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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 20:30:02 GMT
We have a thread for the anime so might as well have one for the manga! Here's a link to read the manga if you haven't had a chance yet. The most recent chapter #17 has leaked but not yet translated. Pros of the manga vs the anime: +Better pacing in my opinion. +Shorter but more entertaining fights. +Consistent artwork . +Goku isn't as stupid and more like his portrayal in DBZ. +Skipped RoF. -Doesn't include some of the funny slice of life filler from the anime like SSJ Hercule and Piccolo taking care of Pan. It skips all of Toei's filler so I guess this is a small sacrifice. He does manage to include some fun scenes like the Go-kart race in the recent chapter. I still enjoy the anime but I feel like I look forward to the manga more. The four chapters of the Goku Black saga so far covered the same content as the first nine episodes of the anime! The anime's pacing is better than it was during the filler of DBZ but this saga feels like it drags on a bit.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 20, 2016 21:29:57 GMT
Cool. I follow the manga, but the anime. So far I've liked the Black arc. I can see why so many people are raving about it. I didn't expect Trunks to have pushed his SS2 to match Goku's SS3 form. He really lived up to his potential here. It makes his losing to Black more tragic, since he still trained his ass off and made himself as strong as he could to keep the Earth safe and he still faced any enemy with stupidly high power level and was virtually powerless to stop him. I'm really hoping he undergoes the God ritual in the manga and obtains god ki. Trunks deserves it to keep his time safe.
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Post by Saudade on Oct 21, 2016 1:38:34 GMT
I am not reading the manga, is it worth it? Like outside of this little quality of life changes does it add something new?
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 21, 2016 2:07:59 GMT
I am not reading the manga, is it worth it? Like outside of this little quality of life changes does it add something new? I think it tells pretty much the same general story (so far), but there are differences that for the moment are minor, but could possibly create differences. The biggest difference I can tell so far is Goku in the manga used Super Saiyan God and SSB to beat Hit, unlike the anime that had him mix SSB with Kaio-ken. Who knows what can happen in the future.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 22, 2016 0:28:31 GMT
Shouldn't this be already translated by now?
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Post by jkrevan on Oct 22, 2016 20:23:36 GMT
The way i see it, the manga and anime contradict each other very little, so they could be added togheter for more information about whats going on overall.
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 23, 2016 15:47:31 GMT
Though I enjoy both frankly I do prefer the anime. Maybe becasue of its slower pacing though I do understand why Manga would rush it a bit. In the end it is a monthly release compared to weekly with the anime. The quality and consistency of animation/style is nothing new. In the end Manga is mostly drawn by one person while due to the way how animation works in Japan and the sad fact that most studios have very limited budget on animation for TV series (take note they do seem to improve overall quality for DVD/BlueRay edition since that's where they'll get most income out of).
When it comes to characters... Eh. As I say I don't feel Goku went too much downhill with his character though in defense of Anime it's nice that Toei does put some more care into side characters. Piccolo, Gohan and at times even Kid Trunks or Goten got bit more fleshed out. Also Anime did put some more light on characters like Frost (His character in the manga was underwhelming to say the least) and IMO had better portrayal of Hit.
