??????
|
Post by iron leaf on Apr 11, 2018 16:32:38 GMT
So, I was wandering through the internet. I read some comments here on the forum, on the DBM pages and on other internet sites discussing DBM. And one particular topic attracted my attention. Many people criticize how DBM represent Freeza (and family) as weakling, butt-monkey, joke, etc. Alongside the DBS fanboys just wanting to see Golden Freeza, there are actually valid arguments discussing why it wasn't necessary to deny Freeza a power-up after more than 30 years. What are Salagir's arguments to make Freeza the way he is in DBM? Frostdemons don't train (Cooler being an exception but he actually doesn't train as much), Frostdemons increase strength with age, Frostdemons next generations are slightly stronger than the previous generation compared when at the same age. (Correct me if I forgot something or I made a mistake) So, in DBM canon it makes sense that Freeza is actually one of the weakest villains in the tournament. And unfortunately the 4 specials don't focus on Freeza but on other characters that die ultimately and don't participate in DBM as U8 members at all. The specials showed how our heroes lost but did not improve the character development for the actual U8 members so much. (Freeza deciding to maintain his original form & Ginyu taking over Cold's body, or course) What do you guys think? Did Salagir unjustice to Freeza by turning him into a laughingstock? Salagir justifies a weak Freeza because there aren't any threats to the Frostdemons and the empire to encourage Freeza to train seriously or improve by fighting strong opponents after Goku. But in this regard I think Salagir missed a very good opportunity to prolong the story of U8, improve the forstdemons in general in this regard and connect the main villains of Dragonball in other universes even more. (somebody said there will be only 4 specials for U8 and the story is kinda completed, is that correct?) Here I thought of a continuation of the U8 storyline after Freeza defeated Goku. The last special in regard of chronology takes place 762. In U13 Raditz and Goku attacked Helior at that time. And if I remember the U19 novelization correctly, Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz attack Helior in U19 about the same time. So, perfect opportunity for Freeza to attck Helior 762 as well, having some time connotation between all 3 universes.
So, Freeza decides to try and maintain his original form because he doesn't want to be surprised ever again. And Ginyu does his business by changing with several people in the meantime. After some time he remembered the Helior system he wanted to conquer before the incident with Namek got in his way. He decides to master his original form he should maybe go to Helior himself and "train" a little bit in final form. Let's say Freeza ordered the Ginyu-force lead by Jeice to accompany him and a few hundreds foot soldier as well. Arriving on Helior the Ginyu-force and the foot soldier massacre the normal Heloite forces as easy as Kakarot and Raditz in U13. Now, about the number of ultra soldiers. How many should be on Helior and how many at the fight against the Kolloks? Let's say in U8 Freeza arrives on Helior much later than Kakarot and Raditz in U13. So, let's say all Heloite ultra soldiers are back on their home planet and conveniently they defeated the Kolloks already. Here, the ultra soldiers are capable of beating Jeice, Recoome and Baata up and again they conveniently not kill them immediately. Freeza a little bit upset his best forces losing is actually glad to have the opportunity to test his ability to control his final form against actual strong opponents. So, he encounters the ultra soldiers, have maybe some conversations with them and then the fight starts. The ultra soldiers are holding their ground in Freeza's surprise. We see some awesome fighting because it is 1 vs 8 (I guess, there were 8 ultra soldiers in fanfic). The Ultra armor at 762 is not as effective as the one in the DBM tournament (not even strong enough to kill a single Ozaru with the apparently strongest attack, the Ultra Waver. 30 years later, conveniently strong enough to kill a SSJ2). But at some point Freeza loses control of his final form, just like Cold in the fight against Gast in U7. He creates so much devastation, like Raditz when he tried to safe Kakarot from Feyn. But Freeza kills in the process at least half of the ultra soldiers and he starts a rampage. Without hesitation he brutally attacks the remaining ultra soldiers, like strangling one with his tail, shooting death beams at the others. And finally, after he killed them, he calms down. Even though Freeza still can't control his final form completely, he is starting to get the feel to it. And this fight would let him regain some of his former reputation as vicious dictator and tyrant because, let's be honest, Goku let him look a little bit like a weakling till he reached final form. In the meantime, Freeza is doing his business as dictator and conquers, sells or do whatever with the planets.
