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Post by Jaquan on Aug 29, 2016 19:57:55 GMT
I haven't actually been keeping up with Super because I'm waiting until it gets dubbed, but Toriyama still surprised me with this one. Plot twists aren't really his strong point (I think Cell saga is as complicated as he ever got), and I was totally expecting him to pull "Oh, Black Goku is Zamasu!" and think it was a brilliant twist. The situation now seems slightly less bizarre now that "Zamasu swapped universes, went back in time, and fused with dead Goku" isn't an option. So, +1 to Master Toriyama. Still, giving Goku a Zeno-button he can push at any time is a big no-no to me.
You know fun fact is... Cell Saga is as complicated as it is because Toriyama's Editors/Publishers didn't exactly like his original Ideas. At first Adroids 19 and 20 were supposed to be the Androids Trunks warned the gang about. It wasn't well received so Toriyama added 17 and 18 as the wreckers of the future and killed of previous. They didn't do well too... So he created Cell which was never to evolve past his "Imperfect Form". The form was deemed ugly so Tori used Absorbtion based transformation to create Perfect Cell and get rid of unneeded Cyborgs. Other than that from my perspective it didn't stray to much from previous arcs formula where everyone one just buys time for the Big Hero to come and get the work done (though the Big Hero being Gohan and Goku dying was a clever idea). On the topic... The plots thickens...
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Post by kinnikuman on Aug 29, 2016 23:21:48 GMT
I haven't actually been keeping up with Super because I'm waiting until it gets dubbed, but Toriyama still surprised me with this one. Plot twists aren't really his strong point (I think Cell saga is as complicated as he ever got), and I was totally expecting him to pull "Oh, Black Goku is Zamasu!" and think it was a brilliant twist. The situation now seems slightly less bizarre now that "Zamasu swapped universes, went back in time, and fused with dead Goku" isn't an option. So, +1 to Master Toriyama. Still, giving Goku a Zeno-button he can push at any time is a big no-no to me.
You know fun fact is... Cell Saga is as complicated as it is because Toriyama's Editors/Publishers didn't exactly like his original Ideas. At first Adroids 19 and 20 were supposed to be the Androids Trunks warned the gang about. It wasn't well received so Toriyama added 17 and 18 as the wreckers of the future and killed of previous. They didn't do well too... So he created Cell which was never to evolve past his "Imperfect Form". The form was deemed ugly so Tori used Absorbtion based transformation to create Perfect Cell and get rid of unneeded Cyborgs. Other than that from my perspective it didn't stray to much from previous arcs formula where everyone one just buys time for the Big Hero to come and get the work done (though the Big Hero being Gohan and Goku dying was a clever idea). On the topic... The plots thickens... Just how thick, Future Beerus is dead as well.
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 30, 2016 0:16:18 GMT
You know fun fact is... Cell Saga is as complicated as it is because Toriyama's Editors/Publishers didn't exactly like his original Ideas. At first Adroids 19 and 20 were supposed to be the Androids Trunks warned the gang about. It wasn't well received so Toriyama added 17 and 18 as the wreckers of the future and killed of previous. They didn't do well too... So he created Cell which was never to evolve past his "Imperfect Form". The form was deemed ugly so Tori used Absorbtion based transformation to create Perfect Cell and get rid of unneeded Cyborgs. Other than that from my perspective it didn't stray to much from previous arcs formula where everyone one just buys time for the Big Hero to come and get the work done (though the Big Hero being Gohan and Goku dying was a clever idea). You know, I'd actually read that somewhere before. I think it's ironic that my favorite DBZ arc was the one that Toriyama had the least creative control over. Though I would've liked Imperfect Cell to stay around a bit longer--Perfect Cell is cool and all, but Imperfect Cell is the only DBZ villain that's ever been scary, so I took him more seriously than all the others.
