Despite this being the DBM forum, I think we can all agree that the one of the biggest topics is Dragon Ball Super. The latest threads have discussed (and heavily debated on could say) a lot of how it compares to Z and if the criticisms are valid or nostalgia based. It’s made me have a new retro-perspective look on sequels like Super and GT and how fans rationalize or view different forms of continuity. Is Super better because it’s considered more canon? Is GT more original? Am I over-thinking an old Japanese man's story loosely based on Chinese mythos?!? Probably, but that's besides the point!
I want to discuss both GT and Super in length and what merits and lows each saga holds and come to my OWN consensus. It’s a fun topic and I apologize in advance for the walls of text ;P (
Thanks for Genghis Khan and Axalon for giving me the idea to do so!) 
GT First: Immediately it starts off with an advantage over Super in terms of time-placement. All events that follow GT are set AFTER the ending of Z so no matter the quality of GT’s outcome, it’s still a mystery how it will end. Super doesn’t have this advantage, as all events are set BEFORE Z’s ending and unless retcons are involved, Toriyama doesn’t want any story-driven content AFTER Z before to quote him
“He had already made a majority of the cast TOO old”. I personally disagree with that statement but the fact stands; it delivers a HUGE problem. The problem being tension. It’s hard enough with the dragon balls reset button to create a tense atmosphere when death is treated as a commodity. Now with a fixed ending in place, it drains some of thrill from the series when we know Goku and co are going to be just fine. With few exceptions from characters such as Future Trunks of course. However, this doesn’t mean the series cannot have enjoyable content. Just because I knew Gandalf was in LOTRs doesn’t mean the Hobbit cannot be enjoyable or even good in quality. It just means you need to work very-hard to tell a story based on its merits of its writing rather than conclusion.
Black Star Dragon Balls Saga:My personal opinion is that the first arc of GT (I may get grilled for this) but I kind of enjoyed it. I haven’t viewed GT in its entirety for a couple of years now so perhaps I’m viewing it through the nostalgia googles of a younger commenter. However, I do adore the concept of this first arc. Bringing back the original adventure element of the original series but on a much larger-scale with the elements of the more action-focused Z. I do agree the black star dragon balls are contrived mcguffin used to get the series going, but there’s something very appealing about the idea. I’ve always enjoyed science fiction series, and exploring new world’s whether it’s through gaming like Mass effect, Star Wars, Halo etc or through the visual medium of Space Dandy, Alien and Transformers. So a bizarre quest to collect all the dragon balls on a galactic scale offers some interesting scenarios and interactions for the protagonists beyond
YELL REALLY LOUDLY AND PUNCH VERY HARD. I also personally didn’t mind the idea of Goku being reverted to a kid state. It’s more interesting idea to reduce one of the most powerful protagonists in anime to a mere child. Even if it doesn’t effect Goku’s power scaling much, it creates the illusion that is the case from a narrative standpoint and allows Goku to be viewed in a different light from the traditional main hero role. This also brings back the nostalgia of Dragon Ball that makes the whole appeal work. The concept of Kid Goku fighting Frieza, Cell or whatever other monster of the day doesn’t captivate that same feel of young Goku gathering the dragon balls in his wacky quest.
Some may argue,
“Well, a lot of people give Super flack for reusing a lot of nostalgic elements like Frieza, Kaioken, Potara-fusing, Broly and many others. What excuses GT for basically coping the original series?” That’s a good point, but I personally can rationalize it by saying it’s using an original concept but bringing enough new to the table to make the concept its own thing without being an echo of a previous idea. I don’t have a problem with a series reusing a concept as long as it’s done with enough originality or offered with interesting story-mechanics. I liked the idea of Potara fused Zamasu in DBS for example, but I didn't feel like we needed ANOTHER potara fusion with Vegito.