5 years later, Cyborg 17 and Cyborg 18 are activated on earth. There are no heroes left to oppose them. Gohan, Bulma, Krillin and Goku didn't survive their trip to Namek. Without any resistance the Cyborgs kill almost/all humans on earth (similar to U14). Let's say, just before Cell grew up enough to hunt the Cyborgs, some of Freeza's soldiers were send to conquer earth, Freeza completely forgeting again that earth was Goku's planet. Freeza foot soldier arriving on earth but they don't locate any powerlevel because Cyborgs can't be detectet and the Cyborgs killed all humans. Conveniently, C17 and C18 witnessed the space pods landing and decide to check what all that is about. They have a little conversation with Freeza's foot soldiers and then decide to kill them. Excited about the thouhght that there is other life in space they want to travel to other planets kill all inhabitants there as well (because those Cyborgs are evil) and because they were bored as hell on an empty earth. So, they give some already registered coordination to a frostdemon's planet and they leave earth. Some time later, they arrive on a Cold planet and start to terrorize it. In the meantime Ginyu already changed with Cold and killed him. When Coldyu gets informed about 2 individuals attacking one of his precious and beautiful planets he send the strongest troops he himself has. The Cyborgs kills them all and having probably the fun of their life for finally having some decent warrior to slaughter. Coldyu getting angry, wondering if there actually are beings in the universe stronger than a frostdemon, especially stronger than Cold. He calls for Cooler and Freeza to come to his location. He informs them that one of his planets is attacked by 2 individuals and all troops were slaughtered. He orders his sons to accompany him to kill those 2 intrudors. In secret, Coldyu just want to have an opportunity to transform for a credible reason against 2 strong opponents, so his "sons" can witness it and won't doubt it. So, the frostdemons arrive on the planet the Cyborgs are devastating. Then, they encounter each other and they have some conversations. Cooler transform into 5th form and Coldyu transform into 3th form and Freeza is still in final form. They fight and the frostdemons pretty quick realise they are in a disadvantage even though they are 3 and the Cyborgs 2. The only reason the frostdemons doesn't die is probably because the Cyborgs just play with them (like against Future Gohan and Future Trunks at the beginning). Coldyu command his sons to occupy the Cyborgs long enough so he can transform into final form. Even though this is a dire situation for them, Freeza and Cooler are kinda sceptic that their father can transform two times in a row although he was for centuries in 2nd form. Coldyu realises his secret could be revealed from this, so he decides to act purposely like he is losing control in final form. Then, similar to Cold vs Gast U7, Colydu release so much Ki in an attack that he destroy the Cyborgs completely and almost destroying the planet in the progress. Afterwards, Coldyu explains Freeza and Cooler that he seemingly can't control his power in final form and decides to try and maintain final form like Freeza just in case there will be other threats someday.
Afer succesfully deceiving his "sons" Coldyu orders Freeza and Cooler to go into the matter where the Cyborgs were coming from. They soon find out that the space pods the Cyborgs were landing on this planet came from earth. Freeza remembering earth again decides to conquer that planet. Coldyu orders Cooler to accompany Freeza. Completely against his satisfaction he does what is required of him. Coldyu, on the other hand, stays on the planet to be present at the construction work. Freeza and Coola fly to Earth and are not at all content to work together. Coola even considers whether to kill Freeza and all foot soldiers on the earth and claim later to his father that he is the only survivor. As soon as they arrive on earth, they are greeted by a green monster. With the scouters, they can quickly see that there are no other power levels on the planet except from the green monster. So the Frost Demons and Cell have a conversation. Then the fight begins. Imperfect Cell defeats the soldiers and begins to absorb one. Coola and Freeza are pissed off and attack Cell. Cell is weaker in this case than in his meeting with Piccolo in DBZ because he could not absorb people. Coola in his 5th form and Freeza in his 4th form fight with Cell. But this time Coola and Freeza had gained a lot of experience because they fought against the cyborgs and then they got stronger. Cell, on the other hand, should be much weaker than his counterpart in U18 because he lacks important samples, etc. However, Imperfect Cell has a slight advantage and is slowly starting to defeat the brothers. Then Freeza manages to unexpectedly transform into his 5th form. The only way to defeat Cell is through collaboration. Coola, despite his hatred of his brother, agrees and they start to work together, on the same level as the Ghost Warriors of Dr. Raichi in the DBM tournament. And they manage to defeat Cell and kill it. Coola is surprised that Freeza has reached his 5th form and decides not to kill him. He might even lose if he attacks him now. Back on the ship Freeza decides to destroy the earth. Already for the third time came an incredibly strong fighter from this planet who could compete with the Frost Demons in a fight. He is happy that he has reached his 5th form, but does not risk much more, that there are more surprises to come. So he destroys the earth just as he destroyed Planet Plant. Buu's cocoon is destroyed, as it is in DBM canon, if you open the cocoon prematurely or by a too large vibration to break up, Buu will die in the process. Afterwards, Coola decides to train regularly because Freeza is catching up to him.
Decades later, the Vargas invite the Frostdemons to the DBM tournament. Cold lost all his strong forces against the Cyborgs and therefore only Freeza's and Coola's forces are joining them to the tournament.
In this story, the frostdemons are capable of gaining stronger than in the actual DBM story but still in a credible way and in DBM canon. You just have to change some things, so it can fit the actual DBM story. So, Coldyu would be in final form from the beginning, but in the fight against Videl he wasn't being serious at all. So, he can be not serious in final form as well, till he decides to finish the fight by telling Videl to give up. Freeza would transform into 5th form after the magic trick against Goku didn't work. Goku would maybe allow Freeza to attack him to find out how much he improved by just blocking and dodging. Unfortunately, Goku realise that he is way stronger than Freeza 5th form and it would be time wasting to last it much longer, so he transform into SSJ2 and one-punch him, just to be sure (round 1: Goku wins in base, round 2: Goku wins in SSJ1, round 3: Goku wins in SSJ2. would be funny continuity). In the majin revolt Coola would transform into 6th form after Piccolo killed Freeza. Why so late and after he is injured? They said themselves that 5th form is better for drawn out fights, but when Coola realises that he is gonna die, so he transforms. And because he maintained training after the fight with Imperfect Cell, it sounds credible, maybe. Therfore, both Piccolos fight Coola together now.
