??????
|
Post by darrieloni on Jan 29, 2021 21:47:41 GMT
As we now have confirmation that page 1840 is the end of this highly controversial arc, and especially this base-breaking chapter, it feels as if this is the best time to ask this question. This is the second coming of this thread, for obvious reasons. I will be @'ing some of the people who contributed a lot to the first thread, and I would like to ask them: Have you changed your mind since the previous thread? Has your opinion remained the same? Why/Why not?To both old thread posters, and new posters, I pose the question: Is U16 Bra a Mary Sue?
The @'s will happen in a comment below, as I'll be tagging plenty of people (the thread was fairly big), so if it ends up being too many mentions, the comment can be deleted while preserving the thread.
|
|
??????
|
Post by darrieloni on Jan 29, 2021 21:57:26 GMT
|
|
??????
|
Post by squirz96 on Jan 29, 2021 22:08:32 GMT
She is creators beloved pet. All to be honest with each chapter or panel that it is dedicated to her it gets worse. There are still those saying that she needs time for development. It was what 10-12 years since she has been introduced? That's plenty enough of time. Story would had much greater direction if she lost her fight against Ginyu Cold.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Xeno Black on Jan 29, 2021 22:30:12 GMT
I shall keep this short, but after reading posts made by Shady Doorags, Ashanark, and darrieloni, it is absolutely apparent that she is indeed both a Mary Sue and a creators pet. I vaguely recall darrieloni mentioning that she only two points away from being a dictionary perfect example of a Mary Sue, and it all adds up with the evidence backing it. Son Bra, while having good potential on paper, just has poor execution that sadly affects the entire story surrounding her. Both Salagir and Asura's fondness for her is so strong that she just escapes real punishment without any satisfactory comeuppance. That arguably the most damning part about all of this. You lost your body to a demonic alien with no foreseeable way to fix it on your own? It okay, daddy Vegetto is here to save you in less than 20 minutes. Wait, you got majinized and killed dozens of people including the highest god and your own brother? That also fine, we have a script made to make you look like the victim as all blame instead goes to Vegetto with Buu fixing everything.
What a load of pure garbage.
Shoot, even other creator pets such as Broly or Zen Buu at least suffer from a major mistake if they made one that had lasting consequences for them (defeated and expelled back to Universe 20 or trapped by Gast and Grand Kai's technique, etc). I like to think that many fans would now rather have Cell be the main villain who was killed by Gohan as the other Gohan killed Babidi with his Maxi-Kienzan. It would have been a satisfying conclusion with four subsequent main chapters to spare for round 4 developments. Yes, it does cut out Majin Bra entirely and the well received Budokai Royale 5 from the mix, but it a sacrifice for the greater good of maintaining DBM's integrity at that point. I rather have a short yet satisfying majin rebellion than a long and contrived version that ended up as the final product for us. At least that my two cents on the matter.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Lurking on Jan 29, 2021 22:51:50 GMT
Given how hard the narrative is trying to sweep her negative qualities under the rug, so much so that the cast will likely pretend she never had them, she seriously might wrap around to fulfilling the 'totally pure' checkbox for vanilla mary sues. Until then, I'll settle on jerk sue for safety, but freely admit that she is just as bad if not worse than the vanilla flavor.
she also belongs in the trash
|
|
??????
|
Post by lssj200000 on Jan 29, 2021 23:00:07 GMT
You see before the whole majin rebellion thing I’d have said no she’s just a bad character but considering characters are literally changing their personalities, doing things that contradict their emotions and literally being bipolar just cause she’s almost a textbook definition now. It is almost funny.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Jan 29, 2021 23:05:08 GMT
I feel she has also become a Mary Sue now. Before I thought she wasn’t one, but that she was more of creator favorite character who got a lot of focus. I’ve been really disappointed with how this chapter went that I stopped posting on here for a while and just started lurking. This character had a lot of potential, but it was squandered and she ironically became the thing that this series itself made fun of with an actual Mary Sue character in Universe 2. I’m sorry, but I’ve seen this type of character done better before so it makes U16 a Ra’s shortcomings really stick out to me more. I am more cynical on how her character is will be handled from now on. Since she is a major character of the story it makes me think DBM on a whole will suffer even more. I’m getting Naruto flashbacks for DBM. I think Ash said it best Bra is becoming more of Sasuke character where she became less and less sympathetic, but the story insist isn’t really at fault at all. The story continues to create more and more outlandish scenarios to justify her actions rather than organic reasons.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Teh Jammah on Jan 29, 2021 23:27:01 GMT
In the original poll I voted "no, but just as bad". This time I voted "wasn't but is now". Senzugate was bad enough on its own, but now that the Majin Rebellion arc is done it's clear that this is where her transformation into full-blown Suedom kicked in.
The Majinisation seemed to fix a lot of the problems with her character... until the end of the arc turned into her effortlessly & brutally slaughtering everyone, cure herself of badness, have Vegeto & Gotenks act wildly out of character, eliminated her weakness of uncontrollable SSJ2 and be easily forgiven by everyone.
And I think the blame for this sits just as much on Asura - much as I hate to shit on he of the God tier art - as it does on Salagir. He clearly enjoys drawing female characters (which to be fair gave us Rebellion arc co-MVP, Best Girl Phipsil) and has been noted to have some level of input into the story... and IMO has enabled the bad as much as his art has enhanced the good. And the point where Bra stopped being snarky and kinda assholish and became the narrative sucking black hole of insufferableness is, from what I remember, around the time he became main artist.
|
|
??????
|
Post by thebritwriter on Jan 29, 2021 23:41:25 GMT
A lot of views had been said on her, and a lot have points or dramatized for entertaining read (something most of us including myself have done)
What it comes down to me are two key points. -Far too much emphasis on majin Bra being a 'badass' with no character development or display of inner turmoil or admission to that. -Skirting round the issues of consequences.
I don't believe the latter was intended but I think salagir had wrote himself into a situation that required addressing some harsh issues, which for whatever reason was not approached. So instead we have a resolution that acts as a unsatisfying reset.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Lurking on Jan 30, 2021 0:47:20 GMT
-Skirting round the issues of consequences. I don't believe the latter was intended but I think salagir had wrote himself into a situation that required addressing some harsh issues, which for whatever reason was not approached. Accurate. The worst part of it, though, is that it's an issue they actively created themselves. That's what really kills me. If you cut out the U16 specials she'd be the sort of just there jerk she was up until page... 300 or so?
|
|
??????
|
Post by supergojita3 on Jan 30, 2021 1:17:09 GMT
My opinion is "nah" because she has too many flaws and isn't liked. someone sabotaging her murder isn't "liking" somone.
I googled the definition of a mary sue and it reads as such:
"A “Mary Sue” is either a female or male (sometimes called a “Gary Stu”) character who embodies the perfect hero/heroine. Often, she is an idealized version of the author herself. Mary Sues are usually beautiful, talented, have few or no flaws, and are loved by everyone."
she is not perfect, she isn't an idealized version of the author as far as I'm aware, though it is a favorite trope of salagirs to use strong female characters, like this is the 3rd time he's done this as far as I know. amilova or whatever, and that witch one. maybe more. Its simply cliche more than anything else.
Shes beutiful or rather has certain looks one might find appealign from a subjective view (big boobs, asura draws her butt a way he likes I'm sure) but so does bulma, lunch, and 99% of AT women, so this isn't unusual.
Few flaws? no flaws? what isn't a flaw about her? she is annoying to her family, she couldn't control her power without magical aid, was susceptible to mind control because of her evil nature, has issues dealing with being wrong, wants to torture villains who had nothing to do with the problem (zangya) is rude, arrogant to a fault to the point she sabotaged her own effort to save another universe when she didn't have to do so, mocks the misfortune of others, and other faults I'm sure. She isn't perfect, far from it.
>loved by everyone
Her own family can barely stand her, vegetto wanted to kill her. Bystanders suggesting someone not be murdered isn't love, its somethign many would do in the heat of the moment.
