more an expression of good writing and could have worked for anybody with that ability. Who is left? - Bardock -- ok, he is somewhat interesting. How will things unfold for him, now that Raichi is gone - Bojack -- never been interesting from the start. Has no motivation or goal whatsoever - Fat Buu -- all ways of his possible development have already been gone through in U18 - Dabura -- same as with Fat Buu, maybe he might revolt sometime in the future, but is not nearly strong enough to be a real thread to Babidi - Babidi -- Yes, very interesting indeed due to unique ability. But this is something no other villain can do. I'd say this is also purely the consequence of his abilities and not something that has to do with his character. - U13 -- Are they actually villains? Hard to tell. Didn't really attack someone before majinization - Cyborgs -- Not really an exciting story IMO - Cell -- very cool fighter, very cool design. But character wise? Cell is like an enhanced version of evil Goku. Wants to be the best but has otherwise no motivation. Not really deep. - Broly ...
You see, Cooler is not that much different from any other villain in DBM, that is an original DBZ character. He has ambitions but doesn't follow through them. Maybe we'll get to see some development back in U8 after the tournament. But I think, this'll be rather handled in a fanfic than in DBM itself.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 7:05:57 GMT
I was wondering what if we had two versions of Freeza in the tournament like we had multiples of other characters? One being universe 8 like universe where Freeza did destroy Goku's space pod as it left Planet Vegeta and as a result Vegeta and the others never get strong enough to overpower Freeza and he remains on top. He is the same Freeza as we saw in the main universe. He never trained, still needs the reduction forms, and is the one who is made the butt of jokes, sort of like U10 Vegeta. The other universe has a version of Freeza that somehow defeated Super Saiyan Goku on Namek and was motivated to train, which spurred the rest of his family to start training again, and that universe is the one with the competitive Frost Demons. They don't have to be as strong as Goku and Vegeta, but just be strong enough to compete with SS2 with their fifth forms. That way there is the best of both worlds and some more interesting fights. Of course this would probably have to change things a bit, but if they had a elimination round like the original World Martial Arts Tournaments to get into the main tournament instead of just letting everyone who wanted to fight just compete. Well I would really be against rearranging the tournament just to benefit the Frost Demons or any character that I would've liked to see perform better. The only way I would be okay with something like this is the new Frost Demon universe was replaced with an existing universe without changing any of the battles. For example, switching them with U6 so Freeza replaces Bojack, Cooler/King Cold replace Bujin/Zangya, and Kat and Syd could be new Ginyu Force members or something. Freeza gets to kill Pan so that's about all their universe will contribute while Cooler and King Cold get one-shotted by U11 Buu and Bra. In this case, only Freeza would manage to get the second round before getting tortured by Cell.
Aside from U16 and U18, most of the other universes only have one or two contestants so the only other universe to replace would be U10. King Cold or Cooler could replace the Saiyan who fought Goku and Freeza replaces King Vegeta while the rest would be taken out fairly easily. Their only contestant that makes it to the second round would be the one who fights U8 Recoome in Nail's place. The Frost Demons would put up a better fight by forcing Goku and Vegeta into SSJ2 but that's it. It would be satisfying to see Vegeta beat up Freeza but I can't say it's better than what we got with King Vegeta. The fight shows how far our Vegeta has come and the Freeza's indirect influence over the Saiyans. In DBM canon, the Saiyans would've remained primitive savages if not for Freeza with King Vegeta being weaker than he was during the Saiyan saga and Goku dying as a weak low-class.
Whether we replace them with U6 or U10, we would still face the same problem during the Majin conflict with them being too strong for anyone aside from the Gohan's. Salagir would either have to have the Heloites take them all on, the two Piccolo's fuse in order, or have some other contestants get left behind in order to stand a chance against "FP"SSJ2-SSJ3 tier Frost Demons. Ultimately, I think this comes down to preference and if it's worth it for Salagir to go to such great lengths just to make the Frost Demons more of a threat but not necessarily whether it's good or bad for the story since it wouldn't have a major impact on the story either way.
