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Post by squirz96 on Jun 14, 2019 8:20:25 GMT
I guess it depends on the type of fan. Some fans seem to be against the idea of a new generation because Toriyama isn't interested in them so they assume it's what's best for the story. It could be because the next generation in other stories are rarely as successful or developed as the original heroes so fans don't have high expectations for them in Dragonball. Boruto isn't as doing as well as Naruto. In some stories, Batman has retires and passes the torch to an adult Robin or new younger Batman but we still get new comics, movies, video games, etc about Bruce Wayne still Batman. Digimon has a new generation of heroes each season but Toei decided to make a sequel about the first generation. These are just some off the top of my head but there could be some successful examples. To add to this people are often stuck between wanting change and hating it. People will sometimes complain about a change to a character and want it undone almost immediately or being unwilling to see how it unfolds while at the same time want the status quo to change and not have everything be the same. This a big problem in American comics. If the identity changes it is met with resistance unless and can be undone just as easily unless there is a good run following it and the company sticks to their guns to keep the change. Most of the changes people accepted get grandfathered in when later fans join in when major changes to the status quo happened a long time ago, so to them that was always the norm. It doesn’t help DB isn’t really a story oriented series and people watch for characters beyond them being cool to watch fight. Most Gohan fans couldn’t give a shit about actual character growth he goes through and just want him to an utter bad ass who is Goku’s clone. Goten and Trunks are will forever be stuck in a cycle of being seen as shit character for adding nothing and having no development but are never given the chance to develop and feed back into being seen as bad characters. Dragon Ball can work is really the only hope to see any real change to that and even that isn’t guaranteed. DBM have barely done anything with Trunks and Goten despite the premise allowing for their characters to actually be used far better. Can't be more correct, I remember how some Gohan's fans thought that he would win tournament of power by defeating Jiren. Gohan Blanco while a complete meme is ridiculous idea and it's only good as a joke. Jiren wasn't even an antagonist and that Grand Priest is a villain was a terrible idea if you look from story point perspective. It would have been like getting Frieza level enemy instead of King Piccolo in the King Piccolo saga. All of them would end up dead and quickly, his weakest of henchman would be enough to kill everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like Gohan as a character, I dislike how Gohan fans assign some basic generic villain for Gohan to defeat. A villain that is a copy of previous ones. Gohan deserves special kind of villain. Here are some personality traits of such plausible villain: a) Cynical. He doesn't trust anyone. b) Closed heart. He doesn't like to speak about himself or his past. c) Cruel and arrogant.
d) Paranoid. Goes hand in had with a and b options. He always expects knife in his back. [This shouldn't be revealed early in the story.] e) Mocking Z fighters and especially Gohan.
What more I don't want that villain to be like most villains we had who already started as evil beings. In fact I want so that if you would reveal his youth and backstory his younger version before becoming who he is today would have been great friends of Gohan. He would view Gohan as a copy of his young and "foolish" self. Gohan after finding about his backstory would not be afraid of his strength, but would be afraid of possibility that he himself might become like him. Clash of a shadows that while at first presented as opposites they have more in common. Perhaps the best example is Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. Luke Skywalker is not hero cause he defeated Darth Vader. He is a hero because his actions and interactions with his father allowed his father's last moments to be as a human instead of "more machine then a man" villain. He is also a hero cause he did not became replacement for Darth Vader.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jun 14, 2019 13:39:54 GMT
To add to this people are often stuck between wanting change and hating it. People will sometimes complain about a change to a character and want it undone almost immediately or being unwilling to see how it unfolds while at the same time want the status quo to change and not have everything be the same. This a big problem in American comics. If the identity changes it is met with resistance unless and can be undone just as easily unless there is a good run following it and the company sticks to their guns to keep the change. Most of the changes people accepted get grandfathered in when later fans join in when major changes to the status quo happened a long time ago, so to them that was always the norm. It doesn’t help DB isn’t really a story oriented series and people watch for characters beyond them being cool to watch fight. Most Gohan fans couldn’t give a shit about actual character growth he goes through and just want him to an utter bad ass who is Goku’s clone. Goten and Trunks are will forever be stuck in a cycle of being seen as shit character for adding nothing and having no development but are never given the chance to develop and feed back into being seen as bad characters. Dragon Ball can work is really the only hope to see any real change to that and even that isn’t guaranteed. DBM have barely done anything with Trunks and Goten despite the premise allowing for their characters to actually be used far better. Can't be more correct, I remember how some Gohan's fans thought that he would win tournament of power by defeating Jiren. Gohan Blanco while a complete meme is ridiculous idea and it's only good as a joke. Jiren wasn't even an antagonist and that Grand Priest is a villain was a terrible idea if you look from story point perspective. It would have been like getting Frieza level enemy instead of King Piccolo in the King Piccolo saga. All of them would end up dead and quickly, his weakest of henchman would be enough to kill everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like Gohan as a character, I dislike how Gohan fans assign some basic generic villain for Gohan to defeat. A villain that is a copy of previous ones. Gohan deserves special kind of villain. Here are some personality traits of such plausible villain: a) Cynical. He doesn't trust anyone. b) Closed heart. He doesn't like to speak about himself or his past. c) Cruel and arrogant.
d) Paranoid. Goes hand in had with a and b options. He always expects knife in his back. [This shouldn't be revealed early in the story.] e) Mocking Z fighters and especially Gohan.