Its like shes the opposite of a mary sue.
I mean, I think people throw out terms without really knowing what it means. Is she borign and annoying and soaks up too much screen time? sure, if thats what you think is boring and annoying etc etc, but a mary sue would be zenbuu. or gast considering he can 1 shot stop vegetto as a ssj3.
if being stronger than the main cast and having weird techniques is a mary sue thing, then every person introduced in db after the last arc is a mary sue. Vegeta is the long lost prince of gokus long dead race, is stronger than him, and can not only control his great ape form, but can become one almost at will. and he learned ki control in seconds, a thing goku took years to do.
No, vegetas not a mary sue, but he sure did soak up the screen time. And no his "punishments" don't absolve this either. Mary sues aren't not mary sues because they got beat up, and killed only to be revived an hour later. or in the buu saga 2 days later.
I think what you guys are suggesting is that shes a "poorly done" character. "poorly written". among other things.
Now, I've seen creators pet thrown out there. I'd have to check the definition of that, and hang with me on this as there aren't any hard definitions for some of these things. mary sue beign one of them too. I will bet bra fits the creators pet theme, but let me check on it.
> For context, a creator's pet is a character that the writer usually adores or relates to personally and devotes an ever-increasing proportion of the story to, often despite vocal dislike from the audience.
Bingo! this definition is objectively true. I can't argue against this as it fits like a glove.
I think you guys meant creators pet.
|
|
??????
|
Post by tuuuu on Jan 30, 2021 7:47:17 GMT
I'm not a fan of the term, for how variedly it gets thrown about. Besides, Mary Sue debates are tangled in fanfiction semantics, making them a generally huge waste of everyone's time.
Anyhow, earlier, I would have argued that Bra wasn't Mary Sue. Sure, she was overly powerful, but that had a decent in-universe explanation. And she had clear flaws, as proven by her majinisation, even though all that was handled sloppily.
But then she removed the Majin™ Logo herself, a feat, which had never happened before with other characters, raising the question why nobody else ever did that. It seemed she had suddenly become (for no reason other than that passive debacle) more metaphysically good than every majinised character ever, including canon Vegeta at the moment of committing sudoku to undo his grave mistake. (Damn, I'm now perturbed by how Bra baited about being willing to die, but then just backpedalled on that a few pages later.)
I feared that brand removal meant she had skipped a few arcfuls of character development into pristine purity, but it was actually worse. She had managed to convince several other characters about her miracle character development with nary a word. Awful.
Now "Mary Sue" seems like a decent description of the character, even if she's probably not a self-insert (but who knows?).
|
|
??????
|
Post by darrieloni on Jan 30, 2021 11:22:25 GMT
My opinion is "nah" because she has too many flaws and isn't liked. someone sabotaging her murder isn't "liking" somone. I googled the definition of a mary sue and it reads as such: "A “Mary Sue” is either a female or male (sometimes called a “Gary Stu”) character who embodies the perfect hero/heroine. Often, she is an idealized version of the author herself. Mary Sues are usually beautiful, talented, have few or no flaws, and are loved by everyone." she is not perfect, she isn't an idealized version of the author as far as I'm aware, though it is a favorite trope of salagirs to use strong female characters, like this is the 3rd time he's done this as far as I know. amilova or whatever, and that witch one. maybe more. Its simply cliche more than anything else. Shes beutiful or rather has certain looks one might find appealign from a subjective view (big boobs, asura draws her butt a way he likes I'm sure) but so does bulma, lunch, and 99% of AT women, so this isn't unusual. Few flaws? no flaws? what isn't a flaw about her? she is annoying to her family, she couldn't control her power without magical aid, was susceptible to mind control because of her evil nature, has issues dealing with being wrong, wants to torture villains who had nothing to do with the problem (zangya) is rude, arrogant to a fault to the point she sabotaged her own effort to save another universe when she didn't have to do so, mocks the misfortune of others, and other faults I'm sure. She isn't perfect, far from it. Something Mary Sue OCs often have to pretend to not be a Mary Sue, is to have """flaws""" which are either stated but never shown, which are "downsides" of how awesome they are, or in Bra's case: have "flaws" that are of zero consequence. Every time her "flaws" kick in, they're instantly forgiven and she faces no consequences, with retcons and OOC moments flooding in to save her. Plus she has been magically given control of SSJ2 now, so what "flaws" does she have left? Where is this coming from? Other than Vegetto (who was portrayed by the story as being in the wrong for disliking her), what member of Bra's family dislikes Bra? Gohan is super caring and tried to save her right up to his death. Goten doesn't care that she killed him. Trunks and the others don't really get any interactions with her. Also, again, Jerk Sue is a variant Simply being powerful does not make someone a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. The fact that you say this right after accusing people of not knowing what the term means is bitterly ironic. Also, as stated by multiple people before, these two can also be called Gary Stus. But even they have less sue qualities than Bra. Lemme copy paste my list from other comments: ✓ Is an OC
✓ Stronger than all canon characters (Stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. SSJ 2/3 Vegetto were not in the canon, and Zuu Buu and this interpretation of Broly are DBM originals)
✓ Is a hybrid but gets qualities of a full blooded [race] (in this case, she's a Hybrid but has double saiyan nature and drive to fight which all other hybrids lack)
✓ Blood related to an estabilished character
✓ Plot bends itself in all sorts of impossible shapes to avoid consequences for the character
✓ Constantly praised for no reason
✓ Pulls new powers out of ass to win
✓ Characters who don't like the character are painted in a negative light
✓ Hogs the screentime
✓ Even enemies praise the character
✓ Ultra cool unique powers no one else has shown for some reason
✓ Breaks rules estabilshed by the author just to show how awesome the character is
✓ Has a version of a normal power is stronger than normal for no given reason
Let's not forget how all of her flaws are excused as being "not her fault" or "beyond her control," and she's always immediately forgiven and excused by anyone except whoever is meant to be the bad guy. That, plus the plot bending itself backwards to avoid consequences for her, and she has now been magically given control of her SSJ2 so her flaw is gone, means we can possibly add...
✓ Has no flaws, or insignifcant flaws that don't actually have any negative impact
Bra is only two traits away from being the perfect definition of a Mary Sue. The first one being the fact that she isn't some all-loving sweet heroine. Although if you don't believe that to be an obligatory trait then she's only one trait away, that being the fact that she isn't a self-insert.
However, the Mary Sue gag character in DBM itself isn't a self insert, so...
Getting beat up may not make a character a non-sue, but it is a consequence, something which Bra avoid at every turn. So yes, his punishments do absolve some of it, but not all. Even then we're not left with enough sue-ish qualities to call Vegeta a Gary Stu. If Vegeta were like Bra, much like Axalon said, every time he did something stupid we'd be treated to a special chapter trying to absolve him of any guilt. He would also always have had some bullshit to pull out of his ass and save him whenever he was losing, and characters would constantly act OOC around him to make him look cooler. The "But Vegeta!" argument has been debunked and thoroughly gutted every time it is brought up. I don't know why it is even attempted any more. I really wish people would stop since I hate Vegeta and hate having to defend him. She can be both. In fact, I'd say that she is both.
|
|
??????
