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Post by Son Pan on May 28, 2018 7:29:14 GMT
Well in fairness if Vegetto used SS2 and SS3 later we would probably still see everyone's reactions to how insanely powerful he is. It would just be later, but we would likely get the same result as we did with Broly. It would still be shocking that Vegetto lose to XXI. I don't see how seeing Vegetto's full power vs. not seeing it, but with our knowledge that we have never seen Vegetto at full power would have more impact. Really I just feel like the entertainment value of fights shouldn't be dismissed from these conversations. I was more of trying to convince you that changes or doing things differently for say making a better fight isn't necessarily a bad thing. I personally felt Broly's changes were due to personal preference and to give us a kick ass fight with Vegetto, which admitted I liked, but just felt it served no real purpose beyond it.
It essentially why I don't really think making Freeza and his family stronger for the sake of better fights is a inherently a bad idea. On the topic of Salagir's theory for Freeza's people I'm not really going to say it is a bad idea or that he should have abandoned it because of my preference. I would more argue that he made up those rules, which is fine, but it is hard to argue or debate that because he went that way doesn't mean he couldn't have gone another way. Often times when this debate comes up the defense simply go into well it happened that way so that's it. If we're going to discuss this than we should acknowledge all possibilities this could have gone too, just like we do with other DB discussions.
I just plain disagree with you on your assessment that having stronger Frost Demons means everyone dies who isn't Gohan. There are definitely ways to make things more even.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 8:50:20 GMT
It essentially why I don't really think making Freeza and his family stronger for the sake of better fights is a inherently a bad idea. On the topic of Salagir's theory for Freeza's people I'm not really going to say it is a bad idea or that he should have abandoned it because of my preference. I would more argue that he made up those rules, which is fine, but it is hard to argue or debate that because he went that way doesn't mean he couldn't have gone another way. Often times when this debate comes up the defense simply go into well it happened that way so that's it. If we're going to discuss this than we should acknowledge all possibilities this could have gone too, just like we do with other DB discussions. I've stated multiple times that there were many ways to go about handling the Frost Demons. I'm saying the theory that was given works so I don't think it's fair to demand that the theory should be changed with the main argument being because it doesn't allow the Frost Demons to be as strong as some fans would've liked. It feels like they're looking at what Salagir didn't do with the Frost Demons and not taking into consideration that he did more for them than was possible in the manga at the time. Nothing in the manga implied the Frost Demons could get as strong as King Cold was made in DBM. It never explained if King Cold could transform and it was fanon based on the form he was in looking the same as Freeza's 2nd form. Salagir made the assumption that his 2nd form's power was around a suppressed 4th form Freeza and scaled his higher forms from there. He also made it possible for them to transform beyond a 5th form. 5th form Cooler was powered-up to be as strong Post-Yardrat SSJ Goku while in the movie he was weaker than Freeza saga SSJ Goku. For the film to fit in the timeline, it would have to take place after Goku returned from Yardrat but it was actually released during the Freeza saga so that was as strong as Goku could've been at the time. It explains why he had trouble turning SSJ because it was only revealed that he learned to transform at will in the story a few months after the movie was released. In DBM, the Frost Demons still retain their title of strongest mortals without transformations. DBM is one of the few fanfics I've seen with the base Saiyans never surpassing the Frost Demons while many other authors assume that the base Saiyans could one-shot them by the Buu saga. The only available characters besides Gohan that could take on SSJ3 tier Frost Demons are Bra and the Heloites. I doubt fans would want to see Bra defeat King Cold a second time and Heloites would go for the kill as quickly as they possible like they tried doing against Kakarotto and Dabura. The only other option I could think of is having the two Piccolo's fuse together but I don't remember if it's been implied that Porunga could undo Namekian fusion. I'm sure there are other suggestions out there but I can't agree that he should consider them just to power-up the Majin Frost Demons by so much and have someone strong enough to defeat them.