What more I don't want that villain to be like most villains we had who already started as evil beings. In fact I want so that if you would reveal his youth and backstory his younger version before becoming who he is today would have been great friends of Gohan. He would view Gohan as a copy of his young and "foolish" self. Gohan after finding about his backstory would not be afraid of his strength, but would be afraid of possibility that he himself might become like him. Clash of a shadows that while at first presented as opposites they have more in common. Perhaps the best example is Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. Luke Skywalker is not hero cause he defeated Darth Vader. He is a hero because his actions and interactions with his father allowed his father's last moments to be as a human instead of "more machine then a man" villain. He is also a hero cause he did not became replacement for Darth Vader.
So Jiren?
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Post by squirz96 on Jun 14, 2019 13:42:31 GMT
Can't be more correct, I remember how some Gohan's fans thought that he would win tournament of power by defeating Jiren. Gohan Blanco while a complete meme is ridiculous idea and it's only good as a joke. Jiren wasn't even an antagonist and that Grand Priest is a villain was a terrible idea if you look from story point perspective. It would have been like getting Frieza level enemy instead of King Piccolo in the King Piccolo saga. All of them would end up dead and quickly, his weakest of henchman would be enough to kill everyone. Don't get me wrong, I like Gohan as a character, I dislike how Gohan fans assign some basic generic villain for Gohan to defeat. A villain that is a copy of previous ones. Gohan deserves special kind of villain. Here are some personality traits of such plausible villain: a) Cynical. He doesn't trust anyone. b) Closed heart. He doesn't like to speak about himself or his past. c) Cruel and arrogant.
d) Paranoid. Goes hand in had with a and b options. He always expects knife in his back. [This shouldn't be revealed early in the story.] e) Mocking Z fighters and especially Gohan.
What more I don't want that villain to be like most villains we had who already started as evil beings. In fact I want so that if you would reveal his youth and backstory his younger version before becoming who he is today would have been great friends of Gohan. He would view Gohan as a copy of his young and "foolish" self. Gohan after finding about his backstory would not be afraid of his strength, but would be afraid of possibility that he himself might become like him. Clash of a shadows that while at first presented as opposites they have more in common. Perhaps the best example is Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. Luke Skywalker is not hero cause he defeated Darth Vader. He is a hero because his actions and interactions with his father allowed his father's last moments to be as a human instead of "more machine then a man" villain. He is also a hero cause he did not became replacement for Darth Vader.
So Jiren? Of course not. Jiren wasn't even a villian.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 16, 2019 16:19:56 GMT
Maybe Piccolo got tired of being a bench warmer for the Saiyans, and after he lost to the three Majin Frost Demons, he decided to get rid of his weak Namekian body by pretending to be killed by Cell, and switched himself, Ginyu style into a stronger Majinized body! Hey, at least Piccolo didn't lose to a bug, ToP Arc did Piccolo dirty there. ToP arc did a lot of damage to a lot of characters there. I kind of predicted that Gohan and Frieza vs Toppo would happen while Goku and Vegeta deal with Jiren. This was before we saw the actual final battle and I certainly wasn't expecting Toppo to have that transformation, especially since we never saw Beerus power up like that. Eh, I can give Toppo some leeway since we've never seen a mortal actually become a GoD, we've only seen fully realized GoDs. Because apparently he thinks too much while fighting to even comprehend the concept, or some nonsense. Chalk it up to pride or something, I dunno, that seems to be the trend with Vegeta. This is despite following the advice of Whis much more readily than Goku has, and training with Whis longer than Goku has, while Goku himself has pursued powerups that are entirely antithetical to the concept of UI but then just gets it because he needs a powerup to beat Jiren. Back in the day Toriyama made Goku lose tournaments because the main character winning was cliche and predictable. Sure wish he'd follow his own advice and keep trying to be unpredictable because Goku getting all the transformations and powerups is certainly the cliche and predictable route now.