Unfortunately, I could not implement Paragus and Broly is this story of mine. If Broly already survived a planet destruction as a baby, I just can't imagine how Freeza, Coola, and Coldyu could possibly deafeat & kill Broly. The DBM Broly is unbeatable for DBM frostdemons. So, I think the Minicomic is a good solution. Paragus has his own little empire and never alerts the frostdemons attentions and Broly being untransformed the Varga didn't bother to invite them as well. Dabura and Babidi on the other hand would defeat the frostdemons immediately. Majinations and Dabura's tier near to Perfect Cell. So, they never meet the frostdemons just as Broly. The Supreme Kais don't bother. And Bojack is still sealed by the Kais. That's it, I guess.
Why this story, when it doesn't improve the Frostdemons power in DBM canon so much? The mere thought that making someone solely more powerful is enough to make him more interesting is stupid. Freeza and Co. were lacking some development after last special. And I wanted to make it credible in the DBM canon. My changes for the beginning of DBM: Freeza: controlling 5th form perfectly but staying mostly 4th form, making 5th form a surprise. Coola: after regular training for decades he is at the limits to reach 6th form, after majination he can reach 6th form. Coldyu: staying 4th form constantly. Capable of transforming 6th form anytime he wants. after majination, a 7th form? Maybe.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 21:07:25 GMT
I really like your U8 storyline. Kinda want to see that in comic form now.
While I obviously cannot speak for Salagir, I simply think that because he already had the storyline of another Frostdemon (King Cold/Ginyu) beeing much stronger than in DBZ (based on the idea that Cold was in a restricted form in the manga) he thought that giving Freeza power-ups would be redundant and pointless because unless he dialed them up to ridiculous extremes (cough DBS cough), it wouldnt matter because power-level inflation. And what role could a stronger Freeza play in the tournament that isnt occupied by Cell/Buu/Cold/XXI/other villains?
So I understand why he kinda disregarded Freeza (or rather turned him into comc-relief with some exceptions) and I honestly dont mind, because just because Freeza cant keep up power-level-wise anymore doesnt diminish that he was once a very threatening villain and is still a great character, who is so evil that I do enjoy him beeing humiliated. I had a lot of fun with many scenes containing Freeza in this tournament.
|
|
??????
|
Post by QuentinShuai on Apr 11, 2018 23:41:01 GMT
That’s a long continuation. Save for later.
For the first part:
It is very true that many fanboys like or dislike a certain creations simply base on: how strong is my loving character..........That’s actually a LOT of people. And sadly (or not) DBM has already wiped out a good portion of them by first Frieza being weak and hilarious, then by limiting Saiyan’s pure strength to less than or equal to Mystic Gohan. Well I’d say it’s a matter of taste. For people willing to stick on Goku training SSJ38, Frieza turning golden etc, DBM simply isn’t that good attraction for them.
My thoughts for DBM frostdemon:
Frieza fans love DB Frieza mainly because he is the “emperor of the universe”. DB Cold? he is nobody but a man behind him and can’t even transform (that’s what some DB related description said). DBM actually expands Frieza’s background by putting Coola into canon, giving Cold transformations, giving Cold brother and father. These changes reasonably downplay Frieza’s role as an emperor, Frieza becomes a young prince that fully aware of he has a competing brother and an invincible father. In this case he’s not the exact villain in original DB that stands above every being in the universe. He’s just the third strongest one.
Still, one can easily tell Salagir has put great amount of efforts to develop Frieza. I mean it is not just to boost power (anyone can make Frieza crush ssj4 in their own fanart), but to establish an entire concept of FAMILY. That’s something innovative, it demands thoughts in this character and plot writing skill. For those who thought Salagir hates and humiliates Frieza on purpose, would you even bother establishing such background and family interactions for someone you dislike? say, Dodoria? XD
|
|
??????