Speaking of which I do prefer the Anime version of battle. Not due to SSB Kaioken (though I admit they did explain it pretty well) but due to overall representation of Hit's Time slip. In my opinion manga severely undermined the power and importance of this ability as they only made it work on weaker opponents. It kinda reminds me of some of the insta kill spells in DnD 3.0... For your mage to even learn those you need to be at level 13 and it only affects foes with 6 die or less (equal to character level 6)... Sounds awesome but it's nothing great in the end. In the end manga just ended on typical power level contest where the true winner was the one with higher power level.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 2:51:55 GMT
Shouldn't this be already translated by now? I don't think the new chapter has been translated yet. There doesn't seem to be anything new so that might be why there wasn't a rush to translate it. The way i see it, the manga and anime contradict each other very little, so they could be added togheter for more information about whats going on overall. They’re consistent with each other for the most part. I think the only main difference was the Kaioken. Toriyama’s 6-10-15 scale from BoG could still apply to the manga since nothing contradicts it but not the anime. If SSJB Kaioken x10 is still weaker than Beerus then it would be: Beerus > SSJB Kaioken x10 > 10% Beerus > SSJB Goku (post training with Vegeta) > SSJB Goku (RoF) > SSJGod. But that would also conflict with Beerus's line about using 10% of his power against Enraged Vegeta. I think the problem with the anime is that there are several writers so it's harder to keep it as consistent as the manga that only has one person making decisions. Though I enjoy both frankly I do prefer the anime. Maybe becasue of its slower pacing though I do understand why Manga would rush it a bit. In the end it is a monthly release compared to weekly with the anime. The quality and consistency of animation/style is nothing new. In the end Manga is mostly drawn by one person while due to the way how animation works in Japan and the sad fact that most studios have very limited budget on animation for TV series (take note they do seem to improve overall quality for DVD/BlueRay edition since that's where they'll get most income out of). Where did you read that? DVD sales in Japan, US, and most of the world have dropped in recent years. According to Toei’s own financial records on their website, DVD/BluRay sales account for less than 5% of their revenue (in 2011, it was around 10%). It looks like most of their revenue comes from licensing and broadcast of their animes and films. I think it’s more that Toei is deciding to cut corners than it having to do with their budget. Yeah I know the news about low budget anime but if you look into it, you’ll find that it’s just about the average anime studio in general and no specific information regarding Toei. Toriyama himself complained about the quality of the anime. I doubt he’s complaining about the quality of the story since he’s the one writing the general outline so that basically only leaves the animation quality to complain about.
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 24, 2016 3:38:51 GMT
My apologies I may have jumped into hasty conclusion since they still do increase animation quality for that. Also I did read/watch somewhere that studios generally tend to make quite a bit of revenue from the anime through the DVD releases and other merchandises compared to airing it on TV.
Yeah the quality varies but it's nothing new. I believe it's more of us getting aware of that fact. And it's not only when related to Super. I saw quite a few comments about DBZ quality dropping significantly during "filler" materials.
I am aware that "low budget" problem is more generalized and not equal case with every studio but I don't think Toei is above average here. Sure they are not small but I doubt their budget on animation can even compare to one given for movies or the one that "true elites" that work on single short project for extended period of time (compared to DBS which has the episodes made on the go). Maybe they are cutting the corners but I doubt they are immune to the way system works...
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 24, 2016 4:15:04 GMT
@skar
I found it translated to Spanish. Just like you said, there is less relevant information revealed in this Manga chapter than in the previous one.
I will just mention 2 things in this chapter that called my attention: -The mention of the Universe 12 dude traveling to the past 1000 years prior to Trunks. -Gowasu appears notably more intelligent and less dense. He is shown to distrust Zamasu more, and scolds him far more violently when he kills the Dinosaur Babarian. -It was Zamasu himself who was watching Kamitube and not Gowasu.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 0:26:05 GMT
