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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2019 4:26:46 GMT
Wasn't this "feeling many warriors thingy" only specific to Imperfect Cell? When he grew fishlips this issue was never mentioned again, and much less so when he attained the Perfect Form. @skar Axalon . Perhaps they came to realize that "feeling everyone at once" was Cell and attributed that unique signature to him since now they weren't confused by it anymore. That's what I was thinking. When Imperfect Cell escaped from Piccolo, he masked his ki which means they probably figured how to sense and differentiate his ki signature from the other Z fighters at that point. I'm not sure if absorbing #17 and #18 would change his signature since his "base" was still the same and whatever components he gained from the cyborgs can't be sensed.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Jun 24, 2019 0:08:38 GMT
I also don't think fiction was meant to be picked apart like we do with it nowadays, but it happens and well I like to think that the authors of various series leave a lot of things open to fan interpretation and expansion via headcanon for the things they don't think necessary to explain in extensive detail. Shouldn't this go both ways? You're saying fiction shouldn't be picked apart but share an overcomplicated theory that requires you to pick it apart in order to reach that interpretation. I'm going with the simpliest approach that doesn't require more than what we're presented with in the story which is that #17 just trained on his own. Since he has infinite stamina, maybe he did trillions of pushups for a few years straight. Who knows but Toriyama didn't think it was necessary to explain so I'm fine with leaving it at that. I'm Saiyan it shouldn't be picked apart to the extent we do it, but it happens anyways and I think authors knew it would happen so at least some of them might even purposely leave things unexplained for us to pick apart to our hearts content until if/when they change their minds and decide to provide their own canonical explanation. As for my theory being overcomplicated and requires me to pick apart what Toriyama provided, it isn't even remotely complicated at all and is easily discerned from the information that Toriyama provided. I came to that conclusion in a couple of seconds after I thought about how C17 had an infinite energy reactor and that that might be the explanation for his SSJB levels of power. Then after reaching that conclusion it took me less than a minute to think about how Future C17 & C18 having fought Future Gohan and Future Trunks might've resulted in them using more energy than they accumulated, which is why they are weaker than their main timeline counterparts in the past instead of far stronger than them. Now after reading Andres 's theory and the discussion since he posted it, I think that maybe the Infinite Energy Reactor is only part of the explanation. A combination of the Infinite Energy Reactor theory and the traming (training x taming) with the Cell Jrs and fighting poachers could very well explain it better than just my theory alone. Also my theory merging with Andres's theory would explain away the plot hole that @skar brought up with it being pretty difficult to tame the Cell Jrs if each were far stronger than C17.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 3:21:06 GMT
I'm Saiyan it shouldn't be picked apart to the extent we do it, but it happens anyways and I think authors knew it would happen so at least some of them might even purposely leave things unexplained for us to pick apart to our hearts content until if/when they change their minds and decide to provide their own canonical explanation. As for my theory being overcomplicated and requires me to pick apart what Toriyama provided, it isn't even remotely complicated at all and is easily discerned from the information that Toriyama provided. I came to that conclusion in a couple of seconds after I thought about how C17 had an infinite energy reactor. The problem is that's based on the misconception that infinite energy referred to their power when the story makes it clear that it was only their stamina. The reason it's overcomplicated is because it requires you take additional assumptions that aren't implied at all such as infinite energy also refers to their power, their power rises on its own, the future cyborgs were weaker because fighting vastly weaker opponents prevented their power from growing, and that #18 was just as powerful even though it was never stated that she trained or had gotten any stronger since the Cell Games. It's fine to have your own headcanon but there's a difference between headcanon that we made up for fun because the author never gave an explanation and arguing that this is what the author was hinting at. I don't think you're making a distinction and you're arguing this is just as likely as any simpler theory. Now you're saying that it's possible that #17 grew stronger by fighting the Cell Jrs along with it rising from his infinite energy reactor. Doesn't this contradict your explanation for why they weaker in the future? Future #17 was older and had more time for his power to rise yet his reactor couldn't make up for the power he lost from beating up two weak SSJs while present #17's power kept growing even as he was struggling to survive against the Cell Jrs?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 11:38:27 GMT
Hello there, just like to point out that the way AT wrote the manga, the androids never got weaker in the future, they just constantly held back until 17 decided to kill Gohan, the reason Trunks thought they were stronger was due to never seeing them fight at full power. The idea that the androids are actually weaker in the future is something that was only made for the history of Trunks ova.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 18:10:18 GMT
Hello there, just like to point out that the way AT wrote the manga, the androids never got weaker in the future, they just constantly held back until 17 decided to kill Gohan, the reason Trunks thought they were stronger was due to never seeing them fight at full power. The idea that the androids are actually weaker in the future is something that was only made for the history of Trunks ova. That makes sense! I remember Future 17 said he was suppressed when he fought Gohan but I assumed it was a combination of holding back and losing some power over time. It's a fictional power source so it could go on forever but it might be like a battery that weakens over the years.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Jun 26, 2019 11:15:52 GMT
I'm Saiyan it shouldn't be picked apart to the extent we do it, but it happens anyways and I think authors knew it would happen so at least some of them might even purposely leave things unexplained for us to pick apart to our hearts content until if/when they change their minds and decide to provide their own canonical explanation. As for my theory being overcomplicated and requires me to pick apart what Toriyama provided, it isn't even remotely complicated at all and is easily discerned from the information that Toriyama provided. I came to that conclusion in a couple of seconds after I thought about how C17 had an infinite energy reactor. The problem is that's based on the misconception that infinite energy referred to their power when the story makes it clear that it was only their stamina. The reason it's overcomplicated is because it requires you take additional assumptions that aren't implied at all such as infinite energy also refers to their power, their power rises on its own, the future cyborgs were weaker because fighting vastly weaker opponents prevented their power from growing, and that #18 was just as powerful even though it was never stated that she trained or had gotten any stronger since the Cell Games. It's fine to have your own headcanon but there's a difference between headcanon that we made up for fun because the author never gave an explanation and arguing that this is what the author was hinting at. I don't think you're making a distinction and you're arguing this is just as likely as any simpler theory. Now you're saying that it's possible that #17 grew stronger by fighting the Cell Jrs along with it rising from his infinite energy reactor. Doesn't this contradict your explanation for why they weaker in the future? Future #17 was older and had more time for his power to rise yet his reactor couldn't make up for the power he lost from beating up two weak SSJs while present #17's power kept growing even as he was struggling to survive against the Cell Jrs?