|
Post by bk81 on Apr 13, 2018 16:52:54 GMT
That’s a long continuation. Save for later. For the first part: It is very true that many fanboys like or dislike a certain creations simply base on: how strong is my loving character..........That’s actually a LOT of people. And sadly (or not) DBM has already wiped out a good portion of them by first Frieza being weak and hilarious, then by limiting Saiyan’s pure strength to less than or equal to Mystic Gohan. Well I’d say it’s a matter of taste. For people willing to stick on Goku training SSJ38, Frieza turning golden etc, DBM simply isn’t that good attraction for them. My thoughts for DBM frostdemon: Frieza fans love DB Frieza mainly because he is the “emperor of the universe”. DB Cold? he is nobody but a man behind him and can’t even transform (that’s what some DB related description said). DBM actually expands Frieza’s background by putting Coola into canon, giving Cold transformations, giving Cold brother and father. These changes reasonably downplay Frieza’s role as an emperor, Frieza becomes a young prince that fully aware of he has a competing brother and an invincible father. In this case he’s not the exact villain in original DB that stands above every being in the universe. He’s just the third strongest one. Still, one can easily tell Salagir has put great amount of efforts to develop Frieza. I mean it is not just to boost power (anyone can make Frieza crush ssj4 in their own fanart), but to establish an entire concept of FAMILY. That’s something innovative, it demands thoughts in this character and plot writing skill. For those who thought Salagir hates and humiliates Frieza on purpose, would you even bother establishing such background and family interactions for someone you dislike? say, Dodoria? XD I second this. I mean Salagir just went with the original manga and tried to imagine a linear progression from that. Remember, this Freeza didn't ever meet a real Super Saiyan, just a normal Saiyan he erased with his final form. After that he made Freezer react in a natural way: he learns to control his final form, maybe even his 100%. Compared to his DBZ-version it's a clear improvement. I imagine he would be tougher and more durable than is U18 counterpart and Goku would have much harder time against this Freezer, he would have even lost IMHO. And now he has better use of his psychic powers and maybe an additional form to use. Freeza Saga Goku would be screwed, maybe even Goku after his training on Yardrat. Maybe if he faced a real Super Saiyan or a warrior stronger than U8 Goku he would have even trained, who knows. But it wouldn't be something like in RoF or Super. Not in DBM. In the novel they made a jab a it by imagining how strong freezer would have become if he trained seriously like in the Rosat. Don't start with Cold, who in reality is a seasoned warrior with exceptional battle skills. I think most critical posts are by fans that simply have different tastes on characters and how thy should be. That's fine and dandy! But only as long you respect the authors choice and that he's a different person with different ideas for HIS story. Salagir already did plenty with the Frost demons, shooting their power up to SSJ3 at hoc would be a bad decision by now and a betrayal of his story-line. He amplified the backstory of them, creating a real universe behind, instead of just pumping up their power from nowhere. I think that's more impressive than just invent a new form. But who knows, if Freezer is gonna be revived/cured/whatever he will remember his addition form and use it?
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Apr 14, 2018 4:59:10 GMT
Oh we really needed a thread like this. This debate is sprinkled into multiple other threads I believe. Damn. I know I made several posts on this subject myself. I've sided on the Freeza and the Frost Demons should have been allowed to improve along with the other major Dragon Ball villains (even Demon King Piccolo I believe was confirmed to be above the Freeza's old level, despite only having Kami in him unlike our Piccolo, who has Nail and Kami). It would be a while before I can find them and get them transferred to this thread. My main problem is Freeza is too much of the butt of every joke. Even his battle with Nappa could have been a great opportunity to show how both Nappa and Freeza had improved and given them both time to shine. Instead we got Nappa just making jabs at Freeza. The Freeza being too arrogant to train argument can apply to Vegeta, Demon King Piccolo, and Cell. Vegeta has this undeserved reputation of being a hard worker, but without Kakarot to show him up it is very unlikely his drive would be nearly as strong as the main Vegeta. I find the story treats Vegeta will naturally become a Super Saiyan or higher as given a bit too much to swallow. Having said that I do get why he would do that for Vegeta and Cell to make stronger opponents for the main universe.
I disagree with sentiments though that there could not be a scenario where Freeza and his family trains, especially considering the premise of the comic being every possibility could happen in a universe. Most of the rules and limitations on Freeza and his people in DBM were made up by Salagir, so logically he could have come up with a way to make him stronger if he wanted. At the end of the day he didn't want to and felt Freeza still being on the same level was more believable, which he has every right to do. This is his comic. I won't shit on him for doing that. I do think Universe 8 wasn't planned out as well as some other universes though that make the Frost Demon dominated universe less believable. There is no explanation on why Babidi hasn't killed Freeza and his family yet or enslaved them. He has Dabura and without the Z-fighters it seems unlikely that Supreme Kai and Kibito would stop Babidi or kill Dabura let alone keep Buu's shell safe. Even if they did somehow destroy the shell Babidi could still easily use his magic to enslave more fighters and use Dabura as his muscle to take control of Universe 8.
That is probably me nit picking more than anything though. I could see Universe 8 being the universe where Freeza barely beating Super Saiyan Goku could spur him on to train more. He doesn't necessarily need to have as much potential as Goku or Vegeta and could still be the weakest of the main villains (U13 Vegeta, Cell, U11 Buu, and U4 Buu all being stronger than him). He could just only made it up to SS2 level opponent, still keeps him from getting the extreme power up Toriyama went with for Golden Freeza and just have made Freeza a bit more formidable. If Freeza and Cooler went to SS2 level opponents in their fifth form than Ginyu in turn could have been made the SS3 level and we could have gotten a better match up for Bra who would need SS1 to fight. Of course that would have given Babidi stronger underlings as well. Or at the very least Universe 8 and Universe 11 should have been combined. Babidi using the Frost Demons to revive Majin Buu than using his magic to enslave them would make both universes make more sense. Majin controlled Frost Demons with their powers would make the weaker Frost Demons still being around make more sense.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Apr 15, 2018 0:02:09 GMT
I don't see how it's possible that Frieza did not train and get stronger. Especially since U8 is a thing where Frieza literally trained and somehow only ended up with better control of his current forms but apparently did not gain one iota of strength or even get his older brother's transformation, to the point where SS1 Goku is effortlessly beating him with a single punch.
Furthermore, I don't see the harm in letting Frieza be stronger either. I'm not exactly saying we need Golden Frieza, especially since if we transplanted Golden Frieza from DBS he'd effortlessly sweep the entire DBM tournament, but a stronger Frieza in general...why not? He's the #1 DBZ villain in terms of popularity and it isn't like he'd be the strongest foe there anyway, right? Not with Zen Buu or Cell standing there, or the number of retcons made to Broly to make him viable as a fighter again. It's not like the idea of Frost Demons getting stronger is anathema to DBM either, since all we need to do is take a gander over at Ginyu/Cold's new form to see that the idea is clearly there.
