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Post by Xeno Black on Feb 18, 2018 21:24:42 GMT
For starters both are not perfect "sequels" (if Super is even called that) for DBZ. They both had their fair amount of issues whether it was due to animation, plot projection, music choices (GT's English intro sucks), character development, transformations (only for Super), world building, drama, favoritism, and in-universe motives for some characters. However.... Hate it or love it, GT at the end of the day is superior than Super. And to make my points fair, I will compare GT only to the anime version since the GT has no manga equivalent or two movies that became basic retellings for the anime. To start real tension was inside of GT since the black star dragon balls over usage threatened to destroy Earth, Baby infecting everyone, and the shadow dragon's overwhelming might nearly destroyed the whole universe (and preventing the DB's usage and making the namekian ones suspect). This is fantastic on many grounds while preventing the greatest hax power from being used in certain instances. In Super however the dragon balls (all variants), Whis temporal do-over, and possibly the time ring can prevent or reverse all wrongdoings throughout Super. Golden Frieza entire arc with him destroying the Earth can be prevented by two of the aforementioned things (with one actually occurring). A total waste with no tension! The U6 Tournament also had no true tension since even if the heroes lost, they would have simply went to the U6 universe with plot armor saving them from Beerus wrath. Black saga was the only decent arc, but even still any hakaishin or Zeno could defeat Zamasu if given the chance. He was doomed to fail despite having the means necessary via super shenron to kill all mortals. The fool! And the ToP entire buildup is destroyed since we all know that Eoz has to occur, making everything feel lackluster. And the fighting and power scaling within Super is either on and off or outrageous. At least GT is more balanced in the power scaling though some fights either suck, are mediocre, too short, or just right (Omega vs Goku and Vegeta or Goku vs Baby Vegeta are prime examples). But since Super "tries" (cant believe such nonsense is actually true) to be a decent sequel, it fails us on trying to live up to its mantle of being "Super". It was overly hyped that promised greatness, but the inconsistencies (power scaling for starters), unnecessary transformations (Super Saiyan Rage and Vegeta's new Blue form), pitiful filler (besides the Hit arc), nonsensical actions in-universe, assassination of Goku's heroic qualities and ever-expanding foolishness, and constant attention to Goku and Vegeta makes this series fall hard. The English dub makes it more bearable, but the series as a whole fails despite whoever is voicing it. And the fact it is a damn interquel makes it basically a filler story in it itself. At least GT goes beyond EOZ, not before it. To be brutally honest the Black star saga could have easily been prevented if Goku and the gang simply used either the regular dragon balls or nameks to return the black stars back to Earth. This was a foolish mistake on the writers on GT on not addressing on this huge oversight. Why travel across the entire cosmos when the problem could have been handsomely fixed? And as for the shadow dragons, the regular balls were never used once in GT until at the end of the Super 17 arc, yet during said arc the balls just magically begin to crack. Why? Why then and there when they could have easily cracked during their last known usage in the Buu saga. If it truly is from the appearance of all of the revived villains collective dark ki spreading then that is the lamest excuse for the start of the shadow dragons saga. Did they forgot that Earth was already filled with dark ki when Baby possessed everyone? Headaches like this makes GT suffer as a whole. Now one thing that Super is better than GT was having a better beginning. Battle of Gods Arc triumphs over the Black Star Balls by miles. A clear cut villain appears, great fighting takes place, and a satisfying conclusion that leaves you hungry for more is established in Super. Plus it has proper build-up, something I find to be necessary in good storytelling. Something not so seen in GT. In Gt we are just simply thrown into the time-skip and have Goku immediately becoming a child, no cool establishments between GT and EOZ in the form of build-ups (Goten and Trunks growing up, Gohan raising his family, Pan's slow maturation, Uub's progress, etc), and drawn out episodes with minimum good action. In fact only Ledgic, Mutchy Mutchy, and Lord Luud were the only good things in that arc. The rest was dragged on trash will little to no substance (remember trunksette anyone?). On the Baby Arc (the moment they land on Planet M-2) was where GT gets interesting. A stark contrast compared to Super's strong start and lame Golden Frieza arc. And GT keeps it up until the Super 17 arc, a rehash or Fusion Rebron. Super kicks back up during the Black Arc, but falls apart when ToP starts. The reversal for GT since it becomes good again the moment the Shadow Dragons start. Honestly the likes of Nuova Shenron is better than nearly every newly introduced character in the ToP. Not even Jiren, Toppo, Bergamo, Dyspo, or Kefla are as good as Nuova's limited appearances. Shows just how much better GT is at introducing likable and and memorable sub-villains (though Hit is up there). Just like many others, but Vegeta's initial appearance was blasphemy beyond all levels of comprehension in GT. I am so glad that Bra told him to shave his mustache (which magically granted him more muscle mass, better looking hair, cloths, and a cooler demeanor) since he looked like a total scrub in those episodes. Now him wearing full human clothing is a nice anesthetic to his physical evolution (post mustache of course), but his personality is where he shines the most. He is far more mature and not as reckless he once was. I like this since he has grown. Now his original hairstyle would still be nice to see on him, but at least the post-mustache variant is okay to the eyes. But when possessed by Baby or as a SSJ4, he looks badass whether you like Vegeta or not. And despite how useless the Final Shine Attack was, it nice to see that Vegeta at least had a new attack, a testament of his new training (despite still being inferior to Goku or not achieving SSJ3) And to continue a little bit more on GT's vices, aspects associated with "Goku Time", the poor character crew (instead of Goku, have Goten, Trunks, Maron, Bulla, and Uub assist Pan for the dragon balls as Goku simply tags behind just in case), no Gotenks, crappy treatment Gohan gets, rush feel of the Super 17 arc and ridiculous power scaling (still love Super 17's design however), and the fact only Goku and Pan hunt down the shadow dragons are my biggest complaints. But at least the story is linear and not afraid to venture into new territories. It advances unlike Super's permanent stasis and nonsensical time mechanics. To this day I still cannot understand the laws of time within Super. In Z it was understandable since there is four timelines tops (unless you go by the anime's logic that another Future Trunks appeared that started Perfect Cell's timeline), something that becomes messed up thanks to Gowasu's time ring and introduction to Xenoverse's logic. How can you mess up such a simple and easy formula beforehand? Plus the uselessness of the other universes besides 6, 9, 10, and 11 is a darn shame. Four of them are practically clean with the others having traits that are simply disgusting (too much love in 2, 4 being a useless fairy tale, 3 seemingly boring and stiff despite technological advancements). Now I can go a little bit more, but GT wins out for me. Now it is true I was a harsher on GT than Super in this post, but GT as a whole works out so much more than Super. Now don't get me wrong beauty is found within them both, but GT at least has meaningful transformations (SSJ4 over Rage any day), has potential for a sequel (like a AF story with SSJ5 battling namek's shadow dragons), a ideal Goku derived from EOZ, and a straight plot direction. Qualities I find to be more befitting as a proper "sequel" than Super. Now if Super was done right from A to Z (proper power scaling, diverse character attention such as Gohan getting love or Tien, meaningful power increase for Frieza upon revival, tension-filled U6 tournament, more backstories such as for Hit and Frost, Zamasu and Black being more fleshed out with more realistic motives happening exclusively in the main timeline [no future trunks], and a epic ToP with interesting characters with proper buildup with Goku actually acting like he does in Z), Super would be given a solid 10/10 in my eyes. As a child I would say that Super is the best, but as a adult it sucks despite having some occasional good fighting. A darn shame to my most cherished childhood past time since the age of 5. It like whenever I look at this franchise continuing progression, it gets worse and worse. At this point Dragon Ball should have ended permanently in the 90's. At least in the legal field. Only the fans can keep it fresh and exciting either in novel or comic form. Perhaps a series of movies will still make Dragon Ball "fun and exciting", but as a anime series in today's world it is mediocre. And to think its "children" (One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, Toriko, Fairy Tail, etc) are seen as being better than Super raises many red flags to me. But it is what it is, right?