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Post by Son Pan on May 28, 2018 9:32:19 GMT
1. That is fair.
2. Universe 9's whole appeal was using teamwork and techniques to defeat enemies more powerful than them. I imagine they would be a big part in helping to organize the remaining fighters to defeat stronger enemies. Universe 19's weaponry could go a long way as well. The Supreme Kai working together are able to push Dabura to his limits. I can see the remaining fighters working together could pull some upsets. I do see more losses though. That is assuming Piccolo can't learn Kaioken or come up his own enhancement technique to boost his power. Or if that is too outlanish than I could see Piccolo or even one of the Universe 9 creating a restraining technique just like the Supreme Kai have. A technique like that can restrain enemies much stronger than the user, with some difficulty, which could also really help with Universe 19 warrior's super weaponry. It doesn't necessarily need stronger heroes to justify the defeats if the heroes are a bit smarter. I think we can both agree that DBM has done a fairly decent job at reintroducing more diverse ki techniques back into DB, which had been lost in the Z era, and trying to allow for skill, technique, and strategy to some extent play a part in battles. At the very least it would be cool to see all hands on deck with stronger Frost Demons forcing more universes to work together, while U16 Gohan faces off against Cell and U18 Gohan goes looking for Babidi.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 3:08:32 GMT
2. Universe 9's whole appeal was using teamwork and techniques to defeat enemies more powerful than them. I imagine they would be a big part in helping to organize the remaining fighters to defeat stronger enemies. Universe 19's weaponry could go a long way as well. The Supreme Kai working together are able to push Dabura to his limits. I can see the remaining fighters working together could pull some upsets. I do see more losses though. That is assuming Piccolo can't learn Kaioken or come up his own enhancement technique to boost his power. Or if that is too outlanish than I could see Piccolo or even one of the Universe 9 creating a restraining technique just like the Supreme Kai have. A technique like that can restrain enemies much stronger than the user, with some difficulty, which could also really help with Universe 19 warrior's super weaponry. It doesn't necessarily need stronger heroes to justify the defeats if the heroes are a bit smarter. I think we can both agree that DBM has done a fairly decent job at reintroducing more diverse ki techniques back into DB, which had been lost in the Z era, and trying to allow for skill, technique, and strategy to some extent play a part in battles. At the very least it would be cool to see all hands on deck with stronger Frost Demons forcing more universes to work together, while U16 Gohan faces off against Cell and U18 Gohan goes looking for Babidi. I just think the power difference would be too great for a few SSJ-FPSSJ tier characters to take on the three SSJ3 tier Frost Demons. In DBZ, a wide enough gap in power meant that technique would be less effective. For example, Choatzu could use his paralysis on Goku and Krillin in Dragonball but it was useless against Nappa. Since East Kaioshin had trouble restraining SSJ2 Gohan during the Buu saga, someone at SSJ3 tier might be too much for them. I could see teamwork working against one of the Frost Demons but not all three when they're all watching out for each other. The other heroes would have to distract the Frost Demons while the remaining Heloites deliver the killing blow. Without the Heloites, I don't think the other heroes could stand a chance. I would be really against the Frost Demons being anywhere close to SSJ3 tier to be honest. The other canon villains were given power-ups based on what Salagir felt was possible for them in the manga. King Piccolo fused with Kami, U13 Vegeta was given transformations that our Vegeta was capable of achieving, Cell has Saiyan DNA so he could theoretically have as much potential as them, and Buu absorbed more people to grow stronger and gain new abilities like he was doing as Super Buu. King Cold was already powered-up well beyond what the manga implied he could achieve and was given an additional form to reach Perfect Cell tier. If I was writing the story, I would've only given them a fifth form but had all three still weaker than Imperfect Cell because I didn't feel the manga implied they could get much stronger than that.
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Post by EvilXoda on Jun 17, 2018 3:30:15 GMT
Damn, been awhile since I posted here. This has been a problem with me for awhile. I don't really hold it too much against Salagir, but it's nonetheless grating, as my personal dislike is wasted or useless characters, characters that are thrown to the wayside and/or made repeated jokes of, which Freeza and Cooler look to be.