It really seems like the idea of Frieza being a joke is being carried over from the old DBZ movies:
...which is a shame.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 0:17:54 GMT
It doesnt' matter if Freeza trained or not since their biology doesn't allow the power level returns like it does for other species with Cooler being an example of this. All their training can truly accomplish is controlling their unstable power in their hihest form and/perfecting new techniques since the man way in which they gain power is through ageing.
Bla bla Ginyu trained. He sure fucken did and unleashed the potential of Kolds body through his expertise in ki control ovrr fuck knows how long he has ben alive.
Whether fanboiz like it or not the Frost Demons have been given a fair showing in DBM and aside from Coola have been impro ed upon greatly and I sure as fuck appreciate the fact DBM is nothing like DBS and just throws out a bs new form to a character that is incapable of achieving at this present time, so far at least....
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Apr 15, 2018 0:58:44 GMT
It doesnt' matter if Freeza trained or not since their biology doesn't allow the power level returns like it does for other species with Cooler being an example of this. ...which is a DBM invention, is it not? Much like Invincible Broly? I'd say a lot of the criticism (to include this thread) for the Frost Demon treatment stems from how they were adapted for DBM. Cooler first shows that gaining power through augmentation is possible, since he was literally the first ever Frost Demon to actually train and improve his skills. Ginyu then follows up with the second transformation, showing that training is the best way for a Frost Demon to gain power, much like most things in DB. Age is certainly a factor in Frost Demon power, but if age alone determined everything then how could Cooler possibly hope to overthrow his father? I'd say this is probably why he trained in the first place, planning to one day overthrow Cold and cut down the time it would require thanks to unlocking an augmentation form. As it stands it seems obvious that training is the better route. First they train and master their current form so they don't accidentally blow up the planet or something, then get the Shredder form debuted by Cooler and then get another unprecedented, never-seen-before giant form with multiple arms. I'd agree that King Cold (via Ginyu) has been given a fair showing. He isn't stupidly powerful like Golden Frieza but gained a respectable power increase nonetheless, but Cooler and Frieza are decidedly stuck in the Namek Saga with only minor improvements on Frieza's end. For all of Cooler's dreams of overthrowing Cold he seems to have decisively not moved at all despite having the motive and the drive to become the first ever to unlock augmentation, and Frieza's done even less.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 1:27:15 GMT
Axalon - And for all of Coolas training he is exactly fuck all ahead of Freeza if at all once Freeza obtained the same augmentation. This is why I mentioned that their training would be better centred around ki control and/or techniques since direct power boosts outside of them overcoming a wall to a new form are negligible outside of them aging. No amount of training will allow Coola or Freeza to catch up to Koldyu which is an adaption I quite like. My point wasn't to say them training is completely worthless but isn't as viable for them as it is for other species. Ginyu had Kolds significantly older body to work with and it stands to reason that he would not have been able to replicate his success were he in either Coola or Freeza. People complain that they aren't strong enough but given their natures and the fact they are already running their galaxy they have no reason whatsoever to even try getting stronger than the efforts they have already implemented. For what its worth I am happy with how Salagir has adapted and handled the Frost trio.
|
|
??????
|
Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Apr 15, 2018 2:30:32 GMT
Axalon - And for all of Coolas training he is exactly fuck all ahead of Freeza if at all once Freeza obtained the same augmentation. This is why I mentioned that their training would be better centred around ki control and/or techniques since direct power boosts outside of them overcoming a wall to a new form are negligible outside of them aging. No amount of training will allow Coola or Freeza to catch up to Koldyu which is an adaption I quite like. My point wasn't to say them training is completely worthless but isn't as viable for them as it is for other species. Ginyu had Kolds significantly older body to work with and it stands to reason that he would not have been able to replicate his success were he in either Coola or Freeza.
People complain that they aren't strong enough but given their natures and the fact they are already running their galaxy they have no reason whatsoever to even try getting stronger than the efforts they have already implemented. For what its worth I am happy with how Salagir has adapted and handled the Frost trio. To add on to this, unless we explain how and why Babidi never encountered the Frieza Force, he never met any enemy stronger than his final form, only when Goku managed to scrape his First Reduction form (coming from "No-Ginyu Zenkai, Kaioken X 10" Goku no less, Not even Super Saiyan!!!) did Frieza throw a hissy fit and go "FINAL FORM!" I'm not sure when Cooler revealed to the family he had his 5th Form, depending on this tidbit, Frieza might have thought maintaining his current form was sufficient to overthrow his brother. Other than that, did he ever have intentions to overthrow his father as well? Nothing comes to mind.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 9:06:44 GMT
I prefer the theory that they realize more of their potential as they age because it explains how Cooler trained to unlock a new form yet didn't grow any stronger in his regular form and why King Cold's 2nd form was so much more powerful than his sons despite little to no training.
In DBM, I recall Cooler saying he planned to overthrow Cold after a few hundred years as his power grew. At that point, they would both be at their full potential and Cooler may have assumed his 5th form would give him the advantage.