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Post by Axalon on Feb 18, 2018 21:40:18 GMT
For the sake of this comparison this will be using the Japanese subs, since the dub occasionally mangles things and makes it worse. While this could be an amusing exercise in and of itself, these shows are bad enough without this form of comparison. I've decided for the first comparison not to compare transformations (since Conqueror Geng did that already, though I'll probably weigh in on them later) or even seasons. Let's go by just the first episode, and then branch out to seasons from there. First impressions are often make-or-break situations. The opening song:GT's opening features Goku getting turned into a child again and is a bunch of clips of Goku, Trunks and Pan exploring different planets and fighting random things on alien worlds. They crash their ship into a tree, Goku is randomly naked in a couple of shots, then their ship is getting shot at and suddenly Goku is blasting something and Trunks has a sword and is slicing something and then a pink ostrich eats a dragon ball and the crew is chasing after that but then they beat the crap out of some giant knight that looks like something from Dark Souls and then ends with a shot of the three main characters of the arc, Kid Goku, Pan and Trunks. It captures the original DB adventure aesthetic very well, even if what happens in the opening doesn't actually ever happen in the show itself and is a random mish-mash of clips. The song is nice. Super's first opening is a montage of various things. It starts with a starry background and a sun, transits to Goku and Goten farming and getting screeched at by Chi-Chi, cuts to other characters' domestic lives like the Vegeta and Gohan families, then suddenly these two spinning blue people with two spinning evil looking purple cat people appear, then Vegeta, Goku and Gohan are beating the crap out of random Frieza soldiers only to get replaced by Mr. Satan posing with Jaco and Gotenks who de-fuses then gets glomped by Majin Buu, the Son family then powers up and transforms to their at-the-time maximum power, Goku poses a bit, then it ends on a group shot with everyone from DBZ. Both openings are equally chaotic with a whole lot of "what is even happening right now" mixed in with a couple of more domestic shots. I personally like GT's song more than DBS's first attempt, so GT gets more points in that category. Subjective opinion I know, but whatever. In terms of openings I'll give it to GT.The actual episodes themselves: GT Episode 1: A Devastating Wish" / "The Mysterious Dragon Balls Activate!! Son Goku Becomes A Child!?
We open with everyone's favorite DB villain Pilaf at the controls of some machine as he approaches Kami's Lookout. They're getting some strange readings from within the Lookout, which turns out to be Goku and Uub training and generally about to destroy the entire place. The entire Lookout is cracked and there are explosions blasting out the windows and everything. It's basically the worst the Lookout has been since Buu destroyed it. Dende and POPO are freaking out as the place starts exploding even more. Pilaf and crew eventually climb their way up and get promptly blasted by one of the many explosions into a chamber, where they discover the Black Star Dragon Balls.
Pilaf is naturally after the DBs once again for world domination. Goku and Uub finish training, and they both promptly collapse. Dende gives the rather odd comment of "Popo! See to their injuries!". It's odd because, y'know, it's freaking DENDE. DENDE THE WHITE MAGE. Use your healing powers Dende! Pilaf gives a little bit of exposition on the BSDBs explaining that they're different from the normal ones because these ones were created before Piccolo and Kami split into their own separate halves. Pilaf further explains that these DBs are even more powerful because the Kami that created them at the time, the Nameless Namekian, was vastly more powerful than the Kami we know now so correspondingly the BSDBs are that much more powerful over the regular ones.
This of course brings up the question: How does Pilaf know about these things? Did King Piccolo sit them down one day and regale them with the tale of the Black Star DBs back during the King Piccolo saga? It's the only plausible explanation so I'll stick with that one.
Anyway, the BSDBs are disturbingly kept in a giant pot full of skeletons. Pretty creepy there Kami. Dende probably doesn't even know about these things, so he's not to blame at least. Uub says he has to leave and go visit his family but thanks Goku for training him and Dende/POPO for letting him stay there. Dende says it's cool and not to worry about it because the Earth would've been destroyed if they had trained there and not here. Pilaf in the meantime has gathered the BSDBs and proceeds to summon ULTIMATE SHENRON, who positively dwarfs regular Shenron and Porunga, though in turn is dwarfed by Super Shenron over in DBS. ULTIMATE SHENRON actually looks pretty cool, and the increased size makes him look more dramatically imposing than normal Shenron, who's become old hat.
Naturally this gets the attention of Goku, who was literally IN THE NEXT ROOM when they tried this stunt. Where are Dende and POPO? Why haven't they also come running? Goku recognizes them but Pilaf doesn't recognize Goku at first, then orders him to be killed. This naturally doesn't work, prompting Pilaf to complain that if only Goku were a child, he'd be easier to deal with. ULTIMATE SHENRON takes this as a wish, and turns Goku back into a kid. Dende doesn't know what to do, so he contacts King Kai, who sadly is still dead. Nonetheless, King Kai has a little bit of a freak out as King Kai normally does and explains that the only way to return Goku to normal is to use those same DBs to undo the wish. This actually makes sense, given that the BSDBs are more powerful than the regular DBs and even the NDBs, so they can't just use the weaker dragons to undo the wish of the stronger dragons.
POPO then explains that the BSDBs scatter to the four corners of the universe, not just Earth, so finding them will be more difficult. We then cut to some random thugs taking a guy hostage. Goku is nearby pigging out as Goku does. Roshi is randomly in the city, perving out as Roshi does. We're then (re)introduced to Pan, who like Uub has grown up a bit since EoZ. She's on a date with some guy, but the date can't happen because of the aforementioned hostage-takers. A shootout with the police happens, which destroys the restaurant Goku's eating at. Both Goku and Pan are now sufficiently annoyed to go see what all the racket is about. Goku prepares to take on the thugs but Pan tosses him out of the way in an attempt to protect him, not realizing that it's Goku. This leads to the second action scene of the episode, which is Pan easily taking out the bank robbers.