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Post by Ultimate Perfection on Jun 16, 2019 18:29:35 GMT
Maybe Piccolo got tired of being a bench warmer for the Saiyans, and after he lost to the three Majin Frost Demons, he decided to get rid of his weak Namekian body by pretending to be killed by Cell, and switched himself, Ginyu style into a stronger Majinized body! Hey, at least Piccolo didn't lose to a bug, ToP Arc did Piccolo dirty there. Ooooo, that made me angry when I first watched that episode. He could sense and hear the invisible guy, but loses to the tiny one? Absurd. Piccolo can literally grow into a giant, so couldn't he plausibly shrink to become smaller as well? It would have been a cool twist to show how much he'd improved after he was embarrassingly defeated by Tagoma, embarrassingly killed by Frieza in his hoverchair, and being embarrassingly curbstomped by a counterfeit Frieza in the U6 Tournament. It's a shame too, since DBS Piccolo was stronger than pre-ToP SSJ2 Gohan, and even knocked out Ultimate Gohan when he used telekinesis to shoot a ki blast out from his severed hand. The DBM Piccolos are less powerful, but they got to show off their skills more effectively and did some really cool feats. U18 Piccolo fought three Frost Demons for a while before getting outclassed by Cold and saved by West Kaioshin, killed Frieza, maimed Cooler with a "Hellzone Makankosappo", saved by bean daddy Piccolo, and right hooked Burter in the face before getting sliced in half by Cell. U16 Piccolo finished off Cooler, became bean daddy for U18 Piccolo, one shotted Doore, decapitated #17, became bean daddy for U16 Videl and gave her a gi like Cell Saga Gohan's, kneed Recoome in the jaw, and almost got to be bean daddy for U16 Gohan and U18 Goten, Videl and Bra before being sliced in half by Cell.
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 16, 2019 18:48:42 GMT
Hey, at least Piccolo didn't lose to a bug, ToP Arc did Piccolo dirty there. ToP arc did a lot of damage to a lot of characters there. I kind of predicted that Gohan and Frieza vs Toppo would happen while Goku and Vegeta deal with Jiren. This was before we saw the actual final battle and I certainly wasn't expecting Toppo to have that transformation, especially since we never saw Beerus power up like that. Eh, I can give Toppo some leeway since we've never seen a mortal actually become a GoD, we've only seen fully realized GoDs. Because apparently he thinks too much while fighting to even comprehend the concept, or some nonsense. Chalk it up to pride or something, I dunno, that seems to be the trend with Vegeta. This is despite following the advice of Whis much more readily than Goku has, and training with Whis longer than Goku has, while Goku himself has pursued powerups that are entirely antithetical to the concept of UI but then just gets it because he needs a powerup to beat Jiren. Back in the day Toriyama made Goku lose tournaments because the main character winning was cliche and predictable. Sure wish he'd follow his own advice and keep trying to be unpredictable because Goku getting all the transformations and powerups is certainly the cliche and predictable route now. Yeah, that is true. ToP Arc definitely ruined a few characters (including Goku). I sort of agree with Toppo, we never seen a mortal go God of Destruction mode, still it was a waste, all that power and he couldn't beat a single opponent.
The ToP Arc didn't have a bad ending considering what went on (Goku and Frieza teaming up was interesting even though I dislike Frieza) but it could have been executed better definitely, could have been worse, imagine shit like Gohan Blanco. To be fair, Goku getting Ultra Instinct doesn't bother me that much, I just wonder why Vegeta hasn't obtained it neither, not saying Vegeta should have been the strongest but still. Doesn't bother me nearly as much as Kale and Cauifla being as powerful as they are even though they aren't remotely experienced fighters, and just learned how to go SSJ, they shouldn't even have SSJ2. Android 17 has the most BS powerup in all of Dragon Ball though, even outdid Frieza and the female Saiyans, he was powered up specifically that way so he can outlast everyone and win the ToP, because I don't get how Toppo didn't instantly eliminate him, which is weird because he didn't have to be that powerful nor did he have to be the winner..
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 16, 2019 19:06:45 GMT
Hey, at least Piccolo didn't lose to a bug, ToP Arc did Piccolo dirty there. Ooooo, that made me angry when I first watched that episode. He could sense and hear the invisible guy, but loses to the tiny one? Absurd. Piccolo can literally grow into a giant, so couldn't he plausibly shrink to become smaller as well? It would have been a cool twist to show how much he'd improved after he was embarrassingly defeated by Tagoma, embarrassingly killed by Frieza in his hoverchair, and being embarrassingly curbstomped by a counterfeit Frieza in the U6 Tournament. It's a shame too, since DBS Piccolo was stronger than pre-ToP SSJ2 Gohan, and even knocked out Ultimate Gohan when he used telekinesis to shoot a ki blast out from his severed hand. The DBM Piccolos are less powerful, but they got to show off their skills more effectively and did some really cool feats. U18 Piccolo fought three Frost Demons for a while before getting outclassed by Cold and saved by West Kaioshin, killed Frieza, maimed Cooler with a "Hellzone Makankosappo", saved by bean daddy Piccolo, and right hooked Burter in the face before getting sliced in half by Cell. U16 Piccolo finished off Cooler, became bean daddy for U18 Piccolo, one shotted Doore, decapitated #17, became bean daddy for U16 Videl and gave her a gi like Cell Saga Gohan's, kneed Recoome in the jaw, and almost got to be bean daddy for U16 Gohan and U18 Goten, Videl and Bra before being sliced in half by Cell. Yeah, I know what you mean being a Piccolo fan, I was expecting him to lose to at least someone powerful, Toppo could have used that victory since he beat nobody, wouldn't even have been mad if he lost to Dyspo. But instead he lost to a bug that he should have heard coming or sensed coming enough to dodge it.
