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Post by fooshin on Jul 4, 2019 5:45:16 GMT
Just some Xxi thoughts... The being in the apartment that destroyed Santa buu is the real Xxi that old kai knows. He has some lizard-like appearance. He doesn't necessarily possess any magical abilities. He has yet to do anything that would paint him as the villain. He's very powerful, beyond mystic. He was afraid of old Kai's ability to give the mystic powers to someone. Somehow he caused old kai to be sealed in a sword instead of simply killing him. He has an avatar of some sort in the tournament in his place who has no known abilities but instead relies presumably on the information given to him by some type of porunga to win. Old kai knows all about the nameks and the dragonballs and that only they are allowed to use them for some reason and that it's a really really bad thing if anyone else does.
Questions: Was old kai attempting to seal Xxi but was instead captured by his own spell? What happened to the other kaioshin of old kai's time? Were they killed and that explains the lack of old kai's knowledge being passed down? What happened to Xxi in all universes besides 5? Was he killed in the sealing process or did he reign for a time and die of old age or something else. What happened in u5? Was old kai still sealed? How is he still alive so many millions of years later? What's up with the rest of u5? Is everything somewhat normal or is everything destroyed? What does Xxi want with the tournament? Does the avatar's desire to have his wishes reflect what Xxi wants? Is Xxi directly controlling the avatar or is he somewhat independent? If Xxi is so much more powerful than mystic gohan, why was he afraid of what old kai could do? Did old kai give Xxi his power? Is Xxi somehow related to the nameks, perhaps an original namek? Is the dragon he has some sort of early porunga prototype that only grants knowledge instead of wishes? Has Xxi known about the tournament for millions of years because of his dragon and has been waiting all this time for it to come to pass so he can enact his plan to take over the multiverse or destroy it? Is Xxi able to leave his apartment? If he can then why the charade with the avatar? If Xxi wants the wishes, what will they be? What is the strange dimension that xxi is in in his apartment? When buu entered the apartment, did he actually enter the z-sword of u5 where xxi is trapped instead of old kai?
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Post by squirz96 on Aug 15, 2019 0:36:22 GMT
Just some Xxi thoughts... The being in the apartment that destroyed Santa buu is the real Xxi that old kai knows. He has some lizard-like appearance. He doesn't necessarily possess any magical abilities. He has yet to do anything that would paint him as the villain. He's very powerful, beyond mystic. He was afraid of old Kai's ability to give the mystic powers to someone. Somehow he caused old kai to be sealed in a sword instead of simply killing him. He has an avatar of some sort in the tournament in his place who has no known abilities but instead relies presumably on the information given to him by some type of porunga to win. Old kai knows all about the nameks and the dragonballs and that only they are allowed to use them for some reason and that it's a really really bad thing if anyone else does. Questions: Is Xxi somehow related to the nameks, perhaps an original namek? Is the dragon he has some sort of early porunga prototype that only grants knowledge instead of wishes? About connection to the Namek and Old Kai. I don't think that this XXI is the same XXI as Old Kai faced 75 million years ago. Here is what we know about his form: a) His puppet avatar. Mostly For Disguise. b) Black Smoke - dimension. What ever it is. c) Dragon/Namekian form.
Now my theory is kinda based on Christian Mythology. Bear in mind that this is not pro or against Christian religion. Just pointing out the thing. In Christianity you have Holy Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet it is said that in the end times there will be opposite aka unholy trinity: Satan/Devil, Antichrist, False Prophet. In simple terms Antichrist would be like a son/representation of Satan aka the Devil. False Prophet would be the one who brings Antichrist to the "light" deceiving the world that he is "Christ" aka Son of God.
Puppet - False Prophet. Deceiving about "his" appearance. Dragon/Namekian - Antichrist. Black Smoke - Original XXI that Old Kai faced.