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Post by Axalon on May 23, 2018 11:44:34 GMT
[Salagir would either have to have the Heloites take them all on, the two Piccolo's fuse in order, YESSSSSS. I think it really does come down to preference. Broly was wanked up to SS3 Vegito levels and had no impact on the story at all, he was just there to give Vegito a good fight and look cool.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 4:05:31 GMT
I think it really does come down to preference. Broly was wanked up to SS3 Vegito levels and had no impact on the story at all, he was just there to give Vegito a good fight and look cool. Well it did have an impact on the story. Broly's purpose was to show off Vegetto's full power to everyone in the first round to make it more shocking when he loses so easily against XXI. He was more of a plot device since his role could've been fulfilled by any raging, expendable opponent like a stronger Hatchiyack, Janemba, or Hirudegarn. If I was writing DBM, I would've had trouble finding a role for the Frost Demons. In a story that also includes Cell there's not a lot the Frost Demons could offer since he's basically a hybrid Frost Demon. Cell is just as sadistic as they are and more dangerous due to his regeneration and wide array of abilities. It would've been interesting to see Vegetto ask Freeza and Cooler for help against Ginyu but to be honest I don't know what they could've done. It's not like Freeza knows how to activate Ginyu's ability so I think Vegetto would still have to coerce Ginyu into switching back. I'm not saying there's nothing they could contribute just that I can't really think of anything. If I were to power them up it would only be to have them last a few extra pages but I would have to think of a good role for them if I were to go as far as to rearrange the matches for them.
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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 4:27:57 GMT
I think it really does come down to preference. Broly was wanked up to SS3 Vegito levels and had no impact on the story at all, he was just there to give Vegito a good fight and look cool. Well it did have an impact on the story. Broly's purpose was to show off Vegetto's full power to everyone in the first round to make it more shocking when he loses so easily against XXI. He was more of a plot device since his role could've been fulfilled by any raging, expendable opponent like a stronger Hatchiyack, Janemba, or Hirudegarn. Problem is we already knew that Vegito was either #1, or at a stretch within the top 3 with Zen Buu and the old theories about Gast's power level (now sadly revealed to be only SS3 tier) in full effect. It's only natural that Vegito would have more power than what we saw in the Buu Saga, especially when he only ever went SS1 and still had SS2 and SS3 in reserve thanks to being a fusion of Goku and Vegeta in the first place! I mean, if Gotenks could go SS3 when Goten/Trunks didn't even have SS2 it's only natural that Vegito has more in reserve! Broly only confirmed the obvious. He was there for a cool fight. Even without SS2 or SS3, Vegito would STILL be a top contender for most powerful fighter in the tournament and XXI defeating him, Vegito, of all people, so easily would've been just as shocking. It wouldn't have even required a strong, wild opponent to show off. Just powering up would've been enough to convince the other contestants just how strong he was compared to them! He could've done it against Nappa! I wouldn't say Cell is as sadistic as they are. Perfect Cell tortures when he has something he wants to gain (unleashing Gohan's power for instance), but generally seeks out and enjoys good fights, likely thanks to his Saiyan heritage. Frieza tortures because it's FUN. He does it often when he has nothing to gain except further amusement at the being writing in agony from his tortures. He doesn't hold himself back to enjoy a fight like Cell does, he just rips Nail's arm off and flaunts his superiority as he beats him within an inch of his life. Cell is definitely more dangerous though. Theoretically, assuming just increasing their power level isn't an option (the simplest option IMO to make them more plot relevant), I think the best use of the Frost Demons would've been to have them fight lesser fighters. Not everything needs to be plot relevant, although nice, sometimes a nice fight is all that's required. This is why I'm fine with Vegito vs Broly as just a cool fight, but I still don't see how it's truly plot relevant. The same thing could be done for the Frost Demons. DBM was initially little more than a bunch of cool "what if" matches that could've never actually happened or just didn't, like Cell vs Dabura, or Recoome vs Nail. Have Frieza fight U9 Tien or something!
