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Post by Andres on Nov 11, 2016 16:01:49 GMT
Hey guys. Wanted to share a theory that's been around my head for about a year, and each passing day it solidifies inside my head canon.
The whole endgame and PURPOSE of having a tournament is XXI.
We all know by now Grand Kaioshin is working with Zen Buu (or at least, fully aware of what he's doing). We know it by pages like 1162 and 1247:
Grand Kaioshin probably senses himself in Buu (after all, he's the greatest of Gods), and Zen Buu probably senses the Kaioshin within him, so they feel close to each other, as he feels around U18 Uub and U11 Majin Buu. Grand Kaioshin knows he's giving boosts and abilities to all the fighters for shitz & giggles, and he's clearly allowing it, as shown in page 1247. Are they WORKING TOGETHER? Not exactly, but they are aware of the other's doing. They're clearly connected running the show. North Kaioshin even says it out loud: Is Buu acting compliantly with the Great Kaio Shin? But why??. They sense Grand Kaioshin is acting weird but in page 989, the fatso reassures everything is fine.
Do we need any more proof Kaioshin and Zen Buu are working together for an unknown purpose? Page 794. Zen Buu went on a rampage, tried to absorb every single being in the tournament, attacked the audience, and was "succeeding" until Gast stopped him. And after all of this, what does Grand Kaioshin say? "What? This nigh omnipotent, immortal, godly being with powers bigger than the Dragon Balls did what? Meh. Fuck it. Let him stay. He's cool". If there's a bigger "Do not send him back. I NEED this mot"#$f%&/ng nigh omnipotent immortal being because of... reasons", I can't seem to find it.
Here's where it gets interesting. Zen Buu, with consent of Dai Kaioshin, of course, goes on giving boosts to all participants while seemingly still imprisoned in the goo ball (Zen Goo? I must trademark that!!!). He gives boosts, abilities and ideas to them all, except those who HE considered deemed unnecesary or whatnot. But the interesting thing is, he knows all of them. What they can do, what they can't, how powerful or weak they are, and how can they help them. He knows Raichi is sharp and gives him a free recharge, gives Tapion a better use for Hirudegarn, fixes A18, gives boosts and ideas to Cold and Frieza, he unlocks Uub dormant magical potential, gives Kakarotto a tail, teaches Gotenks two extra fusions (or way more, we still don't know), teaches Majin Buu the rules so he can't be tricked so easily and refuses giving help to Bra, as she won't need help, Gast, because he gets in the way and made him a Zen Goo, Cell cause he doesn't sleep and nothing keeps assures him he would keep his mouth shut, and Goku and Vegeta because they're too proud to be assisted.
He knows them all well enough to understand what they need to make fights last longer and more interestingng. But then, he gets to Universe 5. "XXI, the mystery of Universe 5". Zen Buu knows nothing about XXI. And he goes in his appartment room and is GENUINELY SURPRISED OF WHAT HE FINDS.
Of course, XXI finds him and blasts him away, destroying completely that piece of Zen Buu. Buu got a taste of XXI's real power, and we all know for sure that the main Zen Buu knows what happened, and by extension, we now know Dai Kaioshin knows as well.
My guess? He sent Buu to find out about all the info he could gather about XXI and then report back. Of course, Zen Buu is a random guy with thousands of personalities within him and decided to have some fun in his way to XXI's apartment. Santa Buu went to town, got distracted, gave everyone boosts to have more fun in the tournament, and then, got to U5's room. And that was the end of that sneaky Buu head. But main Zen Goo knew about what happened, and reported back as instructed. Now, going back to the earliest pages: if the Vargas, a mere mortal race, DISCOVERED interuniversal travel by accident, as stated in page 15, we can all safely asume the Kaioshins know all about it, specially since they adviced to "keep the universes closed". Now, Elder Kai from U9 knows about XXI, and he's been imprisoned for 75 million years, and shivers at the mere thought of XXI and says "How did the Kaioshins accept that?", so it is clear XXI either still exists or has existed in pretty much all universes from time immemorial.
As stated in page 552 by Dai Kaioshin: "This event is the proof we must check on any hint of danger in the universe. We shall continue to intervene in situations like this". It's their job to keep the universe (universes?) safe from any dangers. But why create a tournament? Why bringing dangerous and evil foes, like Majin Buu, Bojack, the Frost Demons, Broly, evil Saiyans, evil Androids? Makes no sense. Or so it would seem.
Of course it makes sense. XXI has awakened. XXI, the horrible monster Elder Kaioshin from Universe 9 is madly scared about, is back. And judging from the power he exhibited against Zen Buu, he's immensely powerful and is on a rampage on his universe? Why did he accept to participate? Probably because of the prospect of Namekian Dragon Ball wishes. It's been shown he's clearly AFTER THE WISH.
Kaioshins are also not stupid: if XXI is a menace, let's bring him to a universe without life, so there are no consequences.
We also know Buu has been manipulating the tournament from the get go. He has been controlling the order of the matches and the outcome of the matches as well (messing with the Vargas technology to send the participants back to their universes). We also know he manipulated the order of the tournament for Vegetto to fight Broly in the first round. We know this from the novelization. Lemme go look for it while I post this two pictures.
And on that regard, lemme just copy the novelization's chapter 15:
Buu sensed Vegetto arriving. Buu stood, immobile, near the boundary wall separating his space, waiting for the fused Saiyan to arrive. The Saiyan, smiling, greeted him with one hand as he approached and then, reaching over the wall, he jumped over to sit down.
"Hey!" He greeted simply. "Didn't see you there." "Me neither," lied Buu. "How interesting..." "Really? I thought the same thing, too. I guess you noticed Universe 20's fighter." "The ice cube? Yes, it interests me, why?" "I want to confront it." "And?" "I want you to help me." "No way. That opponent will be mine." "Come on, let him be mine. And I promise that we will fight." "We can still fight after I've defeated him."
A pause settled. The two warriors were looking for a big challenge here. They seemed to agree on certain points.
"Listen, I've already fought this guy. I want to face him again." "If you've already fought him, it's my turn," retorted Buu by pointing his finger at Vegetto. "If you fight Broly, I refuse to confront you," Vegetto said, folding his arms and turning his head to one side, sulking. "You still might not have the choice," retorted Buu, who still had not out of arguments. "Aha! You admit that can cheat to fight whoever you want!" "Don't pretend, I know you already knew." "Hmm... you're pretty smart," said Vegetto with a smile. "I'm not fooled. After all, you and I have much in common. It is the Goku and Vegeta within me. That part of me is excited about the fight against you. Goku wants to face the side of Vegeta that is within you and Vegeta wants to face the side of Kakarotto within you." "If I don't face Broly, and I find myself against you... I'll forfeit." "You would never." "Obviously, you don't know me as well as you think. Vegetto is much more different than just having Vegeta and Kakarotto together," replied the Saiyan.
Vegetto stood backup, ready to go. He took two to three steps and turned his head slightly.
"I want to fight Broly in the first round... That still leaves you time to think. See ya!"
Vegetto returned to his room, leaving Buu in the same place to consider his proposal. As he walked, he smiled. He knew that Buu could cheat to fight whoever he wanted. But what the fused warrior may never know is that Universe 18's Goku had done the exact same thing to be able to fight Uub in the first round of the Tenkaichi Budokai, ten years earlier.
It is obviously clear Zen Buu manipulated the order to make Vegetto fight Broly. I don't think anyone has doubts about it. But, if all we said so far is correct, we can also assume he did more than just that one. Let's keep in mind Buu wanted to fight Broly himself, and not Vegetto. If we look closely at the draw, we'll see something:
The three true powerhouses are all in the same quarter bracket: Broly, Vegetto and Zen Buu. And they're all in XXI's bracket. Is it on purpose? If everything we said before is true, then ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY.
Zen Buu is working with Dai Kaioshin to stop the menace XXI is. What better way to do it legally? Zen Buu wanted to fight Broly first, just for the excitement of fighting someone mighty powerful, and why not, ABSORB HIM. Then, he goes on to fight XXI himself. Buuly (Buu+Broly absorbed) should be powerful enough to beat XXI. End of story. Now, Vegetto blackmailed him into fighting Broly first, so Buu made the best of the circumstances: Let them brawl each other, and whoever wins, fights XXI. Either one of them is powerful enough to be a fierce opponent for the monster. If they fail, he's still there for backup.