Roshi finally blunders his way onto the scene calling for Pan, which is how Goku initially figures out who Pan even is. Goku not recognizing Pan actually makes sense, given that he's spent the last few years exclusively with Uub and Dende. Pan likewise can be forgiven for not realizing that her grandfather is now younger than she is. Roshi and Goku catch up for a bit, and then we cut to Chi-Chi over at Gohan's house and she's sad that now Goku has become young while she's gotten even older. King Kai interrupts and somehow he's discovered more information about the BSDBs. (From who? From what?) They destroy the planet they're used on one year after they're used.
The episode ends. Super Episode 1: The Peace Prize. Who Will Get The 100 Million Zeni? We open with a rehash clip show using DBZ clips of Goku defeating Kid Buu, with the narrator explaining that "some time" has passed afterwards. How much exactly? I dunno, "some time". Goten looks identical to the Buu Saga though, so apparently not much time later. The episode then opens up with a new, more modern art style different enough from the reused DBZ clips to be noticeable with Goku plowing a field with his tractor. Goten flies in and brings him lunch, so Goku eats and begins some training and lets Goten drive the tractor around. I could make a TFS style joke about Goku being a horrible parent, but I shall resist. Goten isn't paying attention and drives the tractor off a cliff leading to the first "danger" moment of DBS with "Oh no! Goku's son has driven a tractor off a cliff!" With some other normal family this would indeed be a chilling prospect to face, but Goku just uses his Instant Transmission and saves Goten and the tractor. Really he just saved the tractor, since Goten himself was in no danger whatsoever from a fall that absurd thanks to being a Saiyan hybrid.
Some more exposition is given in that Goku is farming to raise some money and that the Ox-King had a fire at his castle so the Son family can't rely on his treasure anymore. We then cut to a random alien planet of pig people making food in a frightened manner and presenting them to a purple cat person, introduced as Beerus. He declares he likes the taste of the food, but it's too fatty. He ends up destroying half of the planet and then leaves. We then abruptly cut to Mr. Satan receiving the World Peace Prize and typicall Satan bragging about how now his name is spread through the universe and is then interrupted by Buu complaining that he's hungry. Satan is able to pass off that Buu is his apprentice and continues his usual charlatan shenanigans. Then we cut to Videl buying Gohan a book with Piccolo creepily spying on them from afar.
This leads to the exposition that Gohan and Videl are getting married, which prompts Trunks and Goten into wanting to get them a gift for their wedding. They eventually decide on some kind of lotion or moisturizer for Videl, then change it to water from a hot spring after hearing an old man complain that the lotions are too overpriced and that the hot spring near where he lives is better. The two eventually forego the hot spring because a bunch of old people are sitting in it and go for the crystal clear water of some lake. The two are then ambushed by a giant snake, leading to the biggest action setpiece of the episode.
Goten and Trunks fight a giant snake over a jug of water. Yes. That is it.
They vanquish the giant snake and bring the "lotion" to Videl, who instantly figures out that it's just water but plays along so as to not hurt their feelings. We then cut to Satan visiting Goku and explaining that he was given a lot of prize money for "saving" the world but he wants to give it to Goku since he was the one who did the saving. He apparently tried Vegeta first, but was turned down. After explaining exactly how much it is since it's too big a number for Goku to comprehend the money is initially refused by Goku, but Goten convinces him to take it since Chi-Chi would be happy with that much and then Goku could go train. She is indeed happy with it, and Goku goes off to go train at King Kai's. Roshi runs in saying the money should be used to buy a bunch of porn and gets promptly kicked out. We are then jarringly cut to something serious with the Old Kai and Kibitokai noting that a planet has mysteriously disappeared.
The end. GT vs Super, 1st Episode Battle:GT 1st Episode Pros:- Introduces new main character (Pan) and shows her headstrong personality and what she can do via her fight with the bank robbers. - Has taken the conclusion to DBZ and built off of it - Sets the stage for exploring the entire UNIVERSE because of the BSDBs - Establishes that the planet is in danger not from a new EVIL PERSON, but from magic that can only be stopped by going out to the far reaches of space - Some of the logic is inherent. Shenron can't undo a wish by ULTIMATE SHENRON because he's a weaker dragon. Only ULTIMATE SHENRON can undo it. The same logic applies to Porunga. GT 1st Episode Cons:- Goku's a kid again? Seriously? - How does Pilaf even know about the BSDBs? I speculated above that King Piccolo must've told them about it, since I can't think of any other way to find them. - Why have they never been detected before with previous attempts at finding the regular DBs? Perhaps they give off a different signature? - Why did Dende/POPO react so slowly to ULTIMATE SHENRON? Not that they could've done anything. - Why do the BSDBs destroy the planet they're on after a year? Super 1st Episode Pros:- Like GT it establishes the nature of the threat, in this case being Beerus who casually destroys half a planet by tapping his finger on a table. - Satan not hogging everything and at the very least attempting to help Vegeta and Goku financially is nice, and shows that he's begun integrating with the Z Fighters after helping out with Buu. - If you like random DB wackiness, maybe you get a kick out of Goten and Trunks fighting a snake? - Beerus is awesome (subjective opinion I know). He demonstrates a precision with his destructive power that no villain has ever shown so far. Super 1st Episode Cons:- Interquel for DBZ. They either have to retcon EoZ by the time DBS is finished, or make everything align towards EoZ. DBGT at least has a solid foundation to start with. - The action highlight is Goten and Trunks fighting a giant snake. Unlike with Pan, this does nothing to show off Goten or Trunks' capabilities because we already know they're way stronger. - Currently there's no link to Beerus and Earth. Menacing music at the end of the episode is great and all, but for now Beerus is out there doing his thing and Goku is on Earth doing his thing. When Frieza destroyed a random planet, did the Kais also stare up into the heavens going "Oh no, another planet is destroyed?" - The episode actually tried to play Goten falling off a cliff as being a threat. C'mon now. - Aside from Beerus being introduced, did anything important actually happen in this episode? All in all I'd say GT wins. Honestly? I was expecting GT to come out the worse for wear in basically every match up but so far I've been surprised. Super's first episode is by all intents and purposes a filler episode with the only major thing happening being introducing Beerus and Whis. Super is also leaning on the BoG DBZ movie upon which the entire first arc is based. GT sets up the stage for the entire first arc without seeming like entirely meaningless fluff. Super has a moderately progressed timeline since Buu with Gohan and Videl getting married soon, but again that's just playing it safe compared to GT taking risks and actually skipping after DBZ entirely. Opening songs: GT 1st Episode: GT Next up will be comparing the actual first seasons of GT and Super, since there's no way in hell I'm going to do an episode-by-episode comparison for the entire show.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 4:38:14 GMT
I guess I'll say what I think each series did better than the other. It goes without saying that this is all my opinion and I'm sure there will be a lot of disagreement . GT
