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Post by Lord Rime on Aug 17, 2016 4:24:46 GMT
A general thread for the discussion of Dragon Ball Super in general (rather than any specific episode or event). Figured I'd preemptively make one. There should probably be one for each of the other Dragon Ball series as well, but I don't want to get ahead of myself.
Edit (Genghis Khan) I figured it would be better to add explicit warnings at the title instead of hiding all content inside within spoilers. Given that most persons discuss the latests episodes in this thread, it is better to do so. We will make threads about DBSuper quality, animation, art, later.
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 17, 2016 6:31:13 GMT
One thing I like about Super is Lord Beerus and Whis. When I went into the theater to watch Battle of Gods a few years ago, I was a bit skeptical about the two of them, especially how strong they were, but they grew on me. Ever since Resurrection F and the launch of Super, I've come to think of Beerus and Whis as a very fitting addition to the Dragon Ball story. They are as natural to me now as Future Trunks, Cell, Majin Buu, and other new characters who were introduced later on in Dragon Ball. I think Toriyama did great work coming up with their characters and designs.
God ki is a brilliant bit of worldbuilding, though it has been explained and executed a bit inconsistently. I wish that Toriyama had come up with it during the Buu saga to explain why the Kais were so powerful compared to the rest of the universe. I also think Super Saiyan God should be renamed Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue should be the Super Saiyan God. The names are just confusing.
While I think Multiverse is superior to Super in plotting, overall continuity (both in its own story, and also in keeping characterization from DBZ), and character development, and overall the better sequel, I think Future Trunks completely dominating Babidi and Dabura in Super was a much better way to handle that potential plot thread than the Mirai special.
Multiverse has handled Piccolo and Gohan better than Super, but getting to watch all of the old crew kick butt against Frieza's troops in Resurrection F was sure a lot of fun.
While just about every single DBZ fanfic has thought up Goku going Kaioken combined with Super Saiyan, seeing it happen with Goku against Hit was still awesome.
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Post by Coola Than You on Aug 17, 2016 14:08:47 GMT
Dragon Ball Super started out slow, very slow. It started with some fun, got into the movie arcs, and finally got into the Universe 6 Arc. The Universe 6 Arc had to be my favorite for the fact that Piccolo had a chance to fight once again. While Imliked the anime version, I will always prefer the manga version where it was an actual fight. I especially loved the fight Goku had with Hit. It was intense and everything I was hoping for since the beginning of the Arc itself. Now, Black is definitely an interesting character, despite what I thought before the Arc started. I can't wait to see what happens. Truthfully, I already have a prediction for Black, but I'm gonna keep that to myself until another episode is released. All in all, not an amazing series, but it has quite a few enjoyable moments and interesting plots. Definitely not as good as DBM, but a fun spiritual successor to DB.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 17, 2016 14:27:57 GMT
Frankly I only watched the U6 tournament arc and I have to say I do prefer the anime version of this one. While yes Piccolo actually fighting Frost in the manga was not bad but I liked how Piccolo used his biggest strenght - his intellect in the anime. Unlike Manga he didn't just throw himself against the supposedly much stronger opponent but aimed to win. Vegeta's battles also seemed more intense especially the one against metal man. And damn if I didn't got chills when Vegeta snapped after being "saved by rules" in that battle. And Hit vs Goku. Don't get me wrong manga version was good but in the end it was more or less glorified power contest I very short TFS Kai style I would sum it as. "Goku: You can't stop me. I'm stronger Hit: *Powers up* Now I'm stronger Time Stooo- Goku: *Goes SSB* Nope" Anime version... Gah it was just a great battle similar to DB Tenkaichi Budokai's final rounds. Fighters actually using crazy tactics instead of pure power and slowly opening to one another. And while I didn't like DBZ Super Kaioken here I felt "Blue Kaioken" was spot on with how SSB worked. Overall good impressions on that arc. Seems like Toriyama really actually starts having fun with it.
