regarded or represented as perfect or better than in reality.
As such she's not perfect.Far from it.
You have described U4 Buu as being what you would define as a Mary Sue:
I mean, I think people throw out terms without really knowing what it means. Is she borign and annoying and soaks up too much screen time? sure, if thats what you think is boring and annoying etc etc, but a mary sue would be zenbuu. or gast considering he can 1 shot stop vegetto as a ssj3.
U4 Buu has straight up praised Bra for her techniques. So if the *Mary Sue* character is praising her, she has already achieved one ideal. After all, by claiming him to be a Mary Sue you are saying he is a perfect, idealized character and he was positively shocked and amazed at her novel techniques.
So your perfect, idealized character is now praising a character by astonishing him with her skill. But sure, she's
not idealized in any way or fashion LOL.
She's not an idealized person, shes a flawed person who was called out for shit behavior,
Wait, shit behavior disqualifies you from being a Mary Sue? Buu also has temper problems, so that's a flaw with him as well. So why do you think U4 Buu is a Mary Sue then?
this actually is not as apt as you think.
the berserker thing is a big flaw for her ssj2. she killed people without even trying when in the form.
super strong is a db staple, so this isn't unusual. she's still not as super strong as many of the competitors.
pragmatic and prepared? she was caught off guard and unprepared in the majin revolt. she got lucky with those senzus. I don't get why you think shes super prepared. or did you mean vs kold? she was against a weaker opponent and handicapped herself and even then thats not pragmatic, thats just dumb arrogance. and the prepared part I guess you mean having senzus? She didn't actually need them. that fight could have proceded passed the part of the beat down by kold and just have her use her techniques, or just warp him out of there and she'd win.
How is anything she did pragmatic?
Nope, you asked how she differed in personality and being a berserker is automatically one thing that separates her from every Z Fighter. Likewise strength is part of DB, sure, but she's also stronger than every single canon character save for Vegito, and the only reason he's stronger is because DBM used SS2 and SS3, which were never shown in DBZ. As she stands, Bra is stronger than any character appearance in DBZ period, to include Buu Saga Vegito. Her strength is thus an ideal that DBZ never matched and something that characters like U18 Goku simply cannot match in DBM. Coincidentally, being stronger than canon characters is a very defining Sue trait, one that is not required to be a Creator's Pet.
As for pragmatism? She teleports people out of the ring for safety, she raises barriers for attacks that don't even harm her that coincidentally saves her from an attack that can, carries around senzu beans so hidden that even the audience didn't suspect she had any until the reveal, immediately seeks out a nucleus she shouldn't expect to exist, etc. If you thought of senzus as the
only pragmatic thing I can see why you'd think she is not.
See above. She's stronger than every canon appearance in DBZ. Even if her strength is given a basic explanation, her personality is not. No other Saiyan hybrid has this problem. Gohan gets mad, he is not a berserker.
Nope, praised by what you defined as a Mary Sue character, so they are in fact
INCREDIBLE techniques. Even if you suddenly declare him to not be a Mary Sue, the fact that he is the sum total of Buu and the Z Fighters and was still impressed shows they are meant to be amazing techniques.
Audience viewpoint does not matter for this category, as I've said before. But she does favor the color purple and is a hybrid as you already mentioned.
Why'd you stop there? What about the others you omitted? Not suit your talking points?
How about:
Author Investment? Canon Character Relationships? Story Elements? Presentation?
The only ones that don't honestly fit are names (because it's an alternate universe version) and accessories.
Sure, I will cite the exact same page and direct you to the parts you omitted.
Almost like the term is in flux as I've been saying.
>You have described U4 Buu as being what you would define as a Mary Sue:
I'd put him as maybe just expanding on what majin buu could be if he were left to his devices. he already had hax power in canon. I see this as an evolution of buu.
I do suppose he is OP. So is being a mary sue bad then? you are using buu who is much more powerful and skilled than bra to assign a label to him, and yet the mary sue branding does not really apply here either, as he still has flaws. He can't understand the namekian magic and had to absorb porunga in the novel. he failed the test of the heart to get the db's, and was beaten by gast.
A perfect divine beign would not be beaten so easily. But I guess he is the closest to omnipotent/sueness.
