Is U16 Bra a Mary Sue? (Round 2)

I do agree they botched her character, but I don't see how the "sue" definition fits. 

without her being an insert character, she doesn't fit that mold. 

For example, toriyama inserts his own character also called Tori-bot in the actual db manga.





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this is actually from dr slump, but you could actually make the case this is a mary sue due to it being AT inserting himself as a robot character. Bra is not an insert of salagir or anyone on the staff, but if it did turn out she was an insert character of someone, then she would be.

Now, the creators pet is as bad as the mary sue moniker, as you don't need this to be an insert character but the time and attention on the thing can be toxic and annoying. personally I'm glad the staff decided to tone down how much bra will be in the comic later, as over saturation of the character detracted from the enjoyment of the comic when the majin arc was over. they also made vegetto look dumb. maybe they were intending on vegetto being redeemed later, by cheering for his own daughter vs gast, and losing his shit when she lost, but we don't know the full story yet. maybe this was done to make her look like shit on purpose so she can hand the reigns over to goku, as that is kind of a db staple. goku finished the business in most of db, and 3/4 of dbz by beig absent until the end. If that was the case, then I guess salagir is falling back on the dbz trope of goku swooping in to save the day and reducing established characters of the arc to fodder some how.

though, the buu arc did have goku win with help.

>I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert

Thats what a mary sue is canonically considered by the creator of the term. the terms jerk sue, mary sue and other sue-esque terms would need to be self insert characters by default. The term creators pet is more apt, as it does not require the character to be an insert character. I've posted the origin of the term on this thread, and I actually voted "no, but just as bad" because I get what the spirit of the poll was getting at, but its technically an incorrect term. It'd be like using the phrase "the road not taken" to mean you took the better more rightous path as opposed to the easy way out, when its not meant to mean that at all. its been suggested, If I recall to mean the person simply took the other way because it was The entirety of "The Road Not Taken" is an extended metaphor in which the road "less traveled" symbolizes the path of nonconformity. The speaker, when trying to choose which road to take, looks for the road that seems less worn. it has nothing to do with virtues or bettering ones self. 

A creators pet is a character that to my knowledge is what bra is, a character hogging the spotlight and inserted more often than needed. The gast vs raichi fight for instance. the ginyu fight could have been  special for example.

Don't waste your time with him, he will just repeat arguments that were already dismissed elsewhere and win by tiring you over with awfully long and disconnected posts, he killed this thread by himself even, it's pointless arguing with someone that will ignore everything you say.

Déjà Vu.

yup. they're using an informal definition, which is fine. I use informal terms myself. maybe we could close on its not technically correct, but people use the term even if its not the true term froma  technical definition.

Its slang, which isn't really what words mean from a literal standpoint. Its short hand terminology that means something than what it actually means, but it gets the point across.

though on the contrary, no one has really pointed out a site that nails down their definition either, outside of 1 fan site. I posted an article from the smithsonian magazine and others.

An informal definition suits me well. It basically biols down to meaning the creators pet, even if they call it a mary sue. Or like some people might say "same difference".

There is also the issue of the forum owner informing me that some people aren't native english speakers, so they don't understand the subtle nuance of some of the idioms used. This is a common problem on here, as even the forum owner had issues with a  non english native speaker, so I'm willing to put up with the rude attitudes of some of the dissent on this thread, despite everything.

I already acknowledged the informal use of a definition. So while good eye to spot the use of gay, but does this apply to mary sue specifically?

Where on the internet outside of a non official writing sites like wikipedia does this term have this definition? Like I could go to a site that defines terms like gay and it would be in official documents like a dictionary, yet no one can point to a source to define mary sue without the site also conradicting its self.



The site some peopel were pointting to earlier also had many points against bra being a mary sue, so while the terms of english can change, you'd have to prove now this term did in fact change and its not the people using it incorrectly.


www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/

so while I can post this link and many others citing a self insert character, no one has posted proof of the term evolving in the way you are suggesting.

The phrase "for all intents and purposes" has been bastardized as "for all intensive purposes" online on face book and other social media platforms. this is simply incorrect.

So, while I'll admit that mary sue being used in an informal way is fine for what you are trying to get across, the "creators pet" "intensive purposes" is incorrect in every way. we don't evolve language based on stupidity, and that would be an example of "devolving" language because people didn't feel like using correct terminology.

I'm all for language evovling but so far I haven't seen any evidence it did outside 1 web site that has evidence the term doesn't mean that either, so the site contradicts itself because it is run by fans and not actual authors.

Now, the informal definition suits me fine, we simply just needed a term to get across that bra is salagirs pet project he wanted in there, and well, be it the creators pet or the informal use of mary sue thats fine in my opinion. after all, a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, and a creators pet by any other name is just as lame.


Also, the use of gay, much like mary sue is an informal definition. the word gay has been around since the 12th century and did not mean anything about being homosexual until the 1600's.

for language to evolve and not be used simply incorrectly, it really should need to be around for more than like 50 years. your example is seemingly inadequate. Tell you what, we'll let the term mary sue mean what it meant originally, for say 400 years like the word gay you used as an example, and in 400 years we can change it if you want to use a word that has had proper time to evolve as your example.