My apologies I may have jumped into hasty conclusion since they still do increase animation quality for that. Also I did read/watch somewhere that studios generally tend to make quite a bit of revenue from the anime through the DVD releases and other merchandises compared to airing it on TV. I think DVD sales account for a larger percentage of the revenue for smaller studios. While it’s only 5% of Toei’s revenue, it could be 50% or something of the overall revenue of a much smaller studio since they’re making way less from licensing than Toei. According to this forum, these are the numbers for the 10 top largest anime studios from 2007 to 2011 (he gave a source to a Japanese reporting site): 2007 20,247,000,000 - Toei Animation 14,589,000,000 - TMS Entertainment 12,126,000,000 - Sunrise *5,092,000,000 - Studio Pierrot *4,807,000,000 - Gonzo *3,900,000,000 - Madhouse *3,400,000,000 - Studio Ghibli *3,309,000,000 - OLM *2,640,000,000 - Gainax *2,280,000,000 - Nippon Animation 2011 32,027,000,000 - Toei Animation *9,751,000,000 - Sunrise(Irregular report) *9,693,000,000 - TMS Entertainment *8,000,000,000 - Studio Ghibli *5,522,000,000 - Studio Pierrot *4,342,000,000 - OLM *3,446,000,000 - Shin-Ei Animation *3,309,000,000 - Satelight *2,909,000,000 - Production I.G *2,500,000,000 - A-1 Pictures Toei is by far the highest earning anime studio in Japan. According to their own financial records, they’ve had over 30 billion yen each year since 2011 so it hasn’t dropped by much. One Piece accounts for 40-50% of Toei’s revenue each year so it’s their most important product. Dragonball was #3 for them in domestic licensing during DB Kai and jumped up to #2 after the release of BoG. One Piece and Dragonball have been #1 and #2 when it comes to international licensing for many years now and Dragonball might go up to #1 as DBS begins airing in more countries. Together, One Piece and Dragonball account for 60-70% of Toei’s revenue. I can't find any good reason why the most successful anime studio in Japan can't manage to have more consistent animation for their second most successful anime (and one of the most successful anime franchises of all time). @skar I found it translated to Spanish. Just like you said, there is less relevant information revealed in this Manga chapter than in the previous one. I will just mention 2 things in this chapter that called my attention: -The mention of the Universe 12 dude traveling to the past 1000 years prior to Trunks.-Gowasu appears notably more intelligent and less dense. He is shown to distrust Zamasu more, and scolds him far more violently when he kills the Dinosaur Babarian.-It was Zamasu himself who was watching Kamitube and not Gowasu.Oh that means the paradox was only filler! In the anime: -Goku Black chases Trunks to the past (doesn’t really make sense since he never bothered chasing anyone else when they kept traveling back and forth). -Beerus and Whis comment that Goku Black’s ki feels familiar and they go investigate Zamasu. -Goku spars with Zamasu and defeats him. -Zamasu decides to switch bodies with Goku later on. -Goku Black terrorizes Trunks’s future. -Goku Black chases Trunks to the past… I don’t think this is possible with the way time travel works in Dragonball. Changing the past results in a new timeline branching off so paradoxes can’t happen. It makes more sense in the manga with Zamasu acquiring interest in Goku after watching the U6/U7 tournament.
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 26, 2016 13:20:01 GMT
@skar Yeah I admit that Toei earns quite a lot but If I recall correctly isn't big portion of this money going to those on top? Also we have to take into account that Japanese mindset is different from the Western one (especially in USA). Wages for animators are still pretty low regardless of how good the business is going.
And I wouldn't agree with your use of word Filler. I don't think this works in case of DBS simply because Anime and the Manga are created independently. One is not based on another so we can't truly pinpoint one true canon here unless Toriyama himself points us to it.
When it comes to Zamasu acquiring interest with Goku on his own... I have the slight problem with that. I don't see how Zamasu would realize Goku is "god challenging freak" just from that. In Anime while it creates a plot hole (But let's be honest the Plot hole is the middle name of Dragon Ball) the sparring with Goku and the latter attitude towards fighting and challenging Gods fuels Zamasu's fear/hatered/need of intervention before its too late when it comes to mortals, to its fullest and in the end Pushes him into action. But that's just me.
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Post by Kaio del Norte on Oct 26, 2016 14:41:38 GMT
When it comes to Zamasu acquiring interest with Goku on his own... I have the slight problem with that. I don't see how Zamasu would realize Goku is "god challenging freak" just from that. In Anime while it creates a plot hole (But let's be honest the Plot hole is the middle name of Dragon Ball) the sparring with Goku and the latter attitude towards fighting and challenging Gods fuels Zamasu's fear/hatered/need of intervention before its too late when it comes to mortals, to its fullest and in the end Pushes him into action. But that's just me. My theory is that in this future Zamasu first met Goku in the multiverse tournament organized by Zen-Chan and then something must have happened. Their first meeting couldn't have happened just like in the other timeline cause Goku, Beerus and Whis wouldn't have travelled to U10 if Goku Black hadn't already existed and caused trouble. The context of their meeting just can't be the same. Unless Toei did fuck up how time travel works.
