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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 4:39:39 GMT
Right, but that's why I pointed out that Vegeta likely doesn't know about Kibitokai. He barely knows Shin, briefly met Kibito (before he got killed by Dabura), briefly met Kibitokai when more urgent things had happened like the Earth being blown up and his family got murdered, probably didn't know that Kibito had been revived, never knew that Kibito and Shin had fused in the first place, likely doesn't care about them in any shape, form, or fashion regardless, and probably doesn't know that they used Namekian DBs to undo the potara fusion he likely didn't know about anyway, then sees Shin again much later in the Zamasu Arc. We, the audience, know this. Vegeta does not. I don't know man this seems like it makes Vegeta dumber to me and more like the old Vegeta who couldn't be bothered to learn people's names or appearances. I don't see how not knowing someone or not remembering someone equates to being dumber. Especially given how hectic the Buu Saga was with literally everything happening in two days and Vegeta never really interacting with the Kais again until the Zamasu arc, and most of said Buu Saga happening while Vegeta was dead and cut off from everyone.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on May 24, 2018 4:43:38 GMT
Vegeta should know the fusion isn't permanent by that point....Kibito and Shin used the Dragon Balls to undo their fusion.... If DBS Vegeta's reason for not using the earrings a second time it makes him seem dumber.... Right, but that's why I pointed out that Vegeta likely doesn't know about Kibitokai. He barely knows Shin, briefly met Kibito (before he got killed by Dabura), briefly met Kibitokai when more urgent things had happened like the Earth being blown up and his family got murdered, probably didn't know that Kibito had been revived, never knew that Kibito and Shin had fused in the first place, likely doesn't care about them in any shape, form, or fashion regardless, and probably doesn't know that they used Namekian DBs to undo the potara fusion he likely didn't know about anyway, then sees Shin again much later in the Zamasu Arc. We, the audience, know this. Vegeta does not. I'll probably edit later, but what about the Universe 6 Tournament? Isn't that when Shin and Kibito reveal they used the Namekian DB's to defuse?
Edit: Vegeta may not care for Kibito Kai, but he at least should've noticed that "Oh, the short Kai and Pink one are back. Hmph."
So yeah, pretty sure Vegeta could've put something together that "they're separated again"
Anime was worse bc he momentarily forgot what Potara fusion even was... or was that the Manga? Somewhere along the lines from Goku: "Vegeta, you fused once before, remember?"
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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 4:51:11 GMT
Right, but that's why I pointed out that Vegeta likely doesn't know about Kibitokai. He barely knows Shin, briefly met Kibito (before he got killed by Dabura), briefly met Kibitokai when more urgent things had happened like the Earth being blown up and his family got murdered, probably didn't know that Kibito had been revived, never knew that Kibito and Shin had fused in the first place, likely doesn't care about them in any shape, form, or fashion regardless, and probably doesn't know that they used Namekian DBs to undo the potara fusion he likely didn't know about anyway, then sees Shin again much later in the Zamasu Arc. We, the audience, know this. Vegeta does not. I'll probably edit later, but what about the Universe 6 Tournament? Isn't that when Shin and Kibito reveal they used the Namekian DB's to defuse?
Edit: Vegeta may not care for Kibito Kai, but he at least should've noticed that "Oh, the short Kai and Pink one are back. Hmph."
So yeah, pretty sure Vegeta could've put something together that "they're separated again"
Anime was worse bc he momentarily forgot what Potara fusion even was... or was that the Manga? Somewhere along the lines from Goku: "Vegeta, you fused once before, remember?"
Again, that would imply that he knows they were potara fused in the first place. Vegeta was dead by the time Kibito was revived, and Kibitokai had already become a thing by the time he was brought back to help against Buuhan.