>obviously mary sue was meant to imply something self insert dind't already or else we would only use the word self-insert. or we would say BAD self insert.
Or you could use the term creators pet. we already have a word that means what you want to say. and we wouldn't say "insert character" when there is already a term for that. mary sue.

  For context, a creator's pet is a character that the writer usually adores or relates to personally and devotes an ever-increasing proportion of the story to, often despite vocal dislike from the audience. so even though the term creatos pet is what you mean, you can call it a mary sue even though its technically inaccurate. Like I said, a rose by any other name is just as sweet, and a creators pet by any other name is just as bad. 

I don't mind you guys calling her a mary sue at this point, because its like calling the cyborgs in dbz "androids". its technically wrong, but its easy to digest mentally for most fans who grew up with it. Calling bra a mary sue is just easier for you to digest mentally, so why not? same difference as the android/cyborg thing. or you can keep arguing with your head in the sand.

I don't think spopovitch had any real control. Or not the control most people have.

And yeah, I am glad you are smart enough unlike most people to cite the term creators pet, and I don't mind the use of mary sue either, its more a technical hurdle really.

I get the impression you voted more out of spite than a means to define the term, but at the end of the day bras not really my cup of tea any more. She was cool ( for me anyhow) but now she's like a less charismatic vegeta without the backstory to well, back up her resolve. which she has none.

Dabura was the most rebellious of the majins who weren't vegeta in canon. he defied babadis orders, but not in the way vegeta did. he was like "zomg, I gotta save babadi even if he thinks buu is his champion!" as opposed to vegetas "I refuse. I onlly wanna fight kakarot"

spopovitch was fighting to gather energy, but I get the impression he drew out the fight with videl for 2 reasons.

1-he had a beef with satan, and videl was 1 way to gert to him/

2-don't majins gather energy when inflicting damage? his attacks helped buu, even if slightly.

3-other?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say spopovitch had control of himself.

oh, you mean control in the "not a berserker" type of control.

I think bra was the only one who was like that, and thats because she was explicitly heinous pre majin anyway. we don't know anything about spopovitch. pre majin or anything really.

>I do not beleive she had no control of herself. It contradicts what we've seen.

Control being the word in contention here, she was more or less brain washed. dabura for example, when released of babadis control spat on him and took his kingdom back. we see in dbm canon that dabura had no control over himself on the sense that he could not serve his own interests. majin control was never about the slave having to be given orders to do everything. they have limited autonomy and usually follow orderes when given, and will sometimes over ride orders when it is in babadis best intentions.

Dabura for example knew buu was dangerous, so he had to stop him "for babadis safety".

bra sent him into space and left before he could relay orders to the contrary, this isn't defying him so much as she was too quick this instance.

>Also, I've been reading your posts and you seem really petty.

oh you mean by the part when I said you voted out of spite? poor wording on my part. to be frank your reasoning for voting that she is a mary sue was done seemingly out of emotion. this isn't an unreasonable response on your part and I apologize for the poor wording earlier.

>You do care more about semantics, even after they showed yout he original creator of the term said it's changed.

so this is more an issue of the word evolving, but not in the manner most people assume. The term mary sue involves a insert character as the prime defining trait, but they don't mention on any official site that it means anything but. with few exceptions.

Words evolve, but the term gay which was used before took 400 years to do so. its been like 50 years tops. so I made a joke about taking 400 years before we evolve the term. Thats more or less sarcasm.

Petty would be makiing a thread about the ring in the 23rd budokai and voting with sock puppet accounts in a failed attempt to defame someone. Some one tried that and they were mocked endlessly for it, and lost the little respect they had.

>On top of that, Bra really does check most of the list.

what list? I keep seeing people say this, and yet they don't point to a site that has a list of things that point these traits out, and the one they did had lists that contradict their data. so its ambiguous at best, and contrary to their belief at worst.

I simply asked for a source, and something that can't be tampered with by people like you or I, and no one did.


>Why are you so hell bent on flooding people with long ass posts? 

its not flooding so much as I'm detailing the answer. like If someone wanted to know what a character consisted of in terms of what they were ina anarrative sense, a protagonist, an antagonist, a hero, a anti-hero and such, there are ways to define such traits. I rattled off 6 sites that define a mary sue as a  self insert character and went out of my way to find a site that had definitively set the definition as just OP or somethign because I wanted the term mary sue to fit, but I found nothing.

At best, I found a site, 1 site that had contradictory data and it was fan edited for a while. and the check boxes were really lame when some people said stuff like "zenbuu gushed over her cool and awesome techniques!" he did no such thing. he scolded u16 as a whole for hiding their new techniques. 


in any case, I pretty much said as much I don't mind people calling her a mary sue anymore, because they are using an informal definition they decided on. its essentially colloquial usage. sure, its technically incorrect, but so what? it means what it means to you and thats all that counts. I get what you mean by it, and at the end of the day, its a matter of a rose smelling as sweet, even if by another name.



also, 4:40 this guy also suggests mary sue is an over used term. it has lost any and all meaning since then. This makes much sense.

holy shit thats actually not very long. its like the meme where some one goes "lol. too long didn't read". you have a very short attention span my dude.

if you had read it, you'd note I agreed with some of your points. I mean, if you're not going to take this seriously, I can't imagine the thought process you use for other things.

"had a baby. ugh. 18 years to raise this thing. see ya, thats way too much effort."