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 26, 2016 18:06:55 GMT
When it comes to Zamasu acquiring interest with Goku on his own... I have the slight problem with that. I don't see how Zamasu would realize Goku is "god challenging freak" just from that. In Anime while it creates a plot hole (But let's be honest the Plot hole is the middle name of Dragon Ball) the sparring with Goku and the latter attitude towards fighting and challenging Gods fuels Zamasu's fear/hatered/need of intervention before its too late when it comes to mortals, to its fullest and in the end Pushes him into action. But that's just me. My theory is that in this future Zamasu first met Goku in the multiverse tournament organized by Zen-Chan and then something must have happened. Their first meeting couldn't have happened just like in the other timeline cause Goku, Beerus and Whis wouldn't have travelled to U10 if Goku Black hadn't already existed and caused trouble. The context of their meeting just can't be the same. Unless Toei did fuck up how time travel works. I'll be honest the more I think about time travel in DBZ the more fucked up it seems. Multiverse theory really is a confusing bitch...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 21:59:59 GMT
@skar Yeah I admit that Toei earns quite a lot but If I recall correctly isn't big portion of this money going to those on top? Also we have to take into account that Japanese mindset is different from the Western one (especially in USA). Wages for animators are still pretty low regardless of how good the business is going. If smaller studios are able to provide more consistent animation then I don’t see why Toei can’t do the same. I wouldn’t expect you to take my word for it so I did my best to provide evidence showing that Toei wasn’t an average studio and by far the largest in terms of revenue. Please provide evidence pertaining to Toei if you believe there’s a reason why they can’t meet the same standards as smaller studios. If Toriyama was complaining about it, that leads me to believe Toei was cutting corners and that it wasn’t beyond their control to fix the problems. When DBS first began airing, I was also under the impression that Toriyama was responsible for every detail (or at least majority of them) in the anime. Based on statements from Toriyama himself, that doesn’t seem to be the case. This is what Toriyama said about the anime: “Next up in Dragon Ball Super, adult Trunks will be putting in his first appearance in a long time! I put together this story based on a suggestion from the editorial office. Like last time, I write an outline of the entire plot, then the script writers break it up into episodes, expanding on things, changing things around, or adding in new bits as need be”This is what was said about the manga in an interview with Toriyama and the manga artist, Toyotaro: Speaking of the manga, I want to ask you two about how you put the manga together. I hear Toriyama-sensei checks the storyboards for each chapter. Toriyama: That’s right.
Toyotarō: Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.
Toriyama: It’s better that way.Based on that information, we know that both Toei and Toyotaro are using Toriyama’s outline as a basis and they’re allowed to add their own details. The commonalities between them are coming from Toriyama’s outline while all the differences are whatever Toei or Toyotaro decide to add. We also have some info that implies Toriyama is more involved in the manga than the anime: Back when Toriyama-sensei was drawing the manga, the animators would use his manga panels as reference, imitating the composition and things like that. And now it seems that the animators are likewise using Toyotarō-sensei‘s manga as reference. Toriyama: Oh, that’s good! That should keep them on track!
Toyotarō: Really?… I still can’t believe I lucked into this job (sweat).Toriyama is surprised when he found out that Toei is using the DBS manga as a reference which means he’s not really involved in the production process or he would’ve already known that. On other hand, he checks the storyboard for the manga every chapter so he sees it before it gets released and is able to offer suggestions. I think the manga is closer to Toriyama's outline than the anime since it covers the same outline as the anime but Toyotaro is adding less details of his own. I can understand where you're coming from but I’d prefer the scenario that doesn’t involve the plothole since they both kinda reach the same conclusion. I think Zamasu decides to learn more about Goku after watching that the tournament and it wasn’t the only thing that led to him becoming Goku Black. One of the reasons he wanted to switch bodies was because Goku’s power and how it improved over time but I don't think he'd be able to learn that just from that battle alone.
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Post by Jaquan on Oct 27, 2016 3:38:17 GMT
@skar
Yeah I get what you mean. Guess I just became less sensitive to it over time. Heck now that I look at it even DBZ animation fills the whole spectrum between amazing and terrible... And back then it also happened to movies which as a general rule have way better budget for animation -.- But allow me to withdraw from this side of discussion though...
As of the rest... Yeah it seems that way still... Wasn't the question here more of a speculation? Don't get me wrong but "seems" doesn't quite mean the author of interview has 100% confirmed informations. The answers from both Toriyama and the Manga author sounds more like "If that's true then its good". Plus as I said even if we factor on the time to prepare good quality fan translation the Manga is still somewhat behind the anime. And while DBS Manga isn't on such tight schedule I'd say it's still drawn as it goes so we have 17 chapters maybe 18 (if the fan translations are really slow which I doubt) so far.