>U4 Buu has straight up praised Bra for her techniques.
this is one person? just the one? and those aren't "her" techniques. they are vegettos. he taught them to her. I guess if we go by being praised, then is goku a mary sue? he is praised in db constantly for beign a prodigy.
vegeta remarks he is the best.
yamcha remarks how great he must be that roshi is taking on a disciple.
the budokai annoncer makes mention of how great he must be because he was trained by muten roshi.
freeza comments that he truly is special, as he thought no one could reach ginyus level.
cell praises him on being several steps above the others.
buu makes mention of how cool he is, and how he likes to play with him.
I mean, I could go on, but I'd be here all day. one person praising bra for techniques she didn't create isn't special.
>Wait, shit behavior disqualifies you from being a Mary Sue? Buu also has temper problems, so that's a flaw with him as well. So why do you think U4 Buu is a Mary Sue then?
I actually don't. I might have addressed that in an earlier quote where I was being sarcastic.
So, right now, at this moment I feel u4 buu is a natural evolution of the majin buu character. he was already hax in canon. this isn't much more than a "what if buu was able to improve himself through endless absorbing"
I mean, you are right. His bad behavior, losing his temper is a flaw, and he
outright lost control of himself a big flaw. So I guess he really isn't.
>Nope, you asked how she differed in personality and being a berserker is automatically one thing that separates her from every Z Fighter.
Thats not really the same thing. I guess with more context, I should have said how is she better or someting other than being stronger? the ssj2 berserker thing isn't a positive thing, and she needed magic to overcome that.
Being a berserker is a flaw she had, and I'd chalk that up to a miscommunication on my part.
>Likewise strength is part of DB, sure, but she's also stronger than every single canon character save for Vegito,
ok? so should she be weaker? that would contradict most of what dbz set up with new figures in each arc being stronger than the last. videl and satan are like the exception. she was dropped by the early buu saga and had little relevance.
In any case strength is and should be a staple for new db characters. and she's still weaker than brolly.
again, considering the setting, if she were in star wars, she'd be too OP. but because she's in a db story, thats really the only way to be relevant in a plot about fighting.
>Her strength is thus an ideal that DBZ never matched and something that characters like U18 Goku simply cannot match in DBM. Coincidentally, being stronger than canon characters is a very defining Sue trait, one that is not required to be a Creator's Pet.
this goes back to the suspension of disbelief thing. Strength is a staple of db, so of course she needs to be strong. its part of the world that db exists in. each new arc introduced new and stronger characters. its db multiverse, so a universe where characters exist that are stronger should exist in 1 of the infinite universes.
so how strong should bra be then? as the daughter of vegetto, who is a canon character, she should be quite strong. The existence of vegetto was brought forth in the db manga vs buuhan. This is pre potara nerfing by super.
I mean, maybe if vegetto never existed, I could see your point, but vegetto was a canon part of the mangas continuity. This is a what if universe where they never defused, and the potara wasn't nerfed in dbs. so vegetto having a kid should be possible, and she should be powerful.
How strong should she be then to a canon manga figure?
>As for pragmatism?She teleports people out of the ring for safety, she raises barriers for attacks that don't even harm her that coincidentally saves her from an attack that can, carries around senzu beans so hidden that even the audience didn't suspect she had any until the reveal, immediately seeks out a nucleus she shouldn't expect to exist, etc. If you thought of senzus as the only pragmatic thing I can see why you'd think she is not.
Granted, some were fucking bad decisions on her part, like even exposing the senzus period.
so, this might be an in universe explanation for cells nuclueus.
Cell is famous in u18 and u16. satan is made to look strong on tv. all anyoen has to do is read a book or a magazine to know who cell is and mr satan respectively. suppose bra asks about cell and satan and if he is strong. gohan, being himself takes the time to tell the whole story on that, while vegetto laughs at the idea of satan being strong.
I could totally buy her knowing he has a core. But, does she know about the reinforced core? no, probably not. thats either a novel explanation or a plot hole.
The rest isn't pragmatism at all. she exposed her stash of senzus vs kold. now everyone knows it. man, that is some really bad planning on her part.
pragmatic and prepared? she was caught off guard and unprepared in the majin revolt. she got lucky with those senzus. I don't get why you think shes super prepared. or did you mean vs kold? she was against a weaker opponent and handicapped herself and even then thats not pragmatic, thats just dumb arrogance. and the prepared part I guess you mean having senzus? She didn't actually need them. that fight could have proceded passed the part of the beat down by kold and just have her use her techniques, or just warp him out of there and she'd win.
as for warping eleim outta there, that was because he was going to kill everyone. she did make the right call there, preventing everyones death from a fucking psycho.