I don't recall Piccolo getting curbstomped by Frost, in the anime Frost had trouble catching Piccolo while he was charging up one big attack (which was fucking stupid and out of character for Piccolo anyways) and Piccolo would have nailed Frost if he hadn't been drugged by Frost and would have won by him being DQ'd. In the manga, Piccolo did put up an actual fight if I recall, even if he was less powerful.
I think DBS doesn't have a real sense of direction with where they want to go and just make things up as they go. I mean look at the Broly movie and the Dragon Ball Minus part of it that has little to do with early Dragon Ball and early Dragon Ball Z even though it was suppose to. Weird too since we had something after Battle of Gods that we were going to see something new but then they brought back Frieza and then Broly who wasn't canon before.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Jun 17, 2019 0:25:59 GMT
ToP arc did a lot of damage to a lot of characters there. Eh, I can give Toppo some leeway since we've never seen a mortal actually become a GoD, we've only seen fully realized GoDs. Because apparently he thinks too much while fighting to even comprehend the concept, or some nonsense. Chalk it up to pride or something, I dunno, that seems to be the trend with Vegeta. This is despite following the advice of Whis much more readily than Goku has, and training with Whis longer than Goku has, while Goku himself has pursued powerups that are entirely antithetical to the concept of UI but then just gets it because he needs a powerup to beat Jiren. Back in the day Toriyama made Goku lose tournaments because the main character winning was cliche and predictable. Sure wish he'd follow his own advice and keep trying to be unpredictable because Goku getting all the transformations and powerups is certainly the cliche and predictable route now. Yeah, that is true. ToP Arc definitely ruined a few characters (including Goku). I sort of agree with Toppo, we never seen a mortal go God of Destruction mode, still it was a waste, all that power and he couldn't beat a single opponent.
The ToP Arc didn't have a bad ending considering what went on (Goku and Frieza teaming up was interesting even though I dislike Frieza) but it could have been executed better definitely, could have been worse, imagine shit like Gohan Blanco. To be fair, Goku getting Ultra Instinct doesn't bother me that much, I just wonder why Vegeta hasn't obtained it neither, not saying Vegeta should have been the strongest but still. Doesn't bother me nearly as much as Kale and Cauifla being as powerful as they are even though they aren't remotely experienced fighters, and just learned how to go SSJ, they shouldn't even have SSJ2. Android 17 has the most BS powerup in all of Dragon Ball though, even outdid Frieza and the female Saiyans, he was powered up specifically that way so he can outlast everyone and win the ToP, because I don't get how Toppo didn't instantly eliminate him, which is weird because he didn't have to be that powerful nor did he have to be the winner..
Most BS powerup or actually Toriyama following through with something he had established back in the Android/Cell Saga (possibly entirely by accident unless he'd decided it a good idea to review his earlier work in order to prevent more plot holes by the time he was overseeing the ToP's writing). Remember the Androids are supposed to have an Infinite Energy Engine powering them, so it's actually possible that in the 13 year time span since the Cell Games that Cyborg 17 had accumulated enough energy to be as powerful as he was shown to be when Goku asked him to join the U7 ToP Team. You may say that Future C17 & C18 weren't shown to be anywhere near that powerful otherwise they would've easily destroyed Future Trunks, but I would say to that that they'd been using their energy over the years to terrorize humanity and battle against Future Gohan and Future Trunks, so they weren't accumulating nearly as much as C17 & C18 in the main timeline would have accumulated by the time of the ToP; actually it might even explain why they were weaker than their past main timeline counterparts. How you may wonder it explains that? I'll explain it: terrorizing the future and fighting against Future Gohan and then Future Trunks might've required them to expend more energy than they'd been gaining over time via the Infinite Energy Engines. Further using this reasoning that might explain how Future Trunks somehow defeated C17 & C18 in Cell's Timeline since that Future Trunks clearly hadn't trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Maybe they were at the point that given a little more time fighting them that he'd surpass their energy reserves and be strong enough to defeat them especially if they'd given him the chance to fight them one on one, which the Future Trunks special seems to establish they'd do sometimes.
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 17, 2019 0:47:30 GMT
Yeah, that is true. ToP Arc definitely ruined a few characters (including Goku). I sort of agree with Toppo, we never seen a mortal go God of Destruction mode, still it was a waste, all that power and he couldn't beat a single opponent.