(sorry for edit but I had to check your post to make sure I stay on track)
EDIT:
Ok another Edit please don't kill me. Finally had time to do some back research. Basically DBS budget for first two Arcs was roughly 4.000.000 $ which is half of what the combined budget for movies was. And that includes securing its place on TV, marketing and such. Also it had barely two months of pre-production which is only 1/3 of standard time in the industry. From what I've gathered most of animators for Super were also relatively new faces in the industry as more experienced animators were either unavailable or shifted to different projects like One Piece (Especially last two movies). While it's not an excuse of course I hope it will explain the reason behind animation inconsistency at the start.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 8, 2016 21:03:54 GMT
English translation for the chapter is out on manga stream if anyone is still interested.
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Post by Kaio del Norte on Nov 8, 2016 22:41:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 4:29:38 GMT
Yeah I get what you mean. Guess I just became less sensitive to it over time. Heck now that I look at it even DBZ animation fills the whole spectrum between amazing and terrible... And back then it also happened to movies which as a general rule have way better budget for animation -.- But allow me to withdraw from this side of discussion though... It's true that the animation quality of DBZ fluctuated but the problem is the best animation DBS has to offer doesn't come close to the best we've seen in DBZ. It always bothered me when certain fans try to defend the bad animation in DBS by comparing to the worst in DBZ. It's like they're supposed to cancel each other out or something. That logic wouldn't really make sense to me especially if applied to any other franchise (or anything in general to be honest). Imagine if someone tried defending any sequel by saying "Yeah the CGI/animation/acting/etc was shitty at times...but the original that came out 20 years ago also suffered from that!". In a successful franchise, the sequels usually have a higher production budget than the first film. That's because the studio is taking a risk and not sure if that first film in the series is going to be successful or not. If it does perform well then they're more comfortable in putting more money into the sequel to make it look nicer. In some cases, the sequels have a lower budget because either the studio can't afford it or they're hoping nostalgia and the name of that franchise would be enough to sell it. That's what I feel DBS is and not something any fan should really want or be okay with. The production issues that DBZ suffered from back then could have been overcome by now in my opinion. DBZ has been a major source of revenue for Toei for the 20 years since it ended. The only reason Toei wanted to revive the franchise was because it was proven to be successful over the years. My point was that both Toriyama and Toyotaro were surprised that at the idea of Toei using the manga as a reference. It doesn't really matter if Toei does or not and just that it's news to them. Like I said, Toei and Toyotaro are both following Toriyama's outline but Toriyama is only approving one of them before its release. The manga is Toriyama's outline + Toyotaro's additional details and the anime the same outline + even more details added by Toei's writers. I'm just pointing out that a lot of what we see in the anime is not coming from Toriyama because the manga is so much shorter and would cover fewer episodes. Could you provide a source for that information? I'm assuming you got the $4 million from an article about the typical 13-episode anime budget and multiplied it by two. Once again, that should not pertain to Toei. Toei is the highest earning anime studio and DBS is the sequel to one of the most successful anime franchises of all time so neither one is average. In every industry, the top players are in a completely different league than the average which is composed of much smaller companies. It's like comparing Samsung or Apple to the average Chinese smart phone manufacturer or Walmart to the average local supermarket. Whatever the average company can afford, the top players could afford more by default because they have more resources and capital. It also doesn't really make sense that the highest earning anime studio could only afford 1/3 of the standard pre-production time for one of their animes. If this is true then that only further proves that Toei was purposely cutting corners and rushing the release of DBS. The *average* anime budget is $4,000,000 for two short sagas which means that Toei, the highest earning studio, should be able to afford more than that. The *average* standard pre-production time for an anime is six months which means Toei should be able to afford a larger staff and more production time if they need it.
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Post by R I P I R I U S on Nov 13, 2016 8:45:09 GMT
No one noticed the part where Gowasu sees a figure in cloak with 2 Barbari Bodygaurds with him stood as other Barbaris kneeled down in front of the said cloaked figure? (It happened when the dinosaur Barbari attacks them) XXI? or That evil Varga from DBM's first cover page.(Even tho it was just a clothing preference rather than actual character) mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball_chou/c017/13.html
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