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Post by Son Pan on May 24, 2018 4:55:14 GMT
I don't know man this seems like it makes Vegeta dumber to me and more like the old Vegeta who couldn't be bothered to learn people's names or appearances. I don't see how not knowing someone or not remembering someone equates to being dumber. Especially given how hectic the Buu Saga was with literally everything happening in two days and Vegeta never really interacting with the Kais again until the Zamasu arc, and most of said Buu Saga happening while Vegeta was dead and cut off from everyone. You are saying he doesn't know Kibito was revived though, which he should since he came up with the plan to revive everyone who wasn't really evil. Supreme Kai while having the same face had a bulkier body and looked similar to Kibito. I mean I guess I don't buy Vegeta doesn't remember Kibito. He was interested in them I think when they showed up at the tournament or at least enough to note their appearance. I could see this argument more if it was say the Great Namek Elder, since Vegeta saw that guy once for like a few seconds. It just seemed like the manga artist and Toriyama forget that little detail than Vegeta not recalling them.
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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 5:01:09 GMT
I don't see how not knowing someone or not remembering someone equates to being dumber. Especially given how hectic the Buu Saga was with literally everything happening in two days and Vegeta never really interacting with the Kais again until the Zamasu arc, and most of said Buu Saga happening while Vegeta was dead and cut off from everyone. You are saying he doesn't know Kibito was revived though, which he should since he came up with the plan to revive everyone who wasn't really evil. Supreme Kai while having the same face had a bulkier body and looked similar to Kibito. I mean I guess I don't buy Vegeta doesn't remember Kibito. He was interested in them I think when they showed up at the tournament or at least enough to note their appearance. I could see this argument more if it was say the Great Namek Elder, since Vegeta saw that guy once for like a few seconds. It just seemed like the manga artist and Toriyama forget that little detail than Vegeta not recalling them. Right, because Vegeta sees Kibito only twice. Once before he gets blasted by Dabura, and then he never sees Kibito again until they pop up for the U6 Tournament in that handy scan that The Retro Kakarotto just provided. Naturally he would expect to see Kibito, since as you yourself pointed out he came up with the plan to revive everyone! The fact that Kibito was revived BEFORE Vegeta himself was brought back for 24 hours to fight Buuhan wouldn't be something he would be privy to, and the potara fusion to make Kibitokai also happened while he was a bodyless soul. Also, while true that Kibitokai does have all the physical hallmarks you describe, keep in mind that DB is a world of transformations. He could very well have assumed that this was just "another form" for Shin, or just some other Kai entirely. It's not like the two ever stopped to chat to each other about mundane things like names.
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Post by Son Pan on May 24, 2018 5:11:02 GMT
You are saying he doesn't know Kibito was revived though, which he should since he came up with the plan to revive everyone who wasn't really evil. Supreme Kai while having the same face had a bulkier body and looked similar to Kibito. I mean I guess I don't buy Vegeta doesn't remember Kibito. He was interested in them I think when they showed up at the tournament or at least enough to note their appearance. I could see this argument more if it was say the Great Namek Elder, since Vegeta saw that guy once for like a few seconds. It just seemed like the manga artist and Toriyama forget that little detail than Vegeta not recalling them. Right, because Vegeta sees Kibito only twice. Once before he gets blasted by Dabura, and then he never sees Kibito again until they pop up for the U6 Tournament in that handy scan that The Retro Kakarotto just provided. Naturally he would expect to see Kibito, since as you yourself pointed out he came up with the plan to revive everyone! The fact that Kibito was revived BEFORE Vegeta himself was brought back for 24 hours to fight Buuhan wouldn't be something he would be privy to, and the potara fusion to make Kibitokai also happened while he was a bodyless soul. Also, while true that Kibitokai does have all the physical hallmarks you describe, keep in mind that DB is a world of transformations. He could very well have assumed that this was just "another form" for Shin, or just some other Kai entirely. It's not like the two ever stopped to chat to each other about mundane things like names. Yes, but Vegeta would notice Kibito wasn't with Supreme Kai after the battle with Kid Buu. I mean Supreme Kai brought Goku and Vegeta home when everything was said and done and still not Kibito. Vegeta knew his name. I just find it hard to believe Vegeta didn't know about potara fusion at all. This is a stupid argument on a really minor thing the Super manga did over something that comes down to personal preference on if Vegeta characterization is better than DBS or DBM.