Now this is unlikely, however I tend to believe that Dragon/Namekian was original creator of dragon balls. This is why "they/he" has what appears dragon ball. Question is how Dragon became corrupt in the first place was it magic or something else. One possible event is that in U5 Freeza managed to get immortality and devastated by his "species" demise Dragon Namekian made the deal with the devil aka XXI. Since Dragon Namekian doesn't have clear and unfiltered conscious he cannot replicate dragon balls to their full extent. He became too corrupt.
About the wish. It depends which of these are dominant, so far it seems that Dragon One is kind of dominant personality. His wish could be that he could be able to create dragon balls at their full capacity or that he tends to create entire new Namekian species.
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Post by Andres on Jan 13, 2020 15:31:30 GMT
Ahum. Apparently DBM has changed the code of how images appear on the internet, so the old .png images no longer show up. I'll try to edit all my posts here so the images are included again. Wanna revisit what novel mentioned and clarified about XXI, but I'll do that tomorrow. Cheers!
While we're at it, I wanna quote a post I did on a completely different thread, but it works perfectly on this thread as well.
November 30, 2018: I won't lie. I get really excited every time XXI appears. And all the discussions around it. I think there's no better character in DBM to hypothesize than him (him? it?)
In case anyone wants to check it out, we had a discussion two years ago about XXI in the thread The tournament's purpose and endgame: XXI. Not to toot my own horn (yeah, I am the OP), but because there were some really good ideas in the comments. Worth checking it out.
And now, for the XXI rant of 2018:
Salagir is a great writer. He loves to leave subtle hints in pages. Most of the time, we don't pick on these until too late because we're preoccupied on something else.
Case in point:
"Approximately forty days... Next time, we'll use a set from another universe"
Absolutely inconspicuous, until we decide to put on our tinfoil hat and read further.
Why is it inconspicuous? Sleight of hand. Or is it sleight of word? Our attention was driven away from the things that mattered.
We unconsciously decided the important bit was "we'll use a set from another universe". That's the only important piece of information at the moment: THERE ARE SEVERAL INTERCHANGEABLE SETS OF DRAGON BALLS BROUGHT FOR THIS TOURNAMENT.
While completely true, I believe we're only realizing the true importance of that sentence right now: the forty days bits.
We now need to focus back and remember XXI's last appearance. When the Vargas brought the Dragon Balls to the stadium, Vegetto gave a very stern warning to whoever dares getting near the Dragon Balls. To which, XXI replies: "too bad... I'll have my wishes when I win this tournament..."
Let's then revisit DBM greatest pages ever: 992 and 993.
As of the old XXI thread, we hypothesized the other entity in the room is a mystic dragon, looking more like a Porunga than a Shenron.
So, XXI (or the one who we decided to call XXI) is using this Dragon knowledge to win the tournament. He gets answers on how to "vanquish his opponents easily". That lead us to believe this Porunga weird looking eye thing can't really fulfill wishes, but can only provide answers to question. If he could, then why would XXI be after the DB wishes?
He's clearly after the wishes. The old man says so himself.
So, back to Wednesday's page:
For the first time, we see the Old Man and Appartment 5 form XXI in the same room. We can finally conclude XXI is not shapeshifting into this Old Man. What is he then? A vessel like what Kamisama did in DB? A slave? An accomplice? An employee?
Either way, they're working together. The Old Man said "I'll have my wishes when I win the tournament". First person speech. On last page, he was lying there, inert, while Ap5fXXI was speaking. This leads me to believe he's more of a vessel than a slave. Maybe he's bound to his Dark Dimension and cannot exit it freely. That's why he's using an outside body to do his bidding.
And back to the Old Man sentence. "Too bad... I'll have my wishes when I win this tournament..." .
The "Too bad" bit makes me wonder. Too bad Vegetto will vaporize anyone who dare cross the low wall and get near the dragon balls, you mean?
Where am I going with this?
XXI is making good use of Babidi's chaotic uprising. Perfect timing to steal the inert Dragon Balls, bringing them into his Dark Dimension in Apartment 5, where time flows differently and we doesn't need to wait forty days for them to be active again. Only two hours remaining.
By the time Zen Buu decides the Budokai Royale isn't fun anymore and helps bringing everyone back from billion of parsecs away, they will learn the unevitable truth:
XXI is coming.