I mean, I'd do that. I'd do that if just for my own personal safety. even if she wasn't trying to save anyone but herself, it was the right thing thing to do right there, and I bet goku would do the same.
I'd say that was maybe her only pragmatic decision.
>Nope, praised by what you defined as a Mary Sue character, so they are in fact INCREDIBLE techniques.
They aren't incredible. they're terrible. I already pointed out that goku has also been praised. All buu did was point out they had hidden techniques. in retrospect its not praise.
they even mention gotenks created this style.
OMG. GOKU MENTIONED SOMETHING WAS A GOOD FIGHT.
wait he does this all the time in canon.
and the times he praised freezas power, cells skills, buus intelligence in fighting in dbz and so on.
>Even if you suddenly declare him to not be a Mary Sue, the fact that he is the sum total of Buu and the Z Fighters and was still impressed shows they are meant to be amazing techniques.
Even if gotenks invented the style? eew.
Like, I know gotenks is supposed to be pretty cool and has unique powers like amking ghosts and shit, the binding donuts, and all that, but he isn't actually all that great. This makes it look like they are praising gotenks above anyone else, and they just copied him.
>Audience viewpoint does not matter for this category, as I've said before. But she does favor the color purple and is a hybrid as you already mentioned.
Purple is her mothers hair color. I don't know why that would matter? she looks like her mother bulma. And a hybrid is to be expected. gohan is a hybrid for that matter. I mean he went on to surpass goku at age 11. bra still hasn't surpassed her father yet.
>Why'd you stop there? What about the others you omitted? Not suit your talking points?
I'm not sure what you mean. I probably stopped there as it was late. but sure, I can go on further.
>Author Investment? Canon Character Relationships? Story Elements? Presentation?
ugh, do I have to read this all?
I'll just post the part where I said ""Even if a character has quite a number of the traits described below, Mary-Sueness can still be averted by a good enough explanation"
as for author investment, I guess you would have to invest some time fleshing out the details. But, I would say that he spent too much time on bra. and he did say he is devoting less tioe to her next time she fights vs the other fights. which is good. like 2 chapters for her, vs 3 chapters for everyone else. I think that actually is for the best.
>Canon Character Relationships
I tried searching this on tv tropes and found Relationship Sue.
ok, that can't be what you meant. she's not trying to be ina relation ship, so that can't be right. hang on.
nope. I can't find it on the site. I'm guessing it has to do with being related to canon characters?
So, this is db multiverse. The premise is that a character is from an alternate universe. I would say that in the suspension of disbelief part, there is bound to be a universe where a character is going to be different , but related to the main cast. That is the premise of the story. multiple universes.
I would say that if we were to use that definition, well, kakarot would also classify. he is the father from another universe to goten and gohan. u13 vegeta is also the father to u18 bra and trunks.
yamcha has a child named trunks in his universe.
This is why dilluting the mary sue branding with so many clunky definitions is poison. the definition for tied her own shoes sue is that a character who can tie her own shoes is a mary sue. some people can't seem to get the bunny style down, but she can tie her shoes in at least 1 way. not to be confused with the tripped over her shoes sue. A sue who can't even tie her shoes.
>Story Elements?
like what? because she's over saturated the manga? I agree there, but thats really just bad writing on salagirs part.
I'll end on this part from tv tropes
"Not A Mary Sue
Just as there have been many attempts to classify what Mary Sue means, a whole set of definitions to nullify the term have also come up. These are just as subjective as the above."
Flaws
The other influential Not A Mary Sue argument, this claims that having a Fatal Flaw (or two... four... four hundred) makes them not ideal and, thus, not a Mary Sue
. As mentioned in Mary Sue as Idealized Character, this usually results in other extremes that aren't too desirable.Genre Exemption
The claim that the very genre of the work is immune to accusations of Mary Sue. Generally comes up in genuine Escapist works such as Fairy Tales, Superhero comics, Romance Novels, Comedy (where it might simply be because they're a Mary Sue that makes it funny), and other such things.
Plausibility
The claim that a character's Mary Sue status can be explained away by pointing out the plausibility of all the events.
This kind of ignores the fact that most fiction is supposed to be about exceptional people. (Otherwise it's not interesting.) However, a major part of the issue with Mary Sues is that they break suspension of disbelief by being implausible within the setting. Many are willing to forgive a character on the basis of them not breaking SOD.
with the amount of flaws she has, the fiction being about exceptional people, I'd say that would assert she's she's really nothing special.