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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 5:20:36 GMT
Right, because Vegeta sees Kibito only twice. Once before he gets blasted by Dabura, and then he never sees Kibito again until they pop up for the U6 Tournament in that handy scan that The Retro Kakarotto just provided. Naturally he would expect to see Kibito, since as you yourself pointed out he came up with the plan to revive everyone! The fact that Kibito was revived BEFORE Vegeta himself was brought back for 24 hours to fight Buuhan wouldn't be something he would be privy to, and the potara fusion to make Kibitokai also happened while he was a bodyless soul. Also, while true that Kibitokai does have all the physical hallmarks you describe, keep in mind that DB is a world of transformations. He could very well have assumed that this was just "another form" for Shin, or just some other Kai entirely. It's not like the two ever stopped to chat to each other about mundane things like names. Yes, but Vegeta would notice Kibito wasn't with Supreme Kai after the battle with Kid Buu. I mean Supreme Kai brought Goku and Vegeta home when everything was said and done and still not Kibito. Vegeta knew his name. I just find it hard to believe Vegeta didn't know about potara fusion at all. This is a stupid argument on a really minor thing the Super manga did over something that comes down to personal preference on if Vegeta characterization is better than DBS or DBM. LOL, I don't even think either one is better in the case of Vegeta. I've simply been arguing they're equal. Overall I think DBM has handled characters better.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 6:18:55 GMT
He doesn't resent Goku nearly as much as he did before with Buuhan, he just didn't want to cease existing entirely, much like what happens with U16 Vegito where he just becomes a new person entirely and Goku/Vegeta cease to exist. He also doesn't know about Kibitokai probably since he doesn't care for him at all. The instant he learns that it's only temporary he's immediately down for it and he's the one who suggests to fuse after initially saying no. By contrast to SS4 Gogeta clowning around, SSB Vegito was legitimately trying to end the fight as quickly as he could, he just wasn't able to clinch it before the fusion wore off earlier than expected. So I'd say going off of maturity ultimately Super wins out over GT just by comparing SSB Vegito to SS4 Gogeta. In both GT and Super, Vegeta is perfectly okay with a temporary fusion and this reflects in both series. I agree SSJB Vegetto was more serious than SSJ4 Gogeta but that shouldn't discredit Vegeta's maturity of being the one to offer to fuse. In the Buu saga, he still fused when he found out it was permanent because he understood they would've been killed/absorbed by Buu had they fought on their own. Merged Zamasu was immortal and stronger than them individually so Vegeta should've once again realized that fusion was their only option. What would've happened if the Potara earrings weren't retconned to be temporary for mortals? Would Vegeta have chosen to die against Zamasu instead of accepting to use them? It's unlikely so he still would've been forced to fuse so it could've shown his development since their first time fusing if he was more willing to accept it or even offer it himself. They are similar and I agree it would've been more fitting for Vegeta to accept powering up but I think they were different circumstances. In DBS, they were the last line of defense against Merged Zamasu but they still tried to fight on their own before accepting to work together and fuse. In DBM, they were immediately willing to work together to form a shield without either one running off on their own to fight Zen Buu. They knew they didn't stand a chance from the beginning so I believe the purpose of the shield was to protect themselves long enough until Vegetto returned. True it would've had to be Toriyama's decision since it appeared in both. Unfortunately it doesn't make it any less bad. To rephrase that comment: I can't wrap my head around how ANY author could consider this good writing. I'm no writer but I believe the basics of character development involve them learning from their past experience and not retreading old ground. If the plan to have the character basically relearn the same lesson then I can't understand the purpose behind having them forget it in the first place. It wasn't mentioned in the manga but I remembered Toriyama's design[/quote] notes for Broly he said that the reason Broly doesn't wear the battle armor is because he never worked for Freeza's army. Broly isn't anime-only but Toriyama's note about the Saiyan armor being issued by Freeza might apply to his manga. I felt Vegeta abandoning the armor reflects his acceptance of his new life on Earth. He's still a proud Saiyan but doesn't want the armor because it's associated with Freeza's army and the oppressed Saiyans it ruled over. If I were to see both series without knowing when DBS or GT took place, I would assume GT Vegeta was older and based on how he seems more comfortable living on Earth and fighting without his armor. Another similar scene that could reflect the age difference: In DBS Vegeta went on a trip with Trunks and Bulma and spent the whole time thinking about Goku while in GT he took Bra shopping and never brought up Goku! He wasn't really having fun but it looked like he enjoyed spending time with his daughter.