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Post by squirz96 on Jan 24, 2020 7:16:42 GMT
Since, I am on my smartphone I won't quote specific portion of Andres last post. This is regarding two hour period. I am truly doubtful that this battle would go on for two hours. We don't know how much time passed since then but I am doubtful. Another thing is that 40 days should pass in real DB world. Page 730: Vegito states that he hasn't been there longer then 20 seconds. In fact less then 20. Let's say 15 seconds. While in their regular dimension 2 hours passed. Hmm? 2 hours. Anyway if 15 seconds - > 2 hours -> 120 minutes. Second in that dimension should be 8 minutes. 1 minute = 8 hours. 120 minutes. = 960 hours which is 40 days. My goodness I am proving this to be the case. Still that dimension does not magically allow to Freeze time in regular dimension. 40 days still must have passed in regular dimension.
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Post by SuperVegeta on May 3, 2020 6:08:43 GMT
Ahum. Apparently DBM has changed the code of how images appear on the internet, so the old .png images no longer show up. I'll try to edit all my posts here so the images are included again. Wanna revisit what novel mentioned and clarified about XXI, but I'll do that tomorrow. Cheers!
While we're at it, I wanna quote a post I did on a completely different thread, but it works perfectly on this thread as well.
November 30, 2018: I won't lie. I get really excited every time XXI appears. And all the discussions around it. I think there's no better character in DBM to hypothesize than him (him? it?)
In case anyone wants to check it out, we had a discussion two years ago about XXI in the thread The tournament's purpose and endgame: XXI. Not to toot my own horn (yeah, I am the OP), but because there were some really good ideas in the comments. Worth checking it out.
And now, for the XXI rant of 2018:
Salagir is a great writer. He loves to leave subtle hints in pages. Most of the time, we don't pick on these until too late because we're preoccupied on something else.
Case in point:
"Approximately forty days... Next time, we'll use a set from another universe"
Absolutely inconspicuous, until we decide to put on our tinfoil hat and read further.
Why is it inconspicuous? Sleight of hand. Or is it sleight of word? Our attention was driven away from the things that mattered.
We unconsciously decided the important bit was "we'll use a set from another universe". That's the only important piece of information at the moment: THERE ARE SEVERAL INTERCHANGEABLE SETS OF DRAGON BALLS BROUGHT FOR THIS TOURNAMENT.
While completely true, I believe we're only realizing the true importance of that sentence right now: the forty days bits.
We now need to focus back and remember XXI's last appearance. When the Vargas brought the Dragon Balls to the stadium, Vegetto gave a very stern warning to whoever dares getting near the Dragon Balls. To which, XXI replies: "too bad... I'll have my wishes when I win this tournament..."
Let's then revisit DBM greatest pages ever: 992 and 993.
As of the old XXI thread, we hypothesized the other entity in the room is a mystic dragon, looking more like a Porunga than a Shenron.
So, XXI (or the one who we decided to call XXI) is using this Dragon knowledge to win the tournament. He gets answers on how to "vanquish his opponents easily". That lead us to believe this Porunga weird looking eye thing can't really fulfill wishes, but can only provide answers to question. If he could, then why would XXI be after the DB wishes?
He's clearly after the wishes. The old man says so himself.
So, back to Wednesday's page:
For the first time, we see the Old Man and Appartment 5 form XXI in the same room. We can finally conclude XXI is not shapeshifting into this Old Man. What is he then? A vessel like what Kamisama did in DB? A slave? An accomplice? An employee?
Either way, they're working together. The Old Man said "I'll have my wishes when I win the tournament". First person speech. On last page, he was lying there, inert, while Ap5fXXI was speaking. This leads me to believe he's more of a vessel than a slave. Maybe he's bound to his Dark Dimension and cannot exit it freely. That's why he's using an outside body to do his bidding.
And back to the Old Man sentence. "Too bad... I'll have my wishes when I win this tournament..." .
The "Too bad" bit makes me wonder. Too bad Vegetto will vaporize anyone who dare cross the low wall and get near the dragon balls, you mean?