Not only the rampage showed Buu was controlling everything from the beginning. It also showed something else: he only got mad enough after seing XXI leaving and Vegetto losing. This fight was of particularly big interest for him, and XXI's quick win pushed him off the edge. I'm sure he was also expecting Vegetto to win. And then, he says he'll control it more openly, and decide who the next fight would be. In fact, he's thinking about it. Maybe he was scheduling HIMSELF to fight XXI. Who knows?'
In Baddack's vision, I'm pretty sure Piccolo is talking about XXI about being a threat to all the universes and not Vegetto. That would also make sense to the other visions, where Baddack saw Gohan with a broken Dragon Ball (after all, XXI is after the wish, and destroying a Dragon Ball would avoid it)
Cyber Yamcha's line is interesting. Most of us have theorized Yamcha is talking about XXI, and how his power or magic may not work on artificial beings, so that's why he needed the help of a remote control to defeat A18. It would seem XXI's magic doesn't affect artificial beings so that's why he needs other ways to beat them. He is powerful enough to blast a Zen Buu piece into oblivion, but perhaps he can only do it in his "Appartment 5 form", thus outing him to be the monster Elder Kai fears. Most of us think the old guy is just a facade to hide his true form.
So, if Buu is manipulating the tournament along with Dai Kaioshin to out and defeat XXI, the draw is not random at all. Not only the three more powerful beings are in XXI's quarter: Buu himself, Broly and Vegetto, but he also placed ALL of the most powerful beings in the tournament in XXI's half: Bra, Gast Carcolh and two Gotenkses. None of the truly powerful guys are on Goku's half, they're all on XXI's half. That can't be coincidence.
We can even hypothesize some further: Zen Buu might have known, by either his own findings or via the Kaioshin, that XXI seems to be helpless against androids. And what does he do? He places THREE POTENTIAL ANDROIDS in his path! A18, Arale and Cyber Yamcha! Is it too much of a coincidence? Probably. I might be reading too much into lines and assuming a lot of things, but let's summarize the draw:
1) Buu wanted to face XXI himself early to end things quickly. But he also wanted to fight Broly (and absorb him, probably) and then face XXI. Vegetto blackmails him. 2) He puts Vegetto and Broly in the first round so they slug it out early, and whoever wins, faces XXI. 3) If somehow either Vegetto or Broly fails, let's put three androids for XXI to potentially face in the third round. 4) If the androids fail, he will face XXI himself. And why not, with a brand new Heliot armor, barrier and carbonite. 5) If he fails, XXI still has to go through either Bra or Gast Carcolh: one is truly powerful and the other is truly powerful and also has powerful magic. 6) If that fails, oh shit oh shit oh shit, well, Goku and Vegetta better fuse again to have either a much powerful Vegetto or a powerful Gogeta. 7) If that fails, fuck it. We're toast. Or not. Let's destroy all dragon balls and leave him in this empty universe to sulk alone.
Of course, Babidi is still fucking things around and Ginyu has his own agenda, but those are minor subplots in a much, bigger story.
Conclusion:
XXI is a truly multiversal threat, as we all expect by now, and the whole tournament is a façade to oust him out and defeat him once and for all with the help and assistance of the mightiest warriors from ALL universes combined. If they suceed or not? Who knows?
Thoughts? Opinions? This could be fun.
Edit: Salagir M'lord? What do you think?
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 11, 2016 16:11:51 GMT
Like like like! Just read all of it. Stay tuned for an edited reply giving this nice piece of work the response it deserves. Good to see you here, Andres.
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Post by Andres on Nov 11, 2016 16:13:52 GMT
Like like like! Just read all of it. Stay tuned for an edited reply giving this nice piece of work the response it deserves. Good to see you here, Andres. I've been here for a while! I was one of the first ones to register, IIRC. I read a lot, and post ocasionally
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 11, 2016 16:16:08 GMT
I've been here for a while! I was one of the first ones to register, IIRC. I read a lot, and post ocasionally I know, I'm one of your followers It's just been a while. Gimme a little time and I'll have that response done.
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Post by Andres on Nov 11, 2016 16:22:36 GMT
I've been here for a while! I was one of the first ones to register, IIRC. I read a lot, and post ocasionally I know, I'm one of your followers It's just been a while. Gimme a little time and I'll have that response done. Sure thing. I'll do a quick edit of the original post, because I left a tiny detail out, regarding Buu's rampage.
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Post by thejakub on Nov 11, 2016 16:40:38 GMT
We can even hypothesize some further: Zen Buu might have known, by either his own findings or via the Kaioshin, that XXI seems to be helpless against androids. And what does he do? He places THREE POTENTIAL ANDROIDS in his path! A18, Arale and Cyber Yamcha! Is it too much of a coincidence? Probably.
Yes, there is also #16 in XXI half, unfortunately (for this theory) #17 is in Goku's half.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 11, 2016 17:21:13 GMT
Andres (didn't wanna quote cuz it was super long but this tag still works.) I think you just changed the view of DBM. Can't wait to hear other opinions on this. Edit: Just reread cuz the Old Kai meets XXI part had me a bit confused. Old Kai said "Oh no it's not him" so either it's a variation of the actual XXI that Old Kai knows about 75 million years ago (or son or something) or Old Kai saw XXI in is Apartment 5 form (Nice ring to it along with Zen Goo.)
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Post by Andres on Nov 11, 2016 18:49:29 GMT
Andres (didn't wanna quote cuz it was super long but this tag still works.)
I think you just changed the view of DBM. Can't wait to hear other opinions on this.
Edit: Just reread cuz the Old Kai meets XXI part had me a bit confused. Old Kai said "Oh no it's not him" so either it's a variation of the actual XXI that Old Kai knows about 75 million years ago (or son or something) or Old Kai saw XXI in is Apartment 5 form (Nice ring to it along with Zen Goo.)
Thanks mate! It's something that's been on my mind for quite some time now and wanted to share. I think the tournament's XXI is the same terrible being Old Kai met 75 million years ago before being sealed in the Z Sword. That being said, I think XXI is concealing his true form, and the old-magician-guy is just a disguise. That's why Old Kai didn't recognize him back then. I believe his true form is his Apartment 5 form, and now Zen Buu knows it.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 11, 2016 19:24:09 GMT
Hey guys. Wanted to share a theory that's been around my head for about a year, and each passing day it solidifies inside my head canon.
The whole endgame and PURPOSE of having a tournament is XXI. [..]