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Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 6:35:03 GMT
I agree SSJB Vegetto was more serious than SSJ4 Gogeta but that shouldn't discredit Vegeta's maturity of being the one to offer to fuse. Absolutely correct! It shouldn't discredit it and I don't discredit it! He probably would've given in and fused anyway. In much the same way, I see U18 Vegeta eventually giving in and using his full power against Zen Buu if Gast or Vegito or someone else hadn't stepped up to the plate. I'm not so sure about that. Vegeta was quite dismissive of Buu. To me the statement literally reads like it sounds, he's saving his strength for Goku, not some slime they'd beaten years ago. It'd be like if they were facing a bunch of Saibamen and Yamcha is like "OH NOOOOOOO. VEGETA! QUICK! GO SUPER SAIYAN!" and Vegeta is all "Are you joking? Waste the legendary power of the Super Saiyan on some PLANTS?!" He's working as a team with the other members of U18, yes, but that's not new for Vegeta. He's been doing that since Frieza (albeit more evilly). See, I think it could also be interpreted a different way. Yes, the armor was made by Frieza's organization, and perhaps that OLD armor might signify those times, but now he's wearing NEW armor! Armor forged by his wife no less! A literal symbol of his new life, built with love and care by someone who loves and cares for him! A memento he can carry into battle and proudly show off to his enemies! A tie to his past brought together with his life in the present, and just like how the armor has since evolved to a newer design, so too has he evolved as a person!
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2018 6:56:08 GMT
He probably would've given in and fused anyway. In much the same way, I see U18 Vegeta eventually giving in and using his full power against Zen Buu if Gast or Vegito or someone else hadn't stepped up to the plate. I agree Vegeta would've had to use his full power had Gast not intervened but I really don't think they were the same circumstances. Zen Buu wasn't trying to kill anyone and only subdue them. U18’s goal was to hold up the shield but if it was starting to break they could simply power-up on the spot rather than have to leave the battlefield to put on the earrings. I'm comparing DBS Vegeta to DBZ Vegeta in a nearly identical situation before his final development in the series.
Buuhan: Nigh-immortal and much stronger than them combined. Vegeta quickly fuses with Goku even after being told it’s permanent because he knew he didn’t stand a chance on his own. Merged Zamasu: Immortal and stronger than them combined. Vegeta refuses to use Potara and but eventually agrees after getting beaten up and learning it was now temporary. Since Potara fusion was retconned, fans still got to see Goku and Vegeta fight Merged Zamasu on their own. Having them immediately fuse after Zamasu would’ve had the same conclusion but would’ve saved time and had Vegeta’s characterization more consistent with the last time he was in the same situation. Working as a team is also one of the differences I noticed and I agree that shouldn’t be new for Vegeta because he learned that before in the series. I was pointing it out because the concept of Goku and Vegeta working together in DBS is treated like some new challenge they have to overcome. Their battle against Kid Buu should've been enough to teach them rather than having them repeat the same mistake multiple times in order to relearn the same lesson. This isn't really unique to DBM and I've seen this in most sequel fanfics. It seems like most of these authors came to the conclusion that Goku and Vegeta learned that lesson already so they should be more willing to work together without needing to almost get killed first or Vegeta running off claiming he was going to defeat the enemy single-handedly. I thought they were in-character in BoG for a post-Buu saga story and I only started to feel something was off beginning in RoF. That was when I wondered that maybe fan service and going with what they thought would be most popular with fans was a bigger priority than anything else. It felt like Vegeta occasionally fluctuated between his Cell/beginning of Buu saga and Post-Buu saga characterization. That could also be why he kept his armor because they felt it was too popular of a look for him to abandon. I wouldn't really have to consider this being a factor if DBS wasn't the only DBZ sequel I could recall that tries to "develop" them by having forget some of the lessons they've learned before and teach them again.