Giving Freeza a big power-up would require overcomplicating when it wouldn't have much of an impact on the overall story. Did King Cold train really hard to far outclass his sons in his original form, stopped, and then could only remain in his 2nd form? Did Cooler only focus on unlocking an augmented form when he could've trained in his original form and grew several times stronger?
Either that and ignore the theory completely to make Freeza stronger. That would require not incorporating Cooler and assuming King Cold was in his final form against Trunks and can't transform or wouldn't be much stronger than Freeza.
In both cases, it wouldn't make much of a difference unless Salagir rearranged the tournament bracket or makes Freeza SSJ3 tier so he wouldn't be one-shotted by Goku. As long as the author gives a plausible explanation, I would be okay with it than simply strengthen a character for the sake of fan service. This applies to all the characters. Piccolo is one of my favorite characters but I'm okay with him still bring below a SSJ2. The author goal should be to go with what they think makes sense for the story and not pick and choose which fan base they want to appeal to.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Apr 15, 2018 14:46:33 GMT
Axalon - And for all of Coolas training he is exactly fuck all ahead of Freeza if at all once Freeza obtained the same augmentation. He IS ahead of Frieza though...because he trained and got a new form. He's also slightly stronger than Frieza when both are in the same form, per Salagir. We don't know that. There might be some new and unprecedented 20-armed Godzilla-sized form that Cooler becomes hellbent on discovering following Ginyu's discovery and the revelation that he's behind again. Or maybe there are alternate paths to take in the augmentation form line, similar to the different paths the Saiyans undertook in the quest to SS2. Or perhaps Frieza discovers some shiny golden form. Augmentation forms are still a relatively new discovery for Frost Demons, with Cooler literally being the first of his kind to ever discover they exist. That said, I understand what you're saying in that training doesn't have the same impact on them as they would say, Saiyans. I'm even perfectly fine with this. In DBM the Saiyans actually work much the same way, with caps on power that get broken upon reaching the next level of Super Saiyan, or if you're some freak like Gohan. I just think they should've been a bit stronger is all, instead of being stuck at Namek Saga levels with no progression. Except Frieza and Cooler do have motivation, Cooler more than Frieza. Sure they aren't battle junkies like Goku, but we know Cooler for a fact is gunning for Cold's throne which is why he bothered to pioneer augmentation forms in the first place. Cooler by his mere existence defies the explanation of Frost Demons never wanting to train, since he was blatantly the first one to ever do so and was rewarded for it, yet had the clarity to seemingly realize it still wasn't enough against his father. This is also purely from DBM as well, since we know little to nothing about DBZ Movie Cooler beyond the obvious. The fact that he hadn't already murdered Cold in a bloody coup seems to me like Salagir is suggesting that even with the augmentation form, he's not strong enough to defeat 2nd Form Cold quickly enough before he can transform. @skar suggests something like Cooler cooling off (eh? Eh?) for a couple centuries so he can get the age powerup or something...even though Cold would ALSO be getting older and stronger and still have his own "Final Form" in reserve should Cooler try to kill him, with Cooler possibly banking on his augmentation form being stronger than Cold's by that point millennia-old Final Form. If Cold's lifespan is anything like Frieza's (1500 years per Salagir) then Cold still has another 500 or so years to go before dying of old age. This is all not counting any of Ginyu's shenanigans either. Purely just the OG King Cold of U8. These are all obstacles in Cooler's way, yet even some 20-odd years later Future Trunks is making a mockery of him with zero effort, much like he did to Frieza/Cold in his universe. This isn't even counting why the Frost Demons have never run into Babadi or Dabura, which would be a much greater threat to their empire than SS1 Goku just by Dabura's sheer power alone, nevermind getting Majinized, which was a problem even in DBZ (mainly because Toriyama hadn't thought that far ahead). On an unrelated note...speaking of Future Trunks, has Salagir offered an explanation (Help me Ashanark, you're my only hope) as to why Cold didn't transform against him? In DBZ the explanation IIRC was that Frieza was stronger than Cold, which is not the case in DBM. So why didn't Cold bother to transform against Trunks despite seeing his son get turned into bloody gibs effortlessly? We even get confirmation from Piccolo that Final Form Cold would've smashed Future Trunks! So what gives?
|
|
??????
|
Post by bk81 on Apr 15, 2018 15:25:04 GMT
If we can use the fanfic "One way" for this, where we can see the original battle of the Z-fighters against (the real) Cold and Freezer, than Cold simply didn't have the time to think about it. Lucky for him Trunks he didn't joke around like some other Saiyans and killed him in 2 minutes. I don't think Trunks would have won against 1st reduction form Cold, but maybe he would have stalled enough for Goku to teleport there and help him. * When Cold looses his cool (pun intended) he instinctively tries to transform into his final form, but he' is fighting it with every fiber of his body, and becomes unstable. It's made clear that it's a thing he wants absolutely to avoid. So I go with the idea that Cold was too surprised and cooky (remember his U7 counterpart?) to realize in time he has to transform, and he would have been open in the process, and Trunks would have killed him in that moment. That's it.
* edit: that would be cool to read in comic-form...
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 15, 2018 16:24:40 GMT
Ultimately, the only reason why people complain about Freeza being weak, is because Golden Freeza happened in the first place.