XXI is a truly multiversal threat, as we all expect by now, and the whole tournament is a façade to oust him out and defeat him once and for all with the help and assistance of the mightiest warriors from ALL universes combined. If they suceed or not? Who knows? Okay, here we go. A little long, but not too bad. Things I learned from your post (7): -- The Dai Kaioshin and Buu probably have a connection similar to what Buu feels with Uub, making them willing to work with each other. -- Buu already knew everything about everyone except for XXI, and is actually startled by what he found. -- The Dai Kaioshin probably sent Buu to scout on XXI, and all of Buu's gifts were likely Buu getting distracted along the way. -- The Kaioshins probably knew certain contestants were evil but brought them anyway. -- The U1 Kais, the ones hosting the tournament, are the ones who've always taken the "kill first, ask questions later" approach to evil. This could possibly all be some huge trap to stamp out bad guys throughout the multiverse... -- Buu likely made sure that Vegito fought Broly in the first round. -- There are three androids (four, if you count 16) in XXI's side of the bracket. Things I agree with you on and don't have much to add (4): -- The tournament has always seemed very right-heavy to me: Goku, Vegeta, Uub, and Cell would be hopelessly outclassed by, or at least very hard-pressed to match up with, about 11 of the 32 fighters on the right side of the bracket. -- XXI is the one Piccolo's referring to as threatening the multiverse. I've never thought it was Vegito. -- Gohan is referring to XXI when he's holding a broken Dragon Ball. -- Buu might be the Big Good of the story. (Or at least one of them.) This has been my conspiracy theory for years, since it'd be a nice subversion of expectations. Vegito, U16's universal policeman and supposed champion of good, ends up going crazy and Buu, originally the manifestation of raw evil, is working to protect the multiverse. Things that I noticed because of your post (11): -- If Dai Kaioshin does have a plan with Buu, why is he keeping it secret from the other Kais? Does he not trust them? Does he think they might give away the plan to XXI? -- Though Buu restrained everyone in the stadium, I don't think he was really trying to absorb them; that'd nullify his point of wanting to see good fights. -- Though Buu restrained the Kai's, we don't see him actually doing anything to Grand Kaioshin. -- Buu, knowing that Cold was Ginyu, said Bra "doesn't need any help." Was he actively planning on or anticipating Bra getting body-swapped? It'd be really funny if Buu knew what was coming and let it happen. -- Buu has only been truly surprised twice in the tournament: when Gast captured him, and when he went into XXI's room. He got a little "huh?" against Xeniloum and possibly a little shock when Broly got sent back, but other than that he's been pretty chill. (And the existence of this whole ruse with Dai Kaioshin makes me wonder if Gast actually beat/surprised him in the first place.) -- XXI can permanently destroy pieces of Buu. -- Why haven't Buu or Dai Kaioshin tried talking to Old Kai to see what he knows? -- When Buu took over, he was thinking about what fight he wanted to see first. If he wanted to fight XXI, he presumably would've announced it immediately. -- Gohan holding a destroyed Dragon Ball implies XXI's already got the other six. Which means somebody likely makes a grab for them at some point. -- In all three of Bardock's visions, Bra seems to be acting like herself, and in two of those she explicitly seems to be referring to Vegito in a way only she would. (The only vision that could possibly be Ginyu-Bra is the one where Piccolo tells her to be civil.) This isn't really a surprise, since we all know every Ginyu swap cannot last, but I'm thinking that every single one of Bardock's visions referring to Bra are actually all the same scene. -- Videl is a babe. Now, points to discuss. Buu and Dai Kaioshin (three paragraphs) Just how long have these two been in cahoots with each other? Since Round 1? Since the rampage? Note that Buu, from U4, would've gotten picked up by the Vargas before U5's XXI and might've had time to talk with Dai Kaioshin, learn about the goal to lure in and destroy XXI, and figure out a plan. However, unless XXI has the ability to cross dimensions (more on this in a second), this kind of seems like a dangerous plan--why expose so many people from so many universes to an enemy so powerful when he can't get out of his own universe? Are the Kaioshins trying to rescue U5 or something? Another question I have is how the Dai Kaioshin would've known about XXI at all. Old Kai knows, but he's been imprisoned for 75 million years. I doubt Dai Kaioshin has been around that long, and U18's Supreme Kai doesn't seem to know anything about XXI. I still think it is highly likely the U1 Kais had no idea who XXI was. I appreciate the info that Buu fixed the Vegito/Broly match--I haven't read the novelization, and it seems like I can't make a post these days without Conqueror Geng bringing something up and correcting me Has it been firmly stated Buu controlled the entire first draw, though? If he did, why'd he pair up XXI against Lumaca, some worthless no-name who, as it turned out, didn't even end up fighting him? The only explanation I can think of is if Buu already knew XXI was an old wizard and wanted to see what he'd do against an opponent that was relatively weak but too powerful for a normal person to beat. The right side of the bracket has all the heaviest hitters, but also consider this: Goku and Vegeta, if they advance to the semi/finals, will have gotten at least four opportunities to watch XXI fight. That means they may just have the best chance to beat him, because they'll have the best idea of what exactly he can do and have the most time to plan. I predict that Buu will lose to XXI (and might even get killed! That'd definitely be a gut-punch, at least to me.) Coincidentally, if Buu did arrange all the matches then that makes him a sort of Author Avatar for Salagir, who similarly arranged the tournament in the best way possible XXI (three-ish paragraphs) For years I've wondered what XXI wants and why the heck he's being so secretive. Buu's impressed by his power, so that puts him at least around SS2-Vegito level. A guy that strong could basically get whatever he wanted by force: he could use his speed to get into the Vargas control room before anyone even noticed or could do anything, kill all the handlers, destroy the machine so they couldn't warp him back, and then say he'll kill everyone on the asteroid if the organizers don't produce the Dragon Balls. Yet for some reason, he doesn't. Why? Why the ruse? Can his power only be used in small doses? Does his true form shrivel up like a cockroach and die when he's hit by bright lights? (By the way, this is why XXI is the best Dragon Ball fanfic villain ever, and better than GT or Super's. I have no idea what the heck he's after.)
Also, what is it that Porunga can do for him that he can't already do for himself? Immortality wishes are cliche, and would make XXI no better than all of the villains in the tournament. A being of XXI's apparent magnitude--someone that might've been alive for 75 million years--probably doesn't need immortality anyway. Bring back the dead? (Oh, goodness, I sure hope he's not trying to bring back some long-lost love or something. Yeesh.) And isn't it implied that he's already got a dragon chilling in his room, anyway?
One thing I'd like to mention is that I think XXI is capable of some degree of dimensional or multiversal travel. Not entirely--or else he'd just go and grab himself some Dragon Balls instead of fooling around at the tournament--but he did warp Vegito, after all, and then there's the matter of his room. I think Old-Man XXI opened a portal of some kind to his own universe to let in Big Beastie XXI and Glowing Eyes #2. The Vargas would've noticed a dimension-darkening monster hitching a ride on their ship.
If it turns out that XXI's magic can't affect androids, I think the reason why is because they have no ki signature. The ki is, in many ways, the soul, and maybe if XXI can't "lock-on" to somebody's soul he can't Dimension-Gimp them or something similar. Anyway, great post, Andres. I like the idea that this's all some huge Xanatos Gambit by Dai Kaioshin. Heaven knows the guy needs more respect from the DB fandom.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 11, 2016 20:45:00 GMT
Things that I noticed because of your post (11): 1-- If Dai Kaioshin does have a plan with Buu, why is he keeping it secret from the other Kais? Does he not trust them? Does he think they might give away the plan to XXI? 2-- Though Buu restrained everyone in the stadium, I don't think he was really trying to absorb them; that'd nullify his point of wanting to see good fights. 3-- Though Buu restrained the Kai's, we don't see him actually doing anything to Grand Kaioshin. 4-- Buu, knowing that Cold was Ginyu, said Bra "doesn't need any help." Was he actively planning on or anticipating Bra getting body-swapped? It'd be really funny if Buu knew what was coming and let it happen. 5-- Buu has only been truly surprised twice in the tournament: when Gast captured him, and when he went into XXI's room. He got a little "huh?" against Xeniloum and possibly a little shock when Broly got sent back, but other than that he's been pretty chill. (And the existence of this whole ruse with Dai Kaioshin makes me wonder if Gast actually beat/surprised him in the first place.) 6-- XXI can permanently destroy pieces of Buu. 7-- Why haven't Buu or Dai Kaioshin tried talking to Old Kai to see what he knows? 8-- When Buu took over, he was thinking about what fight he wanted to see first. If he wanted to fight XXI, he presumably would've announced it immediately. 9-- Gohan holding a destroyed Dragon Ball implies XXI's already got the other six. Which means somebody likely makes a grab for them at some point. 10-- In all three of Bardock's visions, Bra seems to be acting like herself, and in two of those she explicitly seems to be referring to Vegito in a way only she would. (The only vision that could possibly be Ginyu-Bra is the one where Piccolo tells her to be civil.) This isn't really a surprise, since we all know every Ginyu swap cannot last, but I'm thinking that every single one of Bardock's visions referring to Bra are actually all the same scene. 