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Post by Son Pan on May 26, 2018 8:50:33 GMT
I'm two chapters behind, but it doesn't really sound like I've missed much. Ironically enough it sounds like manga will rush this arc, while the chief complaint I saw from the anime arc was it felt entirely too padded. A team of ten might have been too ambitious. It is cool that Toriyama brought back 17 and made him stand out and be a non-Saiyan who can actually rival Goku and Vegeta to an extent, but I don't get why Piccolo is still left so far behind. If we're not using a hardcore power scale anymore where the Saiyans are just too far ahead for everyone else than it seems like Piccolo should have closed the gap and been up there too. I'm not really understanding what is going on with Dragon Ball anymore. Will the supporting cast come back into play and be strong enough to help again or is it going to be the same as before with the Saiyans just out of reach for them to catch up? If it is the former then I just wish all the Z-fighters got generic plot power up device to push them closer to Goku and Vegeta's levels and buffed up everyone else in the other universes to make everything closer to classic pre-space and alien DB era.
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Post by Axalon on May 26, 2018 17:02:53 GMT
I agree Vegeta would've had to use his full power had Gast not intervened but I really don't think they were the same circumstances. Zen Buu wasn't trying to kill anyone and only subdue them. U18’s goal was to hold up the shield but if it was starting to break they could simply power-up on the spot rather than have to leave the battlefield to put on the earrings. I'm comparing DBS Vegeta to DBZ Vegeta in a nearly identical situation before his final development in the series. Buuhan: Nigh-immortal and much stronger than them combined. Vegeta quickly fuses with Goku even after being told it’s permanent because he knew he didn’t stand a chance on his own. Merged Zamasu: Immortal and stronger than them combined. Vegeta refuses to use Potara and but eventually agrees after getting beaten up and learning it was now temporary. Since Potara fusion was retconned, fans still got to see Goku and Vegeta fight Merged Zamasu on their own. Having them immediately fuse after Zamasu would’ve had the same conclusion but would’ve saved time and had Vegeta’s characterization more consistent with the last time he was in the same situation. I disagree, because there's another moment between Buuhan and Merged Zamasu. Kid Buu.Kid Buu was also too much for Goku or Vegeta to handle alone yet they still refused to fuse. If we're talking about being consistent with the last time they were in the same situation then Vegeta IS being consistent! Kid Buu was weaker than Buuhan by leaps and bounds, but ultimately still too much for either one of them. Despite this, they still end up winning. So now Goku and Vegeta find themselves in the same situation again. Possibility of fusion against a superior foe, but they decide to go in and fight anyway, because they're Saiyans and thus they're idiots. But also because the dynamic was more similar to Kid Buu than it was to Buuhan. The theory going in was that Goku, if he tried really, really hard, could obliterate Kid Buu with enough concentrated SS3 power. This was out of the question with Super Buu or Buuhan. Even just Super Buu was "suicide" even if they had worked together as a team. The catch of course was that Goku didn't realize just how badly SS3 interacted with his now-living body, so he couldn't muster the energy. At some point during the fight, Goku regrets not fusing again. Skipping ahead to Merged Zamasu and we see this creep up again. They fight individually, and eventually they end up fusing into Vegito. Much like Kid Buu before him, Merged Zamasu had pushed them to a point where they regretted their earlier hastiness, only this time they hadn't crushed the earrings so they could still pull the fusion off. Vegeta finding out they were temporary probably accelerated the process a bit, but ultimately I don't think it's arguable that they wouldn't have fused at all. To keep the Kid Buu parallels going, Goku once again thinks he has a chance if he concentrates all of his Mastered SSB power to win in one shot...and he damn near succeeds in doing so. It was only Zamasu's taking of a hostage that stopped Goku's out-of-nowhere-still-not-explained HAKAI. Clearly, they weren't feeling the same urgency they were with Merged Zamasu as they did against Buu, though Zamasu did eventually drive them to reach that point, much like Kid Buu was driving Goku to reach that same point in their battle. In terms of scale, Buuhan was far, far beyond the reach of Buu Saga Goku/Vegeta compared to Merged Zamasu over DBS Goku/Vegeta, and Goku almost vaporizing Merged Zamasu singlehandedly is proof of this. This couldn't have been done against Buuhan. It just simply couldn't. The gap between Goku and Buuhan was too great. Vegito was their ONLY option against such a foe, which was not the case with Zamasu--though Vegito was certainly the second easiest option they had after the Zen-Oh button. I agree! Which is why I think it's silly in both DBS and DBM! Fan-service IS something they're going