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Post by Son Pan on May 24, 2018 5:45:02 GMT
If we're talking about from a writing standpoint than I think there were ways to make Freeza's family stand out from Cell without taking away from either. Cell came from a universe where he has been on top for so long and has no challenges left. For Cell this tournament must be a godsend. Freeza doesn't possess that same love of a good challenge as Cell does and enjoys being on top with no challengers to contend with and wishes to be immortal. Those difference could have created distinct characterizations and interactions throughout the story. For example Freeza's interactions with Goku and company would be different from Cell's interactions. If we're talking about sacrificing a character for them than we could do with Bardock. If he was defeated by Raditz he could have still stayed in the story on the sidelines and still had his future visions used to foreshadow things to come to us. Without Bardock it could mean Nappa could have been made a Super Saiyan instead, which can redo the Freeza and Nappa battle to being the one that shows a Frost Demon defeat a Super Saiyan instead of Cold and Bardock fight. It would be really bad ass for Freeza to throw a broken and battered Nappa over to U13 Vegeta than Cold throwing Bardock at U18. U13 Vegeta's face and reaction would be priceless. It generates chatter with people on how strong Freeza and his family have gotten. Future Trunks having more of a challenge against Cooler than we all expected would have been fun.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 7:16:29 GMT
Well it did have an impact on the story. Broly's purpose was to show off Vegetto's full power to everyone in the first round to make it more shocking when he loses so easily against XXI. He was more of a plot device since his role could've been fulfilled by any raging, expendable opponent like a stronger Hatchiyack, Janemba, or Hirudegarn. Problem is we already knew that Vegito was either #1, or at a stretch within the top 3 with Zen Buu and the old theories about Gast's power level (now sadly revealed to be only SS3 tier) in full effect. It's only natural that Vegito would have more power than what we saw in the Buu Saga, especially when he only ever went SS1 and still had SS2 and SS3 in reserve thanks to being a fusion of Goku and Vegeta in the first place! I mean, if Gotenks could go SS3 when Goten/Trunks didn't even have SS2 it's only natural that Vegito has more in reserve! Broly only confirmed the obvious. He was there for a cool fight. Well, we knew that Vegetto was by far one of the strongest in the tournament but no one knew who he was outside of U4, U16, and U18. Having him go all out reveals to the others and shows U4 and U18 how much stronger he is at full strength compared to the power that they only witnessed during the Buu saga. Plus, Broly also setup their encounter in space against Zen Buu which revealed Bra's lack of control over SSJ2 and causes them to question Zen Buu's motives. Broly ended up being a convenient plot device to reveal all that without needing to reveal each one on a separate occasion within the tournament. Axalon & Son PanI could see these ideas working but ultimately I feel it goes back to the point that it only serves to have them last a few extra pages but not really contribute much else. Is there anything else that could be done with them aside from switching around their opponents or making them stronger? I just think there should be more to it if Salagir should go out of his way to change them.
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Post by Son Pan on May 24, 2018 7:44:48 GMT
Problem is we already knew that Vegito was either #1, or at a stretch within the top 3 with Zen Buu and the old theories about Gast's power level (now sadly revealed to be only SS3 tier) in full effect. It's only natural that Vegito would have more power than what we saw in the Buu Saga, especially when he only ever went SS1 and still had SS2 and SS3 in reserve thanks to being a fusion of Goku and Vegeta in the first place! I mean, if Gotenks could go SS3 when Goten/Trunks didn't even have SS2 it's only natural that Vegito has more in reserve! Broly only confirmed the obvious. He was there for a cool fight. Well, we knew that Vegetto was by far one of the strongest in the tournament but no one knew who he was outside of U4, U16, and U18. Having him go all out reveals to the others and shows U4 and U18 how much stronger he is at full strength compared to the power that they only witnessed during the Buu saga. Plus, Broly also setup their encounter in space against Zen Buu which revealed Bra's lack of control over SSJ2 and causes them to question Zen Buu's motives. Broly ended up being a convenient plot device to reveal all that without needing to reveal each one on a separate occasion within the tournament. Axalon & Son PanI could see these ideas working but ultimately I feel it goes back to the point that it only serves to have them last a few extra pages but not really contribute much else. Is there anything else that could be done with them aside from switching around their opponents or making them stronger? I just think there should be more to it if Salagir should go out of his way to change them. Bra lacking control though would have been revealed with Zangya fight and would have introduced all her issues too. I think I am going to have to side with Axalon on this one. Thinking about it I don’t think Broly’s removal really changes anything major for DBM story. We miss out on seeing Vegetto go SS2 and SS3, which could have been seen later. Broly’s addition does sort of complicate the story in some places that other movie or OVA characters haven’t really done. I think his adjustments are comparable to changes in Freeza and his family.