Where am I going with this?
XXI is making good use of Babidi's chaotic uprising. Perfect timing to steal the inert Dragon Balls, bringing them into his Dark Dimension in Apartment 5, where time flows differently and we doesn't need to wait forty days for them to be active again. Only two hours remaining.
By the time Zen Buu decides the Budokai Royale isn't fun anymore and helps bringing everyone back from billion of parsecs away, they will learn the unevitable truth:
XXI is coming. Yeah Damn he is, He'll be revvived by the end of the series im telling you that
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on May 18, 2020 5:46:44 GMT
I think Old Man is rubber puppet, but according to my theory, XXI has limited capacity in what he can do with the Old Man. I think the puppet/vessel is programmed to do one, and only one thing at a time. Which means that, if XXI unleashes his true power, his identity will be obvious to everyone.
He must resort to simple spells (simple in effect not effort), but being forced to disable an android was already a risk, since the remote only existed in universes where the androids were created in the first place (not U5's case).
Do the Kais know who he is? If Old Kai does, it's likely Fat Kai could. This knowledge could be their leverage against Zen Buu, since Zen Buu is unaware of XXI's true power (he simply knows he's INSANELY powerful) and thus identity.
U5 could be a counterpart to U1, meaning it's a universe with complete lack of intervention from the Kais, a free for all universe, and what emerged was supreme evil which consumed it whole. All other universes are U18 deviations at various points resulting from good guys' mistakes, and U16/17/18 themselves are deviations from the Mirais. U5 could be the only universe in which no action has been taken whatsoever, against anything, it could be the "natural" universe, and result is XXI.
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Post by zennaro on Jun 5, 2021 17:51:17 GMT
Question,what is the limit of Zen Buu? Is there some sort of barrier that XXI made that prevents Zen Buu,a being known to be even stronger than the Dragon Balls, from getting answers?
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Post by عمار on Jun 5, 2021 18:13:22 GMT
Question,what is the limit of Zen Buu? Is there some sort of barrier that XXI made that prevents Zen Buu,a being known to be even stronger than the Dragon Balls, from getting answers? An interesting question. If you would like, I will asked your question to Salagir in the next Twitch stream.
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Post by zennaro on Jun 5, 2021 18:31:40 GMT
Question,what is the limit of Zen Buu? Is there some sort of barrier that XXI made that prevents Zen Buu,a being known to be even stronger than the Dragon Balls, from getting answers? An interesting question. If you would like, I will asked your question to Salagir in the next Twitch stream. oh look its the..."That Girl" Stan hi. yeah I'm not usually awake while Salagir streams so that'd be a huge help though I doubt he'd reveal much information if its vital to the plot. speaking of,it seems like its been like a year since this place was last updated. Though that period didn't see any tournament progression so I guess we don't have anything new spring up?
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Post by عمار on Jun 5, 2021 18:41:48 GMT
oh look its the..."That Girl" Stan hi. It's Phipsil! 😂👊🏻 learn the names of your superiors! XD yeah I'm not usually awake while Salagir streams so that'd be a huge help though I doubt he'd reveal much information if its vital to the plot. You will never know. Sometimes he give info about XXI.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2021 19:40:29 GMT
Honestly XXI would be more interesting if they had leaned in on the Eldritch horror rather than have him wish for easy fixes against his foes. I know he will reveal his true nature, at some point, but just imagine if instead of just deactivating 18 with a remote, he put her in a coma by making her life a never ending nightmare? Like how in Lovecraft stuff these beings were so terrifying to gaze upon it drove people to madness.
There is a ton you can do with XXI to make him a truly terrifying foe to anyone. But have to wait and see what Salagir decides to do.