after (Vegito appearing at all was fanservice from Toyotaro after all), but that isn't just a DBS thing. One need only take one glance at Broly in DBM to also see abundant fanservice as well. But I don't think Vegeta showing some pride suddenly means he's regressed all the way back to the Cell/early Buu saga. Vegeta's a prideful person. That's just who he is. He is Pride, The Character. He doesn't just lose all his pride because he admits Goku is better than he is a couple of times. Yes he admits that Goku is superior to him...but he NEVER tells Goku that to his face. EVER. The one time he said it directly in front of Goku was when he was overjoyed that he thought Goku was a Super Saiyan (not quite, but soon) and that the Saiyans would get revenge on Frieza. Afterwards, when he too has become the Legend? Hah! Even in DBS when he admits it again it's off to the side to his son, and the only hint Goku even gets about it is when Trunks says that Vegeta told him to heal Goku and not himself. I think it's perfectly natural for him to puff himself up and at the same time, in more quieter moments, come to grips and realize Goku has surpassed him once again, or that he still has a long way to go before being on par with Beerus. I think it's just his defining character outfit, nothing more than that. Piccolo has his white cape/turban combo, and he's had it for FOREVER. Despite MASSIVE character progression, one of the best in the franchise, Piccolo STILL looks the same as he's always looked. Why? Because that's his look. Much like Piccolo has "his look", Vegeta has one as well--and it's in Saiyan Battle Armor. Oh sure, he may occasionally rock a leather jacket or a pink BADMAN shirt, or be forced to not wear the armor when he competes in tournaments, but that's Vegeta's thing. He just rocks the Saiyan Battle Armor, just like Piccolo rocks the white cape and turban.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 4:28:43 GMT
Kid Buu was also too much for Goku or Vegeta to handle alone yet they still refused to fuse. If we're talking about being consistent with the last time they were in the same situation then Vegeta IS being consistent! Kid Buu was weaker than Buuhan by leaps and bounds, but ultimately still too much for either one of them. Despite this, they still end up winning. So now Goku and Vegeta find themselves in the same situation again. Possibility of fusion against a superior foe, but they decide to go in and fight anyway, because they're Saiyans and thus they're idiots. But also because the dynamic was more similar to Kid Buu than it was to Buuhan. They underestimated Kid Buu because they weren't sure how powerful he would be after removing all the people he absorbed. SSJR Goku Black was comparable to them in SSJB so they should've known that fusion would've made him stronger and gain Zamasu's immortality. If they had fused against Kid Buu, they would've killed him as Vegetto and Vegeta wouldn't have had his realization about Goku. If they initially had fused against Zamasu, nothing would have changed other than less time being wasted on them learning that same lesson. We shouldn't have to explain it by pointing out that they made the same mistake before because they shouldn't be making it at this point. Well there's always some fan service in a fanfic. The difference is that fanfics are free so there's really no incentive to do what they think would be most popular and they include what they think would be fun to see. I'm referring to the "fan service" that involves exaggerating a character's more popular traits regardless if they make sense at that point in the story. That's why I pointed out how in most fanfics I've seen don't have Goku and Vegeta keep having to relearn the same lesson over and over again. Having them argue over who gets to defeat the villain or Vegeta underestimating them running off on his own is something they've already learned from already in the original story. This is what is being argued and not simply Vegeta's pride. In DBS, it seemed like they had to learn it again in every saga besides BoG and the Champa saga. Perhaps they feel that having them develop and retain this lesson wouldn't be as appealing to the fans. In a series with self-improvement being such a major theme, that's the only explanation I could think of. For example, Vegeta was claiming he would be the one to defeat Jiren on his own after seeing Goku fail with Kaiokenx20 and the initial Ultra Instinct. Vegeta had always been willing to admit when Goku was stronger than him with a higher form. They ended up having to work together against Jiren but that was the obvious outcome because we've already seen this happen before. I don't think that's really the same thing though. Piccolo chose that outfit from the beginning and it wouldn't really hold any significance if he changed it. Vegeta choosing to no longer wear his armor in GT and other DB stories is meant to show how he's grown comfortable with his life on Earth. In DBS, they gave him new armor that at least strayed away from the Freeza army design during the RoF and Champa sagas. For some reason, they decided to bring back the Cell saga armor again after that. I can't think of a reason why other than the new armor ending up not being as popular.