The ToP Arc didn't have a bad ending considering what went on (Goku and Frieza teaming up was interesting even though I dislike Frieza) but it could have been executed better definitely, could have been worse, imagine shit like Gohan Blanco. To be fair, Goku getting Ultra Instinct doesn't bother me that much, I just wonder why Vegeta hasn't obtained it neither, not saying Vegeta should have been the strongest but still. Doesn't bother me nearly as much as Kale and Cauifla being as powerful as they are even though they aren't remotely experienced fighters, and just learned how to go SSJ, they shouldn't even have SSJ2. Android 17 has the most BS powerup in all of Dragon Ball though, even outdid Frieza and the female Saiyans, he was powered up specifically that way so he can outlast everyone and win the ToP, because I don't get how Toppo didn't instantly eliminate him, which is weird because he didn't have to be that powerful nor did he have to be the winner..
Most BS powerup or actually Toriyama following through with something he had established back in the Android/Cell Saga (possibly entirely by accident unless he'd decided it a good idea to review his earlier work in order to prevent more plot holes by the time he was overseeing the ToP's writing). Remember the Androids are supposed to have an Infinite Energy Engine powering them, so it's actually possible that in the 13 year time span since the Cell Games that Cyborg 17 had accumulated enough energy to be as powerful as he was shown to be when Goku asked him to join the U7 ToP Team. You may say that Future C17 & C18 weren't shown to be anywhere near that powerful otherwise they would've easily destroyed Future Trunks, but I would say to that that they'd been using their energy over the years to terrorize humanity and battle against Future Gohan and Future Trunks, so they weren't accumulating nearly as much as C17 & C18 in the main timeline would have accumulated by the time of the ToP; actually it might even explain why they were weaker than their past main timeline counterparts. How you may wonder it explains that? I'll explain it: terrorizing the future and fighting against Future Gohan and then Future Trunks might've required them to expend more energy than they'd been gaining over time via the Infinite Energy Engines. Further using this reasoning that might explain how Future Trunks somehow defeated C17 & C18 in Cell's Timeline since that Future Trunks clearly hadn't trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Maybe they were at the point that given a little more time fighting them that he'd surpass their energy reserves and be strong enough to defeat them especially if they'd given him the chance to fight them one on one, which the Future Trunks special seems to establish they'd do sometimes.
I don't think that's the case. Keep in mind that he went from Kamiccolo (Cell Saga Piccolo before HTC) level to SSJB level in 12 Years (I think it's a 12 Year gap), it would have to have been at an exponential rate. Meaning that Android 17 should have already been 2nd Form Cell's level by the time he fought Kamiccolo, which he clearly wasn't. His rate of growth would have been easily notable during the Cell Saga between when he was free'd and when he got absorbed by Cell and I don't think ASSJ Vegeta would have beaten Cell so easily if Android 17 grew that much stronger in such a short time and Cell of course adds his power to his own.
I actually like this theory as it's actually plausible way to explain Android 17's seemingly absurd increase in power. Might explain why the Spirit Bomb defeated Kid Buu lol. But if he went from raising his power level by THAT much in 12 years then why wasn't he more powerful than Piccolo when they fought? Surely the Androids themselves would have stated during the Cell Saga that they have gotten more powerful than they use to be or something? Maybe it is just exponential like that but does that mean that he could surpass Beerus and Jiren in one more year or something and then Broly and Gogeta the next? Better question though is why didn't Android 18 get the same power up?
Infinite energy did not mean he could generate an infinite amount of power anyways and it was possible to injure him. He couldn't keep up with Cell in part because his body was beaten (and Cell was more powerful) even though he has that supposed infinite energy. Besides, if he could bring out more power than he did against Piccolo back in Z he would have done it against Cell? And we know Android 17 didn't train himself to improve the amount of power his body could handle (cause if he could bring out infinite power, he would have infinite power and just wiped the floor with Jiren). I don't think Toriyama was following through the Cell/Android Saga in this case, because Cell still beat Android 17 despite this "infinite energy" advantage, even Piccolo injured him slightly. The power up just seems like a convenient way to get Android 17 to win the Tournament of Power, assuming he decided how the whole ToP Arc would play out. Maybe he didn't plan that far ahead and had a different reason, I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 3:14:23 GMT
Kor SaiyajinkamiIt's an interesting theory but I think there are a few issues with it: 1. I'm pretty "infinite energy" refers to their stamina as in they never get tired. That's been confirmed but nothing ever implied that their power rises over time on its own. It's worth mentioning that they went out of their way to state Broly's power rises as he fights. If the cyborgs could grow stronger without training, I think that would've been mentioned. 2. #18 hasn't done much of anything since the Cell saga but nothing implied she got any stronger. If #17 was the only one to get this power-up even though they both have the same energy reactor, it would have to mean he did something that she didn't during those years. All we know is that he had a full time job and beat up poachers while she apparently sat around doing nothing. 3. Killing weak humans should barely use up any of their energy. Saiyans could wipe out entire planets in a short time so the fact that Earth still had some humans left almost 20 years after the cyborgs were awakened means they weren't trying very hard. If their power could reach SSJB tier in 13 years, their power would likely be rising faster than they can expend it. In my opinion, #17's power-up was just meant to be a gag and another example of Toriyama poking fun of GT. It's like how he had the Pilaf gang randomly appear in BoG after decades of being out of the picture like in GT but instead had them accidentally wish themselves to be turned into kids. In GT, #17 was brought back out of nowhere and they had a crazy explanation for his power-up with how he had to fuse with his evil counterpart built in hell. Toriyama may have decided to bring him back and "subvert expectations by giving the simplest and most ridiculous reasoning for how he got stronger. If we look at it that way, I guess it could be seen as more of a meta joke or something and therefore not intended to have an in-universe explanation. I mean we could try but I don't think there's a solid explanation that doesn't require a lot of additional headcanon.