|
Post by supergojita3 on Jan 30, 2021 17:04:53 GMT
My opinion is "nah" because she has too many flaws and isn't liked. someone sabotaging her murder isn't "liking" somone. I googled the definition of a mary sue and it reads as such: "A “Mary Sue” is either a female or male (sometimes called a “Gary Stu”) character who embodies the perfect hero/heroine. Often, she is an idealized version of the author herself. Mary Sues are usually beautiful, talented, have few or no flaws, and are loved by everyone." she is not perfect, she isn't an idealized version of the author as far as I'm aware, though it is a favorite trope of salagirs to use strong female characters, like this is the 3rd time he's done this as far as I know. amilova or whatever, and that witch one. maybe more. Its simply cliche more than anything else. Shes beutiful or rather has certain looks one might find appealign from a subjective view (big boobs, asura draws her butt a way he likes I'm sure) but so does bulma, lunch, and 99% of AT women, so this isn't unusual. Few flaws? no flaws? what isn't a flaw about her? she is annoying to her family, she couldn't control her power without magical aid, was susceptible to mind control because of her evil nature, has issues dealing with being wrong, wants to torture villains who had nothing to do with the problem (zangya) is rude, arrogant to a fault to the point she sabotaged her own effort to save another universe when she didn't have to do so, mocks the misfortune of others, and other faults I'm sure. She isn't perfect, far from it. Something Mary Sue OCs often have to pretend to not be a Mary Sue, is to have """flaws""" which are either stated but never shown, which are "downsides" of how awesome they are, or in Bra's case: have "flaws" that are of zero consequence. Every time her "flaws" kick in, they're instantly forgiven and she faces no consequences, with retcons and OOC moments flooding in to save her. Plus she has been magically given control of SSJ2 now, so what "flaws" does she have left? Where is this coming from? Other than Vegetto (who was portrayed by the story as being in the wrong for disliking her), what member of Bra's family dislikes Bra? Gohan is super caring and tried to save her right up to his death. Goten doesn't care that she killed him. Trunks and the others don't really get any interactions with her. Also, again, Jerk Sue is a variant Simply being powerful does not make someone a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. The fact that you say this right after accusing people of not knowing what the term means is bitterly ironic. Also, as stated by multiple people before, these two can also be called Gary Stus. But even they have less sue qualities than Bra. Lemme copy paste my list from other comments: ✓ Is an OC
✓ Stronger than all canon characters (Stronger than SSJ1 Vegetto. SSJ 2/3 Vegetto were not in the canon, and Zuu Buu and this interpretation of Broly are DBM originals)
✓ Is a hybrid but gets qualities of a full blooded [race] (in this case, she's a Hybrid but has double saiyan nature and drive to fight which all other hybrids lack)
✓ Blood related to an estabilished character
✓ Plot bends itself in all sorts of impossible shapes to avoid consequences for the character
✓ Constantly praised for no reason
✓ Pulls new powers out of ass to win
✓ Characters who don't like the character are painted in a negative light
✓ Hogs the screentime
✓ Even enemies praise the character
✓ Ultra cool unique powers no one else has shown for some reason
✓ Breaks rules estabilshed by the author just to show how awesome the character is
✓ Has a version of a normal power is stronger than normal for no given reason
Let's not forget how all of her flaws are excused as being "not her fault" or "beyond her control," and she's always immediately forgiven and excused by anyone except whoever is meant to be the bad guy. That, plus the plot bending itself backwards to avoid consequences for her, and she has now been magically given control of her SSJ2 so her flaw is gone, means we can possibly add...
✓ Has no flaws, or insignifcant flaws that don't actually have any negative impact
Bra is only two traits away from being the perfect definition of a Mary Sue. The first one being the fact that she isn't some all-loving sweet heroine. Although if you don't believe that to be an obligatory trait then she's only one trait away, that being the fact that she isn't a self-insert.
However, the Mary Sue gag character in DBM itself isn't a self insert, so...
Getting beat up may not make a character a non-sue, but it is a consequence, something which Bra avoid at every turn. So yes, his punishments do absolve some of it, but not all. Even then we're not left with enough sue-ish qualities to call Vegeta a Gary Stu. If Vegeta were like Bra, much like Axalon said, every time he did something stupid we'd be treated to a special chapter trying to absolve him of any guilt. He would also always have had some bullshit to pull out of his ass and save him whenever he was losing, and characters would constantly act OOC around him to make him look cooler. The "But Vegeta!" argument has been debunked and thoroughly gutted every time it is brought up. I don't know why it is even attempted any more. I really wish people would stop since I hate Vegeta and hate having to defend him. She can be both. In fact, I'd say that she is both. "Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt." I'm just going by the google definition here. So by the google definition, no she isn't. Where is your definition from? is it a verifiable source? is it anything considered official, or is it a fan site? . wikipedia would also be easily edited. These aren't just some rando people on the internet who said that is it? I'd still take tv tropes over just some people you spoke to who already had a bias. I also don't want personal anecdotes from your friends. tvtropes even adds a clause that says "There are subjectives, and then there are these. While you may believe a work fits here, and you might be right, people tend to have rather vocal, differing opinions about this subject. Please keep these off of the work's page." and it seems like you dismissed my arguments by moving the goal post. why don't we start by defining the mary sue, and not use jerk sue alternates, as you said mary sue specifically. jerk sue is defined as "The basis of this trope is the tendency of many Darker and Edgier writers to create a bitter, ill-spirited, confrontational, or downright mean character and still play them up as an ideal person, or just get away with being a bullying Jerkass." I got this one off of the tvtropes site specifically. this could apply to many characters. so this could apply to bra, but the mary sue one variant does not. vegeta for example could be a jerk sue. There are people who use vegeta as a good example, by saying he's a good father, despite punching his son in a training session and suggesting going to the park makes it ok. This is alsopart of the clique that suggests goku is a bad father because he wasn't around..because he was dead both times. when he was alive he was around almost 24/7. EOZ the exception to train uub. if we were to say "vegeta doesn't count because he was called out for his bad decisions" bra was also called out for her bad decisions. The match with kold for example. and vegettos statement to bra. So what I'm asking, is are you asking if shes a jerk sue, or the mary sue specifically? and if its the jerk sue one specifically, the poll needs to reflect that. because if you have the poll set up to be incorrectly phrased, and you meant jerk sue, then you might as well ask if shes a chocolate chip cookie. whats funny is that tv tropes even has a blurb about the over use of the mary sue branding. "An alarmingly widespread use of the term, and one reason a lot of people feel that the term has lost whatever useful meaning it once had. There are a lot of reasons why this usage is so common. Most obviously, as rants about and mockery of the Mary Sue phenomenon became increasingly well-known in fandom, it became increasingly easy to throw the term around as Flame Bait. The fact that so many of the other definitions are highly subjective doesn't help" alright, so that was just a fun little easter egg I found. I still wouldn't use the term mary sue specifically, but if you want to be more specific, then cite the one you want. jerk sue is fine, but its so vague and broad, it can apply to many characters. I would suggest being more specific than just mary sue, and maybe find a more fitting description that doesn't apply to many db characters. What I mean is narrow it down. Considering bras recent attitude after the majin rebellion, I guess jerk sue doesn't apply anymore either. she got real chill all of a sudden. Is gast a mary sue, or zenbuu? they certainly fit the mold on that, and considering that gast can stop ssj3 vegetto without breaking a sweat, I'd say yes. zenbuu, maybe even more so as he has the owers from porunga in his world. For context: I don't mind tvtropes.com, but I wouldn't take wikipedia. it looks like tvtropes got wise to some charlatans and stopped editing on the mary sue page. no examples can be found. so thats a step in the right direction. some "not a mary sue" examples include: Flaws The other influential Not A Mary Sue argument, this claims that having a Fatal Flaw (or two... four... four hundred) makes them not ideal and, thus, not a Mary Sue. As mentioned in Mary Sue as Idealized Character, this usually results in other extremes that aren't too desirable. bra got tons. moving on. >Genre Exemption The claim that the very genre of the work is immune to accusations of Mary Sue. Generally comes up in genuine Escapist works such as Fairy Tales, Superhero comics, Romance Novels, Comedy (where it might simply be because they're a Mary Sue that makes it funny), and other such things. Plausibility well, db or the shonen manga it comes from has many characters in it who have some degree of powers she has. she's simply the tenshinhan of the manga, where she is somewhat stronger and has better powers but they are still defined as being from another source. tien got his flight from his master, as well as his move sets, like the kikoho. bra got hers from vegetto and gotenks for the more varied move set. >Plausibility The claim that a character's Mary Sue status can be explained away by pointing out the plausibility of all the events. This kind of ignores the fact that most fiction is supposed to be about exceptional people. (Otherwise it's not interesting.) However, a major part of the issue with Mary Sues is that they break suspension of disbelief by being implausible within the setting. Many are willing to forgive a character on the basis of them not breaking SOD well, yeah, this works too. shes a hybrid saiyan, and hybrids are known to be strong compared to their fathers. shes actually much weaker than her father, so that makes sense too. I'd say jerk sue works, but its too broad a sentiment on google. lets see what tv tropes has to say. >Not every Mary Sue can have the patience of a saint. After all, if you were that perfect, lesser beings would get on your nerves too. Everyone falling in love with you? It's such a pain! People not always realizing that you are the most kick ass person here and you have to be the one to save the day? Fools! People expecting you to follow the same rules as the other characters? You'll show them! Grr! Get out of Jerk Sue's way! ok, all kidding aside, vegeta does get away with much. he even threatened to kill anyone who was going to stop gero from making the androids, and no one bats an eye. he stole yamchas girls, and his son went on to save the future.