But my problem personally doesn't come from them losing battles. It's just... overall. In and out of the ring, they're almost non-stop walking jokes to the plot, with Cold being the only redeeming point. (and in the end, he got the joy of being overpowered to the utter limit so he could be totaled by a baselevel Bra. Goodie.)
I mean I didn't expect or really want them to be DBSuper'd, and I don't think he's doing it intentionally. But if this was all Freeza and Cooler had going for themselves, barely managing anything against Kamiccolo (the mental thing he gave Freeza in the Goku/Freeza fight was cool, but it's practically useless in actual combat) maybe they should've stayed home and let Cinyu handle business.
An aside, but I don't see why they are really as weak as this series makes them out to be though; if he was able to give Cold such massive boosts, I don't see why he couldn't have figured out something similar with Cooler and Freeza, so they could atleast give a Kamiccolo a good fight solo. I mean, King Vegeta has SSJ2, presumably to ward off coming challenges either from across the universe or by Kakarotto. Why wouldn't Cooler and Freeza face similar problems in their timeline that forces them to push their limits some?
Anyway, I hope they turn out to have some point before the end of the manga other than for the Ginyu plot.
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Post by Super Saiyan God Vegeto on Jun 17, 2018 6:30:22 GMT
Honestly I feel like all of the Frost Demons have extreme potential even in DBM Without Ginyu Cooler is the only one that really ( albeit remotely) realizes this That’s what makes him special. Personally I imagine a universe where Cooler is number 1 He’s the only Frost Demon with an actual drive to get better, he just doesn’t know the most effective ways to get better Imagine Cooler with a gravity training room or a Hyperbolic Time Chamber...... Honestly a universe where Cooler defeats ssj Goku in their fight during his fixed special seems quite realistic to me. All it would take is for Cooler to pop a shield instead of just waiting around for Goku to pop up on him Then Goku’s surprise instant transmission attack would’ve been ineffective (just like Cell’s was against Nedwook) and bam Cooler emerges victorious Besides Cooler always seemed less evil than Frieza and his father and always seemed to speak to his men with more respect and dignity That also sets him apart from the others in his family And he clearly seems more intelligent, as you all have already pointed out His head is obviously ‘less’ in the clouds than Frieza and his father.
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Post by Super Saiyan God Vegeto on Jun 17, 2018 6:32:08 GMT
Unfortunately Saligir can’t include ‘every’ possible universe....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 7:33:00 GMT
Unfortunately Saligir can’t include ‘every’ possible universe.... I believe U21 more than makes up for that.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 21, 2018 17:50:56 GMT
Two months later, but eh, whatever! I'm saying I wouldn't really want Goku to lose to Freeza at all. Their battle was a lot more entertaining than I expected which is why I can't really ask for more I guess. I probably would've just had Freeza transform into his 5th form, Freeza mentions how he killed Goku in his universe and Goku comments how Freeza helped him turn SSJ for the first and how he would've had trouble on Namek if Freeza had unlocked this form then Goku knocks him out. I suppose this is just down to a difference in opinion then. I didn't find the Old Man Goku fight particularly interesting since even with crippling advanced age he was still able to one-shot Frieza, which is why I wasn't particularly satisfied with it. You found it more entertaining than expected, so glass half-empty vs glass half-full I suppose. I don't think that's the only option. Pure desperation for survival is always a great motivating factor when used correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 21:11:51 GMT
I suppose this is just down to a difference in opinion then. I didn't find the Old Man Goku fight particularly interesting since even with crippling advanced age he was still able to one-shot Frieza, which is why I wasn't particularly satisfied with it. You found it more entertaining than expected, so glass half-empty vs glass half-full I suppose. I just think Freeza being immortal and winning against Goku would just be a shocking twist that wouldn't benefit the story that much. XXI had an unexpected victory over Vegetto but he's being setup as the big bad of the story and he's likely going to make it far in the tournament. Goku vs Uub would be a lot more entertaining than Freeza vs Uub in my opinion. Freeza wouldn't last long against Uub since Uub wouldn't have a reason to hold back against him. If Freeza survives a strong blast from Uub, Uub would realize something is preventing Freeza from dying or getting knocked unconscious. Uub would probably give up on trying to hurt Freeza and blast him off into space long before Uub runs out of energy.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 22, 2018 23:27:13 GMT