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Post by Veya on Aug 17, 2016 21:22:56 GMT
It has ups and downs...
BoG and FnF arcs were garbage, strictly inferior to the movie counterparts due to animations budgets, they didn't have a reason to be, I would much rather have Super delayed and started with a proper arc, the only good thing that came out of it was the FnF Supercut, and even then... I don't like FnF in first place.
U6 Tournament had excellent action and it was really fun... pointless fun, and that's the issue, I love fun as much as the next girl, but there was no tension whatsoever through the entire thing, it was mostly fanservicey fights and that's it, still, I am perfectly able to turn off my brain for silly, dumb fun, so I still enjoyed it.
Future Trunks stuff... actually started really strong, I wasn't expecting it, when I heard Future Trunks coming back, I expected some shark-jumping fanfic shit, but it gave me something actually good, this is the arc Super should have started with, this actually has tension and has me worried about what's happening next, the only issue is that at this point, it feels like it is starting to drag out a little, and I worry they are just going to warp to the future, beat up Black, and be done with it, and I am really hoping that's not the case.
Overall, I can still enjoy it, it is not as good as it could be, and the animation is... unpredictable at best, but I don't personally think it is as awful as some people say it is.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 17, 2016 21:29:43 GMT
U6 Tournament had excellent action and it was really fun... pointless fun, and that's the issue, I love fun as much as the next girl, but there was no tension whatsoever through the entire thing, it was mostly fanservicey fights and that's it, still, I am perfectly able to turn off my brain for silly, dumb fun, so I still enjoyed it. This is what I liked about U6. After a very long time DB returned albeit briefly to this charming and innocent fun the original DB especially around Tenkaichi Budokais (which i a way were binding a whole story) had. In a way it succeeded where the Black Dragon Balls Arc in GT failed. It recreated that nostalgic feeling of fun DB had without any serious shadow looming above it. And kill me but I freakin LOVE Vegeta's sensei mode when he peep talked Cabba after their battle.
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Post by Veya on Aug 17, 2016 21:57:33 GMT
And kill me but I freakin LOVE Vegeta's sensei mode when he peep talked Cabba after their battle. The deal is that I feel even DB had tension in its tournament arcs, counting the Yurai Baba arc as one(it's not a typical one, but it has the makings of one), all of them had some sort of tension, the first one had the moment Goku went Oozaru, Yurai Baba arc was a whole tension mode as they needed to know the location of the Dragon Balls(and it ended on the most heartwarming moment of DB, and possibly of the entire franchise, when Goku was briefly reunited with Gohan), the second tournament had the whole issue with Tenshinhan and how bloothirsty he was(and it ended on one of the darkest moments of DB, with Goku finding Kuririn dead), and the third tournament was also full tension mode with the return of Piccolo, they managed to be lighthearted but still have high stakes, which is why they are so very good. (there is also the issue with organic storytelling that Super lacks, Hail Zeon did a not one, but two videos on it and he explains it better than I could, but I won't hold it against Super too much) And I also enjoyed Vegeta's sensei mode, it was so funny and it makes so much sense for Vegeta to act like that to a promising young Saiyan... I only wish it was explored further, but they still have time for it.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 17, 2016 22:08:33 GMT
-Battle of the Gods and FoF Sagas were complete cashgrabs that can't even be considered a filler. They didn't really expand anything on the proper movies. Some things were changed, but they had little relevance. SSJ Fetus in Videl was just senseless.
-While fun to watch and the characters were cool, most were relegated to just filler characters whom we will likely not hear once again (and sadly this probably includes Hit and Kyabe), and the same plotholes happened in the tournament saga. Starting off with eliminating Buu. That was a good opportunity to make him appear as anything else than a fat bully that never spat his evil part. Ok, I understand he is not very intelligent, but then again we see a near-retarded robot that can't even say a single word and becomes paralyzed at being insulted that was somehow able to pass the exam?