With this being said, boosting him to SSJ3 level or more would be just ridiculous (even if it would please those kind of fans, or not) but boosting him to a mere SSJ2 or Perfect Cell Level would just not be enough to be a threat in the tournament. Basically, developing him into a SSJ2 fighters would take more effort but would accomplish absolutely nothing. Nonwithstanding Ginyu/Cold is already occupying that place.
I am fine with Freeza being the butt of the jokes. His last appearances on DBZ make him the butt of jokes. And his destiny-life was a lot more pathetic in U8 than in U18. I am surprised on the other hand he isn't even weaker (like Shin in U1 is) or hasn't serious mental hang-ups.
There are better things to complain in my opinion, such as Future Trunks without SSJ2.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Apr 15, 2018 18:38:02 GMT
Ultimately, the only reason why people complain about Freeza being weak, is because Golden Freeza happened in the first place. With this being said, boosting him to SSJ3 level or more would be just ridiculous (even if it would please those kind of fans, or not) but boosting him to a mere SSJ2 or Perfect Cell Level would just not be enough to be a threat in the tournament. Basically, developing him into a SSJ2 fighters would take more effort but would accomplish absolutely nothing. Nonwithstanding Ginyu/Cold is already occupying that place. I wouldn't say that in regards to Golden Frieza being the only reason. I'm positive it increased the demand a thousand-fold when post-DBS watchers stumbled on DBM, but I wouldn't say the only reason. Other characters who haven't been developed at all in DBS like Cell and Buu have both gotten powered up in DBM, Cell to SS3-levels and Buu to Vegito-levels. Frieza on the other hand has had no progress. Some are pointing out that Frieza just wouldn't do anything (never mind the fact he did do something) in regards to training, but we can also just point to Cell and show his own increases even though he also has no inclination to train. I'd say this is really more a symptom of DBM's power creep as a whole to be honest. It isn't nearly as bad as what DBS did with god ki and Golden Frieza, but honestly even SS3 levels aren't a "threat" in this tournament. SS3 as a threat went out the window the instant Vegito was introduced. Logically one has to be at or around Zen Buu if they wanted to truly qualify as a "threat" in terms of pure power levels. If we're saying one has to be SS3 to be relevant then we can just throw out 95% of the roster and focus solely on people stronger than Goku, the bottom of the barrel in terms of SS3 in DBM. Now, I'm not saying Frieza should be boosted to SS3, since as you said that would be ridiculous. SS2 even might be too far. I do think there should've been some progress though with Cooler and Frieza. In fact, it wouldn't even have needed to be a significant power boost at all. I think one of the main appeals of DBM is the chance for a bunch of What If? type scenarios to happen. As an example, "What If...all the Namekians fused to fight Frieza?" was a question put to paper with the introduction of Gast. To take another example, let's look at U18 Vegeta. He's been hinted as having something under his sleeve for years now (not a senzu bean I would hope) but even without that and only a Buu Saga level performance he's had fun fights to watch because of his characterization, not because of his measly SS2 power level. Would this change anything, in regards to the outcomes of the fights? No, not without shuffling the tournament. Do I wish things could've gone differently though, to include the tournament lineup? Absolutely. I know I don't speak for others, so maybe they really DO want to see power levels and nothing more, but when I want to see cool Frieza stuff I don't want to see just pure power levels. If I did I would've just LOVED Golden Frieza...which up until DBS one-upped itself was the single worst powerup ever. No, what I would've liked to see more of would be stuff like this: Or this: Or this: Frieza can be positively vicious and sadistic, which is an aspect of his character that's been lacking in DBM because they chose to make him the butt of the jokes. Now, obviously what's done is done and there's no going back, but that's just something I wish could've happened. But alas. Perhaps he's inherited some of Gohan's slacker genes.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 15, 2018 19:05:46 GMT
AxalonWhat do you think about how Majin Cooler and 5th Form Freeza fared against Piccolo (who should be above Cell Jr level).