Kid Goku gathering the dragon balls BUT with Z-power scales, new exploration on a much bigger scale and different character dynamics to bounce off of gives the idea more merit beyond just copy and paste. As oppose to just bring Frieza back to just have a fight with Goku doesn’t offer the some dynamic storytelling as the previously stated one.
It’s also easier to doing the more comedic elements of Dragon Ball such as slapstick or gag humour with Kid Goku than it is with a more adult Goku. Toriyama at his core, is a gag artist and his style blends better with a more child-like Goku who’s viewed as childish rather than moronic is more endearing than DBS Goku. It's hard to balance the serious tone of Z with the gag-nature of the original series. Both series sometimes succeed and most times they can fall a bit flat. But I can enjoy GT's attempts with reverse-physical comedy with a child Goku than I am at dumbing down it's adult protagonist for goofs and gaffs. It also offers some neat juxtaposition to people's expectations when Kid Goku get's serious. GT Goku had a silly streak but knew we to get serious. DBS Goku can be serious but usually (not always) opts for the "Haha! Goku's so dumb!" Rather anything new or fresh to his existing character beyond "punch and eat".
The only major problems I have with this arc is random characters such as Rildo or Ledgic being able to combat Super Saiyan level opponents. It made me question how someone like Frieza could conquer most of the universe if there was so many dudes hanging around that outclass him. The Luud segment was very...Creepy at times and could of been a bit more tasteful in my opinion, but never enough to the point I wanted to check-out. Even Pan's characterization (as annoying as it is) never got to the point I wanted to drink bleach. Perhaps because I was younger or the moments where she interacts with Goku are endearing, I just didn't despise her like Caulifa or Bra. Same with Trunks. I liked his character in GT. He was nervous, exasperated and often the voice of reason but was more of a character in GT than Super/DBM.
Never the less, I enjoyed the idea of this arc, there was a lot of padding and filler-style content but brought enough to the table I was willing to go “Ok, let’s see where this goes.”
Overall arc: 3/5Baby Arc:The first “real” GT arc in most viewer’s eyes, the Baby arc is one of two concepts of GT (the other being the Shadow Dragons) that are absolutely stellar ideas that could have been executed so much better. A parasitic creature than processes the protagonist’s friends and family so they can’t simple punch to beat? Plus an interesting reintroduction of a Tuffles by providing an antagonist with legitimate reasons to hate Goku and co while possibly be a more morally grey character with sympatric overtones? Sounds good! Too bad, Baby as a character comes across as a villainous hypocrite rather than a more morally grey villain who feel compelled to engage in evil due to circumstances beyond their control or anyone committing necessary evil.
Then he processes Vegeta and repeats the Majin Vegeta arc without the hint of Vegeta’s development and complex undertones. Speaking of Vegeta, GT makes him a mixed bag for me. I hate how shafted he gets in favour of Goku like most of the cast (Insert Goku Time) and think his design looks plain bad (Haircut, moustache and hot pants….Eurgh). However, I do give props to some of his characterisation: He has fully-accepted the Earth as his home and now longer harbours any-ill will to Goku beyond grumpy typical Vegeta stuff. His character arc has come full-circle with him declaring the earth is his home and wishing to protect its people. His last words to Pan in GT were quite sentimental and I like how Vegeta has matured from his Saiyan days to actually suggesting the idea of fusion himself and acting like an actual dad. I do think Super does this aspect well too but at the expense of some of Vegeta’s development being scrapped.
Getting back on topic, Like I said, great idea but poor execution. Baby as a character still offers some good narrative obstacles thanks to his biology and manipulation of man-kind. It’s just the missed potential that bothers me more. He could have been so much more than another Hatchiyack and offer some narrative weight. But Dragon Ball from a story-stand point has never had a very complex view of morality. Characters like Vegeta and Buu being pardoned from their previous crimes by the cast highlight that morality in Dragon ball equates to “Be Good or be bad.” Having a morally complex villain that offers philosophical views wouldn’t blend well with Dragon Ball. It’s hard to debate such statements of “Are Saiyans worthy of a chance of redemption” or “Are Morals inherently selfish or is it our culture?” When your main characters just want to punch shit.