-Universe 6 saga and Goku Black sagas are enjoyable at best. Lack of tension (mostly due to the presence of Whis and Omnigods on our fighters' side) is still rampant. A bunch of useless transformations that do nothing but downgrade the classic ones and inflate Goku and Vegeta's penis size even more also don't help.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 18, 2016 3:46:47 GMT
Oh well Veya I might have use my words poorly... What I meant when I mentioned lack of tension was rather lack of seriously looming threats. Up to King Piccolo arc there was nothing seriously threatening nor pressuring for put main cast. Goku wasn't fighting every fight with world's fate at stake which allowed for battles to take different course. There were no consequences for Goku not winning 21st Budokai which allowed him to lose (and in process mold him into a person he was in Z). I may be in minority but for me DBZ was in general steady loss in quality pass the Sayian arc. Ever since then the cleverness of battles seems to be gone. It was simply a strength contest. Maybe this is why I actually like DBS despite it's piss poor start. It goes back to those more lighthearted and yet clever roots which is something GT tried at start before reverting to rehashing DBZ formula.
Oh and one more thing... There was relatively little that God Ki forms did to "kill off" usefulness of earlier forms. DBZ did it on it's own. Super Sayian was next to useless by its 4th use. Level 2 didn't last past it's 4th use as well (OK there was Vegetto but as fusion he kinda throws the balance away) while SSJ3 was deemed impractical by Goku right after it was introduced and never amounted to anything on its own. So yeah if anything Super at least allow them some time in spotlight.
As I said it seems that Toriyama finally started to feel fun from making Dragon Ball again which allows me to keep my optimism. But that's mostly because I never held DBZ in overly high regard.
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Post by Archon on Aug 19, 2016 3:39:17 GMT
I just thought about this earlier today but Super has quite a few inconsistencies.
One example is how FPSS works. Goku and Gohan are able to stay super saiyan without the aura radiating around them and even while almost asleep. Yet when Goku and Vegeta are training with Whis inside that mystic fog stuff it's mentioned the fog restricts your movement if your ki is leaking (ie the aura) why the hell did it even take that long for Goku/Vegeta to realize this and why would Goku not have mastered this in base form since Cell Saga? They treated it like it was some brand new thing.
They've also been very restrictive about general info as well.
God Ki in general is a good example. Honestly what differences do the 2 have between each other? Not to mention you'd think Goku being able to use god ki would allow him to sense it as well but they've decided to limit his ability without a good reason as to why. They went through the effort to explain the universe setup before the Tourny against Champa yet don't explain why God Ki is on some insane higher tier. (Yet can be hurt by a laser gun from Sorbet)
(Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this btw)
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Post by Veya on Aug 19, 2016 14:25:56 GMT
God Ki in general is a good example. Honestly what differences do the 2 have between each other? Not to mention you'd think Goku being able to use god ki would allow him to sense it as well but they've decided to limit his ability without a good reason as to why. They went through the effort to explain the universe setup before the Tourny against Champa yet don't explain why God Ki is on some insane higher tier. (Yet can be hurt by a laser gun from Sorbet) (Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this btw) Just this little detail, Goku can sense God Ki for a while now, it is not clear when Goku himself gained the ability, but it is mentioned as a backhand comment from the Oracle Fish that Vegeta was starting to feel it after training with Whis for six months, in the episode Beerus has to wear the fake Monaka suit, Goku also mentions that fake Monaka's ki felt a lot like Beerus'(because he WAS Beerus), and most recently, Goku was able to teleport to Beerus' planet by locking onto Vegeta's Bluper Saiyan ki(which is also God Ki). As for the laser gun thing, this was actually the one thing Super fixed, as Goku had powered down back to base when he was hit by the laser, the whole sequence made a lot more sense because Goku had 200% lowered his guard, it's still stupid that's what they went with, but it at least makes sense now. But yeah, God Ki is still largely unexplained, the most notable detail is that Dende can apparently sense God Ki, and yeah, he is Kami, the God of Earth, but having a title is enough to sense God Ki? is it something that Popo, being his attendant, had to teach him so Dende could perform his duties? and if it is something he was taugh by Popo, why can't Piccolo sense God Ki as well? half of him was Kami for centuries, they make no attempt to explain or justify any of that.