|
|
??????
|
Post by darrieloni on Jan 31, 2021 13:30:22 GMT
I'm just going by the google definition here. So by the google definition, no she isn't. Where is your definition from? is it a verifiable source? is it anything considered official, or is it a fan site? . wikipedia would also be easily edited. These aren't just some rando people on the internet who said that is it? I'd still take tv tropes over just some people you spoke to who already had a bias. I also don't want personal anecdotes from your friends. tvtropes even adds a clause that says "There are subjectives, and then there are these. While you may believe a work fits here, and you might be right, people tend to have rather vocal, differing opinions about this subject. Please keep these off of the work's page." and it seems like you dismissed my arguments by moving the goal post. why don't we start by defining the mary sue, and not use jerk sue alternates, as you said mary sue specifically. jerk sue is defined as "The basis of this trope is the tendency of many Darker and Edgier writers to create a bitter, ill-spirited, confrontational, or downright mean character and still play them up as an ideal person, or just get away with being a bullying Jerkass." I got this one off of the tvtropes site specifically. this could apply to many characters. so this could apply to bra, but the mary sue one variant does not. So just straight up semantics then? I'm going by the definition of Mary Sue I mostly see used on basically every writing discussion, and again I straight up said she is two tickboxes short of fitting the definition perfectly. You just gonna completely ignore that then accuse me of dismissing your arguments? The list I gave is a pretty decent explanation of how the definition works. She's super special and unique in every way. Everyone is amazed by her powers, even her enemies. People who go against her are painted in a negative light. She never faces any consequences. People act OOC and retcons happen for her sake. She's allowed to pull fight-winning moves off-panel. She's the only one so far actually shown using those uber special techniques. Her SSJ2 is x5 stronger than anyone else's. The list goes on and on. You wanna say my definition is just colloquialism, sure, go ahead. But it is both widespread and close to the original (literally only 2 points away) that I consider it to be just as valid of a definition. No. It isn't from a biased source since this (and the main page) are the only pages where I see Bra being discussed at all. Mostly I see it being used when criticizing OCs You are once again just straight up ignoring what I said. I said Vegeta faces consequences. He doesn't just get called out. He gets portrayed as a villain. He gets the shit beaten out of him. He dies. He goes to hell. He gets tortured. And he still gets away with too much. Whereas anyone against Bra is portrayed as wrong and the closest thing to consequences she gets is a few sentences which are instantly forgotten so we can instead get more stuff trying to make us side with her. I used "Mary Sue" for multiple reasons: - She is about 99% a perfect match for the dictionary definition - She is a perfect match of the popular Mary Sue definition most people use in discussions. - She is closer to being a Mary Sue than the actual Mary Sue from U2, and that one is literally called a Mary Sue - Very few people know what a Jerk Sue is. The last time this debate happened, it had to be explained several times. - It's straight up clickbait since I wanted people to come in and vote, as well as share their viewpoint. It's why I tagged so many people. - I just like seeing the reaction of Bra's defense drones Your comparison with a cookie is terrible. It'd be more like arguing whether a hot dog is a sandwich. And don't think I don't see you trying to discredit my argument by comparing it to something stupid. By now you have proven that you have no right to complain about fallacies.What characters can it apply to? It doesn't apply to Vegeta at all and that's the only example you gave. Vegetto? He's already faced more consequences than Bra for doing far less, and hasn't really had any asspulls. Piccolo? Only if you think he's responsible for what his father did, and even then he'd tick way, way, way less boxes than Bra. Vegeta, Vegetto, and Piccolo combined would still fit the definition less than Bra does. This is ironic again, because I have called Zen Buu a Gary Stu before, and that sentiment seems to be common based on the discussions we see here and in the main page. Gast we know next to nothing about but I have also called his bullshit out, and being strong does not make someone a Gary Stu. Again, this is ironic. You sure love ignoring people's arguments. I have already pointed out that her """flaws""" were false all along, and now have been removed altogether. And you're ignoring stuff again. Imagine if Tenshinahan actually were like Bra: - After breaking Yamcha's leg, we get treated of a flashback to try to make him look less guilty. Same for every time he does something questionable. - He's way stronger than every canon character - He pulls out a Senzu off-panel to win against Goku in the tournament - Toriyama claims he always had the Senzus even though he didn't use them before when he had reason to - Characters keep acting OOC and retcons keep happening so he doesn't have to face consequences - His only flaws never impact him, and are magically fixed later. I don't think I need to keep going. This comparison is wrong on all levels. Now, I'm not sure if this one is canon or just a rumor that gets repeated a lot, but doesn't she have "double Saiyan" DNA/nature unlike all the other hybrids? That makes her different from all the others. She also goes berserk simply from being too strong, something which has literally never happened before. Gohan becoming cold and sadistic in SSJ2 is not the same as her going bananas and destroying everything, friend and foe alike. Yes. Vegeta does get away with too much but he isn't a Jerk Sue, and not even close to it. It has already been explained why several times. Stop ignoring it. Also, Vegeta's son doing something has literally nothing to do with Vegeta being a sue or not. So thorought this post you have ignored nearly everything I said, and accused me of fallacies while comitting them yourself. All of it over semantics, which were also born from ignoring what I said.
|
|
??????
|
Post by darthwin on Jan 31, 2021 18:56:50 GMT
I'm kind of curious what consequences did Vegeta really face for his actions because the only thing that comes to mind is the perfect cell situation which let's be fair a lot of people screwed up in regards to Cell obtaining perfection.