11-- Videl is a babe. I'm the guy that likes to speculate stuff, that's why I singled out your "things I noticed" part 1. Hope you can keep up. Lol Buu knows that Grand Supreme Kai is part of him and that the others (U18/16 etc) speculated that Buu could "influence" G.S.K. But Buu doesn't actually have this ability so when he approached Grand supreme kai, he had to appear submissive and under the spell and such. Grand SKai, via telepathy, knows of this "inability" and fears the other Kais could expose their current predicament/mission to scout out XXI, even though there was no "evil" intent all along. 2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito. 3. Yeah I was wondering why only South and East were the only ones shown. What was up with that? Did Salagir just only show them for their joke scene? 4. Maybe part of his plan to expose XXI's abilities. Show that XXI is op and possibly can revert the "wrong" bodied-souls back to their "last" body.. Or original body and we can see Cold return "after 30 years" and explain the ginyu subplot. That's micromanaging. 5. The Gast surprise I'd say that's when Buu nearly got exposed or thwarted. He wanted Grand Kai to do the honors but I guess Gast was a bit of an unplanned surprise. OR!!! Gast did read Buu's mind. Remember he read Gohan's and Krillin's mind back in his special, who's to say he wasn't actually helping Buu out by setting him up for pairing with GrandSupreme Kai (I'm gonna referto him as GSK from now on.) 6. Question is if it's another technique or the same one as Vegito and Bra did? The one in the apartment appeared to be a generic but OP blast imo. "What power!" could mean the attack exceeded ZBuu's ability to regenerate, thus able to destroy it... or tiny head buu was weaker and could be destroyed, dunno. 7. Maybe it didn't occur to them. When OldKai made his statement, he was in the U9 balcony so I doubt U1 Kais and Buu ball (That sounds cool.) could hear Old Kai from that far away. Nor did they even know there was an old kai in their universe till U9 broke the ZSword, so they could be skeptical. (Maybe they thought this one succumbed to evil and that's why he was sealed away :/) 8. Maybe Buu was weak and wanted to scope out more of XXI's tactics. He only did see 1 fight (the actual first fight was against someone from U10 who already left.) so the next match was against an android, (cyborg... shut up Trunks and Cell) who doesn't have a Ki signature... and yet they got taken down. Artificial humans (cyborg... I gotta stop breaking the fourth wall within my own post. It might make me look crazy XD) So yeah, Buu's letting it play out before he might fuck up against XXI so he can see all of XXI's abilities, or this case weapons. 9. XXI teleported Vegito away. Dunno where but My question is if he could teleport himself the same manner and if so, can he decide which dimension to appear in? (Kinda like IT but you chose the route, not based on a Ki source) so XXI could've secretly been stealing the Dragon balls after that special accommodation (revive fallen warriors) 10. Then why was Vegeta there? Is it possible Vegito got diffused and this is actually U16 Vegeta meeting Bra and Bra is throwing a tantrum that her biological father (technically Goku + Vegeta, so that's why I said biological) is now gone!? O.O 11. Can't believe I'm asking this but what's a babe? Yes I'm 19, I didn't lie about my age. I just didn't get exposed to those type of things yet -Nerd Problems XD
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 11, 2016 21:07:09 GMT
I'm the guy that likes to speculate stuff, that's why I singled out your "things I noticed" part [...] 2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito. [...] 5. The Gast surprise I'd say that's when Buu nearly got exposed or thwarted. He wanted Grand Kai to do the honors but I guess Gast was a bit of an unplanned surprise. OR!!! Gast did read Buu's mind. Remember he read Gohan's and Krillin's mind back in his special, who's to say he wasn't actually helping Buu out by setting him up for pairing with GrandSupreme Kai (I'm gonna referto him as GSK from now on.) Holy crud, that actually sounds like a really good idea. One of the biggest DBM questions I want answered is how much of Buu's rampage was actually planned. I'd believe that he honestly was mad at XXI, but was the whole rampage thing something he'd planned to do? I could totally see him "pretending" to get restrained by Dai Kaioshin to build up the tournament organizer's cred and stop people from watching him all the time (like U16 was doing.) Some people have theorized that Gast is in on the whole plan, too. In a way, that makes his one big moment of glory a fraud, but on the other hand it means he'll probably have more long-term relevance to the story. Well, with that whole scene I think we were supposed to assume that unless someone's specifically shown to be fighting or escaping (like Bra or all of U18), they're trapped. For instance, if South Kai got captured, North and West Kai probably were, too. But Dai Kaioshin wasn't shown at all, and it could be an important detail to know what he was doing during the rampage. Considering how flabbergasted the U1 Kais were to see the Old Kai when Cold broke the Z-Sword, you'd think they would've gone over to talk to him during lunch break or something :/ Unless I've gotten 20 years behind the times, a "babe" is a person who is attractive. On a scale of 1 to 10 of suggestiveness, it's probably a 4. Higher than "cutie" at 3 but lower than "hot" at 5. "Sexy" is a 6.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 11, 2016 21:36:32 GMT
I'm the guy that likes to speculate stuff, that's why I singled out your "things I noticed" part [...] 2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito. [...] 5. The Gast surprise I'd say that's when Buu nearly got exposed or thwarted. He wanted Grand Kai to do the honors but I guess Gast was a bit of an unplanned surprise. OR!!! Gast did read Buu's mind. Remember he read Gohan's and Krillin's mind back in his special, who's to say he wasn't actually helping Buu out by setting him up for pairing with GrandSupreme Kai (I'm gonna referto him as GSK from now on.) Holy crud, that actually sounds like a really good idea. One of the biggest DBM questions I want answered is how much of Buu's rampage was actually planned. I'd believe that he honestly was mad at XXI, but was the whole rampage thing something he'd planned to do? I could totally see him "pretending" to get restrained by Dai Kaioshin to build up the tournament organizer's cred and stop people from watching him all the time (like U16 was doing.) Some people have theorized that Gast is in on the whole plan, too. In a way that makes his one big moment of glory a fraud, but on the other hand it means he'll probably have more long-term relevance to the story. Well, with that whole scene I think we were supposed to assume that unless someone's specifically shown to be fighting or escaping (like Bra or all of U18), they're trapped. For instance, if South Kai got captured, North and West Kai probably were, too. But Dai Kaioshin wasn't shown at all, and it could be an important detail to know what he was doing during the rampage. Considering how flabbergasted the U1 Kais were to see the Old Kai when Cold broke the Z-Sword, you'd think they would've gone over to talk to him during lunch break or something :/ Unless I've gotten 20 years behind the times, a "babe" is a person who is attractive. On a scale of 1 to 10 of suggestiveness, it's probably a 4. Higher than "cutie" at 3 but lower than "hot" at 5. "Sexy" is a 6. Bold: Wait, you mean to tell me I actually came up with a theory that someone else can actually think is considered good!? Back to the analysis. Or maybe Gast did try to do his moment of Glory and after containing Buu is when he read his mind... aka "I have multiple personalities" line. Then Gast is in on the secret. Oh hey, I can do partial quotes... now to figure out how to tag a person's gravatar as part of another person's post. That's for another day. Tis a meme but otherwise applicable "It's not canon if it didn't happen on screen." so yeah. That scene could go either way. From the page cuz there's no need for the image. "He disappeared at about the same time the legend of the z-sword began... we should break our's to free him in our universe!" First lunch break was before Vegito and Broly match... meh. Next intermission was night time, they were focused on Buu being trapped in the first place and if he controled GSK. Attention diverted from XXI to make the others think Buu was crazy and a watch out for GSK being controlled. Followup intermission was Buu's gift's. That's when they scoped out XXI but didn't think he was that big of a threat... yet. And the Last lunch is before Cold vs Bra (bracket wise this doesn't make much sense unless that's how long the matches took.)... I don't have a good explanation for this one, this was the one where Beerus showed up and the U18 Trunks and Goten played waiter... ACTUALLY!!! They said " we shouldn't have accepted this bet" but we the readers never saw it... so possibly off screen talking for Old Kai and GSK. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Gotcha, thanks Ashanark!
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Post by Andres on Nov 12, 2016 1:22:34 GMT
Okay, here we go. A little long, but not too bad.
Things I learned from your post (7):
-- The Dai Kaioshin and Buu probably have a connection similar to what Buu feels with Uub, making them willing to work with each other. -- Buu already knew everything about everyone except for XXI, and is actually startled by what he found. -- The Dai Kaioshin probably sent Buu to scout on XXI, and all of Buu's gifts were likely Buu getting distracted along the way. -- The Kaioshins probably knew certain contestants were evil but brought them anyway. -- The U1 Kais, the ones hosting the tournament, are the ones who've always taken the "kill first, ask questions later" approach to evil. This could possibly all be some huge trap to stamp out bad guys throughout the multiverse... -- Buu likely made sure that Vegito fought Broly in the first round. -- There are three androids (four, if you count 16) in XXI's side of the bracket.
Things I agree with you on and don't have much to add (4):
-- The tournament has always seemed very right-heavy to me: Goku, Vegeta, Uub, and Cell would be hopelessly outclassed by, or at least very hard-pressed to match up with, about 11 of the 32 fighters on the right side of the bracket. -- XXI is the one Piccolo's referring to as threatening the multiverse. I've never thought it was Vegito. -- Gohan is referring to XXI when he's holding a broken Dragon Ball. -- Buu might be the Big Good of the story. (Or at least one of them.) This has been my conspiracy theory for years, since it'd be a nice subversion of expectations. Vegito, U16's universal policeman and supposed champion of good, ends up going crazy and Buu, originally the manifestation of raw evil, is working to protect the multiverse.