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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 9:51:45 GMT
Problem is we already knew that Vegito was either #1, or at a stretch within the top 3 with Zen Buu and the old theories about Gast's power level (now sadly revealed to be only SS3 tier) in full effect. It's only natural that Vegito would have more power than what we saw in the Buu Saga, especially when he only ever went SS1 and still had SS2 and SS3 in reserve thanks to being a fusion of Goku and Vegeta in the first place! I mean, if Gotenks could go SS3 when Goten/Trunks didn't even have SS2 it's only natural that Vegito has more in reserve! Broly only confirmed the obvious. He was there for a cool fight. Well, we knew that Vegetto was by far one of the strongest in the tournament but no one knew who he was outside of U4, U16, and U18. Having him go all out reveals to the others and shows U4 and U18 how much stronger he is at full strength compared to the power that they only witnessed during the Buu saga. Plus, Broly also setup their encounter in space against Zen Buu which revealed Bra's lack of control over SSJ2 and causes them to question Zen Buu's motives. Broly ended up being a convenient plot device to reveal all that without needing to reveal each one on a separate occasion within the tournament. Axalon & Son Pan I could see these ideas working but ultimately I feel it goes back to the point that it only serves to have them last a few extra pages but not really contribute much else. Is there anything else that could be done with them aside from switching around their opponents or making them stronger? I just think there should be more to it if Salagir should go out of his way to change them. Son Pan kind of already said it for me, all these issues could've just been handled later on in different points of the story without Broly. Bra's lack of control would've been perfectly exhibited with Zangya, especially since Vegito deliberately has to pull her aside and she barely contains herself even with Vegito's pep talk and without even going SS2! Zen Buu's motives could quite honestly be questioned at any given time that he does something remotely suspicious or helpful, and Vegito could literally just power up at any time to show the entire tournament how strong he is as well. When he returns from XXI's dimension for instance, just powering up in anger there would've had 99% of the arena quaking in their boots, including those who know nothing about him, and still would've served to trigger a vision from Bardock. The changes to Broly also made him a quick and easy wall for Raichi to throw at Gast after carelessly throwing Broly away against U13 Vegeta, despite having other Ghosts in his arsenal that arguably would've kept him alive longer, so really Broly has just been a plot device that's been unnecessary for any of the fights beyond looking cool. Translating this to the Frost Demons, this is again why I feel it's just a matter of preference. Salagir boosted up Broly to absurd levels purely because he thinks he's cool. It's his story, so that's his prerogative, but if Broly can be subjected to such immense changes I don't see why others can't theoretically be as well. Again, I don't feel like everything HAS to be plot focused sometimes. All of Cell's fights have had zero impact on how the actual plot progressed whatsoever, but damn if they didn't look cool and weren't entertaining as hell in the process. How about in this universe Frieza actually got his wish for immortality? Cold can still secretly be Ginyu, Cooler can have his augmentation form, and then when it seems like Frieza doesn't have anything to offer...he just isn't dying. Imagine if Frieza actually ended up winning the mental battle with Goku because Goku's last ditch Old Man Kamehameha failed... because Frieza can't die? Imagine the upset! Better still, now you have Goku wondering why his attack didn't work. Is it because he waited too long in the mental battle and lacked the strength? Is it because Frieza's been hiding his true power all this time? Does Frieza know some secret technique that let him survive against post-Buu Goku? Regardless, Goku is the type to keep to his word and I'd see him saying that Frieza actually won fair and square. On top of that it'd mean Zen Buu would've actually influenced the tournament a smidgen since even if he's immortal, Frieza still lacks the power to compete with Goku! Just like that Frieza has become a wild card because in a stunning upset he's defeated Goku without actually throwing a punch! (Thanks to a little help from that meddling Zen Buu). Now the order of things seem even less sure! Frieza would then face off against the winner of Cell vs Vegeta, both of whom would be equally confused as to how Frieza did it. An immortal Frieza also opens up the opportunity to have the "Reverse-Frieza effect" as I'm terming it happen. Where before Frieza was always the one expending vital stamina (Namek, RoF, etc), now superior opponents are wasting theirs in futile attempts to murder the guy! All he has to do is mock them, throw out an OHOHOHOHO, and just get back up and just keep getting back up while acting superior, as Frieza does, and kill them after they've exhausted themselves! Even throw in some classic Frieza torture for old times sake! In one fell swoop you can keep his power level the same as Namek, not change the order of the fights, keep the same jokes as before like with Nappa forfeiting, deliver a stunning upset with Goku and make Zen Buu's gifts slightly more impactful, and in the end Babadi gets the same power levels for servants, just with one extra in that Majin Frieza can't be killed. Still weak compared to other fighters, but punching him really, really hard or blasting him with a Special Beam Cage Cannon isn't the key to victory anymore. It also opens up more strategies to be used. How do you fight an immortal opponent? The Mafuba? Hope you can blast them into space long enough to disqualify them? How long before someone even figures out that this is what Frieza's gimmick actually is? What's more, you can have Frieza deliberately confuse his enemies and say regeneration is a trick he learned he was able to do after seeing some Namekians do it (a total lie of course) since he's been guarding his immortality as a secret weapon to be used later in his own universe? Many, many possibilities are available here. That's not even counting more generic approaches like just making them stronger, or just rearranging the matches either.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2018 6:10:20 GMT