CharacterizationThe way the characters were depicted in GT felt like a natural continuation of the Buu saga. On the other hand, they sometimes came off as caricatures in DBS because the writers took their most known or popular character trait(s) and exaggerated the shit out of them. I think this may be a common issue when a series is brought back after such a long break. Most or all of GT's staff worked on DBZ so to them the characterization continued from where they left off whereas almost everyone working on DBS was new so they had to write the characters based on what they remember from watching the series however long ago that was. PacingBoth series had the advantage of being original stories and not having to keep up with a weekly manga. That didn't seem to help DBS all that much because they decided to stretch the hell out of Toriyama's short outlines. There were occasionally some fun slice of life episodes but a lot of it was filler that didn't really amount to anything or resulted in more inconsistencies that easily could've been avoided. MusicI enjoyed most of the music in DBS but if I had to choose I would say GT's opening theme was the most memorable. Transformation(s)SSJ4 made more sense as a final transformation by combining the preexisting SSJ and Oozaru forms. I liked the concept behind it and design (although I would've preferred if it had gold or brownish gold fur). I can't say I liked any of the transformations in DBS. If they stuck with the original idea of Goku absorbing God ki into his base and no longer needing to transform, I would've preferred that over SSJB, SSJR, and White-haired Ultra Instinct. That could've shown a fundamental difference between mortal and God ki. A regular Saiyan needs transformations so that their body could handle greater power but maybe God ki is more spiritual or something so it can be mastered in their base form. That could also relate to Old Kai's ritual. His Godly ritual thing unlocked Gohan's mortal potential and adapted it to work like God ki where it can be accessed in his base form without any strain. None of the Gods of Destruction had transformations even though they were all mortals who underwent training to control God ki so I don't know why Saiyans need so many to reach their level! DBSOriginal charactersIn GT, I liked Nova Shenron and I thought the Blackstar, Blacksmoke, and Syn Shenron were cool in terms of character design but that's about it. In DBS, Beerus was my favorite new character. We got to see Beerus develop throughout DBS and grow closer/more open towards the Z fighters. I don't think anyone else got much development in DBS aside from Cabba but some like Hit and some other tournament contestants had unique techniques or character designs that made them standout. DBS has more new characters that I'll probably remember. StoryI'll compare the sagas based on their similarities: BS balls vs BoG I liked the idea of exploring the universe but I couldn't get behind the BS balls and all the aliens they met were pretty mediocre and forgettable in my opinion. I'm not sure how strong they were supposed to be but this was the start of my indifference towards fanfics that randomly introduce aliens stronger than Freeza or Buu. It is my belief that the less you care for consistency, the less effort you'll put into creativity, the characters, story, etc and it shows in this saga! This saga led to Goku turning back into a kid but it didn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because he turned into an adult in his strongest form. BoG tried to stay more consistent with what had already been established. Beerus and Whis were gods who couldn't be sensed and it was acknowledged that Beerus and Shin were some of the worst gods in the entire multiverse which is why the Z fighters were left to deal with all the major threats. Beerus' personality was enough to get me to enjoy this film even though I didn't care much for the other concepts introduced. This was also the start of the whole overarching plot of obtaining God ki and working towards their goal of surpassing Beerus that continued until the end of DBS. Baby vs Zamasu Two foes who kinda started off mortally gray and then became full-on villains after possessing the body of a powerful Saiyan. Baby wanted to have revenge against the Saiyans but then went on to possess the entire population of Earth (I forgot if it was explained why). Zamasu wanted to eradicate unworthy mortals but then jumped to the extreme of wanting to wipe out all mortal life in the entire multiverse. In terms of fan service, the Zamasu saga wins since we got an evil Goku and the return of Future Trunks and Vegetto. In terms of motive and effectiveness of their plan, I would give it to Baby. Baby hated the Saiyans for murdering all the Tuffles while Zamasu hated Goku because Goku defeated him in a sparing match (in the anime) and was a mortal who reached the power of the gods. It would've made more sense if Goku was the first mortal to do that but I guess Zamasu never grasped that all the Gods of Destruction were mortals like Goku at one point and there could be other candidates training for the role as strong if not stronger than Goku. Thank Kami that Zamasu never learned about Jiren! Baby also wins for having a plan that at least had a chance of being successful since the people he was truing to possess where the only ones capable of stopping him. Even if by some miracle Zamasu was to complete his Zero Mortals Plan without Goku Black getting killed by guys like Jiren and Aniraza, he was still at the mercy of Zeno and the Grand Priest! The plan was basically to kill all Kaioshin and Gods of Destruction then proceed to commit mass omnicide and just hope that he's never caught by the two highest ranking and most powerful gods. The fact that Zeno showed up to the U6 vs U7 tournament proves that he occasionally observes the multiverse so he'll eventually wonder where all the gods went. Champa saga vs That one filler tournament in GT?There's not really anything in GT to compare this saga with. There was that one tournament where Goku had to participate in the children's division but that was like one or two episodes and mostly a gag. I thought the Champa saga had a fun, light-hearted tournament. It had its moments but wasn't as good as the classic tournaments in Dragonball. Super 17 vs RoFThese were two of the worst sagas in the entire franchise in my opinion so I don't really have much to say here. I can't choose one over the other since that would require me to have gotten some enjoyment out of one of them at least. Shadow Dragons vs Universe SurvivalThe Shadow Dragon saga had potential with the Dragonballs backfiring after so many years of overuse but this saga was like the epitome of a clever idea that is poorly executed. The ToP also had this problem of a good idea being poorly executed because it was presented as a battle royale with everyone fighting for survival but was basically U7 getting most of the eliminations with the other universes waiting in line to fight them. It had the highest stakes in the entire series but barely any participant was treating it that way. I liked how Vegeta was the one to bring up the Fusion Dance against Omega Shenron and they didn't have to waste time getting the shit beaten out of them first but they ruined that when Gogeta was goofing off. The only reason Vegetto was messing around with Buuhan was to get absorbed and save everyone. I would've preferred if they kept Gogeta's serious demeanor from Fusion Reborn because I felt that would've been a better ending than making a Spirit Bomb against an evil incarnate which only made it more similar to the Buu saga. Since I didn't feel either saga was executed too well, I had more fun watching the Universe Survival saga due to them bringing back some of the older cast. Overall, I think I enjoyed DBS more than GT. Both had their moments but I would personally prefer to view them as alternate universes separate from the original manga. I don't think I'll ever be able to watch either one in its entirely again to be honest but I'll still look back at my favorite moments. I watched GT as a kid immediately after DBZ and I've tried to watch it again but I had to skip through a lot of it. I'm really against a studio milking a series after the author has ended it unless they have something really worthwhile to add. Since it's something that's inevitable until they butcher it to the point that it stops making money, it's easier to view all this new content as an alternate universe. That would you could at least enjoy the fan service and not get too bothered by any of its problems. This is a really subjective topic but luckily every fan is free to have their own personal canon that could differ from the original author's which could also differ from the studio's canon. If a fan enjoyed one of these sequels over the other, they could include that in their own canon. I've seen one fan who wanted to have GT and DBS take place in the same continuity (it took a lot of fanonizing but they liked both of them enough to try!). My personal canon is the original manga, Bardock: Father of Goku, and History of Trunks and that's it for me.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Apr 11, 2018 1:40:53 GMT
Overall Music and Soundtrack
DBGT: As much as some themes were interesting, I feel they were not very memorable and genuinely lacked oomph for most of it. Most themes could not even stand on its own if nostalgia is removed. I'm talking about the Japanese version strictly (I do not know if this had English version soundtrack). It was basically the opening theme and variations of it, and no more. I think this may be one understated reason why DBGT felt so mediocre at times, it did not have a proper varied soundtrack to heighten the intensity. This was the same with early DBS, lots of music felt really empty or too flat, though it considerably improved in Zamasu saga and TOP. I don't even remember DBGT ost changing at all. In fact, I think most themes in gt were just variations of the opening (!!).