Things that I noticed because of your post (11):
-- If Dai Kaioshin does have a plan with Buu, why is he keeping it secret from the other Kais? Does he not trust them? Does he think they might give away the plan to XXI? -- Though Buu restrained everyone in the stadium, I don't think he was really trying to absorb them; that'd nullify his point of wanting to see good fights. -- Though Buu restrained the Kai's, we don't see him actually doing anything to Grand Kaioshin. -- Buu, knowing that Cold was Ginyu, said Bra "doesn't need any help." Was he actively planning on or anticipating Bra getting body-swapped? It'd be really funny if Buu knew what was coming and let it happen. -- Buu has only been truly surprised twice in the tournament: when Gast captured him, and when he went into XXI's room. He got a little "huh?" against Xeniloum and possibly a little shock when Broly got sent back, but other than that he's been pretty chill. (And the existence of this whole ruse with Dai Kaioshin makes me wonder if Gast actually beat/surprised him in the first place.) -- XXI can permanently destroy pieces of Buu. -- Why haven't Buu or Dai Kaioshin tried talking to Old Kai to see what he knows? -- When Buu took over, he was thinking about what fight he wanted to see first. If he wanted to fight XXI, he presumably would've announced it immediately. -- Gohan holding a destroyed Dragon Ball implies XXI's already got the other six. Which means somebody likely makes a grab for them at some point. -- In all three of Bardock's visions, Bra seems to be acting like herself, and in two of those she explicitly seems to be referring to Vegito in a way only she would. (The only vision that could possibly be Ginyu-Bra is the one where Piccolo tells her to be civil.) This isn't really a surprise, since we all know every Ginyu swap cannot last, but I'm thinking that every single one of Bardock's visions referring to Bra are actually all the same scene. -- Videl is a babe.
Now, points to discuss.
Buu and Dai Kaioshin (three paragraphs)
Just how long have these two been in cahoots with each other? Since Round 1? Since the rampage? Note that Buu, from U4, would've gotten picked up by the Vargas before U5's XXI and might've had time to talk with Dai Kaioshin, learn about the goal to lure in and destroy XXI, and figure out a plan. However, unless XXI has the ability to cross dimensions (more on this in a second), this kind of seems like a dangerous plan--why expose so many people from so many universes to an enemy so powerful when he can't get out of his own universe? Are the Kaioshins trying to rescue U5 or something? Another question I have is how the Dai Kaioshin would've known about XXI at all. Old Kai knows, but he's been imprisoned for 75 million years. I doubt Dai Kaioshin has been around that long, and U18's Supreme Kai doesn't seem to know anything about XXI. I still think it is highly likely the U1 Kais had no idea who XXI was.
I appreciate the info that Buu fixed the Vegito/Broly match--I haven't read the novelization, and it seems like I can't make a post these days without Genghis Khan bringing something up and correcting me Has it been firmly stated Buu controlled the entire first draw, though? If he did, why'd he pair up XXI against Lumaca, some worthless no-name who, as it turned out, didn't even end up fighting him? The only explanation I can think of is if Buu already knew XXI was an old wizard and wanted to see what he'd do against an opponent that was relatively weak but too powerful for a normal person to beat.
The right side of the bracket has all the heaviest hitters, but also consider this: Goku and Vegeta, if they advance to the semi/finals, will have gotten at least four opportunities to watch XXI fight. That means they may just have the best chance to beat him, because they'll have the best idea of what exactly he can do and have the most time to plan. I predict that Buu will lose to XXI (and might even get killed! That'd definitely be a gut-punch, at least to me.)
Coincidentally, if Buu did arrange all the matches then that makes him a sort of Author Avatar for Salagir, who similarly arranged the tournament in the best way possible
XXI (three-ish paragraphs)
For years I've wondered what XXI wants and why the heck he's being so secretive. Buu's impressed by his power, so that puts him at least around SS2-Vegito level. A guy that strong could basically get whatever he wanted by force: he could use his speed to get into the Vargas control room before anyone even noticed or could do anything, kill all the handlers, destroy the machine so they couldn't warp him back, and then say he'll kill everyone on the asteroid if the organizers don't produce the Dragon Balls. Yet for some reason, he doesn't. Why? Why the ruse? Can his power only be used in small doses? Does his true form shrivel up like a cockroach and die when he's hit by bright lights? (By the way, this is why XXI is the best Dragon Ball fanfic villain ever, and better than GT or Super's. I have no idea what the heck he's after.)
Also, what is it that Porunga can do for him that he can't already do for himself? Immortality wishes are cliche, and would make XXI no better than all of the villains in the tournament. A being of XXI's apparent magnitude--someone that might've been alive for 75 million years--probably doesn't need immortality anyway. Bring back the dead? (Oh, goodness, I sure hope he's not trying to bring back some long-lost love or something. Yeesh.) And isn't it implied that he's already got a dragon chilling in his room, anyway?
One thing I'd like to mention is that I think XXI is capable of some degree of dimensional or multiversal travel. Not entirely--or else he'd just go and grab himself some Dragon Balls instead of fooling around at the tournament--but he did warp Vegito, after all, and then there's the matter of his room. I think Old-Man XXI opened a portal of some kind to his own universe to let in Big Beastie XXI and Glowing Eyes #2. The Vargas would've noticed a dimension-darkening monster hitching a ride on their ship.
If it turns out that XXI's magic can't affect androids, I think the reason why is because they have no ki signature. The ki is, in many ways, the soul, and maybe if XXI can't "lock-on" to somebody's soul he can't Dimension-Gimp them or something similar.
I'm the guy that likes to speculate stuff, that's why I singled out your "things I noticed" part
1. Hope you can keep up. Lol Buu knows that Grand Supreme Kai is part of him and that the others (U18/16 etc) speculated that Buu could "influence" G.S.K. But Buu doesn't actually have this ability so when he approached Grand supreme kai, he had to appear submissive and under the spell and such. Grand SKai, via telepathy, knows of this "inability" and fears the other Kais could expose their current predicament/mission to scout out XXI, even though there was no "evil" intent all along.
2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito.
3. Yeah I was wondering why only South and East were the only ones shown. What was up with that? Did Salagir just only show them for their joke scene?
4. Maybe part of his plan to expose XXI's abilities. Show that XXI is op and possibly can revert the "wrong" bodied-souls back to their "last" body.. Or original body and we can see Cold return "after 30 years" and explain the ginyu subplot. That's micromanaging.
5. The Gast surprise I'd say that's when Buu nearly got exposed or thwarted. He wanted Grand Kai to do the honors but I guess Gast was a bit of an unplanned surprise. OR!!! Gast did read Buu's mind. Remember he read Gohan's and Krillin's mind back in his special, who's to say he wasn't actually helping Buu out by setting him up for pairing with GrandSupreme Kai (I'm gonna referto him as GSK from now on.)
6. Question is if it's another technique or the same one as Vegito and Bra did? The one in the apartment appeared to be a generic but OP blast imo. "What power!" could mean the attack exceeded ZBuu's ability to regenerate, thus able to destroy it... or tiny head buu was weaker and could be destroyed, dunno.
7. Maybe it didn't occur to them. When OldKai made his statement, he was in the U9 balcony so I doubt U1 Kais and Buu ball (That sounds cool.) could hear Old Kai from that far away. Nor did they even know there was an old kai in their universe till U9 broke the ZSword, so they could be skeptical. (Maybe they thought this one succumbed to evil and that's why he was sealed away :/)
8. Maybe Buu was weak and wanted to scope out more of XXI's tactics. He only did see 1 fight (the actual first fight was against someone from U10 who already left.) so the next match was against an android, (cyborg... shut up Trunks and Cell) who doesn't have a Ki signature... and yet they got taken down. Artificial humans (cyborg... I gotta stop breaking the fourth wall within my own post. It might make me look crazy XD) So yeah, Buu's letting it play out before he might fuck up against XXI so he can see all of XXI's abilities, or this case weapons.
9. XXI teleported Vegito away. Dunno where but My question is if he could teleport himself the same manner and if so, can he decide which dimension to appear in? (Kinda like IT but you chose the route, not based on a Ki source) so XXI could've secretly been stealing the Dragon balls after that special accommodation (revive fallen warriors)
10. Then why was Vegeta there? Is it possible Vegito got diffused and this is actually U16 Vegeta meeting Bra and Bra is throwing a tantrum that her biological father (technically Goku + Vegeta, so that's why I said biological) is now gone!? O.O
Such lovely responses deserve a lovelier response on my part. Don't know if my response will be as lovely, but I'll try my best.
-- If Dai Kaioshin does have a plan with Buu, why is he keeping it secret from the other Kais? Does he not trust them? Does he think they might give away the plan to XXI?
When someone has a grand plan, I believe the less people are aware of it, the better. I think this is only Dai Kaioshin's doing, and all other Kaioshins are unaware of it. South Kaioshin is remarkably upset at everything Zen Buu does and wants to send him back every time. They have no idea Dai Kaioshin is pulling some serious strings.
-- Why haven't Buu or Dai Kaioshin tried talking to Old Kai to see what he knows?