Bra lacking control though would have been revealed with Zangya fight and would have introduced all her issues too. I think I am going to have to side with Axalon on this one. Thinking about it I don’t think Broly’s removal really changes anything major for DBM story. We miss out on seeing Vegetto go SS2 and SS3, which could have been seen later. Broly’s addition does sort of complicate the story in some places that other movie or OVA characters haven’t really done. I think his adjustments are comparable to changes in Freeza and his family. I agree all three could be revealed later but the fight allowed them to be revealed early on. Vegetto mentioned that it was the first time he had to show his true power since his fusion so it would be unlikely he would power-up beyond SSJ1 in the tournament until the final showdown of the story. Unless his first round opponent is strong enough, Vegetto probably wouldn't even transform into SSJ1. Bra's fight against Zangya doesn't show the full extent of her lack of control because Zangya angered her so Bra had trouble holding back. That would've similar to all the times Gohan got a range boost or when Vegeta attacked Cell after he killed Trunks. The battle against Zen Buu revealed her SSJ2 and how she had zero control over it. For Zen Buu it revealed more of his change in personality when he confronted U16 after they returned to the arena. He had the chance to kill them for stopping him from absorbing Broly but he thanked them for the battle and left them alone. When I was discussing the plot, I referring to some of the complaints about how the Frost Demons aren't contributing more. The argument that the Frost Demons should be powered-up because Broly was could apply to literally any character so I don't think it's really fair. Every character had a different reason for why they were as strong as they were. Salagir offered a theory for the Frost Demons' power that he thought made sense. I could understand if the theory contradicted anything but I believe it fit well with what had been established about them. I know it isn't what fans mean when they complain that they're not strong enough it comes off as "I don't like Salagir's theory not because I think it doesn't work but because it doesn't allow them to be as strong as I would've liked". It really is one of those times when the author can't please everyone. Some fans like the theory and how they were handled while others wanted more from them. I'm one of the fans would've done less for the Frost Demons. I obviously don't hate them but the movie-only 5th form was their only means of powering-up at the time so that would've been the most I could think of doing for them. When Freeza and King Cold rushed to Earth, I thought they may not have been able to get much stronger by training aside from unlocking the 5th form. Toriyama mentioned them being mutants in an old interview so I assumed that maybe the average Frost Demons was pretty weak and Freeza and King Cold's mutation pushed their power to the upper limits of their race. This would've been the theory that I would've went with. I know some fans wouldn't like it but all I could do is explain why I think it works as a possible interpretation and ask if anything in the manga conflicts with this theory. So I do agree that Salagir could've done more with them but I just don't feel that he should've done more or needed to since he explained why he made those choices. How about in this universe Frieza actually got his wish for immortality? Cold can still secretly be Ginyu, Cooler can have his augmentation form, and then when it seems like Frieza doesn't have anything to offer...he just isn't dying. Imagine if Frieza actually ended up winning the mental battle with Goku because Goku's last ditch Old Man Kamehameha failed...because Frieza can't die? Imagine the upset! Better still, now you have Goku wondering why his attack didn't work. Is it because he waited too long in the mental battle and lacked the strength? Is it because Frieza's been hiding his true power all this time? Does Frieza know some secret technique that let him survive against post-Buu Goku? Regardless, Goku is the type to keep to his word and I'd see him saying that Frieza actually won fair and square. On top of that it'd mean Zen Buu would've actually influenced the tournament a smidgen since even if he's immortal, Frieza still lacks the power to compete with Goku! Just like that Frieza has become a wild card because in a stunning upset he's defeated Goku without actually throwing a punch! (Thanks to a little help from that meddling Zen Buu). Now the order of things seem even less sure! Frieza would then face off against the winner of Cell vs Vegeta, both of whom would be equally confused as to how Frieza did it. I think an immortal Freeza could be interesting but to be honest I really wouldn't have liked Freeza to defeat Goku this way. I would've also been disappointed in the Nameks who agreed to grant his wish. I know with the multiverse of infinite possibilities that there's a universe out there where they helped Freeza but I would hope that such dishonorable Nameks are not in any of the universes participating. His immortality would only be effective in his illusion place thing but it would be unlikely that his following opponents would agree to it after seeing Goku lose and may assume that it gives Freeza an unfair advantage. Uub would likely figure out that something is up due to his attacks being ineffective despite the huge power difference between them. Even if he doesn't figure out that Freeza is immortal, he may realize that his power would eventually drain if he keeps going so his only option would be to blast Freeza off into space. Freeza would then be drifting around in space until the tournament is over and they teleport him back to his universe.