I probably should re-listen GT again since not everything is so fresh in my mind. But since I usually pay a lot attention to music and I don't remember much of it, it probably means it was nothing relevant. This is the only GT related thing I'd consider a bad-ass theme, but it's not even from GT itself. Of course, I am talking about GT FINAL BOUT theme, which was a lame game anyway:
DBSuper: Early DBSuper had this same problem of GT, though even then it fared better given that themes like Beerus Madness and Golden Freeza were present since early in the series. I do not remember much memorable music from U6 tournament, but this changed a lot in Goku Black saga. Music turned dark and cinematic. Lots of beautiful compositions and bassy, funky stuff. ToP in this case is even better, with its opening, the power metal ending, Jiren's theme, Ultra Instinct theme, Nyam bam bam theme. And of course, one of the best themes ever produced for DB: The Power to Resist. You can fell all the danger and adrenaline in this rockish song which features a filthy bass and background solos:
This is arguably even better than most what appeared even on DBZ. If DBS animation/plot directors were bad, DBS music directors and composers were top notch. It's as if they went for Potara fusing what the original DBZ japanese soundtrack did, with the electronics and rock Bruce Faulconer used in the DUB. The result in many cases went to greater heights than either of them.
The number of different compositions (most of them very fitting) is also far higher in DBSuper than in GT. This last video I posted has the whole OST for the ToP. It's almost 20 tracks of pure madness. When I say this sounds like a mix of Bruce Faulconer and original DBZ ost, I feel like the following tracks exemplify it the best: -Unwinnable Battle: This starts with a really filthy bass line with bongo wardrums with harmonized guitars on top of it, very reminiscent of what Bruce Faulconer did in his own take... yet the melody has this "japanese" character which is more familiar with the original DBZ ost. This is followed by yet another element that sounds very orchestral.
-Fierce of Battle Against a Mighty Foe is more of the same, except this played at a far faster tempo. One thing I loved about late DBS soundtrack is that they showed absolutely no hesitation in including crazy drum fills and tempo changes. It's just badass. This one starts with orchestral stuff (but with almost drum n bass rhytms) and then adds really distorted guitars.
This is the pattern followed by most of the ToP soundtrack and while it sounds cluttered or too chaotic in principle, it actually works very well. It's more "Faulconer than Faulconer" in the moments it needs to be Faulconer, and more orchestral than original dbz ost in the moments it needs to be. The music always kept me engaged to DBS even if I nearly quit a few times due to plot bullshit displayed.
Faulconer had some memorable sounds but there were many, many parts where his synths and guitars were really ill fitted. The same as original DBZ, although it had lots of 80's sounding good music, some of the orchestral elements felt a bit too high pitched and noisy.
Dragon Ball Super, surprisingly, managed to mix the two while including none of their original defects, and even had time to add additional experimentation. I was never bored musically during the ToP. I'd love to go into Zamasu saga music too, but I feel this would be beating a dead horse since I already conveyed the main point I liked later DBS soundtrack a lot.
On behalf of the second half of DBSuper, its music represents its first clear, overwhelming, perfect win over GT in this ongoing comparison. Arguably, even better than Z.
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Post by supergojita3 on Sept 25, 2018 2:04:10 GMT
I've been surfing the net and seemingly GT has come back in style for some reason.
Maybe due to dbs and it dropping the ball in some regards.
I didn't really like either, so does GT have any fans on here? and why?
I liked ssj4 and gojita, and their contribution to my videogames, but I thought GT was boring and ripped off of db and dbz too much, but dbs ripped off GT in some ways too, which was also disapointing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 2:30:57 GMT
When I first watched GT as a kid, I hated most of it to be honest. That was before I knew who Toriyama was or read the original manga. After witnessing DBS, I started having an appreciation for some of the concepts in GT and prefer how they were handled compared to DBS although there's still a lot I don't like. Overall, I think they both suffer from similar issues but they have a few good moments. It would be like if a giant sea monster swallowed a pirate ship after they plundered some treasure. Once it all comes out the other side, you might be able to find some gems in there but you'll have to dig through a lot of shit to get to them.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 25, 2018 4:15:14 GMT
I'm just going to go ahead and call this "Arkham Syndrome" after the titular Batman Arkham games created by Rocksteady. I don't know if there's another term for it (I'm sure there is) but I'm going to go ahead with this analogy since it's easiest for me to explain.
After the first two games in the series game out, Arkham Asylum and Arkham City respectively, a third game came out--Arkham Origins--which had a different dev team behind it. Many fans of the series hated this game and nitpicked it to death purely because it wasn't made by the original developers and that had they been at the helm the game would've been better, straight up. Did it have flaws? Absolutely. But I guaran-damn-tee you it wouldn't have been received as negatively before it even came out had the original developers made it. Then the original developers came back and released the fourth game, Arkham Knight. This game was...divisive. Well received, but divisive. Some elements and choices were controversial in the new game. As a result, some went back to Arkham Origins and kind of started looking favorably on what that game had done positively, despite the flaws, since now the holy grail that was the original dev team wasn't quite so unstained.
If this sounds an awful lot like DBS being more accepted because Toriyama is more involved as opposed to GT where he had far less involvement that's because it's basically the same situation. Now that DBS has pulled its own fair share of dumbass stupid moments people have gone back to GT and more readily embraced some of the concepts Toei threw out there. DBS doesn't retroactively FIX all the bad that GT did on the merits of its own faults, but it does cause some appreciation for things that may not have been there before.
Hell, I can personally relate to this, as DBS honestly made me go back and realize that even the Garlic Jr Saga had merits that I simply hadn't considered at all the first time I watched it, with it even being a breath of fresh air since Goku and Vegeta have absolutely zero presence at all in the entire story arc and it falls down to Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, and Kami to save the world. Kami! He actually does things! Of the four main heroes of this saga only one of them is a Saiyan, and it's a half-breed at that!
So yeah, GT being looked upon more favorably isn't all that surprising to me.