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Post by drewsaga on Jun 9, 2021 4:16:59 GMT
Honestly XXI would be more interesting if they had leaned in on the Eldritch horror rather than have him wish for easy fixes against his foes. I know he will reveal his true nature, at some point, but just imagine if instead of just deactivating 18 with a remote, he put her in a coma by making her life a never ending nightmare? Like how in Lovecraft stuff these beings were so terrifying to gaze upon it drove people to madness. There is a ton you can do with XXI to make him a truly terrifying foe to anyone. But have to wait and see what Salagir decides to do. Well, this was in the novel (not so much the main manga), here is a part where Android 18 fought XXI.
Chapter 131:
Without giving her brother time for another quip, she flew off, tapping the wall as she passed. She charged the wizard immediately, whose face remained inexpressive. The Vargas took note that she hadn’t yet touched the arena, paying close attention. When she was but a few feet from the old magician, #18 tapped the ground, renewing her momentum and throwing her attack. With her fist fully extended, it took only a millisecond for her to reach him. She felt no magic affecting her — Eighteen smiled with confidence, believing she would succeed where that super powerful Saiyan had failed! She was only a meter away, hearing her brother’s shouts of encouragement, when...
Nothing. Like a light going out without warning, her vision suddenly faded, as did the spark of life that burned inside her. At that last moment of consciousness, just as she felt the energy exiting her limbs, she stared up into the wizard’s eyes, barely ajar. From a distance, no one else could really see them clearly, but she was up close. They were nightmarish, an intense abyssal blackness staring down at her. Her last emotion was an unimaginable terror, and as her consciousness escaped her, #18 collapsed.
Those present in the grandstands, spectators and participants alike, only saw her body fall suddenly on the ground — it was assumed the gravity had been the cause, immobilizing her the instant it took full effect. The young woman’s inert form lay still in front of the magician, pupils empty. He hadn’t even spoken a word, Buu and Gast were certain of it, and both were quite shocked.
I know XXI deactivating her with a remote isn't dramatic but imagine if you were to fight someone and the millisecond before you punch someone, you immediately fall and suddenly lose all your energy and your vision was blurred and the guy who did that to you that you were trying to punch stared right at you with soulless eyes. It's almost like she is at death's door but is not allowed to be released from life into the afterlife. XXI is certainly terrifying in a way that no other Dragon Ball character is.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 9, 2021 4:23:26 GMT
Honestly XXI would be more interesting if they had leaned in on the Eldritch horror rather than have him wish for easy fixes against his foes. I know he will reveal his true nature, at some point, but just imagine if instead of just deactivating 18 with a remote, he put her in a coma by making her life a never ending nightmare? Like how in Lovecraft stuff these beings were so terrifying to gaze upon it drove people to madness. There is a ton you can do with XXI to make him a truly terrifying foe to anyone. But have to wait and see what Salagir decides to do. Well, this was in the novel (not so much the main manga), here is a part where Android 18 fought XXI.
Chapter 131:
Without giving her brother time for another quip, she flew off, tapping the wall as she passed. She charged the wizard immediately, whose face remained inexpressive. The Vargas took note that she hadn’t yet touched the arena, paying close attention. When she was but a few feet from the old magician, #18 tapped the ground, renewing her momentum and throwing her attack. With her fist fully extended, it took only a millisecond for her to reach him. She felt no magic affecting her — Eighteen smiled with confidence, believing she would succeed where that super powerful Saiyan had failed! She was only a meter away, hearing her brother’s shouts of encouragement, when...
Nothing. Like a light going out without warning, her vision suddenly faded, as did the spark of life that burned inside her. At that last moment of consciousness, just as she felt the energy exiting her limbs, she stared up into the wizard’s eyes, barely ajar. From a distance, no one else could really see them clearly, but she was up close. They were nightmarish, an intense abyssal blackness staring down at her. Her last emotion was an unimaginable terror, and as her consciousness escaped her, #18 collapsed.
Those present in the grandstands, spectators and participants alike, only saw her body fall suddenly on the ground — it was assumed the gravity had been the cause, immobilizing her the instant it took full effect. The young woman’s inert form lay still in front of the magician, pupils empty. He hadn’t even spoken a word, Buu and Gast were certain of it, and both were quite shocked.