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Post by Son Pan on May 26, 2018 8:20:09 GMT
Bra lacking control though would have been revealed with Zangya fight and would have introduced all her issues too. I think I am going to have to side with Axalon on this one. Thinking about it I don’t think Broly’s removal really changes anything major for DBM story. We miss out on seeing Vegetto go SS2 and SS3, which could have been seen later. Broly’s addition does sort of complicate the story in some places that other movie or OVA characters haven’t really done. I think his adjustments are comparable to changes in Freeza and his family. I agree all three could be revealed later but the fight allowed them to be revealed early on. Vegetto mentioned that it was the first time he had to show his true power since his fusion so it would be unlikely he would power-up beyond SSJ1 in the tournament until the final showdown of the story. Unless his first round opponent is strong enough, Vegetto probably wouldn't even transform into SSJ1. Bra's fight against Zangya doesn't show the full extent of her lack of control because Zangya angered her so Bra had trouble holding back. That would've similar to all the times Gohan got a range boost or when Vegeta attacked Cell after he killed Trunks. The battle against Zen Buu revealed her SSJ2 and how she had zero control over it. For Zen Buu it revealed more of his change in personality when he confronted U16 after they returned to the arena. He had the chance to kill them for stopping him from absorbing Broly but he thanked them for the battle and left them alone. When I was discussing the plot, I referring to some of the complaints about how the Frost Demons aren't contributing more. The argument that the Frost Demons should be powered-up because Broly was could apply to literally any character so I don't think it's really fair. Every character had a different reason for why they were as strong as they were. Salagir offered a theory for the Frost Demons' power that he thought made sense. I could understand if the theory contradicted anything but I believe it fit well with what had been established about them. I know it isn't what fans mean when they complain that they're not strong enough it comes off as "I don't like Salagir's theory not because I think it doesn't work but because it doesn't allow them to be as strong as I would've liked". It really is one of those times when the author can't please everyone. Some fans like the theory and how they were handled while others wanted more from them. I'm one of the fans would've done less for the Frost Demons. I obviously don't hate them but the movie-only 5th form was their only means of powering-up at the time so that would've been the most I could think of doing for them. When Freeza and King Cold rushed to Earth, I thought they may not have been able to get much stronger by training aside from unlocking the 5th form. Toriyama mentioned them being mutants in an old interview so I assumed that maybe the average Frost Demons was pretty weak and Freeza and King Cold's mutation pushed their power to the upper limits of their race. This would've been the theory that I would've went with. I know some fans wouldn't like it but all I could do is explain why I think it works as a possible interpretation and ask if anything in the manga conflicts with this theory. So I do agree that Salagir could've done more with them but I just don't feel that he should've done more or needed to since he explained why he made those choices. 1. That is true, but showing off his later forms while cool didn't really do anything plot wise. Vegetto has never gone SS2 and SS3 in canon, so we all knew he has never used his true power. That plot point can and could have been conveyed by Vegetto in a single conversation with Piccolo on how he hopes to find someone who can challenge him here. Us seeing Vegetto use those forms later wouldn't have done much. Vegetto losing before he can even use his full power would actually add more drama, since he would be even more pissed at how XXI stole his one change away from him.
2. Vegetto already explained Bra lacks control. Bra being pissed at Bojack and demanding Gohan kill him without thinking how it would prevent Pan's revival shows Bra lets her anger get the better of her. Vegetto's task for Bra to just beat Bra without unnecessary actions and explaining she needs to control her anger does introduce her anger issues. All it takes for us the audience to learn it impacts her control of SS2 would be for Vegetto to explain it to us. If need be Bra getting so pissed that she turns SS2 and attacks in a blind rage or accidentally attacking the audience too would serve to introduce the same problems that Bra attacking Vegetto and Gohan in space would.