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Post by Jason9000 on Sept 25, 2018 8:30:31 GMT
I'm just going to go ahead and call this "Arkham Syndrome" after the titular Batman Arkham games created by Rocksteady. I don't know if there's another term for it (I'm sure there is) but I'm going to go ahead with this analogy since it's easiest for me to explain. After the first two games in the series game out, Arkham Asylum and Arkham City respectively, a third game came out--Arkham Origins--which had a different dev team behind it. Many fans of the series hated this game and nitpicked it to death purely because it wasn't made by the original developers and that had they been at the helm the game would've been better, straight up. Did it have flaws? Absolutely. But I guaran-damn-tee you it wouldn't have been received as negatively before it even came out had the original developers made it. Then the original developers came back and released the fourth game, Arkham Knight. This game was...divisive. Well received, but divisive. Some elements and choices were controversial in the new game. As a result, some went back to Arkham Origins and kind of started looking favorably on what that game had done positively, despite the flaws, since now the holy grail that was the original dev team wasn't quite so unstained. If this sounds an awful lot like DBS being more accepted because Toriyama is more involved as opposed to GT where he had far less involvement that's because it's basically the same situation. Now that DBS has pulled its own fair share of dumbass stupid moments people have gone back to GT and more readily embraced some of the concepts Toei threw out there. DBS doesn't retroactively FIX all the bad that GT did on the merits of its own faults, but it does cause some appreciation for things that may not have been there before. Hell, I can personally relate to this, as DBS honestly made me go back and realize that even the Garlic Jr Saga had merits that I simply hadn't considered at all the first time I watched it, with it even being a breath of fresh air since Goku and Vegeta have absolutely zero presence at all in the entire story arc and it falls down to Gohan, Piccolo, Krillin, and Kami to save the world. Kami! He actually does things! Of the four main heroes of this saga only one of them is a Saiyan, and it's a half-breed at that! So yeah, GT being looked upon more favorably isn't all that surprising to me. Just to show how much of a ‘hipster’ I am. I actually enjoyed Arkham Origins when it first came out. Loved the game despite the bugs I ran into while playing it. In fact I played the entire Arkham series every summer in order up until I moved to Korea and left my Xbox at home. I do like that term ‘Arkham Syndrome’. Did you come up with that yourself? I may use that more often. As for GT. I actually hated the Blackstar Arc. Z had been a more serious tone and Toei trying to combine the comedy of the original Dragon Ball made me want to blow my brains out. It wasn’t until the Baby Arc onwards did I start to like. Compared to DBS...I lean closer to GT than Super as Super’s inconsistencies and absurd power scaling stuck out more and irritated me when no explanation was given and then fans had to come up with such BS excuses it made me hate the fandom more. Honestly if it wasn’t for DBM and this forum I probably would have stopped watching Deagon Ball after the Zamasu Arc as that aggravated me to no end.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 25, 2018 15:55:42 GMT
Just to show how much of a ‘hipster’ I am. I actually enjoyed Arkham Origins when it first came out. Loved the game despite the bugs I ran into while playing it. In fact I played the entire Arkham series every summer in order up until I moved to Korea and left my Xbox at home. I do like that term ‘Arkham Syndrome’. Did you come up with that yourself? I may use that more often. I did come up with the term Arkham Syndrome, yes. To be honest, I also liked Origins when it came out as well. Best boss fights in the entire series, story was better also, and I liked the Christmas setting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 18:22:20 GMT
I think one thing that helped GT is that there is less to complain about compared to DBS. My main complaints for GT were about some of the storylines and execution. For DBS, my complaints were about certain storylines, characterization, most of the transformations and more excessive use of fan service. If I were to play Dabura's advocate and try to defend them, I feel it would require far less reaching and hand waving for GT than DBS.
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Post by iron leaf on Sept 25, 2018 18:39:30 GMT
"Arkham Syndrome" is really catchy and I support your description.
I witnessed something similar in the Star Wars franchise. Comparing the Sequels and the Prequels similar how people cmpare DBGT and DBS. The Prequels definitely resurged (there can be countless reasons, I myself think it's mostly because of the animations series, The Clone Wars). So many years after GT concluded, people start to rethink their judgement about the old series. When the Star Wars Sequels weren't around, the Prequels were pretty divisive topics. Either they were seen as utter trash or different / revolutionary. From one extreme to another. But now, more and more people try to see the merits in the Prequel. Mostly because they are disturbed on their views on the Prequels by the Sequels. Now, that there is something "new" in the franchise (a new trilogy, a new series, etc), people will compare those new things with the old things, of course. It's just natural human behaviour. The same thing I see somehow in the DB franchise. Now, after DBS ended people will naturally compare the old shows with the new one. Similar to Star Wars. In this regard, they will come to know that GT may have redeeming aspects "compared" to DBS.
I thought of some reasons, why GT is maybe so much hated psychologically rather than regarding of GT's actual content. Why there will be always hate towards GT even without objective explanations.
The False Memory Bias (or something like that).
People believe what they remember. When people recall something, they can have a lot of details or a lot of confidence, and a lot of emotions when discussing a special topic. But it's pretty easy to influence our memory. Everytime we talk about it, we add a detail and subconsciously tell our brain what we want to believe. Telling ourselves everytime something specific whether it's true or not, naturally made us believe it over time.
(For example: GT sucks. Everytime we will bring to mind our memories why we always thought GT sucks.)
This leads to another little problem. The Leading questions. They are dramatic. You will be manipulated subconsciously everytime you hear one. Expectations, repeating negative feedback & subjective valuations. Everytime there are massive GT discussions, in general, people uses those things.
And another little problem. The Social Proof Bias.
Sometimes social influence is so big that people tend to large groups conforming their believes and choices. When a person is in a situation where they are unsure of the correct way to behave, they will often look to others for clues concerning the correct behavior. This one is very tricky because it's easy to detect but still the bias most people fall for. For example. Dragonball Abridged had such an impact on the (at least English speaking) Dragonball community that it inevitably changed it somehow. The influence TFS had was immense. Yamcha sucks, Goku is braindead, Nappa is hilarious, Little Green, etc. Individualy people know those are exaggerations, but masses of people are gonna believe that.
And then we have a generation thing. There are people never watching the old shows. They just know from the general fandom's perspective, but no details. And nobody gonna do some research about the old things. So, those people are most probably fall for those biases.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 25, 2018 18:42:23 GMT
I think one thing that helped GT is that there is less to complain about compared to DBS. My main complaints for GT were about some of the storylines and execution. For DBS, my complaints were about certain storylines, characterization, most of the transformations and more excessive use of fan service. If I were to play Dabura's advocate and try to defend them, I feel it would require far less reaching and hand waving for GT than DBS. I think it helps GT that the ToP alone is almost as long as GT's entire run! So add four more seasons into the mix and there's just an overabundance of material compared to GT's.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 25, 2018 18:49:24 GMT
"Arkham Syndrome" is really catchy and I support your description. I witnessed something similar in the Star Wars franchise. Comparing the Sequels and the Prequels similar how people cmpare DBGT and DBS. The Prequels definitely resurged (there can be countless reasons, I myself think it's mostly because of the animations series, The Clone Wars). Nah, it's definitely gotta be the Prequel Memes. It's funny to think that memes that made fun of all the horrible dialogue of the prequels ended up endearing them to many people. You could say it's...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 19:06:58 GMT
I think it helps GT that the ToP alone is almost as long as GT's entire run! So add four more seasons into the mix and there's just an overabundance of material compared to GT's. True. Both series had shorter storylines than the original but DBS had a lot more filler than GT which hurt its pacing and seems to have caused more inconsistent writing between episodes. Most of the filler in DBS that didn't amount to anything was mostly redevelopment for the characters or more fan service so it could be removed with little to no impact to the story. The movie retellings alone were almost half as long as GT!