If we mean losing to android 18 I don't see how that qualifies because nothing was going to change that particular outcome one way or another.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Jan 31, 2021 19:05:22 GMT
I voted “She wasn’t, but she is now.” Historically I’ve seen several defenses for Bra not being a Sue: 1. Sidestepping the actual writing around Bra. Some are character attacks, like “You all are overreacting” or “You all are sexist.” I’ve only ever seen the latter used to defend bad characters and Mary Sues, so I don't take it very seriously. Heck, the sexism defense is almost a staple of Mary Sues now. Then we get “You shouldn’t judge because DBM hasn’t ended yet.” This is a delaying tactic. Even if we concede readers have no right or ability to critique a story mid-story (which we shouldn’t)... believe me, Naruto ending didn’t magically make Sasuke any better of a character. If Bra is to ever not be a Sue, it won’t be because DBM has ended. Finally, there's “She’s good exactly the way she is”. I can't argue likes vs. dislikes, so my only response is “okay.” 2. Definition technicalities. Those who disqualify Bra as a Mary Sue on the basis she isn’t a self-insert character is missing the forest for the trees. There are self-insert characters in fiction who are well-done, and many wish-fulfillment characters who are well-done. The underlying point of Mary Sues is they are bad writing. If someone can’t argue Bra is good writing, only that she isn’t technically a Sue, they’re conceding they’ve effectively lost the argument. 3. Moving the goalposts. People have done this for a decade now. Originally, the argument was “Bra isn’t that bad.” Then it became “So what if she’s bad? [Character] was worse.” Then it became “She’s a Hate Sink.” Now, at last, it’s “She’s a Creator’s Pet, not a Mary Sue.” The fact we’re still doing this years later and the goalposts have moved so far instead of those writing issues actually being resolved only goes to show just how consistent the data-points are, which is one of the bigger evidences for why she is a Mary Sue. The old defense that Bra is a Hate Sink (which I myself made back in the day) is flat-out not true, due to this last chapter and the prior flashbacks showing we’re clearly meant to pity and cheer for Bra. That Bra is a Creator’s Pet can’t be reasonably argued against anymore. Short version: Why Bra Is A Mary Sue
What are Bra's flaws? 1. She’s kind of a jerk. 2. She goes uncontrollably berserk in SS2. 3. She has enough badness in her heart to get controlled by Babidi. What consequences does Bra get for these flaws? 1. None. There isn’t a single instance where Bra’s personality negatively impacted her (such as someone not trusting her, or her losing due to arrogance.) 2. Salagir himself explicitly states Bra isn’t at fault for anything she does in her berserk state, and the story reinforces this. She's faced no permanent consequences for her berserker moments, and no one heroic in U16 distrusts or fears her for having them (not even Goten, whom she killed.) 3. Vegito gets mad at her for getting Majinized; otherwise, everyone says Bra is not at fault for what she did as a Majin (indeed, it's Vegito who gets the lecture.) Bra has flaws, but they’re meaningless flaws. The only apparent lasting consequence Bra has had her entire story is Vegito getting angry at her... and even if it sticks, it’s not necessarily a negative consequence. Vegito is clearly in the wrong so incurring his wrath isn’t a bad thing. A character with meaningless flaws is effectively indistinguishable from a character with no flaws. And yes, flawless characters are Mary Sues. Combine this with her enormous amount of screentime (double Goku’s by panel, with this latest chapter), how much better she is compared to “canon” characters, the amount of retcons surrounding her, how much attention she gets in-universe and from the author, and how much he attempts to justify her (along with frequently accusing her haters as being sexist or having “Freudian” reasons to do so)... and I don’t think a reasonable argument can be made at this point that she’s not. Back in 2016 after Cold/Ginyu, yes. Now, with Bra murdering half the cast, getting praise and a free power boost, and all blame shifted to Vegito… yeah, there’s been a major breakdown in writing somewhere. She is a Sue. (Specifically, a Jerk Sue.) Long Version: Why Bra Is A Mary Sue
It might be helpful to look at common Mary Sue traits, the Jerk Sue, and Suetiful All Along. I’ll quote some parts from these articles. See if anything from them sounds familiar… From “Suetiful All Along”: From “Jerk Sue”:
Now let’s go through the list of Common Sue Traits. A Mary Sue doesn’t have to have every trait listed in that article (and Bra doesn't) but I’ll list those which are most relevant. 1. Despite never talking to U16 Bra before, despite her insulting their leader and humiliating him, despite U18 making the exact same offer and doing so kindly, U19 trusts Bra to win the tournament for them, and it has twice been emphasized they are relying on her even though U18 is doing the same thing. (Note their looks of despair when it seems like Bra is losing against Cold, and also Phipsil’s speech.) Why they put more faith in Bra over U18 is nothing but plot (if not author favoritism.) 2. I believe Bra is the first person to break down in tears in the context of the main tournament, and certainly the only person to say she’s had a hard life, that people don’t understand what she’s been through, and (implicitly) that they should go easy on her. U18 Bra at first calls out U16 Bra for this... but later turns right around and supports her against Vegito. Gotenks does the same, meaning Bra’s claim to having a hard life justifying her flaws is validated both in- and out-of-universe. 3. I went over this in the short version, because it’s especially important. 4. Salagir’s frequent comparisons of Bra to Vegeta heavily indicate Bra is meant to be a Vegeta-esque character: a jerk to everyone but still lovable to the fanbase. However, the fact Salagir is often confused in his comparisons (“Why do you all like Vegeta when he’s objectively worse than Bra?”) indicates he’s failed to understand what made Vegeta likable. We don’t like Vegeta because he was a jerk to everyone; we like Vegeta because he constantly failed and constantly kept trying, something that Salagir has never allowed Bra to go through. Also, we clearly understood everything about Vegeta because we saw just about everything that happened to Vegeta as it happened. With Bra, much of what would be essential to sympathizing with her character is revealed very, very late after the fact. Last of all, Vegeta was introduced as a villain and we expect villains to be jerks; Bra was introduced as a hero and got very few heroic qualities, while still getting very many jerk moments. We are a lot harder on jerk heroes than jerk villains because we expect heroes, surprisingly, to be heroic; that's why the Designated Hero trope exists. I went into this before but the story all but acknowledged Bra is squeaky-clean outside of her control issues (which aren’t her fault) and her pride/resentment (which is explicitly Vegito’s fault.) She isn't at fault going SS2 against Buu because Buu didn't absorb Broly, did he? She isn't at fault to risk U19 against Cold because she won, didn't she? Her mocking Goten, the brother she killed, is perfectly okay in-universe. Vegeta’s arrogance frequently cost him, and his general dickery made people not trust him (which caused problems, say, with Dende.) Bra has never suffered consequences for her personality, because in-universe there’s nothing wrong with her—a reflection how out-of-universe, Salagir sees nothing wrong with her. The Majin Rebellion was the perfect moment for Bra to finally lose and have her paradigms shifted. Instead, she wins. All those heroes working together and sacrificing themselves for the team... and she wins. And she enjoyed it. And she’s guiltless. And she’s stronger. And Vegito is wrong for even thinking she’s in any way to blame. That is Protagonist-Centered Morality at its finest. (Another good example is Vegito thanking Bra for going SS2 in space against his orders and almost killing him.) Why does anyone in U16 like Bra? When have we seen her do anything to show she cares for any of these people? She hasn’t had a single Pet the Dog moment in the entire comic; the closest she got was crying for Pan. Yet we are to assume Gotenks (including a Trunks that doesn’t even know her personally) readily takes her side--the person who killed half of him--against Vegito, his father. 5. Bra has demonstrated more unexplained and unforeshadowed powers (and knowledge) than anyone else in the comic, and almost every single one of them allowed her to defeat an opponent. In the case of knowing about Cell’s nucleus when she couldn’t possibly have known, this was likely done to clearly indicate how smart she was (because Gohan failed to spot or account for it.) After all, something similar was done with her simultaneously noticing both the Piccolos' beans and the mini Cells. 6. She not only knows Instant Transmission, but Instant Movement. She knows techniques nobody knows, which impress even Buu. I guarantee she will find a way to counter Gast's ability. It’s recently been implied she will end up superior to Vegito when she hits full strength. Read: she will be stronger than the two main characters of DBZ, at their max, COMBINED. She is crazy strong but has no time limit like Gotenks, a need to constantly eat senzus like Vegito, and didn’t have to absorb anyone (like Buu.) Recent retcons to her strength (along with how PL-scaling works in DBM) imply she will be instrumental defeating Vegito, if not the one to do it herself. 7. Extensive time was spent in Dragon Ball to show characters training. We’ve seen very little of Bra’s, bar some light exercises. We don’t know how or when she gained any of her techniques. Salagir will go to great lengths justifying her strength due to being Vegito’s daughter, but when asked why Pan isn’t also stronger than normal, he responds with what amounts to “Meh.” 8. In the novelization, during the fight with Cold, numerous spectators are in awe at her ki reserves, implying she has far greater endurance for someone at her level than normal. 