The Broly and Vegetto fight was one of the best in the story. I loved seeing Vegetto go up to SS2 and SS3. I even liked the space battle U16 had with U4 Buu. If we are talking about if the changes made to Broly fell into definition of serving a purpose beyond being cool or that his role in the story was irreplaceable than thinking about it and I mean really thinking about it I don't see Broly being made into invincible warrior with unlimited power really added much to the plot and as some of us have debated if those changes helped or hindered the story beyond Vegetto fight. Broly is the closest to the Frost Demons being stronger for me because well it really only served this one match. That is fine with me. This is still Dragon Ball. Not every fight, especially tournament arcs always served a greater purpose for the plot or character advancement. I think when we discuss these subjects we shouldn't dismiss entertainment value of fights.
I agree with you that it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day. There is no way to please everyone. Overall I've really liked what Salagir has done. I'm just baffled by Universe 8's role in the story the longer the story goes. I think it generates more discussion because they are still in the story and are still doing things. This thread might not have blown up so much had U18 Piccolo didn't need some ultra new technique that has heavy cost to kill Freeza a character he should have easily been able to kill. That feeds the conversation on if they should have been made stronger on the onset or not.
I don't want to just come off as shitting on Salagir's choices for the Freeza's family. When we discuss this a lot of defense of it always comes from using DBM's mechanics to defend it. As Axalon pointed out was DBM's own invention and that things could have just as easily been changed to buff them up a bit more to make them more challenging. I will never argue that Salagir needs to conform to fans' ideas or desires. I can see reasons for what he does or why he chose that. Freeza to me is more of a gag that was funny at first, but then got old and annoying because the gag won't let up. It comes off to some that Freeza is the butt monkey because Salagir wasn't a big fan of Freeza rather than it being necessary for the story or plot. I'm not saying that is necessarily true, but just pointing out that is how it looks. That is known to annoy people. If universe 8 is meant to be a joke it is fine. I just think if they left around the second round most of us wouldn't still be harping on it and we would just consider them to be a butt monkey universe like U10 was. When we get things like well third round took way too long why didn't Salagir just have the fighters that stood no chance get one shot and move on already, then we have people defending that was to make the fights more entertaining for people.
That feeds the argument that if that was the case why weren't they made stronger in their inception to make these fights genuinely better without the need for plot device that is Majin Buu. I personally loved Freeza's telepathic technique to get the edge on Goku and spice things up, but I do get the argument on Goku just one shooting him would have been better in the long run since we wouldn't have wasted time on a fight no one expected much from because unlike other villains everyone knew Freeza hadn't improved at all. If the idea of Buu's gift are meant to spice things up and give weaker characters a chance it just feels like these weaker characters should have been buffed out more. That leads to argument of that not making sense for the character and someone else brings up how that logic applies to another character and so on and so on.
Stronger Frost Demons equates to stronger Broly for me now because I personally feel neither serve much of a role beyond entertaining fights, which I'm fine with. If I had to sit through SS2 Goku fighting Freeza who trained to get stronger for one chapter (which takes several weeks to finish) I would be fine with. I know not everyone would, but for me it would be like SS2 Vegeta fighting USS Trunks. Vegeta could have one shot his son, but he didn't and held back to test Trunks out. It was one of the better fights. In terms of writing standpoint I don't think Freeza or his family being stronger for purposes of more entertaining fights is a bad thing as long as it is kept reasonable. Making Freeza as strong as Vegetto for the sake of making him the strongest villain in the tournament would be bad to me, but making Freeza strong enough to make Goku need SS2 to win is fine. If Piccolo is between Cell Junior and Perfect Cell on his own giving Piccolo Kaioken to push him to SS2 range then having Majin Freeza and Majin Cooler who are SS2 level tip the scales too far to the heroes or villains. At least these are my thoughts.