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 17, 2019 4:58:38 GMT
Kor Saiyajinkami It's an interesting theory but I think there are a few issues with it: 1. I'm pretty "infinite energy" refers to their stamina as in they never get tired. That's been confirmed but nothing ever implied that their power rises over time on its own. It's worth mentioning that they went out of their way to state Broly's power rises as he fights. If the cyborgs could grow stronger without training, I think that would've been mentioned. 2. #18 hasn't done much of anything since the Cell saga but nothing implied she got any stronger. If #17 was the only one to get this power-up even though they both have the same energy reactor, it would have to mean he did something that she didn't during those years. All we know is that he had a full time job and beat up poachers while she apparently sat around doing nothing. 3. Killing weak humans should barely use up any of their energy. Saiyans could wipe out entire planets in a short time so the fact that Earth still had some humans left almost 20 years after the cyborgs were awakened means they weren't trying very hard. If their power could reach SSJB tier in 13 years, their power would likely be rising faster than they can expend it. In my opinion, #17's power-up was just meant to be a gag and another example of Toriyama poking fun of GT. It's like how he had the Pilaf gang randomly appear in BoG after decades of being out of the picture like in GT but instead had them accidentally wish themselves to be turned into kids. In GT, #17 was brought back out of nowhere and they had a crazy explanation for his power-up with how he had to fuse with his evil counterpart built in hell. Toriyama may have decided to bring him back and "subvert expectations by giving the simplest and most ridiculous reasoning for how he got stronger. If we look at it that way, I guess it could be seen as more of a meta joke or something and therefore not intended to have an in-universe explanation. I mean we could try but I don't think there's a solid explanation that doesn't require a lot of additional headcanon. If that was a jab at DBGT then DBS gave Android 17 an even more absurd powerup than GT did, gotta clap my hands for that if that was the case at least the GT reference with Pilaf reference was somewhat amusing. At least in GT it took two Android 17s merging together to trounce everyone else (because it's Goku Time, step aside everyone) become Super Android 17 to match SSJ4 Goku and beat him by absorbing his attacks and he lost in a strange BS way. Even the newer Android 17 couldn't match Vegeta in his base form I don't think and I doubt the other one could neither. This was back when there was no "Base form is weaker than Frieza" crap of course, GT didn't give a fuck about that.
Dear god if I have to talk about the Super 17 Arc again I might just slit my throat, I mean, it's comparable to the worst of DBS.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Jun 17, 2019 6:22:21 GMT
drewsaga @skar - Re: Infinite Energy Reactor DiscussionI think it's more like they recover they generate a set amount of energy every day, which is probably the same amount of energy they had when they were first filled up with Energon (it's not sensible Ki, so let's call it that) by Dr. Gero. In the case of the Future Timeline C17 & C18, they were using up enough energy killing humans and fighting Gohan then Trunks (mostly from the latter as obviously killing humans and destroying cities doesn't expend much energy), which resulted in them being weaker than their main timeline counterparts all the way in the past. They basically used more energy than they generated each day fighting Gohan and Trunks, so they were weaker than their main timeline counterparts by the time Trunks fought them last before the time that he'd finally defeat them after training in the HTC in the past. It's also possible that in addition to this that main timeline C17 & C18 were filled with more Energon by the good doctor than their future counterparts due to Trunks and Cell interfering with the timeline. So maybe main timeline C17 & C18 had more base power to generate more energy than their future counterparts.
As for why C18 doesn't have the same power as C17, what's to say that she doesn't? She only got eliminated in an effort to save C17 from ringing out, so we never saw her run out of power and she made it pretty damn far in the ToP, so I think there is nothing that says she doesn't have a comparable amount of power to what her brother has.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 14:44:01 GMT
Kor SaiyajinkamiOk there's a lot of headcanon here. If we only look at what's been directly stated, nothing implies their power rises on its own and some information contradicts it. I couldn't link to a manga page for some reason but this is Kanzenshuu's translation in their manga guide: Chapter 349 “Frankly speaking, this is a relief. For the majority of your functions to work with the eternal energy reactor and tremendous power, there wasn’t much control before. Previously, you didn’t listen to any of my commands. Now, you’ll get to work right away. Soon, Son Goku’s little friends will be here, and you must take them all out, leave no one standing. Alright?”