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 25, 2018 21:37:20 GMT
It's nothing all that new: people always compare the most recent product with things in their past, and it takes either a really good new product or a really bad original product for nostalgia to not flat-out win. It's a tribute to the lack of quality in both GT and Super that's there even discussion about this: if GT was good, people would like it better than Super, no question. If Super was good, GT would still be languishing in Memetic Loserland.
At their cores, I think both GT and DBS suffer from the same problem: too much Goku. Back when I first saw GT around 2006 I just couldn't get away from the fact Goku was the only relevant character. He did everything. (Uub vs. Rilldo is the only notable fight in GT won by a not-Goku good guy, and even then the "notable" part is iffy.) No only that, but no one even came close to Goku's level--in his base he could solo the entire rest of the cast put together. DBS is slightly better in this regard in that Vegeta is basically inseparable from Goku as far as screentime and is always at least on his tier; there's also a greater presence from other cast members, most notably Future Trunks but also some decent performances from other people in the ToP. But then again, DBS gave Goku four new transformations and all the best fights, so it's still basically as Goku-centric as GT was.
To answer your question, supergojita3, I'm not really a fan of GT but I am a fan of its concepts. If you look at all three of GT's main villains, each one somehow turned the heroes' strengths against them or posed threats in ways besides their power. This had never happened before in DB, and DBS certainly didn't do it, either. GT also moved some characters forward in ways I appreciated (such as Vegeta and Goten) or at least didn't regress them, while DBS can't even keep character's personalities straight from episode to episode.
If you look at DBS's story, we have: -- A new ancient bad guy shows up. (Rehash of Buu, which was a rehash of King Piccolo.) -- Frieza comes back, but stronger. (This is lowest fanfic garbage. Six-year olds write such arcs.) -- There's a tournament. (Sorry DBM, but tournament arcs are lazy writing.) -- An evil Kai tries to kill all life. -- There's another tournament. (Two tournament arcs, almost back-to-back. Just because original DB did it doesn't mean it's good writing.) As antagonists, Beerus, Hit, and Jiren have no real motivations or personal connection with the heroes. Hit and Jiren don't even really have personalities, though Hit does get a tiny little bit of character development. Frieza doesn't count because he's a reused villain. All this means the only real arc in DBS is the Zamasu arc, which is a convoluted, tensionless mess--a bunch of random concepts smushed together and topped off with an ending that Toeiyama obviously didn't realize was as dark as it was.
Compare to GT. Baby is kinda a rehash of Cell, but he's unique in that he is Dragon Ball's first and only weak villain--he's dangerous not because of his strength, but because of what he can do. Super 17 is the weakest of GT's sagas and kinda a mix of Fusion Reborn and Cell, but even so I find Super 17 interesting because he's a baddie against which energy attacks are absolutely out of the question. And Shadow Dragons, in my opinion, is one of the single best saga concepts ever invented for Dragon Ball and one of the best ways to potentially finish the series.
My point is that, ironically, GT has a lot more to offer the franchise in the future because I think its concepts were superior to DBS's. DBS should've been much better than it was. The GT writers were going at it alone in the weeks after DBZ ended and desperately trying to come up with something new to fulfill a deadline while the hype in the series was on a decline. The DBS writers had the benefit of learning from GT's mistakes, 20-ish years of ideas, greater budget and LOTS of fan support and hype...yet they didn't make anything of substance. GT tried and failed at a lot of things, but I give it more credit than I do DBS introducing Transformation of the Week Hair Color #5. Skar has also brought up before that GT doesn't retroactively hurt my DBZ viewing experience, whereas DBS does, with retcons and such.
I have no real interest in revisiting DBS. I would, however, enjoy seeing a redone Baby or Shadow Dragons saga someday.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 3:02:09 GMT
AshanarkI forgot about frustrating retcons. Overall, I feel GT was pretty harmless and could be considered like a epilogue separate from the original series. There were a few questionable plotholes but they were mostly self contained within GT. On the other hand, DBS has various pointless retcons and revelations that change our perception of certain characters/events and sometimes retroactively make characters look stupider. The sad thing is that almost all of these retcons could be removed with little no impact on the story. Something else that might make fans look back more positively at GT is that, compared to most fanfiction, it's still somewhat conservative. The problem with DBS isn't that it uses common fanfic tropes because there are only so many ideas can come up with but the fact it takes them to far more ridiculous levels than any fanfic has ever done. Some examples: -In fanfiction, a Frost Demon has been training for decades or goes through some crazy means to power-up. In DBS, Freeza reaches God tier in four months. -In fanfiction, the most I've seen is one or two recolored transformations. DBS has one for almost every single color. -GT has two scientists work together to build another #17 and have him fuse with the original while also being able to absorb energy to reach SSJ4 tier. Other stories I've seen try to give the cyborgs some kind of upgrade in addition to training. DBS has #17 train in normal Earth's gravity on his own and beat up average humans for a few years. -I've seen an evil Goku who hit his head and regained some of his original Saiyan programming or one possessed by an evil parasite. DBS wins for having the craziest origin for an evil Goku with a Kaioshin somehow hauling around planet sized Dragonballs between two universes so he could wish to switch bodies with Goku. -DBM Broly's power needed to rise for over two decades so that he could challenge Vegetto. New Age's Rigor a legendary Saiyan with a similar backstory to Broly but still trained for decades before taking on SSJ4 Gogeta. Both of these were considered major wanking but DBS Broly is going to far surpass both of these guys likely within a few hours during his battle in the movie. These only consider power-ups but literally almost every fanfic concept that has appeared in DBS goes far beyond anything else that had used that idea before. It's okay if a fan doesn't have a problem with any of this but what's mind boggling is when DBS fans claim that a fanfic or GT is wanking a character or taking something too far and then turn around to defend when DBS does something far more extreme.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 26, 2018 3:32:09 GMT
Feel like beating a dead horse, but GT also managed to put more "original" content in saga format. DBsuper was 2 movie rehashes, filler tournament arc, saga inspired by 2 fanfics (zamasu), which was incidentally the only arc in classical "villain saga" format, and another filler tournament arc. Not much going there. DBGT in turn is: Sorta pointless space filler, Baby Saga (possibly very inspired by Tsuffle revenge/Raichi's videogame), Super A17 (weird plot fusion of Fusion Reborn and Android 13), and finally the Shadow Dragon saga (unlike anything, this was not inspired by anything and in turn inspired many later fanfics). Shadow Dragon saga is a clear cut win above anything in DBSuper concept-wise. However the execution was still DBsuper-like. Should we merge this thread with the DBS vs. GT qualitative comparison? It feels like we're talking about the same thing now. EDIT: supergojita3 the threads have been merged since the thread's premise was essentially derived from comparing DBS vs. GT.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 5:10:29 GMT
I have only read OP before posting this so too bad if I repeat anyone above me.