I suppose this is just down to a difference in opinion then. I didn't find the Old Man Goku fight particularly interesting since even with crippling advanced age he was still able to one-shot Frieza, which is why I wasn't particularly satisfied with it. You found it more entertaining than expected, so glass half-empty vs glass half-full I suppose. I just think Freeza being immortal and winning against Goku would just be a shocking twist that wouldn't benefit the story that much. XXI had an unexpected victory over Vegetto but he's being setup as the big bad of the story and he's likely going to make it far in the tournament. Goku vs Uub would be a lot more entertaining than Freeza vs Uub in my opinion. Freeza wouldn't last long against Uub since Uub wouldn't have a reason to hold back against him. If Freeza survives a strong blast from Uub, Uub would realize something is preventing Freeza from dying or getting knocked unconscious. Uub would probably give up on trying to hurt Freeza and blast him off into space long before Uub runs out of energy. I feel Goku vs Uub honestly wouldn't be all that interesting either to be fair, save for a slightly bigger, flashier, more drawn out, more Michael Bay-ier version of what we saw in GT where Goku and Uub were sparring at Dende's Lookout in the first episode. It's already been done, except this time Goku would just be a Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and Uub knows a few more techniques. Quite frankly, I agree that Frieza being immortal wouldn't benefit the story that much given the power difference between him and Uub save for the shock value of Frieza defeating Goku and being immortal, but I see no net gain from Goku vs Uub happening either, which is why I think I'd prefer having that shock value. I'm not saying Salagir and Asura can't make the fight between Goku and Uub look interesting or entertaining, it's just a fight I personally have no stake or interest in. FWIW, I don't think Frieza vs Uub would be an interesting fight either, since I would've only wanted that to happen just to have Goku lose for the twist. The way the bracket system is set up, the entire left side of the tournament bracket is completely ineffectual compared to the right side. When the two sides eventually clash, assuming the tournament EVER gets back on track, I don't see anyone from the left side winning without some major DBS and DBGT combined-level hax going on. Whatever Vegeta's secret powerup is that's been hinted at for years now, we already know that compared to Gotenks both he and Goku are weaker (given how Goku was pestering him about Gotenks and his power level and all Vegeta could do was glare off to the side) and Zen Buu just toyed around with that Gotenks. Regardless of who advances to the final round from that side, whether it be Goku, Frieza, Uub, Cell, or Vegeta, it now doesn't matter, if it ever even did. All the BIG heavy hitters are on the opposite side, and that's not even counting the already defeated Vegito and Broly. It's completely mismatched. We've seen or can safely theorize on everyone's maximum on the left side and U16 Bra, Zen Buu, XXI and Gast are all mega-powerful OCs just chilling on the right side, with the weakest of them (Gast if we don't count XXI's magics and seeming physical frailty) being at a SS3 level without the insane DBM power drain. Assuming just straight fights happen all the way through without some kind of disqualification or cheap forfeit in between there's no way I see anyone from that side winning against someone like Bra or Zen Buu. It's like expecting Chiaotzu to win the Cell Games. Only by the most contrived events possible could someone theoretically win from the left bracket and that's if Cell ended up facing off against Gast and retained his Majin power boost. Cell would then win the arm chopping contest. So to come full circle, yeah, I think I would've liked Frieza beating Goku via the mind games/immortality thing then he can lose to Uub turning him into a strawberry and trapping him in a coconut shell for 30 seconds for all I care, since I don't realistically see Goku or Uub amounting to much in the tournament as a whole unless Goku just pops Super Saiyan Blue out of nowhere or something, so let the fights be crazy and insane!