As for the arc itself, it does offer some good dilemmas for Goku and co and even makes use of Elder Kai and Supreme Kai being useful. We have the introduce to the golden great ape and have a rather tender emotive moment with Pan that signifies a transformation on a more meaningful, emotional level rather than transform for the sake of transforming. Super Saiyan 4 is a fine addition to the series of transformations:
Design-wise, a lot of people give it flack. However, I do think its design, while somewhat silly with the regenerating pants is still better than the design of lacklustre SSJB. Plus the implications of SSJ4’s mechanics of fusing the traditional utility of Super Saiyan with the more ferocious great ape creates a really primal dynamic to the series and offers a form with unique mechanics beyond simple stamina usage.
A lot of the problems of this arc comes down from wasted potential. Majuub (another interesting idea of Majin fusion) ultimately results in nothing aside from giving Baby great ape heart-burn. SSJ4 while impressive with his battles against Baby and his slightly more ridiculous-looking great ape form, is downgraded slightly after requiring everyone’s energy rather than letting the main cast contribute such as adult Gotenks. However, the blutz wave’s generator is a clever idea to power-up Baby using Saiyan biology rather than a traditional power-up via screaming or being mad. Coupled with a few dynamic moments: Golden ape, SSJ4, Great ape baby, 10X Kamehameha vs Super Galick Gun, Kamehameha straight to the sun etc…
Overall this arc had some really great ideas but fell short of greatness via execution and could of become a great piece of dragon ball media on par with it’s more stellar content but fell short when it came to delivering some great aspects that would of improved the overall arc.
4/5Super 17 Arc:This arc’s a bit of a weird one to be honest. There are two aspects that I really thought had promise and intrigue. All the villains escaping hell was a fun idea because it’s always entertaining to see returning antagonists duel with the current-scale heroes to see funny exchanges and re-act some what-if concepts. The other being 17. 17 is rather underused character that’s only really had his presence be known in earlier Cell saga, GT and Super. I thought the design of Super 17 was pretty cool and I liked his energy absorption gimmick. He renders all energy-based attacks useless and has the signature android stamina that never tires.
This allows him to be an excellent combatant to the Z-Fighters and makes him more unqiue…Except….The whole idea of him being created and equalling SSJ4 is quite frankly…DUMB. Even if we ignore the fact that it's complete filler that villains keep their bodies, How the
HELL (Pun not intended) did Dr Gero and DR Myuu create a damn laboratory and go undetected in the middle of
HELL without anyone finding out besides this?! This still doesn't justify Super 17 suddenly being so damn strong.
Cell + 17 + 18 = SSJ1-2 Tier.
17 + 17 =SSJ4 Tier? What?!His whole fusion from hell and being so vastly powerful is so out of nowhere and not impactful that he feels like a filler villain. Having only 4-5 episodes before being eliminated. Even ROF Frieza had a longer run than Super 17. One way it could have been much better is if Goku was trapped in hell alongside all his former enemies. It makes a great character dynamic for him to be facing off with all his old foes and let’s the Z-Fighters fight the big bad for once without Goku. One aspect about this arc I did like was Piccolo helping Goku out of hell and being somewhat useful to the plot. I thought that has sacrifice in the intermission episodes was unneeded but delivered in terms of emotional investment. The music, the last words to Gohan and Goku, his entire sacrifice. I felt this was a proper farewell to a beloved character than killing him off for the sake of forced drama in an arc that doesn't ultimately matter......
As for the conflict between the Z-Fighters and 17, we had a brilliant chance of having the main cast beat the big bad while Goku cannot save the day:
This could have been the introduction to Vegta going SSJ4 and using it to finally defeat the big bad and finally have Vegeta defeat a main antagonist instead of jobbing or defeating the 2nd guy up. Although we do get a tender moment with Krillin and 18 which leads to 18 being useful in defeating Super 17 and letting some nice character interaction between the cast and the cool moment of Goku’s dragon fist.
