A17 power and assorted ToP stuff

I always thought it was pretty crazy that Gero could create androids stronger than Freeza especially since his records of the Z fighters only go up to the Saiyan saga. It was only his spybots used to create Cell that recorded anything after that.

The way I see is that he's the DBZ equivalent of Lex Luthor who could come up with technology to challenge some of the stronger Justice League members and not your average run-of-the-mill scientist. If some characters could be prodigies and power-up quickly, the same could be applied to a scientist and that they're a prodigy when it comes to intelligence. He had a fully equipped laboratory and decades to innovate a new power source for them which is more time and effort than many of the much bigger power-ups we've seen.

It seems that his technology hit a limit which might be why he had his computer start working on Cell who was bioengineered in case his androids/cyborgs failed. That's one reason I don't like #17's power-up because it goes against the idea that Cell was Gero's ultimate breakthrough. U9 Yamcha is much stronger than regular #17 since he was one of the most powerful humans but I imagine not many would be ok with him being SSJ2 tier let alone stronger than Vegetto.

I kinda give it a pass if it's meant to be a gag. In the DBS manga, Goku pokes fun of it by saying "#17 hasn't done much of anything and he's somehow just about as strong as us". I don't like looking for examples of previous asspulls to excuse whale-sized asspulls because that implies the author is incapable doing better. There have been some thoughtout power-ups in DBS like the Gods of Destruction, the deities above them being the strongest and likely oldest beings in the multiverse, Hit being a +1000 year old assassin from a different universe, Toppo as a GoD candidate, and the other Pride Troopers training all their lives to protect their universe, etc so the wonkier power-ups like with Freeza and #17 are probably purposely meant to be ridiculous.

To be honest, calling it a gag or "subversion of expectations" is a nice way of saying it's ridiculous or stupid but maybe he intended it. It might not be just a coincidence that some of the craziest power-ups in DBS went to returning characters who also appeared in GT.

In GT, #17 returned out of nowhere and Toei had to come up with convulated power-up while Toriyama had him barely do anything to get even stronger. In GT and filler, Freeza was usually fodder and lost to kid Goku's lowest form after possibly training in hell for decades. In DBS, Toriyama referenced the exact scene of Gohan punching Freeza from Fusion Reborn and made him more powerful than Goku's strongest form. Maybe it was a gag in the sense that he trolled the fanbase after their experience with these returning characters in other DB media.

This is probably unintentional but another sign that's Freeza's power-up isn't meant to make sense (compared to what's been established) is DBS Broly. He's consistent with other untrained prodigies in the series like Gohan and Uub who could access some of their potential when upset or angry. I mean it's insane that he got that powerful in an about an hour but I guess he's meant to be the legendary prodigy among prodigies. Broly had little to no training in his life and his power rose on its own so he was more of a brawler with no abilities. Meanwhile, Freeza apparently never trained before yet knew a bunch of unique techniques and enough control that he can access his full power and transform at will. I'm not sure how that works unless he only trained to develop new techniques but never exerted himself to get stronger. I didn't think Freeza needed to push himself that hard since he as born so powerful but I assumed he had to undergo some training in his life.

@skar do you think you could move this Energy Reactor Discussion to a new thread since I imagine this one will be locked shortly and also it is rather off topic for Ch69 anyways.

Ultimate Perfection of course we are talking about DBS seeing as last I checked the Tournament of Power only happens in DBS and is in no way canon to DBM. As a result we can't count DBM canon to the current discussion about the Infinite Energy Reactors.

Skar yeah I guess it is headcanon, but as a fan I'd rather have a credible headcanon explanation over the "DBS writers are pulling shit outta their asses" explanation. I prefer to use my intellect paired with my knowledge of the series to come up with potential credible In-Universe Explanations for things instead of resorting to Out-Universe "DBS Writers Can't Write for Shit" Types of Explanations. Sure I'm filling in gaps with things that the canon hasn't explicitly stated, but it's also stuff that hasn't been debunked by canon material either.

Your example from 349, I don't see how it contributes to proving me wrong. Dr. Gero is basically saying that before now he couldn't manage to get them under control because of their immense power, but now he thinks he's managed to get more control over them through tinkering with them while they were asleep.

Your example from 368, just proves to me that unlike Piccolo whose stamina runs out as he uses his energy, that isn't the case with C17 because he doesn't run out of energy in the same way. In all honesty the way I interpret that after having read that chapter up until then is that he's actually gaining at least an equal amount of energy as he's losing and therefore his energy is "infinite" and therefore always has the energy to maintain his stamina levels at the same as they were at the beginning of the fight. So to me that actually supports my theory instead of going against it.

Heh I didn't even think it goes that far.

I think just doing the physical activity of catching poachers was enough exercise for him, as opposed to doing nothing, to simply get stronger. Much like Frieza beating up someone on Zarbon's level for 4 months and getting stronger than SSB Goku.

I give Toyotaro credit for being the only trying to offer an explanation but I don't think it really makes sense. One Cell Jr was vastly stronger than #17 in the Cell saga so how did #17 survive long enough to overpower several of them? Imagine if several Cell Jrs attacked Cell Games Vegeta at once. He would've been dead long before he could tame them. A more accurate example might be Nappa trying to fight the Ginyu Force at once. How were they resurrected after they only the good people were wished back during the Buu saga? I guess they could've reformed before then or Porunga just considered them wild animals so not too big of a deal.

Even if he did survive long enough to tame them, that wouldn't explain how he reached SSJB tier. SSJ2 Gohan could kill all the Cell Jrs so #17 would still have a long way to go. Were the Cell Jrs growing stronger with him? Going by RoF logic, the Cell Jrs should have more potential than Freeza since they were born stronger so they should also be SSJB tier in a few months. I have so many questions!

Ah, I did forget the manga had the Cell Jrs come back. 

Still, the fact that they're alive and kicking at all and no one knew about them seems...odd. If Frieza could be detected from beyond orbit you'd think Gohan or Piccolo or Dende or SOMEONE would've picked up on those Cell Jrs coming back. Then again this is the same world that couldn't detect Goten or Trunks being SS1 so I don't even know anymore. Plus you'd think they would've regenerated before the Z Fighters left after beating Cell except they...didn't?

Especially if they start sensing multiple Gokus, since Goku is, well, dead.