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jul 23, 2018 4:18:46 GMT
Damn, been awhile since I posted here. This has been a problem with me for awhile. I don't really hold it too much against Salagir, but it's nonetheless grating, as my personal dislike is wasted or useless characters, characters that are thrown to the wayside and/or made repeated jokes of, which Freeza and Cooler look to be. But my problem personally doesn't come from them losing battles. It's just... overall. In and out of the ring, they're almost non-stop walking jokes to the plot, with Cold being the only redeeming point. (and in the end, he got the joy of being overpowered to the utter limit so he could be totaled by a baselevel Bra. Goodie.) I mean I didn't expect or really want them to be DBSuper'd, and I don't think he's doing it intentionally. But if this was all Freeza and Cooler had going for themselves, barely managing anything against Kamiccolo (the mental thing he gave Freeza in the Goku/Freeza fight was cool, but it's practically useless in actual combat) maybe they should've stayed home and let Cinyu handle business.
An aside, but I don't see why they are really as weak as this series makes them out to be though; if he was able to give Cold such massive boosts, I don't see why he couldn't have figured out something similar with Cooler and Freeza, so they could atleast give a Kamiccolo a good fight solo. I mean, King Vegeta has SSJ2, presumably to ward off coming challenges either from across the universe or by Kakarotto. Why wouldn't Cooler and Freeza face similar problems in their timeline that forces them to push their limits some? Anyway, I hope they turn out to have some point before the end of the manga other than for the Ginyu plot. Think you're underestimating them too much. A lot of people on the other hand think they were boosted significantly in order to give Kamiccolo that much trouble. If there wasn't another Piccolo plot ex machina Kamiccolo would have been finished off by an amputated Cooler. If anything the lesson that this battle royale has given up is that if you're at the wrong moment, at the wrong place, you'll get beaten up no matter your PL. Also, I would not rule out Cinyu being one of the main stars of this rebellion. His majin 6th form must be almost reaching SSJ2 levels and if he gets a 7th due to Babidi's black wizardry (which I think he'll surely get), then he will be full on Majin Vegeta level.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 23, 2018 5:02:07 GMT
I got the opposite of Khan and felt like Freeza and Cooler were given the plot mandated help, by having Piccolo even needing to resort to a technique which exhausted him so much to kill two fighters he was leading around by the nose for most of the fight to justify U16 Piccolo even needing to show up to deal with Cooler. I didn't really feel like the brothers really got a massive power up at all and that Piccolo not killing them off sooner after Ginyu got blown away by West felt off.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 23:22:24 GMT
It's already been done, except this time Goku would just be a Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and Uub knows a few more techniques. Quite frankly, I agree that Frieza being immortal wouldn't benefit the story that much given the power difference between him and Uub save for the shock value of Frieza defeating Goku and being immortal, but I see no net gain from Goku vs Uub happening either, which is why I think I'd prefer having that shock value. I'm not saying Salagir and Asura can't make the fight between Goku and Uub look interesting or entertaining, it's just a fight I personally have no stake or interest in. FWIW, I don't think Frieza vs Uub would be an interesting fight either, since I would've only wanted that to happen just to have Goku lose for the twist. I think the magic given to Uub will be what give their battle more variety. Goku trained Uub so Goku should already have a good idea of what Uub is capable of and be able to anticipate most of his moves. I wonder if Zen Buu would even help Freeza knowing he already has immortality? Zen Buu's goal was to make the fight more entertaining but I don't know if he would necessarily want Freeza to win and advance. By the way, was Zen Buu even able to see what was happening? Did he secretly infiltrate their minds to watch the battle or did he only see them standing there like everyone else did? I guess if he's the one who gave Freeza this ability, he must've had a way to view what was going on. Yeah, the left side of the bracket is screwed. If the tournament does continue, I was thinking we might see Goku vs Uub and Vegeta vs Cell but XXI vs Zen Buu is...the final derailment of the tournament! These are the two strongest magic users so something crazy is going to happen and XXI might be forced to reveal his true form. I have a feeling we might not see Goku vs Vegeta since it's such a controversial battle so Salagir might follow that running gag/trend of them never getting their rematch or it getting interrupted.