Maybe I’m a bit biased because I’ve liked the idea of the Dragon Fist being this aesthetically-cool looking move that’s monstrously powerful so he cannot use it all the time. It’s a nice throwback to Kid Goku’s attack against King Piccolo and since GT Uses Z-Filler and movies, it’s a nice return of a cool move and actually one of Goku’s only original technique that he didn't nab of someone's else. I do like how GT uses the filler elements to give them more meaning. The Garlic Jr saga even gets some forms of relevance with the sacred water playing a big part in the storyline and the dragon fist returning. It's just these elements always have a counter-point such as the creation of Super 17 that proves it to be a double-edge sword when using expansive canon to enhance your story.
It always annoyed me in DBM how Vegito has dragon fist but not Goku which takes away from Goku’s ability to formulate new attacks and strategies.
Overall: Super 17 has a nice idea for a fighter and creates a cool setting , but at the expense of wasting the cast, the canon, and being very forgettable and contrived.
2/5 Shadow Dragons Arc: Oh boy, the big one. One of the most interesting concepts in the entirety of Dragon ball is this arc right here. I agree 100% with Ashanark that this arc is the perfect way to cap and end the entire series. The Dragon Balls, the macguffin of the entire series: the reset button, the premise of the original series and an iconic symbol of the series longevity is now THE biggest threat to the cast and brings forth the Elder Kai’s warnings of abusing them too much. The magic wish orbs that have reversed so many terrible events and have been taken for granted so much have spawned a titanic threat that the main heroes themselves are responsible for.
This isn’t just a good concept, it’s a GREAT concept. It’s years of storytelling building up in the grand payoff of 10+ of storytelling! Each villain representing a key moment in the canon's history with plenty of interactions between the cast. Plus, there's seven of these guys?! How can the heroes possibly beat them all?! This is surely going to be the arc to end all arcs, right? RIGHT?!
RIGHT!?!.....But like the Joker once stated in the Batman Beyond special “Kinda like the kid who peeks at his Christmas presents, I must admit, it’s sadly anti-climactic”. The whole arc is executed very poorly with the badly-designed Shadow dragons who are akin to cartoon characters that the ultimate threat. Sure, Toriyama and the typical flow of Dragon Ball is to defy our expectations of how a powerful character should be AKA: Frieza for example. But those character designs were still imposing, sleek and unique. They weren't for the most part, dumb for the sake of being dumb.
"Look how different we are! Ooh, aren't we something quirky!" The problems only get worse from there with the cast consisting of only using Goku and Pan, and offering nothing interesting or unique beyond go fight the bad guys. No unique character interactions outside the Dragons themselves talking about the wishes that spawned them. There's some intrigue there for certain, but GT never bothers to go into depth with these shining moments. It's like offering a thirsty person a whole-some glass of milk before pouring most of it away. Yeah, you still have a drink, but there was so much more to it! It's not ALL awful though as It gains a bit more of its appeal when the later shadow dragons such as Nova and Syn are introduced who do sport some semblance of personality (even if the big bad of the series AKA Omega is Looney Toons level of cartoon villainy). Hell, some of the designs for these dragons you can tolerate (I like the eastern Dragon whiskers for example on Omega) but by then we’d had 5 Shadow dragons with annoying personalities, NO personalities, bland designs, just plain-WEIRD designs:
.......No comment.....Plus the rest of the cast on the bench doing nothing to help outside perhaps Vegeta is just so damn annoying. What happened to Majuub's potenial? Goten or Trunks? I appreciate them growing up and gaining personalities of their own (Something even DBM hasn't done) but aside from Trunks early on in the series, they don't do anything! Even Gohan has been given the bench-warming position. He's treated better than early DBS but ultimately provides nothing. Bulma is used to as the macguffin for Vegeta's SSJ4 but aside from that, This arc suffers the MOST from
Goku Time. At least in the Baby Arc, they were obstacles for the heroes and in Super 17 they TIRED But here? Nothing.