Maybe they have. Salagir may not have showed it yet, but remember U13 Vegeta talking to Old Kai was shown in the comic waaay, way later than it actually happened, and in a sort of flashback.
-- When Buu took over, he was thinking about what fight he wanted to see first. If he wanted to fight XXI, he presumably would've announced it immediately.
A penchant for being dramatic? LOL. That's pretty much on-character with Zen Buu, haha.
Just how long have these two been in cahoots with each other? Since Round 1? Since the rampage? Note that Buu, from U4, would've gotten picked up by the Vargas before U5's XXI and might've had time to talk with Dai Kaioshin, learn about the goal to lure in and destroy XXI, and figure out a plan. However, unless XXI has the ability to cross dimensions (more on this in a second), this kind of seems like a dangerous plan--why expose so many people from so many universes to an enemy so powerful when he can't get out of his own universe? Are the Kaioshins trying to rescue U5 or something? Another question I have is how the Dai Kaioshin would've known about XXI at all. Old Kai knows, but he's been imprisoned for 75 million years. I doubt Dai Kaioshin has been around that long, and U18's Supreme Kai doesn't seem to know anything about XXI. I still think it is highly likely the U1 Kais had no idea who XXI was.
Impossible to tell. I believe they've been working together from the beginning. I think XXI absolutely wrecked his universe, and managed to find a way to disrupt others, or even travel across them. He's seen able to access new dimensions where time flows differently. There's still no way to tell.
I don't think there's an obvious need for the U1 Kais to know EVERYTHING or anything about XXI. They may only know a terrible monster is wrecking U5 and they can't beat him alone, so they bring it here, where they have collected 60 of the best Multiversal fighters, in order to bring him down. 4 of the Top 10 have already fallen. Old Kai knows more about XXI than them, apparently. He must be a truly threat to all of the universes if they couldn't shut U5 closed. After all, if a sentient bird races like the Vargas could discover interuniversal travel, XXI probably could as well.
10. Then why was Vegeta there? Is it possible Vegito got diffused and this is actually U16 Vegeta meeting Bra and Bra is throwing a tantrum that her biological father (technically Goku + Vegeta, so that's why I said biological) is now gone!? O.O
That would be cool. I think he's U18 Vegeta scolding U16 Bra (after all, she is a true warrior unlike her own daughter), but an unfused U16 Vegeta would be cool. Bra also talks to U18 Goku about his father, so I'm inclined to think it all happens during the same timespan.
2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito.
Good to hear! I actually had the exact same idea: Zen Buu planed the rampage only to be enslaved by Grand Kai. Gast got in the way doing it first, and it caught Zen Buu off guard. After all that, Dai Kaioshin simply """"copies"""" Gast Carcolh's technique, even though Gast himself he can't confirm it's the same technique, nor that it should be any easy to copy. It was planned all along. Gast almost blew it.
After the rampage, South Kaioshin was outraged, demanding him to go back, and Dai Kaioshin was all like "Shush, slave. He's cool. He'll stay. You shush". In fact, whenever Zen Buu did something dramatic or out of the norm, South Kaioshin gets angry and Dai Kaioshin scolds him for being uptight. Like when Zen Buu took over the musicians:
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Post by Xeno Black on Nov 12, 2016 4:26:42 GMT
This is a incredible theory you have made Andres. But just like what Ashanark has said, what exactly is XXI'S endgame? Is XXI only concern about universal (or multiversal) domination, or is there a hidden agenda he is secretly looking to achieve (thus needing the Dragon Balls)? It really does suck we might have to wait a couple of years to get these questions answered lol. But to add on, If XXI is really as dangerous as he is implied to be, I strongly believe a unique fusion between Vegeto and Gogeta will happen to defeat his powers! Thoughts?
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Post by mbg on Nov 12, 2016 4:34:59 GMT
You know, I never quite realized that this was the reason for the joke about Elder Kai knowing XXI. He goes "Oh, it's not him!", not because it's a joke, but because the XXI he knows is a giant black cloud of death and the XXI over there is some wizard who looks like a shriveled kiwi.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 12, 2016 4:45:13 GMT
This is a great theory. Kudos for going through all the pages and uploading them here to support your idea.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 12, 2016 5:52:21 GMT
Spoiler to save space
Okay, here we go. A little long, but not too bad.
Things I learned from your post (7):
-- The Dai Kaioshin and Buu probably have a connection similar to what Buu feels with Uub, making them willing to work with each other. -- Buu already knew everything about everyone except for XXI, and is actually startled by what he found. -- The Dai Kaioshin probably sent Buu to scout on XXI, and all of Buu's gifts were likely Buu getting distracted along the way. -- The Kaioshins probably knew certain contestants were evil but brought them anyway. -- The U1 Kais, the ones hosting the tournament, are the ones who've always taken the "kill first, ask questions later" approach to evil. This could possibly all be some huge trap to stamp out bad guys throughout the multiverse... -- Buu likely made sure that Vegito fought Broly in the first round. -- There are three androids (four, if you count 16) in XXI's side of the bracket.
Things I agree with you on and don't have much to add (4):
-- The tournament has always seemed very right-heavy to me: Goku, Vegeta, Uub, and Cell would be hopelessly outclassed by, or at least very hard-pressed to match up with, about 11 of the 32 fighters on the right side of the bracket. -- XXI is the one Piccolo's referring to as threatening the multiverse. I've never thought it was Vegito. -- Gohan is referring to XXI when he's holding a broken Dragon Ball. -- Buu might be the Big Good of the story. (Or at least one of them.) This has been my conspiracy theory for years, since it'd be a nice subversion of expectations. Vegito, U16's universal policeman and supposed champion of good, ends up going crazy and Buu, originally the manifestation of raw evil, is working to protect the multiverse.
Things that I noticed because of your post (11):
-- If Dai Kaioshin does have a plan with Buu, why is he keeping it secret from the other Kais? Does he not trust them? Does he think they might give away the plan to XXI? -- Though Buu restrained everyone in the stadium, I don't think he was really trying to absorb them; that'd nullify his point of wanting to see good fights. -- Though Buu restrained the Kai's, we don't see him actually doing anything to Grand Kaioshin. -- Buu, knowing that Cold was Ginyu, said Bra "doesn't need any help." Was he actively planning on or anticipating Bra getting body-swapped? It'd be really funny if Buu knew what was coming and let it happen. -- Buu has only been truly surprised twice in the tournament: when Gast captured him, and when he went into XXI's room. He got a little "huh?" against Xeniloum and possibly a little shock when Broly got sent back, but other than that he's been pretty chill. (And the existence of this whole ruse with Dai Kaioshin makes me wonder if Gast actually beat/surprised him in the first place.) -- XXI can permanently destroy pieces of Buu. -- Why haven't Buu or Dai Kaioshin tried talking to Old Kai to see what he knows? -- When Buu took over, he was thinking about what fight he wanted to see first. If he wanted to fight XXI, he presumably would've announced it immediately. -- Gohan holding a destroyed Dragon Ball implies XXI's already got the other six. Which means somebody likely makes a grab for them at some point. -- In all three of Bardock's visions, Bra seems to be acting like herself, and in two of those she explicitly seems to be referring to Vegito in a way only she would. (The only vision that could possibly be Ginyu-Bra is the one where Piccolo tells her to be civil.) This isn't really a surprise, since we all know every Ginyu swap cannot last, but I'm thinking that every single one of Bardock's visions referring to Bra are actually all the same scene. -- Videl is a babe.
Now, points to discuss.
Buu and Dai Kaioshin (three paragraphs)
Just how long have these two been in cahoots with each other? Since Round 1? Since the rampage? Note that Buu, from U4, would've gotten picked up by the Vargas before U5's XXI and might've had time to talk with Dai Kaioshin, learn about the goal to lure in and destroy XXI, and figure out a plan. However, unless XXI has the ability to cross dimensions (more on this in a second), this kind of seems like a dangerous plan--why expose so many people from so many universes to an enemy so powerful when he can't get out of his own universe? Are the Kaioshins trying to rescue U5 or something? Another question I have is how the Dai Kaioshin would've known about XXI at all. Old Kai knows, but he's been imprisoned for 75 million years. I doubt Dai Kaioshin has been around that long, and U18's Supreme Kai doesn't seem to know anything about XXI. I still think it is highly likely the U1 Kais had no idea who XXI was.