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Post by Solus on Jul 24, 2018 13:14:07 GMT
I am not so sure about the uneven brackets though (I'm also not sure, whether this is the right thread for that discussion, but alas). Let's assume, the tournament continues where it stopped. While there is much discussion about who would win in the left bracket I'd like to focus on the right side. Risking to repeat what I wrote some years ago, I dare say that if Buu defeats XXI, the tournament is over. Buu was the strongest participant from the beginning and there is no way to defeat him by any conventional means. Even if there was someone with a powerlevel on par with him it would need so much strategy and skill, that it's almost impossible. You'd have to have a powerlevel way higher than him, which could maybe achieved by Vegetto SS3 but not really anyone else. That means no-one in the left bracket can defeat Buu --> Buu is not going to make it to the finals.
I also don't think, Buu will defeat XXI, since the whole purpose of XXI is to be the one to be able to defeat Buu and thus showing what level of threat he poses. Although I'm a Buu fanboy I recognize the purpose of this character and so I won't complain about his inevitable defeat by XXI. But let's assume, Buu would indeed defeat XXI, we would still need him to be kicked out before the final. That would need Gast to win against Bra, since Gast already proved to be capable of a spell that can at least imprison the demon. Maybe that was a fake on Buu's side, not really sure at the moment. But that would also be a magical battle and not one about powerlevels. And there we'd have a final between Gast who is high SSJ3 or mystic tier and Goku/Uub/Vegeta who are maximum mystic tier. In that case, at least powerwise it could be an almost even fight and worthy of a final. On the other hand, if Cell keeps the power he is currently showing, neither of the other three could beat him. He is just so far out of reach for them, that it would contradict the whole premise that Goku and Vegeta can't surpass Gohan (which is hinted at at many occassions in the manga thus far). I don't see Gast defeating a Cell that strong. But we can't let Cell win either, can we?
Now that leaves Bra to be Cell's final opponent. Would be fitting for Salagir's OC to win the tournament and I wouldn't mind that at all, if he finds a credible way for her to outsmart first Gast and then XXI. But if Buu can't do that who is many times stronger than her and by the pure essence of his nature more clever than her by the same amount, how would she? But that leads to another problem: If XXI can't be defeated by sheer power but only by a smart trick (wich both Buu and Gast/Bra won't have figured out in their matches), how would the winner of the left bracket figure it out? I'm not a fan of how Goku was depictet in any media, but at least it would be in character for him to "find a way". Maybe he says something along the line of "I saw him using this and that but he can only use every spell only once", bla bla bla. Maybe it's something that even a former opponent of XXI reveals or the community in joint effort. So Goku winning against XXI and being the hero would be a cool end. And I'd accept that, not because it wouldn't feel right if anyone else besides Goku beats the big bad, but simply because in this constellation there is not much else that could work.