The saving graces of this arc is the introduction are as follows:
1)Vegeta having SSJ4. While being a bit late to the party and not really accomplishing much, it’s at least nice that a character besides Goku is contributing to the plot. As I stated earlier, I think vegeta going SSJ4 earlier and fighting Eis and Nove shenron together with Goku would have been great.
2)The fusion of Gogeta himself. I like Vegeta offering the idea to Goku instead of DBS
“Grrrrrr MY PRIDE!” and Gogeta making an appearance in canon (at least anime-wise) and having a pretty-cool looking design.
The way the red hair compliments the fusion outfit is very nice, visually speaking. He’s so damn powerful he treats Omega Shenron like he’s nothing but I dislike the fact Gogeta wastes so much time clowning around. This was Vegito’s shtick and even then he only did it to bait Buu into absorbing him. This makes gogeta look rather stupid in comparison to fusion reborn who was pretty “Let’s get this over with”. I do get the feel that Gogeta is a more powerful fusion SSJB vegito in presence. In terms of power it’s up for debate, but watching SSJ4 Gogeta toy around with someone as powerful as Omega Shenron give me this feel of this is an unbeatable fusion. Sadly, undermined by the time-limit and Gogeta’s out-of-character shenanigans.
3)The universal spirit bomb is a nice-way to end the series. It’s basically the Kid Buu fight but on a much larger scale. I like how the whole cosmos is helping Goku defeat the big bad because it’s symbolism of how much Goku has saved the universe so many times, so it was nice for the universe to do him a favour instead. It signifies the ending of Dragon Ball with everyone helping beat the ultimate evil and depending on who you ask, the ending of Goku’s tale and fading into legend. It’s a very well-done scene and possibly saves the entire arc from being absolute shambles. It’s the reverse Goku Black arc basically.
The only other aspects I like are more dragon fist and silly moments like Goku eating a dragon ball but that’s about it.
Overall: Fantastic idea, VERY bad execution, saved by a few factors towards the end with an ending that’s really well-done
(Aside from Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr...What was fanfic levels of WTF) But overall a fantastic ending involving a lot of nice concluding moments between Piccolo, Krillin, Roshi Vegeta and Pan and a retro-respective look back on the series as a whole was a nice sentiment to conclude on.
![]()
3/5GT Overall rating: I’d give it a 3/5. It’s nowhere near the
“WORST THING TO HAPPEN TO DBZ!” and as an anime itself? It’s perfectly serviceable objectively-speaking. It does a lot things right and offers some pretty inspired interesting concepts by Toei of all people. It just drops the ball so many damn times that it fails to do anything truly brilliant with the series. I think GT is missed potential and if it had some really dedicated writers it could truly be a brilliant sequel. I do think people give GT a hard time for not living up to the mantle of Z, and I certainly have had said bad things about GT in the past. But looking back on it, I can at least appreciate the risks it tried with something new and risking its series by going beyond Z rather than stay in it’s comforts like DBS. Ultimately GT is wasted potential and often doesn’t realize what it’s holding.
It’s inherently got better ideas than DBS. I liked the Black arc for the most part but I guarantee you that a decent-written Baby arc is better than a decent-written black arc.
It's interesting to me how it seems GT starts off rather poorly but picks up stream at the end of the arc, while Super's arcs start off promising but miss the mark so much at the end.
I’ll probably cover SUPER in another thread later down the road as this will become a Trump-level wall of text if I don’t! Feel free to disagree with me or stated your own opinions below and lets get this convo rolling!
PS: GT's original BGM is MILES better than the english one. Come on Funi? You replace Falconer with "WELCOME TO THE GRAND TOUR"?! 