The story doesn't actually make it clear that infinite energy means only infinite stamina. It says infinite energy. Dr. Gero also stated at some point that he and 19 needed energy absorbers because they didn't have the infinite energy reactors. That to me clearly defines it as infinite energy. The only thing I'm doing is taking the fact that C17 & C18 couldn't defeat Piccolo, Cell, and Semi-Perfect Cell is because infinite energy obviously doesn't mean infinite in the conventional sense, but instead means that the amount is endless because it's always increasing. See I think you are the one under a misconception because you took that comment about his stamina remaining the same to mean that that is what infinite energy was referring to, when it actually didn't clearly state that. You made an assumption that that was the case and I don't blame you because I believe that's what most people have done including myself previously, but just because a majority believes something to be true that doesn't make it true. I no longer believe that to be true, because I've analyzed the evidence and the evidence points to the infinite stamina being a direct result of the infinite energy that is psuedo-infinite in the sense that it's always increasing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2019 4:12:24 GMT
You made an assumption that that was the case and I don't blame you because I believe that's what most people have done including myself previously, but just because a majority believes something to be true that doesn't make it true. I no longer believe that to be true, because I've analyzed the evidence and the evidence points to the infinite stamina being a direct result of the infinite energy that is psuedo-infinite in the sense that it's always increasing. This has nothing to do with the majority opinion being true. I mean the reason why so many believe it is because that what you get when taking that statement at face value. #17 says his power and Piccolo's are equal but that he has infinite enetgy referring to his stamina. Toriyama is a straightforward author so if he wants to tell us something then he usually has a character directly state it. He had many opportunities to at least imply that #17's grows over time due to his energy reactor but he didn't. Even after #17's power-up, the cyborgs only mention that they have infinite stamina and never get tired but no mention of that reactor helping #17's reach this level of power. You're saying you've analyzed the evidence but I have yet to understand how you came to that conclusion. To me this entire theory is pure headcanon and anything that conflicts with it gets countered with even more headcanon. You don't need evidence to have headcanon but you definitely need it when you're trying to convince someone that it could potentially be what the author was intending.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 3, 2019 1:20:06 GMT
I don't mind the idea of the cyborgs being able to grow stronger. I'm not sure I would have made 17 on par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans based on training solo in the last 11-12 years from the last time we saw 17 to the time of Super. I would have bought that 17 went to Bulma to get upgrades to his cybernetics that would allow him to train to get stronger as an excuse for why 17 is able to get stronger. I wouldn't even mind if he made it to SS3 level, as long as Piccolo received a similar power up. I commend Super on making the power system less rigid since we got another powerful ally that can rival the Saiyans without being a Saiyan. Dragon Ball has always gone the extreme power up route to close huge gaps in power. I think the only difference with Super is that now we have Toriyama no longer trying to attempt to come up with excuses.
Personally if this is a route Toei Animation and Toriyama want to go I would be fine with them coming up with some type of quick power ups to allow the non-Saiyans more chances to shine. I think after Golden Freeza it would even make sense for everyone else to try to get stronger to help out since they had to wait and hope Goku and Vegeta showed up in time before Freeza got bored and blew up the planet. Time to reveal humans actually have more secret untapped potential that Beerus and Whis can help unlock. Oh, hey let's reveal the Super Dragon Balls were created by some Namekian God that will allow Piccolo to assimilate him so Piccolo can rival the God levels. 17 and 18 get some upgrades to blow them up to SS3 levels. Gohan already has built in prodigy status to help him close the gap.
17 being so strong does seem weird to me, but it might at least looked better if the other characters got those extreme power ups as well to at least balance things out a bit, so when Super tries to use everyone will fight again as a main draw we actually get more excited for it. The old Dragon Ball days Goku was usually the strongest, but Krillin and others could compete and give us great fights in their own right. I'm all for going the opposite extreme of giving the Non-Saiyans their due with broken power ups if we get them back to contributing more. 17 is a good example of what I think the series could go back to if we get non-Saiyan strong fighters again.
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