9. May I direct you no further than the novelization’s take of the Bra vs. Cold fight. 10. Hmm... what color is associated with Bra? 11. Compare how much damage Bra gets with the amount of damage other people get. Even at her most damaged (vs. Cold), she still hasn’t been punched to chunks or had her eyes popped out. 12. Downplayed, but in the novelization, Uub (who’s in a relationship with U18 Bra) sees U16 Bra and thinks her muscular physique makes her look even hotter than U18 Bra. Ugh.13. Look no further than this latest chapter. Highlights include U18 Bra cheerfully explaining Bra’s virtues with Gohan lying dead or dying next to her. This is, of course, disregarding how much shilling Bra has received by multiple characters at other times. (Far more, certainly, than anyone in U18.) 14. Consider: Vegito going completely bonkers for the first time in his life, triggered by Bra. Consider: Gast specifically going out of his way to rescue Bra. Consider: Gotenks, played as a joke the entire comic, acting serious for the first time to explain why Bra is innocent and Vegito is not. Consider: U18 Bra switching on the happy smile. 15. Say hello to Bra and her double the amount of Goku’s screentime. She has more fights than anyone else in the comic, the longest fights, and the most wins. 16. See also: techniques, energy reserves, etc. 17. Much has been said of how Bra’s life was portrayed as fairly normal, if not idyllic, for at least eight years. Now the story is that she’s been abused, with Vegito refusing to let other family members help raise her, and that she’s lived in perpetual fear of her life for years. 18. Oh my, spot-on! 19. Vegito is abusive. Bulma is a non-entity. 20. Technically—Vegito, being part Vegeta, is the Prince of All Saiyans so Bra’s royalty, too. Not to mention she’s the daughter of the richest person on the planet. It’s not a huge deal, but hey. 21. Bra: I’m sorry I just killed everyone Literally everyone besides Vegito: It’s okay. It wasn’t your fault. Salagir likes giving Bra flaws that are actually strengths. She can be Majin'd, but this is actually a good thing because she broke free. She's "flawed" in that she killed Zangya, but this is actually a good thing because she tried, meaning she gets the satisfaction of Zangya dying and the satisfaction of getting praised by her dad anyway. 22. All the mean things Bra has done fall under this category. 23. Again, go read the Bra vs. Cold fight, where she is an “awe-inspiring” “graceful” “ballet-like” “savior” goddess. Meanwhile, Cold is described in the most unflattering adjectives possible. 24. Remember how Gast vs. Raichi started offscreen because Salagir wanted to keep focusing on Bra? Remember how Gohan vs. Cell, one of the most anticipated fights in the comic, had large parts of it occur off-screen, but Majin Bra got three whole chapters?Bra has gotten all the comic's longest fights. There were third-round fights against people will clear deeper emotional levels (like Goku vs. Frieza and Vegeta vs. Kakarot) which were over with in half a chapter. Salagir has never cut short a fight of Bra's. 25. Asura’s fascination with drawing and emphasizing parts of Bra’s body is well-known. 26. Bra, Amilova, Ancient Hanasia, and whatever the witch is called in Hemispheres, all tick off very similar boxes. If Salagir has a story with a male protagonist as visible as any of these four, I certainly haven't heard about it (and he probably hasn't gotten Gogeta or Asura to draw for it), so it seems to me he has a type. That definitely comes off as wish-fulfillment to me. “Vegeta was actually super evil for being capable of resisting Babidi yet still killing people. Sacrificing himself in no way atones for this.” Salagir made this point long before having Gotenks visibly spell it out... to justify Bra. 27. Salagir has gone on-record multiple times to justify Bra’s behavior or say people are too hard on her. He frequently attributes sexism to her haters, and as recently as yesterday's Twitch feed said there may be "Freudian" reasons behind people's hatred. 28. Salagir can’t control what his fans draw…but he can control what art he accepts, and Bra by far and large has more fanart accepted than any other character. She is also the only character in the main DBM story that Asura has drawn stripping. A lot of people see that as no big deal but it is a data point.
How many of these does there have to be before Bra qualifies? Five? Ten? Twenty? Is 28 still not enough? I don’t like using the Mary Sue Litmus test in this case because 1) many DBZ characters rank high on it anyway and 2) it doesn’t focus as much on the writing aspect of things, namely the character’s effect on the story. Does Bra add anything to Goku and Vegeta’s stories, or give depth to any other character? No—all other characters serve to help her. This is her story, which would've been okay (or at least better) if it was initially presented as her story. As it stands, I think the final verdict is safely that she is a Mary Sue, specifically a Jerk Sue.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Jan 31, 2021 19:58:17 GMT
I'm kind of curious what consequences did Vegeta really face for his actions because the only thing that comes to mind is the perfect cell situation which let's be fair a lot of people screwed up in regards to Cell obtaining perfection. If we mean losing to android 18 I don't see how that qualifies because nothing was going to change that particular outcome one way or another. It depends what you consider consequences. Some people consider if nothing permanent like death happens it doesn’t count. That has started causing a debate among fans of different works to argue any villain who reforms and ends up good doesn’t face consequences so their redemption doesn’t count and they get away with everything. Naturally that started another argument of people being accused of having a black and white morality where people have to stay one thing forever and any changes are impossible.
|
|
??????
|
Post by supergojita3 on Jan 31, 2021 23:44:34 GMT
I'm just going by the google definition here. So by the google definition, no she isn't. Where is your definition from? is it a verifiable source? is it anything considered official, or is it a fan site? . wikipedia would also be easily edited. These aren't just some rando people on the internet who said that is it? I'd still take tv tropes over just some people you spoke to who already had a bias. I also don't want personal anecdotes from your friends. tvtropes even adds a clause that says "There are subjectives, and then there are these. While you may believe a work fits here, and you might be right, people tend to have rather vocal, differing opinions about this subject. Please keep these off of the work's page." and it seems like you dismissed my arguments by moving the goal post. why don't we start by defining the mary sue, and not use jerk sue alternates, as you said mary sue specifically. jerk sue is defined as "The basis of this trope is the tendency of many Darker and Edgier writers to create a bitter, ill-spirited, confrontational, or downright mean character and still play them up as an ideal person, or just get away with being a bullying Jerkass." I got this one off of the tvtropes site specifically. this could apply to many characters. so this could apply to bra, but the mary sue one variant does not. So just straight up semantics then? I'm going by the definition of Mary Sue I mostly see used on basically every writing discussion, and again I straight up said she is two tickboxes short of fitting the definition perfectly. You just gonna completely ignore that then accuse me of dismissing your arguments? The list I gave is a pretty decent explanation of how the definition works. She's super special and unique in every way. Everyone is amazed by her powers, even her enemies. People who go against her are painted in a negative light. She never faces any consequences. People act OOC and retcons happen for her sake. She's allowed to pull fight-winning moves off-panel. She's the only one so far actually shown using those uber special techniques. Her SSJ2 is x5 stronger than anyone else's. The list goes on and on. You wanna say my definition is just colloquialism, sure, go ahead. But it is both widespread and close to the original (literally only 2 points away) that I consider it to be just as valid of a definition. No. It isn't from a biased source since this (and the main page) are the only pages where I see Bra being discussed at all. Mostly I see it being used when criticizing OCs You are once again just straight up ignoring what I said. I said Vegeta faces consequences. He doesn't just get called out. He gets portrayed as a villain. He gets the shit beaten out of him. He dies. He goes to hell. He gets tortured. And he still gets away with too much. Whereas anyone against Bra is portrayed as wrong and the closest thing to consequences she gets is a few sentences which are instantly forgotten so we can instead get more stuff trying to make us side with her. I used "Mary Sue" for multiple reasons: - She is about 99% a perfect match for the dictionary definition - She is a perfect match of the popular Mary Sue definition most people use in discussions. - She is closer to being a Mary Sue than the actual Mary Sue from U2, and that one is literally called a Mary Sue - Very few people know what a Jerk Sue is. The last time this debate happened, it had to be explained several times. - It's straight up clickbait since I wanted people to come in and vote, as well as share their viewpoint. It's why I tagged so many people. - I just like seeing the reaction of Bra's defense drones Your comparison with a cookie is terrible. It'd be more like arguing whether a hot dog is a sandwich. And don't think I don't see you trying to discredit my argument by comparing it to something stupid. By now you have proven that you have no right to complain about fallacies.What characters can it apply to? It doesn't apply to Vegeta at all and that's the only example you