And to come back to the original theme of this thread: I don't see how Freezer would have made any impact on the story, if he was immortal. Even if he could have fooled Goku, he wouldn't win against Uub nor against Vegeta/Cell.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 11, 2018 21:25:08 GMT
Freeza' telepathic technique was interesting, but the resolution is kind of weak. In the end all Goku really did to overcome it was shock Freeza out of it. There was nothing about Goku's mental strength or latent telepathic abilities that he had that really let him win. Perhaps if the fight had Goku use those underutilized abilities (he did still read Krillin's mind in the manga right?) that the battle could have been more exciting or even? Like Xavier from X-Men gets in a telepathic battle with another telepath it is used to great effect. Not sure if that would have made things more interesting to Axalon, but it could have made the battle more interesting, which was the whole point in U4 Buu giving Freeza a new technique in the first place. The idea of Freeza being too weak to physically beat Goku, so he uses his mind is still in effect, but in turn it allows for underutlized abilities in DB to take center stage and gives a sense that Freeza could win and defeat stronger opponents with his mental prowess that isn't necessarily tied to physical strength. Of course the Freeza needing permission or consent to use it kind of kills that idea, so it would have to be refined to be a technique that doesn't need consent to be used.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 19:16:17 GMT
I honestly feel this presentation of Frieza has been nothing short of disrespectful and borderline shameful. The most iconic villain in the entire Dragon Ball franchise and he exists as a butt monkey for others, something that just doesn't personally sit well with me.
They could have come up with any number of justifications for why Frieza would train and get stronger like the other villains (Dealing with future threats like Majin Buu or maybe have an alternate scenario where Frieza kills Goku just after the spirit bomb and realizing that he nearly died to these people and has to correct this weakness so it never comes this close again.) But none were taken and I think it was a mistake.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 26, 2019 19:48:03 GMT
I honestly feel this presentation of Frieza has been nothing short of disrespectful and borderline shameful. The most iconic villain in the entire Dragon Ball franchise and he exists as a butt monkey for others, something that just doesn't personally sit well with me. They could have come up with any number of justifications for why Frieza would train and get stronger like the other villains (Dealing with future threats like Majin Buu or maybe have an alternate scenario where Frieza kills Goku just after the spirit bomb and realizing that he nearly died to these people and has to correct this weakness so it never comes this close again.) But none were taken and I think it was a mistake. This idea of Freeza being the most iconic villain is mostly a DBSuper thing. Last depictions of Freeza in DBZ canon (and TOEI stuff like GT and movies) were equally if not more disrespectful.
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Post by godjacob on Oct 26, 2019 19:54:07 GMT
I honestly feel this presentation of Frieza has been nothing short of disrespectful and borderline shameful. The most iconic villain in the entire Dragon Ball franchise and he exists as a butt monkey for others, something that just doesn't personally sit well with me. They could have come up with any number of justifications for why Frieza would train and get stronger like the other villains (Dealing with future threats like Majin Buu or maybe have an alternate scenario where Frieza kills Goku just after the spirit bomb and realizing that he nearly died to these people and has to correct this weakness so it never comes this close again.) But none were taken and I think it was a mistake. This idea of Freeza being the most iconic villain is mostly a DBSuper thing. Last depictions of Freeza in DBZ canon (and TOEI stuff like GT and movies) were equally if not more disrespectful. I mean I was referring to fan perception thing. TFS to name one notable example had Frieza ranked as the top villain on their countdown. And really the Frieza arc in general is the one held to the highest regard. Individual opinion on that aside. But irregardless doesn't change my point that Cell and Buu (Among others) get fair representation and Frieza's stock is a butt monkey. Just in poor taste.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 26, 2019 19:56:50 GMT
This idea of Freeza being the most iconic villain is mostly a DBSuper thing. Last depictions of Freeza in DBZ canon (and TOEI stuff like GT and movies) were equally if not more disrespectful. I mean I was referring to fan perception thing. TFS to name one notable example had Frieza ranked as the top villain on their countdown. And really the Frieza arc in general is the one held to the highest regard. Individual opinion on that aside. But irregardless doesn't change my point that Cell and Buu (Among others) get fair representation and Frieza's stock is a butt monkey. Just in poor taste. Yeah but remember last time we saw Freeza he got sliced in pieces crying in fear and then one shotted by a new character. He got worfed the fuck out. And then we see him being just the buttmonkey in the Fusion Reborn movie, and also in GT (where Cell also got the short end of the stick). IMO the Cold demon Brothers performed really well in the Majin rebellion. Piccolo should have been able to smoke them together effortlessly 5th form or not.
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