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Post by Son Pan on May 28, 2018 8:23:49 GMT
So mangastream uploaded all of the Super manga chapters suddenly. I wonder what is going on. I thought they stopped translating the series, but it seems they just slowed down for a reason.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jun 19, 2018 21:52:13 GMT
Not sure if anyone still cares about it given how passé and antiquated talking about the ToP feels now (likely due to its filler-arc, unnoteworthy nature). It seems Golden Freeza makes its first appearance. Berserker Kale also seems to look slim but with all white eyes, and seems to be pwning golden freeza: EDIT: Full rough scans are already released, but not translated. Kale becomes even more buffed and manages to start harming SSJBlue Goku. I think this is good because she's already established as more of a threat by herself and her legendary status (much like Broly in DBM) thus there will be no need to make Kaulifla or Kabba get to SSJ2. And of course, this means no need for Kefla (hoorray!)
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 20, 2018 5:13:25 GMT
Freeza is not going to take getting harmed by a Super Saiyan well. I have to admit the art of Kale man handling Golden Freeza looks good. I wonder how else the chapter will shape up.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Jun 20, 2018 6:24:34 GMT
Freeza is not going to take getting harmed by a Super Saiyan well. I have to admit the art of Kale man handling Golden Freeza looks good. I wonder how else the chapter will shape up. That's right Frieza, you're not dealing with the average Super Saiyan anymore.
Nah I'm not gonna lie, the only thing good imo about the Manga's ToP thus far (and that I can remember) was that it wasn't centered on U7's "Who's next for elimination?" shtick like the anime made it out to be.
Other than that, wonder if Manga-Frieza is gonna refer to the Golden Form "last time I used this against you two Saiyans" or not. In the cocoon flashback, he did see Vegeta and Goku killing him in what looked like a RoF Manga equivalent... or it could be another mental simulation he went through in first person perspective.
This better be the turning point, what is this, two, three chapters in and already we've had instances the Anime did something better. [Notably Hit vs Jiren]
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 2:17:21 GMT
Damn, I was hoping Kale and Caulifa would be eliminated in one chapter! I guess Kale is less of a Broly ripoff here but she's already SSJB tier with little to no training?! You know something isn't right when Freeza's four months of training look less drastic of a power-up in comparison. I hope we don't get Kefla and they're both eliminated next chapter!
Not much else to say about this chapter. I think there are 35 contestants left now. I wonder if Toyotaro intends to finish the saga before the release of the movie in December? He only has five chapters left before then.
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Post by Azoth on Jun 21, 2018 14:49:41 GMT
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Post by Ashanark on Jun 21, 2018 16:55:34 GMT
This chapter made me appreciate something about DBM: its spacing.