gave. Vegetto? He's already faced more consequences than Bra for doing far less, and hasn't really had any asspulls. Piccolo? Only if you think he's responsible for what his father did, and even then he'd tick way, way, way less boxes than Bra. Vegeta, Vegetto, and Piccolo combined would still fit the definition less than Bra does. This is ironic again, because I have called Zen Buu a Gary Stu before, and that sentiment seems to be common based on the discussions we see here and in the main page. Gast we know next to nothing about but I have also called his bullshit out, and being strong does not make someone a Gary Stu. Again, this is ironic. You sure love ignoring people's arguments. I have already pointed out that her """flaws""" were false all along, and now have been removed altogether. And you're ignoring stuff again. Imagine if Tenshinahan actually were like Bra: - After breaking Yamcha's leg, we get treated of a flashback to try to make him look less guilty. Same for every time he does something questionable. - He's way stronger than every canon character - He pulls out a Senzu off-panel to win against Goku in the tournament - Toriyama claims he always had the Senzus even though he didn't use them before when he had reason to - Characters keep acting OOC and retcons keep happening so he doesn't have to face consequences - His only flaws never impact him, and are magically fixed later. I don't think I need to keep going. This comparison is wrong on all levels. Now, I'm not sure if this one is canon or just a rumor that gets repeated a lot, but doesn't she have "double Saiyan" DNA/nature unlike all the other hybrids? That makes her different from all the others. She also goes berserk simply from being too strong, something which has literally never happened before. Gohan becoming cold and sadistic in SSJ2 is not the same as her going bananas and destroying everything, friend and foe alike. Yes. Vegeta does get away with too much but he isn't a Jerk Sue, and not even close to it. It has already been explained why several times. Stop ignoring it. Also, Vegeta's son doing something has literally nothing to do with Vegeta being a sue or not. So thorought this post you have ignored nearly everything I said, and accused me of fallacies while comitting them yourself. All of it over semantics, which were also born from ignoring what I said. Again, I posted the definitions from websites. you have not posted any sources. >I'm going by the definition of Mary Sue I mostly see used on basically every writing discussion from where? your friends in your basement? A citation of authenticity or something like tvtropes or google would work. >and again I straight up said she is two tickboxes short of fitting the definition perfectly. You just gonna completely ignore that then accuse me of dismissing your arguments? tickboxes from nowhere. So far, you haven't posted where these were from. and some of those tick boxes don't really amount to much. She has weird powers? thats like every db character. majin buu can turn someone into candy and absorb someone. in dbs zeno can erase several universes instantly. in the anime, buuhan was about to crush the universe himself. bra having some new techniques that borrow from gotenks ingenuity she didn't invent isn't really all that impressive when she is liek the 3rd strongest, and gast has shown a power that can beat her. >The list I gave is a pretty decent explanation of how the definition works. The list you made up. I provided a link and source. you have not. >Her SSJ2 is x5 stronger than anyone else's. um, you mean her multiplier? gonna need a citation on that. Her ssj2 is still 500x. same as gokus in dbm. ssj2 is a 10x increase from ssj1. >No. It isn't from a biased source since this (and the main page) are the only pages where I see Bra being discussed at all. Mostly I see it being used when criticizing OCs sure it is. you haven't posted a definition from a verified source, and keep using your own definition which was pulled from no where. Definist Fallacy (also known as: persuasive definition fallacy, redefinition) Description: Defining a term in such a way that makes one’s position much easier to defend. Logical Form: A has definition X. X is harmful to my argument. Therefore, A has definition Y. Example #1: Before we argue about the truth of creationism, let’s define creationism as, “The acceptance of a set of beliefs even more ridiculous than those of flat-earthers.” Example #2: Before we argue about the truth of creationism, let’s define evolution as, “Faith in a crackpot theory that is impossible to prove with certainty.” Explanation: It should be clear by the two examples who is defending what position. Both arguers are taking the opportunity to define a term as a way to take a cheap shot at the opponent. In some cases, they might actually hope their definition is accepted, which would make it very easy to defend, compared to the actual definition. Exception: When a definition used is really an accurate definition from credible sources, regardless of the damage it might do to a position. Tip: Do not accept definitions put forth by the opponent unless you researched your definition on your own, and agree. I got my definition from an unbiased source, and another as well. you put forth a false definition and claimed it to be true. At this point its like talking to a brick wall. I already refuted your point according to the definition from 2 sites. please provide another website that has some merit. >I said Vegeta faces consequences. He doesn't just get called out. He gets portrayed as a villain. He gets the shit beaten out of him. He dies. He goes to hell. He gets tortured. And he still gets away with too much. Whereas anyone against Bra is portrayed as wrong and the closest thing to consequences she gets is a few sentences which are instantly forgotten so we can instead get more stuff trying to make us side with her. you mean by freeza? he was punished for defying freeza himself, not for anything he did on earth or namek. If you kill a man in new york and kill a man in australia, the jail sentence in new york doesn't apply to the one in australia. >- She is a perfect match of the popular Mary Sue definition most people use in discussions. uh, so its the fallacy of appealing to popularity then? if 99% of people said the earth was flat, it'd still be wrong. so by that measure, even if people used the wrong definition of mary sue, its still wrong. >- It's straight up clickbait since I wanted people to come in and vote, as well as share their viewpoint. It's why I tagged so many people. >- I just like seeing the reaction of Bra's defense drones Thats actually not a point towards her being a mary sue. and case in point, I'm not defending her, so much as I'm correcting the definition. Lets see, a creators pet would work, and just being a vegeta knock off without the compelling back story so a blander version of vegeta is also true. its like omega shenron vs buu. sure buu is weaker, but he was better written than omega, who had some similar powers and abilities. and cell was already proto type buu. both were created in the OG canon by evil guys, both can absorb people at some point to get stronger, both can regenerate, and both can teleport later on too. Thats where I'm going with bra. Like sally wanted a female vegeta but didn't really make her as good as the real mccoy. from a writing standpoint. >What characters can it apply to? well theres several really. any villain until they are finally defeated. they usually have their way until they don't. freeza could survive in space, and had great power. and dbs made him have retarded potential. he was let loose finally in dbs and revived. now he operates with no consequences. majin buu killed like 70% of the population, and was allowed to be around earthlings after enough time passed to wipe their memories of him. he was let off the hook and he still has all his powers and is still really strong. cell jrs in dbs were retconned to on 17's island even though they tried to kill people. they were all let off the hook. piccolo was not only spared from death but given a senzu by goku. this was in db. even after all he did as demon king piccolo, and later as ma junior, he was allowed to be in kaios world because he saved 1 kid. I guess jr doesn't carry his fathers sins, but he was still quite evil trying to kill goku and imprisoning kami. he tortured goku and impaled him. And goku in dbs. I think that kinda speaks for itself. he's hardly chastised for almost wiping out all life in some universes. because he wants to fight strong guys. The zenos were goign to do that eventually, but he sped up the process. good thing 17 fixed his mistake. pretty much all the villains who were redeemed faced little consequences. I don't count dying as a consequence, as they all got rewarded and sent to kaios and heaven and what not. dying "should" be a consequence, but isn't. >This is ironic again, because I have called Zen Buu a Gary Stu before, and that sentiment seems to be common based on the discussions we see here and in the main page. So, is being a mary sue bad or not then? if it isn't, then its irrelevant. >I have already pointed out that her """flaws""" were false all along, and now have been removed altogether. most of the flaws are still flaws. pre majin, she couldn't control her ssj2, and killed goten and a whole solar system of people. she was prone to mind control from her evil side, among other things. that was a big flaw right there, and precipitated her fall as a slave to babadi. that is a HUGE flaw. >And you're ignoring stuff again. on the contrary, you ignored the genre exemption clause. db has all kinds of wacky powered up freaks. they all have crazy powers, and bras powers are less than anything the last main villain was able to pull off. She can't absorb people, she can't transform people, and in general she's like 3rd strongest in the tournament. lets see, vegetto, buu, brolly and maybe xxi's demon form. gast could use magic to 1 shot her, and she had a hard time with the u19 dude. in the world of db, she doesn't have anything special, and that crystal clone thing is really situational. if