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Post by Axalon on May 26, 2018 16:14:58 GMT
I think an immortal Freeza could be interesting but to be honest I really wouldn't have liked Freeza to defeat Goku this way. What way would have been preferable then? The general consensus seems to be that keeping him at Namek Saga levels is practically required at this point, so powering him up is out of the question. If immortality + a mental battle is also unlikable, then what else is there? Go full RoF and have Goku drop his guard and get surprise laser beamed through the chest? Have Goku just lose the mental fight without the immortality angle? I don't think they need to be "dishonorable" necessarily. After all, Vegeta was a downright evil bastard during the Namek Saga and Dende, Krillin and Gohan were ALL about to give him immortality and was only stopped by Guru/Porunga dying at the last possible moment. Are these three "dishonorable" for choosing the lesser of two evils? In much the same way, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for Frieza to have threatened some Namekian to speak the words for him in exchange for sparing their lives or their planet or something. Lesser examples had already occurred where the Namekians willingly traded up a DB in exchange to get someone like Vegeta or Frieza to stop killing them after all. Quite possible. But I'm not trying to have Frieza win the entire tournament or even just his side of the bracket, so being defeated by Uub or Cell is well within the cards. This is essentially the same concept as Broly, a neat little twist to cause a small upset by eliminating Goku. It isn't crucial to the plot, it's just there to be a cool scenario.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 3:01:29 GMT
1. That is true, but showing off his later forms while cool didn't really do anything plot wise. Vegetto has never gone SS2 and SS3 in canon, so we all knew he has never used his true power. That plot point can and could have been conveyed by Vegetto in a single conversation with Piccolo on how he hopes to find someone who can challenge him here. Us seeing Vegetto use those forms later wouldn't have done much. Vegetto losing before he can even use his full power would actually add more drama, since he would be even more pissed at how XXI stole his one change away from him. 2. Vegetto already explained Bra lacks control. Bra being pissed at Bojack and demanding Gohan kill him without thinking how it would prevent Pan's revival shows Bra lets her anger get the better of her. Vegetto's task for Bra to just beat Bra without unnecessary actions and explaining she needs to control her anger does introduce her anger issues. All it takes for us the audience to learn it impacts her control of SS2 would be for Vegetto to explain it to us. If need be Bra getting so pissed that she turns SS2 and attacks in a blind rage or accidentally attacking the audience too would serve to introduce the same problems that Bra attacking Vegetto and Gohan in space would. I think showing them after a major battle would have more of an impact and more convenient than simply revealing each one on separate occasions by having characters only talk about them. After Broly vs Vegetto, we saw everyone's reaction so it much more shocking to them when he was so easily defeated. Bra would've had no reason to transform into SSJ2 until much later in the tournament. Broly's power-up should have no bearing on the Frost Demons because they had different reasons for being as powerful as they were. The original purpose of Broly was to differentiate the regular SSJ forms that could be achieved by training with the ancient form that was said to only appear every 1000 years. As the story went on, the form wasn't all that legendary compared to SSJ2 and SSJ3 so the point was for LSSJ to live up to its title. Salagir's theory for the Frost Demons was trying to account for why King Cold could be so much more powerful than his sons in his original form and how Cooler hadn't grown much stronger after unlocking his 5th form. If Salagir decided against using Broly, I think he would've tried to replace him with someone else who could give Vegetto a challenge and have the same revelations. Powering up the Frost Demons is asking him to abandon his theory about them and powering up other characters so that the Majin Frost Demons don't kill all the heroes besides Gohan. It would interesting to give Piccolo Kaioken but I don't know it would work. He trained with Goku and Gohan for three years for the cyborgs so that would've been the perfect time to ask to learn it. What way would have been preferable then? The general consensus seems to be that keeping him at Namek Saga levels is practically required at this point, so powering him up is out of the question. If immortality + a mental battle is also unlikable, then what else is there? Go full RoF and have Goku drop his guard and get surprise laser beamed through the chest? Have Goku just lose the mental fight without the immortality angle? I'm saying I wouldn't really want Goku to lose to Freeza at all. Their battle was a lot more entertaining than I expected which is why I can't really ask for more I guess. I probably would've just had Freeza transform into his 5th form, Freeza mentions how he killed Goku in his universe and Goku comments how Freeza helped him turn SSJ for the first and how he would've had trouble on Namek if Freeza had unlocked this form then Goku knocks him out. Well there was a big difference between giving them a Dragonball knowing they can't make activate them or make their wish on their own and agreeing to grant the wish for them. Vegeta was the lesser of two evils at the time so I think there would need to be someone worse than Freeza also trying to acquire the Dragonballs in U8 for the Nameks to even consider helping him.
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