The page-by-page release schedule really makes one- or few-panel pages a pain at the time we get them, but in hindsight there are some moments that just really deserve the room: The increased size helps make DBM feel big. Other than the final moments of the Bra vs. Cold fight (with the goo clones and stuff), DBM generally feels uncluttered as well. Look again at the middle panel of that Gast one: the increased space creates the effect of suddenly stopped motion. The DBS manga can't do stuff like this, since it tends to have 7-8 panels a page. We've discussed in the past how Toyotaro tends to not have as dynamic of panels as Toriyama and DBM. Now and then he'll have one that I like, but it's so small compared to the rest of the action on the page that much of the effect is lost. For example, here are some moments I thought were good: This is by far the most complex panel of its page, yet it's not the largest. What is both a nice angle and a nice image (Kale repeatedly smashing Frieza into the ground) is cluttered and easy to overlook. This easily could've been its own half-pager. This is a very cool image: Frieza shooting Caulifla up into the air, and as she falls shooting her again and again to keep her airborne. All this is squeezed into half a page. Really, these four panels should've been increased in size to fit one page, in my opinion. This is probably my favorite panel of the chapter. Toyotaro, like I've said before, has pretty straightforward panels, but while we've likely seen this pose before in other media, it's from an unusual angle and the way Caulifla's face is done really sells determination. But even if I'd read this from a physical copy, my eye would probably skip over this panel naturally simply because of its size and where it's placed on the page. On the whole, I think this chapter could've done with less exposition and fewer closeups of Kale's face, personally. As for the actual story content of the chapter...this one focused on Frieza, and he certainly got the best moments. I think general consensus of the anime was that 17 and Frieza probably had the best overall showing in the ToP, and it's no different for the manga. Frieza kicking Goku out of the fight was a good one... Using Caulifla as his own reusable clay pigeon was also great, like I said earlier. The only real downside to Frieza's scenes was Beerus and East Kai saying "Why can't he and Goku just get along?" I don't think that's a good sign for Frieza. Either an absolute garbage redemption or else serious Coolness Decay is inevitable once that happens. As for the girls... A common fan theory is that the U6 Saiyans are meant to reflect the U7 Saiyans: Cabba is Vegeta, Caulifla is Goku, Kale is obviously Broly. This is mainly based, I think, on Cabba wearing armor and having a slightly similar hairstyle to Vegeta, while Caulifla's overall fight-lust mirrors Goku. Going by this, Kale (Broly's) devotion to Caulifla (Kakarot) and negative focus on Cabba (Vegeta) is, I suppose, a "clever" inversion. I disagree and think this is basically fans trying to make connections in order to give some much-needed depth to these characters. Cabba's personality has very few parallels to Vegeta's. In being the young, principled Saiyan trying to prove himself, he's actually most similar to Gohan--whose hair, I might add, Cabba's resembles far more than Vegeta's. Caulifla also has basically zero in common with Goku besides the desire to fight. (More on her later.) As for Kale...her connection to Broly is actually a weakness in her case. Copying a character who's already straddling the border between awesome and lameness-from-overexposure is a dangerous bet. I mean, really--has anyone ever been impressed with a OC who's a clone of, say, Sephiroth? I sure wasn't when Advent Children did it three times. Instead, what we get are two new female characters who are rather one-note. The manga has downplayed Caulifla's negative traits by generally reducing the bullcrap (but who knows, there's still plenty of time for her to pull SS2 out of nowhere) but has still failed to make her a character who is in any way interesting. Yes, she likes to fight--so do Goku and Vegeta. But those guys have plenty of other qualities and experiences to help flesh them out. Caulifla, on the other hand, is a self-styled "prodigy." After the word "canon," few words make me angrier than "prodigy," since it's often shorthand for "I didn't actually want to show this character growing as a person, so I just gave them everything from the get-go." Don't get me wrong: prodigies serve their purpose in fiction, but Caulifla doesn't come off as a well-considered prodigy character. She's more of a we-need-a-female-Saiyan-so-snap-to-it prodigy character. That's kind of it. Oh, and she also wears a tube top, because Saiyan midriff and half an inch of cleavage, man!Kale had the bones of good character moments going on: stealthily attacking Frieza so Caulifla thinks she's beating him fairly and therefore keeps her mental image that she's the strongest Saiyan. There's actually promise there! Sadly, it gets swallowed up in Broly time. Like I've said in previous posts, these thoughts aren't really criticisms of Toyotaro, just pointing out the overall ill-considered nature of the ToP and DBS in general. Especially taking into account how Hit jobbed to Jiren to give the girls a chance to shine, they really should've been better characters. The combat in this chapter was generally straightforward punch-punch-punch but it was otherwise a good read. The big question now is whether or not we'll see Kefla in later chapters. I hope not...
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