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Post by kinnikuman on Aug 19, 2016 14:32:14 GMT
God Ki in general is a good example. Honestly what differences do the 2 have between each other? Not to mention you'd think Goku being able to use god ki would allow him to sense it as well but they've decided to limit his ability without a good reason as to why. They went through the effort to explain the universe setup before the Tourny against Champa yet don't explain why God Ki is on some insane higher tier. (Yet can be hurt by a laser gun from Sorbet) (Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this btw) Just this little detail, Goku can sense God Ki for a while now, it is not clear when Goku himself gained the ability, but it is mentioned as a backhand comment from the Oracle Fish that Vegeta was starting to feel it after training with Whis for six months, in the episode Beerus has to wear the fake Monaka suit, Goku also mentions that fake Monaka's ki felt a lot like Beerus'(because he WAS Beerus), and most recently, Goku was able to teleport to Beerus' planet by locking onto Vegeta's Bluper Saiyan ki(which is also God Ki). As for the laser gun thing, this was actually the one thing Super fixed, as Goku had powered down back to base when he was hit by the laser, the whole sequence made a lot more sense because Goku had 200% lowered his guard, it's still stupid that's what they went with, but it at least makes sense now. But yeah, God Ki is still largely unexplained, the most notable detail is that Dende can apparently sense God Ki, and yeah, he is Kami, the God of Earth, but having a title is enough to sense God Ki? is it something that Popo, being his attendant, had to teach him so Dende could perform his duties? and if it is something he was taugh by Popo, why can't Piccolo sense God Ki as well? half of him was Kami for centuries, they make no attempt to explain or justify any of that. Actually the laser never bothered me to much. I mean remember goku got hurt by a rock in SS because he wasn't forcusing on it. (And if came from Krillin) I see Ki as a shield and not a cloak. You have to aim the protection to were you need it. In theory a Sniper could take out SSJ Blue if they were far enough away. As for god ki. It could be that before Buu arc the gods were kind of unimportant. Popo may have never thought it important to teach. (Or dende could have learned from Kabito Kai.)
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 19, 2016 14:48:42 GMT
I believe God Ki isn't exactly on Insane tier level. It's just a different type of energy which those who never experienced it would not feel. Take a note that Goku never mentioned King Kai (lesser Shinjin which would make him a god) having high or low level and was very surprised when the latter mentioned Sayians may be stronger than him. Also Piccolo and no one in the cast could actually tell how strong Eastern Kaioshin or Kibito were and had to take their word for it. Also even when Goku lost his God form against Beerus and thus his Ki returned to "mortal perspective" spectrum, Beerus noted Goku barely lost any power. So it's not exactly Ammount that makes it impossible for mortals to feel.
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Post by Archon on Aug 19, 2016 18:41:13 GMT
God Ki in general is a good example. Honestly what differences do the 2 have between each other? Not to mention you'd think Goku being able to use god ki would allow him to sense it as well but they've decided to limit his ability without a good reason as to why. They went through the effort to explain the universe setup before the Tourny against Champa yet don't explain why God Ki is on some insane higher tier. (Yet can be hurt by a laser gun from Sorbet) (Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this btw) Just this little detail, Goku can sense God Ki for a while now, it is not clear when Goku himself gained the ability, but it is mentioned as a backhand comment from the Oracle Fish that Vegeta was starting to feel it after training with Whis for six months, in the episode Beerus has to wear the fake Monaka suit, Goku also mentions that fake Monaka's ki felt a lot like Beerus'(because he WAS Beerus), and most recently, Goku was able to teleport to Beerus' planet by locking onto Vegeta's Bluper Saiyan ki(which is also God Ki). As for the laser gun thing, this was actually the one thing Super fixed, as Goku had powered down back to base when he was hit by the laser, the whole sequence made a lot more sense because Goku had 200% lowered his guard, it's still stupid that's what they went with, but it at least makes sense now. But yeah, God Ki is still largely unexplained, the most notable detail is that Dende can apparently sense God Ki, and yeah, he is Kami, the God of Earth, but having a title is enough to sense God Ki? is it something that Popo, being his attendant, had to teach him so Dende could perform his duties? and if it is something he was taugh by Popo, why can't Piccolo sense God Ki as well? half of him was Kami for centuries, they make no attempt to explain or justify any of that. Ah ok thanks for clearing that up. I've only seen clips here and there from youtube so I figured I had missed something.