Chapter 368 Piccolo is panting, and No. 17 says their power is equal, but their difference in stamina is starting to show. His energy will never drop.Both Gero and #17 differentiate between power and energy being fueled by their reactor which should mean "infinite energy" only refers to stamina. All I could find about their power increasing was Toriyama mentioning they could train since they're part human in a recent interview but nothing about their reactor increasing their power on it's own. The reason why we know #18 isn't as powerful as #17 is because nothing indicated she improved since the Cell saga. Buu saga: Her only major battle was against Goten and Trunks as Mighty Mask. SSJ Trunks made sure not to use his full power when he blasted her implying she's weaker than the SSJ kids. BoG: She was defeated by Beerus quicker than the half Saiyans and Mr. Buu. According to this theory, she should be nearly SSJB tier at this point since BoG is only two years before the ToP. U6: Gohan, Buu, and Piccolo are brought up when looking for participants suggesting they're the strongest Z fighters after Goku and Vegeta. Only one year before the ToP. Everything seems to indicate that only #17 recieved this power-up and most likely through occasional training.
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Post by Ultimate Perfection on Jun 17, 2019 17:13:41 GMT
drewsaga @skar - Re: Infinite Energy Reactor DiscussionI think it's more like they recover they generate a set amount of energy every day, which is probably the same amount of energy they had when they were first filled up with Energon (it's not sensible Ki, so let's call it that) by Dr. Gero. In the case of the Future Timeline C17 & C18, they were using up enough energy killing humans and fighting Gohan then Trunks (mostly from the latter as obviously killing humans and destroying cities doesn't expend much energy), which resulted in them being weaker than their main timeline counterparts all the way in the past. They basically used more energy than they generated each day fighting Gohan and Trunks, so they were weaker than their main timeline counterparts by the time Trunks fought them last before the time that he'd finally defeat them after training in the HTC in the past. It's also possible that in addition to this that main timeline C17 & C18 were filled with more Energon by the good doctor than their future counterparts due to Trunks and Cell interfering with the timeline. So maybe main timeline C17 & C18 had more base power to generate more energy than their future counterparts.
As for why C18 doesn't have the same power as C17, what's to say that she doesn't? She only got eliminated in an effort to save C17 from ringing out, so we never saw her run out of power and she made it pretty damn far in the ToP, so I think there is nothing that says she doesn't have a comparable amount of power to what her brother has.
That is a cool concept, but I don't think the cyborgs' bodies can store energy that way; or at least nothing established in canon has said so thus far. The energy produced by the cyborgs is artificial. We do not know yet if the cyborgs are able to manipulate their artificial energy as freely as their own natural ki, but they should be able to charge and amplify their energy attacks (like the Kamehameha or Makankosappo) if that were the case. To my knowledge, we haven't seen that quite yet. If we are looking at DBM's continuity, then this statement actually contradicts this concept because the cyborgs from Future Trunks' timeline actually became weaker due to their infinite energy reactors degrading over time. Page 281 is the most obvious footnote to this, when U9 Yamcha says #18's body became weaker in contrast to Yamcha's artificial body being maintained by his wife, Bulma. Yamcha also says that "although our bodies are the same, our strength is worlds apart". It's known that training with cyborg artificial energy will greatly help supplement and buff up a fighter's natural organic ki as well. That's probably why Yamcha was able to keep up with Tien and Krillin in his universe, who both know the Kaioken. If we are talking about DBS, then that is a whole other conundrum. Nothing has been said about how #17 got so strong, other than he beat up poachers for a few years. But judging on how the ToP Arc was handled in both the anime and manga, I get the feeling that Toei, Toriyama and Toyotaro pulled their "writing by the seat of their pants" card again, and threw #17 back into the show as fan service. The last time we saw #17 in canon was in a cameo during the Kid Buu Arc when he points his rifle at two hunters to give their energy to Goku's Spirit Bomb. #17 is in the top 10 most popular Dragon Ball characters in Japan, so I have strong reasoning to suspect that this was the case in order to bring more views. Toei/Toriyama/Toyotaro probably just went along with it and made some silly excuse in making #17 stronger just to make him relevant again, and probably didn't care about it beyond that. They just wanted it to be done. A similar scenario happened earlier with Frieza for the RoF movie. Bringing back the most popular DBZ villain, but he's weaker than initial SSJ1-tier? That's okay! just make a small retcon, in that he is a super prodigy and never had to train in his life, then make him beat up his minions for 4 months to reach SSJB level!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 19:03:33 GMT
The androids always suffered from making no sense power scale wise, a random earth scientist is somehow able to make cyborgs from regular, untrained humans, that are above almost everything in the known universe that’s not a god, devil, or an eldrich bubblegum monster, meanwhile a universe spanning galactic empire couldn’t give their strongest warrior a noticeable upgrade, when they turn him into a cyborg.Frankly after the shit they did with Frieza, having 17 train for twelve years to be Blue level is actually quite modest