I appreciate the info that Buu fixed the Vegito/Broly match--I haven't read the novelization, and it seems like I can't make a post these days without Genghis Khan bringing something up and correcting me Has it been firmly stated Buu controlled the entire first draw, though? If he did, why'd he pair up XXI against Lumaca, some worthless no-name who, as it turned out, didn't even end up fighting him? The only explanation I can think of is if Buu already knew XXI was an old wizard and wanted to see what he'd do against an opponent that was relatively weak but too powerful for a normal person to beat.
The right side of the bracket has all the heaviest hitters, but also consider this: Goku and Vegeta, if they advance to the semi/finals, will have gotten at least four opportunities to watch XXI fight. That means they may just have the best chance to beat him, because they'll have the best idea of what exactly he can do and have the most time to plan. I predict that Buu will lose to XXI (and might even get killed! That'd definitely be a gut-punch, at least to me.)
Coincidentally, if Buu did arrange all the matches then that makes him a sort of Author Avatar for Salagir, who similarly arranged the tournament in the best way possible
XXI (three-ish paragraphs)
For years I've wondered what XXI wants and why the heck he's being so secretive. Buu's impressed by his power, so that puts him at least around SS2-Vegito level. A guy that strong could basically get whatever he wanted by force: he could use his speed to get into the Vargas control room before anyone even noticed or could do anything, kill all the handlers, destroy the machine so they couldn't warp him back, and then say he'll kill everyone on the asteroid if the organizers don't produce the Dragon Balls. Yet for some reason, he doesn't. Why? Why the ruse? Can his power only be used in small doses? Does his true form shrivel up like a cockroach and die when he's hit by bright lights? (By the way, this is why XXI is the best Dragon Ball fanfic villain ever, and better than GT or Super's. I have no idea what the heck he's after.)
Also, what is it that Porunga can do for him that he can't already do for himself? Immortality wishes are cliche, and would make XXI no better than all of the villains in the tournament. A being of XXI's apparent magnitude--someone that might've been alive for 75 million years--probably doesn't need immortality anyway. Bring back the dead? (Oh, goodness, I sure hope he's not trying to bring back some long-lost love or something. Yeesh.) And isn't it implied that he's already got a dragon chilling in his room, anyway?
One thing I'd like to mention is that I think XXI is capable of some degree of dimensional or multiversal travel. Not entirely--or else he'd just go and grab himself some Dragon Balls instead of fooling around at the tournament--but he did warp Vegito, after all, and then there's the matter of his room. I think Old-Man XXI opened a portal of some kind to his own universe to let in Big Beastie XXI and Glowing Eyes #2. The Vargas would've noticed a dimension-darkening monster hitching a ride on their ship.
If it turns out that XXI's magic can't affect androids, I think the reason why is because they have no ki signature. The ki is, in many ways, the soul, and maybe if XXI can't "lock-on" to somebody's soul he can't Dimension-Gimp them or something similar.
I'm the guy that likes to speculate stuff, that's why I singled out your "things I noticed" part
1. Hope you can keep up. Lol Buu knows that Grand Supreme Kai is part of him and that the others (U18/16 etc) speculated that Buu could "influence" G.S.K. But Buu doesn't actually have this ability so when he approached Grand supreme kai, he had to appear submissive and under the spell and such. Grand SKai, via telepathy, knows of this "inability" and fears the other Kais could expose their current predicament/mission to scout out XXI, even though there was no "evil" intent all along.
2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito.
3. Yeah I was wondering why only South and East were the only ones shown. What was up with that? Did Salagir just only show them for their joke scene?
4. Maybe part of his plan to expose XXI's abilities. Show that XXI is op and possibly can revert the "wrong" bodied-souls back to their "last" body.. Or original body and we can see Cold return "after 30 years" and explain the ginyu subplot. That's micromanaging.
5. The Gast surprise I'd say that's when Buu nearly got exposed or thwarted. He wanted Grand Kai to do the honors but I guess Gast was a bit of an unplanned surprise. OR!!! Gast did read Buu's mind. Remember he read Gohan's and Krillin's mind back in his special, who's to say he wasn't actually helping Buu out by setting him up for pairing with GrandSupreme Kai (I'm gonna referto him as GSK from now on.)
6. Question is if it's another technique or the same one as Vegito and Bra did? The one in the apartment appeared to be a generic but OP blast imo. "What power!" could mean the attack exceeded ZBuu's ability to regenerate, thus able to destroy it... or tiny head buu was weaker and could be destroyed, dunno.
7. Maybe it didn't occur to them. When OldKai made his statement, he was in the U9 balcony so I doubt U1 Kais and Buu ball (That sounds cool.) could hear Old Kai from that far away. Nor did they even know there was an old kai in their universe till U9 broke the ZSword, so they could be skeptical. (Maybe they thought this one succumbed to evil and that's why he was sealed away :/)
8. Maybe Buu was weak and wanted to scope out more of XXI's tactics. He only did see 1 fight (the actual first fight was against someone from U10 who already left.) so the next match was against an android, (cyborg... shut up Trunks and Cell) who doesn't have a Ki signature... and yet they got taken down. Artificial humans (cyborg... I gotta stop breaking the fourth wall within my own post. It might make me look crazy XD) So yeah, Buu's letting it play out before he might fuck up against XXI so he can see all of XXI's abilities, or this case weapons.
9. XXI teleported Vegito away. Dunno where but My question is if he could teleport himself the same manner and if so, can he decide which dimension to appear in? (Kinda like IT but you chose the route, not based on a Ki source) so XXI could've secretly been stealing the Dragon balls after that special accommodation (revive fallen warriors)
10. Then why was Vegeta there? Is it possible Vegito got diffused and this is actually U16 Vegeta meeting Bra and Bra is throwing a tantrum that her biological father (technically Goku + Vegeta, so that's why I said biological) is now gone!? O.O
Such lovely responses deserve a lovelier response on my part. Don't know if my response will be as lovely, but I'll try my best.
-- If Dai Kaioshin does have a plan with Buu, why is he keeping it secret from the other Kais? Does he not trust them? Does he think they might give away the plan to XXI?
When someone has a grand plan, I believe the less people are aware of it, the better. I think this is only Dai Kaioshin's doing, and all other Kaioshins are unaware of it. South Kaioshin is remarkably upset at everything Zen Buu does and wants to send him back every time. They have no idea Dai Kaioshin is pulling some serious strings.
-- Why haven't Buu or Dai Kaioshin tried talking to Old Kai to see what he knows?
Maybe they have. Salagir may not have showed it yet, but remember U13 Vegeta talking to Old Kai was shown in the comic waaay, way later than it actually happened, and in a sort of flashback.
-- When Buu took over, he was thinking about what fight he wanted to see first. If he wanted to fight XXI, he presumably would've announced it immediately.
A penchant for being dramatic? LOL. That's pretty much on-character with Zen Buu, haha.
Just how long have these two been in cahoots with each other? Since Round 1? Since the rampage? Note that Buu, from U4, would've gotten picked up by the Vargas before U5's XXI and might've had time to talk with Dai Kaioshin, learn about the goal to lure in and destroy XXI, and figure out a plan. However, unless XXI has the ability to cross dimensions (more on this in a second), this kind of seems like a dangerous plan--why expose so many people from so many universes to an enemy so powerful when he can't get out of his own universe? Are the Kaioshins trying to rescue U5 or something? Another question I have is how the Dai Kaioshin would've known about XXI at all. Old Kai knows, but he's been imprisoned for 75 million years. I doubt Dai Kaioshin has been around that long, and U18's Supreme Kai doesn't seem to know anything about XXI. I still think it is highly likely the U1 Kais had no idea who XXI was.
Impossible to tell. I believe they've been working together from the beginning. I think XXI absolutely wrecked his universe, and managed to find a way to disrupt others, or even travel across them. He's seen able to access new dimensions where time flows differently. There's still no way to tell.
I don't think there's an obvious need for the U1 Kais to know EVERYTHING or anything about XXI. They may only know a terrible monster is wrecking U5 and they can't beat him alone, so they bring it here, where they have collected 60 of the best Multiversal fighters, in order to bring him down. 4 of the Top 10 have already fallen. Old Kai knows more about XXI than them, apparently. He must be a truly threat to all of the universes if they couldn't shut U5 closed. After all, if a sentient bird races like the Vargas could discover interuniversal travel, XXI probably could as well.
10. Then why was Vegeta there? Is it possible Vegito got diffused and this is actually U16 Vegeta meeting Bra and Bra is throwing a tantrum that her biological father (technically Goku + Vegeta, so that's why I said biological) is now gone!? O.O
That would be cool. I think he's U18 Vegeta scolding U16 Bra (after all, she is a true warrior unlike her own daughter), but an unfused U16 Vegeta would be cool. Bra also talks to U18 Goku about his father, so I'm inclined to think it all happens during the same timespan.