I know XXI deactivating her with a remote isn't dramatic but imagine if you were to fight someone and the millisecond before you punch someone, you immediately fall and suddenly lose all your energy and your vision was blurred and the guy who did that to you that you were trying to punch stared right at you with soulless eyes. It's almost like she is at death's door but is not allowed to be released from life into the afterlife. XXI is certainly terrifying in a way that no other Dragon Ball character is.
Again, the issue here is this isn't XXI being terrifying, this is the remote he wished for doing its job and just the benefit of text format allowing us to get 18's perspective of being deactivated. To try and make it sound scarier/more dramatic than it actually was. Would you consider Bulma terrifying for having made the remote in canon that could've achieved the same result had Krillin not had a change of heart moment? The only thing you could credit to XXI in the scene's description is his soulless gaze. I am just saying the match would've been more effective if 18 was truely sucked into a dark undying/unliving nightmare by XXI's horrifying skillset not a Dragon Ball shopping item.
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Post by Andres on Dec 25, 2021 0:43:40 GMT
What a great time to revisit this thread
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Post by godjacob on Dec 25, 2021 1:08:54 GMT
Perhaps XXI will finally do something to convey the terror he could represent. Holding out hope.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Dec 25, 2021 1:45:57 GMT
I feel like it makes more sense for his dragon to be more Shenron like. The eyes look slimmer. And it would make sense if this dragon was more like the first version that has limits on what he can do.
Maybe in U5 there aren't many namaks left. And the reason he's at the tournament is he needs a stronger Porunga version.
Does anyone remember the show Monster Rancher? With Moo?
"Moo is the main antagonist of the anime series, and spends most of it in a merged human/monster form. He spends a long time attempting to reclaim his huge Dragon body."
I could see this being whats going on with XXI. He can only exist outside that dimension in the old man body. And needs that wish to fee his true form or allow it to exist in the outside world.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 3:59:05 GMT
Does anyone remember the show Monster Rancher? With Moo? Oh, I do. So, something similar to Moo's case? I could see Salagir going there. Great theory.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Jan 22, 2022 9:34:58 GMT
What we know about him...
He only needs one wish. He doesn't care about anything else but his wish.
He must win this tournament by following the rules. I understood it as, if he wins, nobody can take action against him, and his wish is one of the most terrifying things imaginable.
If we associate his arc with Bardock's vision of Piccolo talking about a threat to all the universes, it's possible XXI wants to either:
1) Erase every other universe but his own 2) Break free from his universe in order to consume all the others in his darkness
All divergences in DBM are related to events we know. The only really old and significant event we know is Old Kai being sealed in the Z Sword. In DBS continuity we know it was Beerus who did it, but Beerus does not exist in DBM (save for an Easter Egg-like cameo). However, I do believe Salagir created XXI with an absurd level of power. A Beerus-tier monster is sure to scare the crap out of Old Kai.
If XXI is really this not-Beerus being, then what could have happened that would have caused the divergence? I once speculated that it was actually the monster who got sealed, then the universe went on as normal, Gohan broke the sword releasing the monster and everything went to shit. But this is not possible, since Hildegarn was never awakened in U5 (as per wiki).
But now we had something interesting happen: XXI's real form was exposed in front of everyone. If Old Kai knows him, it's possible the other Kais do as well. So why did they completely ignore him and focused on Zen Buu instead? It doesn't make much sense. Old Kai is ok with Vegetto, Broly, even Zen Buu, but not XXI? What is it that makes him so horrible?
XXI does not exist in any other universe. He must have been defeated/sealed in the other universes, for causing too much ruckus. With Fat Kai's recent appreciation of chaos, what if U5 is U1's foil? Pure chaos opposite to pure order?
The Kais are not forbidden to intervene: they will do so if things get too much out of hand. The whole point of the Buu saga was that the Kais wanted to intervene, but were too weak to do so.
As opposed to U1, where the Kais shut down every possible threat, maybe U5 is the result of the Kais' complete lack of intervention, which let XXI grow too much powerful and eventually consume everything in it. And now he wants to play by the Kais' rules in order to win the right to consume all the other universes.
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