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Post by jkrevan on Aug 21, 2016 17:10:54 GMT
the part i'm enjoying most about super is learning the workings of the universe, with the whole Superior gods and stuff.
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Post by Lord Rime on Aug 28, 2016 14:11:31 GMT
I am, unfortunately, not watching this series. But I'm gonna assume that Zamasu is in some way puppetting Black.
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 28, 2016 16:59:58 GMT
So, Zamasu isn't Black Goku. Discuss! I haven't actually been keeping up with Super because I'm waiting until it gets dubbed, but Toriyama still surprised me with this one. Plot twists aren't really his strong point (I think Cell saga is as complicated as he ever got), and I was totally expecting him to pull "Oh, Black Goku is Zamasu!" and think it was a brilliant twist. The situation now seems slightly less bizarre now that "Zamasu swapped universes, went back in time, and fused with dead Goku" isn't an option. So, +1 to Master Toriyama. Still, giving Goku a Zeno-button he can push at any time is a big no-no to me.
Also, what's this, in this last episode? An arrogant-of-their-power character using an around-the-hand energy weapon that there was no foreshadowing that they had to end the fight against their underdog opponent by cutting them through the chest? And using that energy weapon to cut through Destructo Disks? Where have I seen this before? The only thing that was missing was to have Black pop some senzu beans partway through.
EDIT: Some people theorize that Black is the God of Destruction to Zamasu's God of Creation. (Which would explain why Black is stronger than Goku/Vegeta.) So if you kill Zamasu, Black will die. Seeing as they only revealed that little weakness of Gods of Destruction last episode, it'll might come into play here.
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Post by jkrevan on Aug 28, 2016 19:21:30 GMT
Whoa.. .Plot twist INDEED...
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Post by kinnikuman on Aug 29, 2016 5:16:33 GMT
So, Zamasu isn't Black Goku. Discuss! I haven't actually been keeping up with Super because I'm waiting until it gets dubbed, but Toriyama still surprised me with this one. Plot twists aren't really his strong point (I think Cell saga is as complicated as he ever got), and I was totally expecting him to pull "Oh, Black Goku is Zamasu!" and think it was a brilliant twist. The situation now seems slightly less bizarre now that "Zamasu swapped universes, went back in time, and fused with dead Goku" isn't an option. So, +1 to Master Toriyama. Still, giving Goku a Zeno-button he can push at any time is a big no-no to me.
Also, what's this, in this last episode? An arrogant-of-their-power character using an around-the-hand energy weapon that there was no foreshadowing that they had to end the fight against their underdog opponent by cutting them through the chest? And using that energy weapon to cut through Destructo Disks? Where have I seen this before? The only thing that was missing was to have Black pop some senzu beans partway through.
EDIT: Some people theorize that Black is the God of Destruction to Zamasu's God of Creation. (Which would explain why Black is stronger than Goku/Vegeta.) So if you kill Zamasu, Black will die. Seeing as they only revealed that little weakness of Gods of Destruction last episode, it'll might come into play here.That does make sense however... We still don't know who Black is. He can't be Goku of future timeline and the God of destruction of Zamasu's universe.
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