2. Sounds spot on with what Andres said. In fact, Buu took the perfect timing to be "enslaved" by Grand SKai (but with Gast doing it, it was unplanned and nearly ruined the opportunity) when Vegito disappeared thanks to XXI. This not only got Buu to be captured but to alert the others of why Buu was outraged against XXI... because he could pull BS tactics that were actually OP even compared to someone like Vegito.
Good to hear! I actually had the exact same idea: Zen Buu planed the rampage only to be enslaved by Grand Kai. Gast got in the way doing it first, and it caught Zen Buu off guard. After all that, Dai Kaioshin simply """"copies"""" Gast Carcolh's technique, even though Gast himself he can't confirm it's the same technique, nor that it should be any easy to copy. It was planned all along. Gast almost blew it.
After the rampage, South Kaioshin was outraged, demanding him to go back, and Dai Kaioshin was all like "Shush, slave. He's cool. He'll stay. You shush". In fact, whenever Zen Buu did something dramatic or out of the norm, South Kaioshin gets angry and Dai Kaioshin scolds him for being uptight. Like when Zen Buu took over the musicians:
[/spoiler][/div][/div][/font][/div][/div][/quote]Any response is lovely... sounds weird but it's true. Putting in the time to make such a detailed theory and coming back to answer the questions about the theories shows your effort and that you're willing to respond! Time to analyze I like to change my statement. If it happened on screen, in flashback, or stated otherwise, then it's canon. Interesting idea having Vegeta talk to his daugh... alternate version of his daughter. (U16 Bra is not equal to U18 Bra in terms of Genetics but that's a different theory.) Bra does talk to U18 Goku about... wait... did you just assume Bra's gender!? (Been making that joke bc of the GInyu-Bra fiasco we don't know how to address their gender. Also I tend to break the fourth wall in the middle of my own typing, so sorry, and not sorry about it XD) Bra does talk to U18 about her father but in the Piccolo, Bra and Vegeta page, where's Goku in all this? Is it during his match we hear about all of this? I think my sub-theory about Gast was only in Ashanark's post and not yours but if it was, oops for repeating myself. I think Gast is onto the plan as well bc he could read Gohan and Krillin's So I thought Gast read Buu's mind after imprisoning Buu and that's when Gast was like "YEah sure I'll play undercova cop with y'all" Acts like Buu could break again and "let's" someone stronger (GSK) take over. (All under the original plan, go and get transferred to GSK like Buu planned) Would make sense that XXI or his "dragon" be that OP that they managed to destroy the original threat to their universe, Kid Buu... now ZBuu of U4. What Power!!! NEVER STOP!!! Don't stop!!! You're in luck now! There's so much to be found!!! XD Lol, had to reference that Dragon Soul. Well just my personal suggestion but your call to do what you want. Type within this thread a sentence suggesting you will reply to the ones prior to that post. Edit said post and then the ones that come up later you can visit another day. That's what I did when making the Dragon BAll super This week's episode thread when I made my post. Bold: I speculate shit but in no way did I ever have enough evidence or long term sight of creativity to make such a theory so complex as yours. (Complex in a good way... maybe I should say elaborate.. yep. Elaborate theory is better) If I could, I would, then I'd make a second account just to like you a second time for that theory. (Don't worry mods, I won't do this. T'is why I said if i could XD)
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Post by fooshin on Nov 12, 2016 8:12:41 GMT
Perhaps saligir went Harry potter, sorcerer's stone for the villian(s). Maybe instead of wanting to wish for immortality his primary wish is just to come back to life. Maybe xxi died after sealing old kai Mafuba style and he possessed some old wizard to try to get him to wish his real body back to life. - just another crazy theory.
So I'd say there's no way GSK knew about xxi. They were all surprised to see old kai (although GSK was not shown in the shocked kai faces when the sword broke so maybe...) there was no hint that the kais knew anything about the old kai and the sword other than that he disappeared around the time of the swords legend, and many generations of kais have passed since then so I'd say xxi disappeared about the same time as old kai and no one since would have known about him.
I don't think zen and GSK were colluding before his capture. I don't think zen shares the link you suspect because it is clear from salagir that GSK destroyed his brain before being absorbed. There is nothing there for them to be bonded to and besides Majin and kai magics don't mix well together so if anything there's a big conflict there.
GSK wanting to rid the multiverse of evil. Well, having a tournament like this would have serious risks and would go immensely against there long standing policy. Preventing the Varga's from using their technology would be the expected course of action from them.
Can't believe gast is in on this. There's no evidence and if anything having been approached by the kais about gsk's control probably has him very suspicious about what's going on. There's no way GSK could know about his ability to stop zen and it would have been pretty amazing (unbelievable) for gsk to have somehow stopped his rampage so I can't see them colluding up to that point. This gsk never knew buu or anything about him before he showed up at the tournament (he was busy fishing when his buu was aborted) and like I said, buu's link to gsk is weak at best.
Just want to clarify what most of us suspect since i see different people referring to what happened in xxi's apartment as being other than what it strongly appears. There are 2 sets of eyes and juding on the light and likely scale, xxi is an old wizard who might have another form, and in the background is some type of dragon rising up above a collection of dragonballs. This dragon apparently can't grant wishes but can answer questions (earth's dragon and nameks are pretty different too and do different things so it makes some sense). It is pretty clear that xxi's dragon is what automatically attacked santa buu although there is some chance that xxi's true form is also dragon like. It would be strange to summon a dragon that only answers questions and have it set to automatically defend your room. I also suspect that the apartment is in u5's dimension.
Also one other point that was brought up that brings me back to voldemort. It could be that xxi can send others to other dimensions but that doesn't mean he can send himself - as in I'll just go to u34 and grab some dragon balls from namek. He could be trapped somehow (like maybe in an empty otherworld) and had it not been for the Varga's he would have been forever stuck.
Strange that gohan is holding a broken dragonball and saying that without this he won't get his wish. Even if he had it, would a broken ball be able to be put back together? And aren't there multiple sets?
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Post by Andres on Nov 12, 2016 15:35:27 GMT
This is a incredible theory you have made Andres . But just like what Ashanark has said, what exactly is XXI'S endgame? Is XXI only concern about universal (or multiversal) domination, or is there a hidden agenda he is secretly looking to achieve (thus needing the Dragon Balls)?
It really does suck we might have to wait a couple of years to get these questions answered lol.
But to add on, If XXI is really as dangerous as he is implied to be, I strongly believe a unique fusion between Vegeto and Gogeta will happen to defeat his powers! Thoughts? I'm afraid it's too early to tell. We just have no idea what it is. If Old Kai knows him, then he's vastly old (at least, in the 70 million+ range). He might be as old as time itself. He also exists on U9, so that makes me think he exists on all universes. Maybe he's been dormant all these millennia and has now awakened in U5 and wrecked it completely. And perhaps they're trying to avoid XXI awakening in all of the other parallel universes.
Maybe he's just chaos and death, opposed to a Kaioshin which is order, peace and life.
We saw him in Apartment 5 with that it seems to be a modified version of Porunga, who only answers questions, so maybe that's why he needs his wish. Who knows? I have no idea what his intended wish could be. I guess we'll have to wait a year to find out.
Regarding the fusions, I considered it, but a Vegetto+Gogeta fusion sounded too much like fan-service. Gogito? Gogetto? I don't know. It's a cool concept, but from a story-telling standpoint, sounds too gimicky, if you know what I mean.
This is a great theory. Kudos for going through all the pages and uploading them here to support your idea. Hey thanks! Took me a while to type, but it's been on my mind for several months now, and I just HAD to share it and make it... somewhat reasonable. It's nothing without the images, really.
You know, I never quite realized that this was the reason for the joke about Elder Kai knowing XXI. He goes "Oh, it's not him!", not because it's a joke, but because the XXI he knows is a giant black cloud of death and the XXI over there is some wizard who looks like a shriveled kiwi. I think we all thought so too, back then, up until we saw what happened in Apartment 5. Until that event, he was just a magician who tricked Vegetto. After the Apartment 5 incident, we all knew he was much, much more.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 12, 2016 18:01:27 GMT
If this is the real plot of DBM then I would say Salagir is really an excellent writer, Dai Kaioshin seems to be pretty smart so I wouldn't doubt this to be a plan he develop with Buu since before the beggining of the tournament(probably after XXI arrival), I would say that Dai Kaioshin had his doubts about XXI and Buu's probing inside it's apartment confirmed his suspicions.
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