At the end of Z I was shattered and desperate for DB content then my mate got me onto GT. I lapped that shit up like the dirty little whore I was.
Sure, I was raising an eyebrow every ep coz wtf but I didn't give a rats arse coz WOO SSJ YEA KAMEHAMEHA WOOO!! HYPUUUUU!!!!!
Then shit got real. Dat SSJ4 was fucken sick and still is.
I won't lie, I hopped onboard the GT hate train but I'd get off at some stations to defend it's honour and will still stand by it over DBS.
The reckon main reason for a resurgence with GT is due to nufanz gettin into it due to wanting MOAR content coz surely it can't be from disgruntled old fucks watchin it purely out of spite for DBS. Right?
Now if you'll excuse me I have this weeks ep of Overlord to watch!
edit: since the thread was merged I'd like to look a little less retarded than normal and have the record show that dbmenglish.freeforums.net/post/40207 was OP for the thread I mentioned in my post.
I know Conqueror Geng said something about merging before I posted but I still can't help but feel this was done to spite me :D
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Post by Xeno Black on Sept 27, 2018 4:28:59 GMT
I can guarantee you that I was a hardcore Dragon Ball fan since the age of 5. Large amounts of my childhood and teen years circled around this franchise and loved everything minus Evolution. I had nearly all the games, whole manga, various anime adaptations (original, remastered, movies, etc), music, and several pieces of doujinshi. At one point, I was a walking and talking encyclopedia of Dragon Ball where I could recite whole lines from memory alone. That how much I loved this series. Personally I both love and hate GT, and while I can see why some dislike it, but it does have some great moments in it. SSJ4 Goku is a prime example, and the pinnacle of Goku's characterization in more ways than one. Sadly, the official "sequel" series is a total bastardization of this once glorious character since the author found Goku's original traits to be "too heroic" while his poisonous traits weren't expressed enough. But more will come from this in a bit. Now, having said this, my love for modern dragon ball is virtually a 2 out of 10. Dragon Ball Super has ruined this franchise so badly that it can no longer be seen as a serious, somewhat consistent storyline anymore. And I agree with both @skar and Ashanark since GT doesn't hurt your experience while Super does. Pointless transformations (SSJ Rage is still the absolute worst), characters getting shoved away, tensionless combat, retcons, stagnant character development, and worst of all, Goku himself. I am a huge Goku fan since day 1. His design is unique, has cool powers, goofy, yet serious when it becomes necessary. He is not the smartest, but he has a level of intuition that allows him to read a person unlike no other. And his selfless attitude by putting others before him makes him saint-like, a trait I sometimes entertain by comparing him to Jesus Christ. This was best exemplified in GT where he went out of his way to teleport all humans to New Planet Tuffle as Earth was about to blow up. Do you ever see Super Goku doing anything like this? If Super wants to focus on Goku all the time, make the effort to make him interesting or entertaining. GT did this on multiple occasions, so why come Super cannot? He is so bland and one-dimensional that he virtually lost all all of his former good qualities. I cannot tell you how much it pains me to see Goku flying to a grocery store with a list full of pictures instead of words. Was he always that dumb? Or him threatening the entire universe for a simple tournament match that could have been avoided. Z and GT Goku would rather commit suicide than see his loved ones put through such trials. This alone makes Super disgusting for me. So yeah, I am happy that GT is finally getting the recognition it has always deserved, little it may be. Compared to Evolution and most of Super, the animators and writers actually did a "okay" job for the most part, though imperfections are easily visible. Just look how awesome Goku's response was when going against Omega Shenron: Omega: I want you to see this. Allow me to be your eyes. I've built a fine cemetery. There parts and lifeless ground for a grave. And broken buildings in the background for a headstone. Goku: Now all we need is a dead body. And I can assure you that when all of this over, I'll give you a nice burial. Omega: You misunderstand me. This is your grave for your funeral and your burial. Goku: We'll just have to SEE ABOUT THAT! Powers up a golden aura that is beautiful to behold before punching Omega aroundMe: Let me know when Super ever gives Goku such savage lines.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2018 6:59:04 GMT
Ashanark I forgot about frustrating retcons. Overall, I feel GT was pretty harmless and could be considered like a epilogue separate from the original series. There were a few questionable plotholes but they were mostly self contained within GT. On the other hand, DBS has various pointless retcons and revelations that change our perception of certain characters/events and sometimes retroactively make characters look stupider. The sad thing is that almost all of these retcons could be removed with little no impact on the story. Something else that might make fans look back more positively at GT is that, compared to most fanfiction, it's still somewhat conservative. The problem with DBS isn't that it uses common fanfic tropes because there are only so many ideas can come up with but the fact it takes them to far more ridiculous levels than any fanfic has ever done. Some examples: -In fanfiction, a Frost Demon has been training for decades or goes through some crazy means to power-up. In DBS, Freeza reaches God tier in four months. -In fanfiction, the most I've seen is one or two recolored transformations. DBS has one for almost every single color. -GT has two scientists work together to build another #17 and have him fuse with the original while also being able to absorb energy to reach SSJ4 tier. Other stories I've seen try to give the cyborgs some kind of upgrade in addition to training. DBS has #17 train in normal Earth's gravity on his own and beat up average humans for a few years. -I've seen an evil Goku who hit his head and regained some of his original Saiyan programming or one possessed by an evil parasite. DBS wins for having the craziest origin for an evil Goku with a Kaioshin somehow hauling around planet sized Dragonballs between two universes so he could wish to switch bodies with Goku. -DBM Broly's power needed to rise for over two decades so that he could challenge Vegetto. New Age's Rigor a legendary Saiyan with a similar backstory to Broly but still trained for decades before taking on SSJ4 Gogeta. Both of these were considered major wanking but DBS Broly is going to far surpass both of these guys likely within a few hours during his battle in the movie. These only consider power-ups but literally almost every fanfic concept that has appeared in DBS goes far beyond anything else that had used that idea before. It's okay if a fan doesn't have a problem with any of this but what's mind boggling is when DBS fans claim that a fanfic or GT is wanking a character or taking something too far and then turn around to defend when DBS does something far more extreme. Now if only GT or DBS were brave enough to have Freeza engage in a D&M with Bulma in her kitchen.... >inb4 DBS s2
But seriously, we are all whores when it comes to DB and as much as we shit on DBS I know for a fact most of you, especially you Axalon , were fiending for it week in week out. Christ, how many times did I quit DBS? As much as we shit on nufanz for blindly defending DBS they don't know any better so it's people like us who are quite literally the problem because we still watch the bs they dish out and they could give zero fucks what we think about it coz they know we will still watch it.
How many of you have bought DBS related media? Yes, I count DB FighterZ as DBS media because I'm spiteful.
How many of you are going to watch the Broly movie at the cinemas?
Sure we can complain about it but we are still lappin it up, which is what they want. Wanna fix the issue of shit content? Boycott it.
I tried and failed. I'm a dirty bitch who fiends for DB.
In fact Evolution was the nail in the coffin until DBM reignited the flame, which lead to me gettin into abridged.
Point is this is all that fucken french cunts fault.
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