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jun 17, 2019 20:27:27 GMT
I think it's already being time to split this thread off, or at the very least soon will be. The androids always suffered from making no sense power scale wise, a random earth scientist is somehow able to make cyborgs from regular, untrained humans, that are above almost everything in the known universe that’s not a god, devil, or an eldrich bubblegum monster, meanwhile a universe spanning galactic empire couldn’t give their strongest warrior a noticeable upgrade, when they turn him into a cyborg.Frankly after the shit they did with Frieza, having 17 train for twelve years to be Blue level is actually quite modest Another example is Buu in Moro saga after "awakening" the Grand Supreme Kai in him. Axalon had some issues with it because no training is involved, but honestly speaking I found it a little better than most of the other examples because there's at least some old lore from the Buu saga involved. It was always implied Fat Buu could not use the full power of the Kais he absorbed due to some weird shit done by GSK, back in Buu saga flashbacks. It makes sense he unleashes the full power once this "blockade" is removed. Of course, it was never implied (or suggested) and a gross exaggeration that such thing could turn him into SSJBLue+ levels. Logically an unlocked fat Buu should at best be as strong as Super Buu, and at the very worst the combination of South Kai + GSK, since Kid Buu was destroyed and is now Uub. But DBS is no stranger to exaggeration, and this exaggeration at least has some basis in the old lore. It was never implied Androids could get stronger, specially not by beating poachers (though never denied either) nor that Freeza could advance his power that much, especially not by beating a sub-Ginyu dude. Buu was always implied to have a blockade due to Kai shit. Part 5 will be last part. Can't believe I'm saying this but I hope Bra win the fight for Babidi. Not necessarily. With the info we have now, it only means the final battle starts in this chapter. Wednesday we will get the answer if this is the last part or not. If the composite wallpaper appears to be completed (no cut-off characters, etc) it will mean this truly is the last chapter of the saga. If there are cut-off characters then this clearly isn't, in spite of the obvious title.
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Post by Bubbles on Jun 17, 2019 20:36:14 GMT
Part 5 will be last part. Can't believe I'm saying this but I hope Bra win the fight for Babidi. Last Budokai Royale chapter, anyway. That doesn't necessarily mean the Majin arc will be completely over.
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Post by snowflake on Jun 17, 2019 23:05:27 GMT
All that extra art and no pic of Grandpa Gohan copping a feel.
You know it happened in U9.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Jun 18, 2019 6:47:08 GMT
The androids always suffered from making no sense power scale wise, a random earth scientist is somehow able to make cyborgs from regular, untrained humans, that are above almost everything in the known universe that’s not a god, devil, or an eldrich bubblegum monster, meanwhile a universe spanning galactic empire couldn’t give their strongest warrior a noticeable upgrade, when they turn him into a cyborg.Frankly after the shit they did with Frieza, having 17 train for twelve years to be Blue level is actually quite modest Bulma was able to make a time-travelling machine. Dr. Gero's androids are nothing more than such kind of expertise applied to combat. DBZ tries to get away with it by having Dr. Gero study the Z-Warriors, which culminated in the development of Cell, but it feels a little weird to have human-based androids surpassing a Super Saiyan. Only technology would explain... and humans did have very advanced technology at their disposal.
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 18, 2019 23:53:27 GMT
The androids always suffered from making no sense power scale wise, a random earth scientist is somehow able to make cyborgs from regular, untrained humans, that are above almost everything in the known universe that’s not a god, devil, or an eldrich bubblegum monster, meanwhile a universe spanning galactic empire couldn’t give their strongest warrior a noticeable upgrade, when they turn him into a cyborg.Frankly after the shit they did with Frieza, having 17 train for twelve years to be Blue level is actually quite modest I somewhat agree, but still, there are almost every element in the universe, is on Earth, a mad scientist like Gero figuring out how to get Android 17 to SSJ level isn't all that ridiculous in the grand scheme of things. I admit it's certainly a stretch. but it isn't worse than Bulma inventing a freaking TIME MACHINE.
But it's still not nearly as ridiculous as Android 17 reaching SSJB levels, which was considered in the realm of gods (not as powerful as a God of Destruction but it's high up there), especially if his powerup to being above 100% Frieza and SSJ Goku is ridiculous because that just adds on top of it. I mean a human turned to an Android reaching SSJ levels sounds absurd but that's multiplied immensely when he does nothing for 12 Years and is SSJB level, for no apparent reason, there wasn't even an explanation for it. I don't see how it's modest because he actually hasn't actively trained, he didn't train anymore than Gohan did that's for sure, he spent 12 years doing nothing but poaching. He literally only got the power boost to keep him relevant and probably to make sure he wins the ToP because what a coincidence, he is the winner of the ToP in both the manga and anime, not different from Frieza really except he actually DID train for 4 months.
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