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Apr 15, 2018 19:30:07 GMT
Axalon What do you think about how Majin Cooler and 5th Form Freeza fared against Piccolo (who should be above Cell Jr level). I think I said this in some thread somewhere, but I was more confused by Piccolo's seeming weakness against the both of them and that he shouldn't have had as much trouble as he did against them. Mainly as a direct result of their lack of progress since the Namek Saga, since Piccolo should by all accounts have wiped the floor with them since of all the Frost Demons only Ginyu/Cold had the power to actually crush him even before Majinization. Since both Cooler and Frieza have decidedly not moved in power, their threat levels as Majins shouldn't have been a bother to someone like Kamiccolo, let alone one who has been training past the Buu Saga. If they truly were to be actual threats to Piccolo then they should've been stronger to begin with, so the Majin boost would've boosted them that much higher. For them to be threats they would've had to have been boosted several "tiers" considering they were below SS1 prior to being Majinized.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 21:24:36 GMT
@skar suggests something like Cooler cooling off (eh? Eh?) for a couple centuries so he can get the age powerup or something...even though Cold would ALSO be getting older and stronger and still have his own "Final Form" in reserve should Cooler try to kill him, with Cooler possibly banking on his augmentation form being stronger than Cold's by that point millennia-old Final Form. If Cold's lifespan is anything like Frieza's (1500 years per Salagir) then Cold still has another 500 or so years to go before dying of old age. This is all not counting any of Ginyu's shenanigans either. Purely just the OG King Cold of U8. These are all obstacles in Cooler's way, yet even some 20-odd years later Future Trunks is making a mockery of him with zero effort, much like he did to Frieza/Cold in his universe. Cooler mentioned on page 1082 that he believes he could've surpassed King Cold within a few hundred years. I think the idea is that King Cold is a fully grown Frost Demon so his power won't grow anymore with age. Cooler would catch up to King Cold in a few hundred years and have the advantage due to learning to control his original. I don't have a problem with how the Frost Demons were handled in DBM because I would've personally done a lot less for them. At most I would've had 5th form King Cold at ASSJ tier but no 6th form and have probably need his 5th form to defeat Bardock. I would've had Majin Cooler and Freeza put up some resistance against Piccolo but have him kill them both on his own. Freeza was one of my favorite villains but I would've felt that would be enough for their contribution to the story.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Apr 15, 2018 21:57:01 GMT
I agree with both Khan and Axalon to certain extents. If Golden Freeza never happened that fans who saw new DB movies/DBS first before they read DBM wouldn't care about Freeza. On the other hand Freeza is arguably the most popular villain in the franchise. In the west it is Freeza and Cell as the most popular villain, but I think in Japan Cell just didn't live up to Freeza's hype (and I think that is a big reason why Toriyama/Toei didn't bring him back too) and Vegeta is loved more on the heroes side than as the villain. When it comes to a fan made product that brings back all the classic villains and adds some movie villains into the mix and all the most major villains of the franchise (Piccolo, Vegeta, Cell, and Majin Buu) all have major improvements in the villains worlds where they won it makes Freeza's lack of progress or prominence more noticeable. Love it or hate it Freeza is just so big and part of such major milestones in the series as a whole that this criticism and complaint of him not being treated properly was always going to exist in some form, which I think is what Axalon was getting at.
Another thing hurting it is that unlike U2, U6, U10, and U15 which were mostly the joke ones and had their competitors leave when the story started getting more serious is that U8 has remained and are part of the action and plot even this late into it. If that is the case leaving them weaker or at the same level as they were in canon hurts their credibility as a whole. If they are jokes than they should have left by now once we got our good laugh at how weak they are now, not given more attention and be part of this revolt. When we get Freeza and Cooler as part of the Majin Revolt and not be killed instantly by Piccolo it causes confusion. Axalon isn't the one who felt like the comic unintentionally made U18 Piccolo out to be weaker than he should be by frankly wasting his cool new technique (with an actual drawback) on them and needing his U16 counterpart to save him. U8 probably should have been given the boot and U6 be the ones to have stayed. Bojack is Perfect Cell level and his last two crew members are at least strong enough to give Future Trunks, Piccolo, and Vegeta challenge in the Bojack movie. Had they been possessed instead of the Frost Demons nothing is really lost and Babidi actually would have gotten stronger henchmen. Piccolo using his cool new technique to take out Bojack or one of his crew would have been met with less confusion and more excitement.
Universe 8 is in a weird place where it is supposed to be a joke, yet still be part over the larger story as befits Freeza's status as a legendary villain. I think that with how DBM is written that the two sides aren't as compatible. It probably should have just been given the Broly treatment where some new things were added to strengthen them up a bit so they could take part in the larger story as they are right now.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Apr 16, 2018 2:21:10 GMT
@skar suggests something like Cooler cooling off (eh? Eh?) for a couple centuries so he can get the age powerup or something...even though Cold would ALSO be getting older and stronger and still have his own "Final Form" in reserve should Cooler try to kill him, with Cooler possibly banking on his augmentation form being stronger than Cold's by that point millennia-old Final Form. If Cold's lifespan is anything like Frieza's (1500 years per Salagir) then Cold still has another 500 or so years to go before dying of old age. This is all not counting any of Ginyu's shenanigans either. Purely just the OG King Cold of U8. These are all obstacles in Cooler's way, yet even some 20-odd years later Future Trunks is making a mockery of him with zero effort, much like he did to Frieza/Cold in his universe. Cooler mentioned on page 1082 that he believes he could've surpassed King Cold within a few hundred years. I think the idea is that King Cold is a fully grown Frost Demon so his power won't grow anymore with age. Cooler would catch up to King Cold in a few hundred years and have the advantage due to learning to control his original. I don't have a problem with how the Frost Demons were handled in DBM because I would've personally done a lot less for them. At most I would've had 5th form King Cold at ASSJ tier but no 6th form and have probably need his 5th form to defeat Bardock. I would've had Majin Cooler and Freeza put up some resistance against Piccolo but have him kill them both on his own. Freeza was one of my favorite villains but I would've felt that would be enough for their contribution to the story. On the other hand, I think it'd be an interesting take if it DID grow with age! Just think, it would put even more light into Frieza's wish for immortality on Namek! Not only will he become the eternal Emperor of the Universe, but now Frieza can sit back in his hover chair, sip on his wine, and just chill out without putting in any work while Cooler works his ass off to no avail. The only price Frieza has to pay is playing the long game, and even IF something mysterious like the Legendary Super Saiyan pops up at worst he can just outlive the whole ordeal while growing stronger over the millennia.
|
|