cell was a bit smarter he could have avoided it. >Now, I'm not sure if this one is canon or just a rumor that gets repeated a lot, but doesn't she have "double Saiyan" DNA/nature unlike all the other hybrids? correct. shes vegettos kid. it'd be weird for her not to have it. >She also goes berserk simply from being too strong, something which has literally never happened before. I believe this is taken from the ssj2 gohan vs cell thing, but worse. even gohan had issues with ssj2. a hybrid himself, bra is a double saiyan hybrid, so its worse. So, this is likely salagirs impression from a fresh ssj2 for gohan, even if you don't prescribe to it. >Yes. Vegeta does get away with too much but he isn't a Jerk Sue, and not even close to it. It has already been explained why several times. Stop ignoring it. Also, Vegeta's son doing something has literally nothing to do with Vegeta being a sue or not. I didn't say his son did it, I said he sucker punched his kid. Any way, I got this from tv tropes.com "With the way the term "Mary Sue" has mutated over time, a great many people just end up labeling any character overdosed with these traits as a Mary Sue regardless of her importance within the story (or because they just don't like the character). That's not necessarily true. Even if a character has quite a number of the traits described below, Mary-Sueness can still be averted by a good enough explanation for why they're there. Some female characters may seem over-powered and a bit "too good to be true" on paper, but when placed in context they can be well-developed, three-dimensional characters. It's when a trait exists more to make somebody stand out than to develop them as a character that it starts going into Mary Sue territory (unless it's Played for Laughs). Alternatively, you may feel as if the writer is frantically trying to justify a trait to themselves and the reader." so even if she does check off boxes you invented, it does not a mary sue make. So for example, its dragon ball "multiverse". its a side story that takes place within multiple universes. It'd be boring to focus on just the u18 cast. take dbs which had a multiverse concept but not quite. the 18 or whatever universes were teased in Battle of gods, and dropped almost immediately, with a few slim peeks at later. we got the goku and vegeta show, and the ratings in japan were poor, even compared to GT. this isn't necesarily why, mind you, but even compared to the more recent dbkai, the ratings for super were low. the lowest was goku vs jiren with a very low tally for viewings. yes yes, I know, crunchy roll and its cheapo server crashed. They didn't have a good enough server to hold the amount of people watching. this isn't an uncommon feat. James rolf had server crashes when he hosted cinemassacre on his own site before going to youtube. I like the idea of bra, and I can see why you don't. its not what you were expecting and you ant the u18 group more than what they are shown to do. and maybe more alternate world characters could get a chance to shine. Thats not unreasonable. I think this has more to do with that you guys don't like bra vs her being a mary sue. Gast and zenbuu are mary sues, are over powered and have shown themselves to be above bra as far as power or magical skill. but they get less screen time, and are generally well received. and well, bra is weaker in some ways to them, or both with buu. but she has more screen time. well, sally said she's getting her fight cut shorter than expected vs gast, and I'm down for that. sure I like bra, but I can see the virtue in not over saturating the manga with her any more than he already did, so kudos to him. another site that defines mary sue www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/"Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction." She's certainly not too perfect or perfect at all. She kinda sucks and made some sloppy mistakes while fighting, and someone who is perfect wouldn't fall under babadis spell. urban dictionarys number 1 definition, which isn't reputable still has a definition that doesn't really apply to bra. "A Mary Sue is a character who is so perfect that he or she warps the world around them to display their perfection. It seems as though nothing in this universe except Mary Sue is even real, and is instead a plot device to make Mary Sue seem flawless and loved. A Mary Sue can destroy a piece of writing or media, since the characters existence will often forcibly make the world and people around them defy logic to simply display how amazingly radiant they are. The term is meant to describe any and all characters that seemingly warp reality simply to display their perfection, but some people do use terms such as “Marty Sue” or “Gary Sue” as a male nickname for a Mary Sue. It’s also important to know that in an attempt to make a character seem less Sue-ish, authors will often give their Mary Sue a “flaw” that is actually just a stale trait in disguise. This has lead to many different sub genres of the Mary Sue, thigh all are just as boring and cliche as the original." I wouldn't say she warps reality. arale can do that, but maybe its more metaphorical than that, and even then, the worst people did was sabotage her murder. u19 phipsil called her out for skipping out on her promise to save u19, and according to salagir, she's going to be on thin ice with many universes for the whole majin thing. Granted she was under mind control, but she will still face scorn from the u19 group and possibly her own family. gohan was disapointed in her after being chopped in half, citing babadi was stronger than his upbringing. www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/these-women-coined-term-mary-sue-180972182/this article seems to be about the person who specifically coined the expression itself. and its from the smithsonian magazine. "While the original meaning of a Mary Sue referred to a stand-in character of any gender orientation, the reason Smith and Ferraro encountered more Mary Sues than Murray Sues when they were running Menagerie likely had more to do with who was writing in. Unlike the larger science fiction fanbase, which skewed male, both Smith and Ferraro remember that the “Star Trek” fandom they experienced was made up of mostly women. “Science fiction fandom, in general, was like 80 percent men,” Ferraro ballparks. “'Star Trek' fandom was the exact opposite; at least 75 percent women.” Later, cultural critics began to make the argument that Mary Sues opened up a gateway for writers, particularly women and members of underrepresented communities, to see themselves in extraordinary characters. “People have said [the Mary Sue characters] actually seem to be a stage in writing for many people,” Smith says. “It's a way of exercising who they are and what they can imagine themselves doing.” this seems to touch on the original meaning as simply being a self insert character. Thats the origin of it, or so it seems. "Naming the trope also allowed people to understand what they were doing when they set out to write a Mary Sue or Murray Sue character. “In terms of teaching writers a lesson, it was very useful in that people could say, well, that’s really a Mary Sue story. And then they could look at it and decide whether they wanted to change it,” says Ferraro. While both Smith and Ferraro actively worked to popularize the term within the “Star Trek” fan community, neither expected it to catch on the way it has. “I was absolutely blown out of the water when I Googled it the first time and went, oh, my god,” says Ferraro. Smith agrees, “I am surprised that it held on so long. Many fan words get tossed around and they live for a while and then they die.” But Mary Sue has withstood the test of time. Both articulate the surreal quality that comes with seeing a name they coined take on a life of its own. That includes the creeping sexism that's become associated with the term. "There were the people who would say anytime there was a female protagonist that’s a Mary Sue," Smith remembers. “It just developed in all sorts of ways." and you're pleased to get a call 40 years later from Smithsonian to talk about them.” I disagree that its inherently "sexist" and what not, but this touches on the initial definition of mary sue and how it become something it wasn't. Thats like what, 6 sites I sourced? care to post 1 source maybe?
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 1, 2021 17:26:10 GMT
I was called to review this thread by both sides, so I'll give my takes on this before taking any action:
It's clear this conversation is not being fruitful. But I think what both of you are having here is more of a problem of semantics, since you still both seem to think this character still causes problems/is bad writing. In my take, she is not so much of a Mary Sue as she is a plot tumor/creator's pet.
However here comes the problem I can't go too strict about book definitions about this. After all TVtropes is not a medical or scientific page, nor contains direct pages of a work. It's merely an observation/description of that; tropes, which can be quite ambiguous at time. For example, whereas TVtropes doesn't consider some other trivial factors, in my experience Mary Sue characters have an air of badass charisma which Bra clearly lacks, and the page doesn't even mention that. Would this really be invalid tho? After all these pages get updated relatively constantly where they add and remove points.
As long as people explain their rationales right and are respectful, this should be fine. If this is not possible, just hop off from the topic. My advice is not to focus on variable terms used on TVtropes 100% (although they're useful they're clearly not inalienable stuff) and focus instead on what's wrong with the character separately.
After all, even if Mary Sues are a cheap writing device, one on it doesn't automatically cause problems. Zen Buu is not really a problem for the story for example.
You're also both bordering on absolute thinking: Either she's 100% mary sue even if she misses some traits, or she's totally not one just because she lacks 2 or 3 aspects. Maybe it'd help if you worked with percentages?
|
|