Side note: Toriyama has two kids, right? I wonder how involved they are in his writing process. Not to take shots at The Creator or anything, but...as much as I like the addition of God ki to Dragon Ball lore, the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue forms aren't really any better than those Super Saiyan 6+ recolors you see floating around on deviantart...and Goku Black is basically a canon version of the "evil Goku" idea that every Dragon Ball fanfic has, even Multiverse. My point is that a lot of the stuff in Super seems a bit childish, so either Toriyama's gotten some strange ideas over the past few years or else he's doing a favor for somebody he knows. I can totally see "Super Saiyan Rose" being something that his kids or a friend came up with that he's throwing in for kicks and giggles.
Or maybe this is all Toei's idea. If you look at Dragon Ball Heroes, it's full of stuff that I would've found really awesome when I was 8, but only roll my eyes at now. Like Majin Janemba. Or SS4 Gohan. Or Super 18.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 4, 2016 17:30:29 GMT
This is about the latest episode, 57.
One thing I like is that Goku Black and Zamasu fight together, using combos and switching opponents. It reminds me a lot of Future Androids 17 and 18. There's far too little teamwork in the Dragon Ball series; we hardly ever get to see good or bad guys in Dragon Ball fight in teams, especially two guys that seem to be around the same level of strength. Black still seems the stronger of the two, but Zamasu doesn't seem useless compared to him, which is a breath of fresh air compared to Nappa and Vegeta, or Babidi and Buu. I don't think their teamwork is going to stick, but it's fun while it lasts.
Also, I have no idea what the heck is going on with Zamasu. Did he wish for immortality, like Garlic Jr.? Did he wish to have God ki? Both he and Black are still pretty mysterious at the moment, so Toriyama (or Toei) is doing a good job there. (EDIT: My first thought at seeing Zamasu's wound close up was, "Oh yay, another regenerating bad guy." Really makes me appreciate Frieza.)
Super's powerlevels keep being complete baloney, though. Why should Trunks be able to land a hit on or do anything to Zamasu or SSR Black without god ki? Still, he's willing to fight guys who are way stronger than him, which reminds me of Gohan back in the days of the good ol' Namek saga.
Whenever I hear characters throw out universe numbers in Super, is it wrong that I automatically think of DBM's universes? "He's the Kai from Universe 10." Oh, you mean the universe with all the primitive Saiyans? "There was a tournament between universes 6 and 7." Bojack vs. Gast? That's a little unfair.
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Post by jkrevan on Sept 4, 2016 19:10:37 GMT
Today's episode (57) is EASILY one of the best DBS episodes so far, lots of action (and well drawn too to boot), and trunks having a BA moment...
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Post by Axalon on Sept 4, 2016 19:30:31 GMT
One issue I took away from this was Gas grenades working to be bizarre. Standard military tactics stopped working way back in the original Dragon Ball back when Goku was a kid, and (not sure if it was anime filler or not) proved laughable in DBZ when Nappa got bored of waiting for Goku and annihilated an army sent to attack the Saiyans. Same with Perfect Cell later on. The fact that an ex-Red Ribbon Army member can stop, even if only briefly, people as powerful as Goku Black, who is downright more powerful than either SSB Vegeta or SSB Goku with a couple of gas grenades was silly. All this while Mai runs through the same gas giving them issues to grab Vegeta and run out.
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Post by jkrevan on Sept 4, 2016 19:42:13 GMT
One issue I took away from this was Well, I figure gas is more effective than pure explosives... also, they benefitted from a surprise attack, as powerless as they are, good to see they arent USELESS...
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Post by Jaquan on Sept 4, 2016 20:35:16 GMT
Well DB is pretty inconsistent here. Goku was able to take bullets to the head yet Yajirobe's sword worked relatively well against Vegeta. I guess smoke or gas is more efficient though since it bypasses tough skin.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 4, 2016 22:21:31 GMT
Well DB is pretty inconsistent here. Goku was able to take bullets to the head yet Yajirobe's sword worked relatively well against Vegeta. I guess smoke or gas is more efficient though since it bypasses tough skin. Not just Vegeta either. Oozaru Vegeta. Guy is on par with Captain Ginyu at that stage, yet Goku's Kamehameha to the eye did less damage than Yajirobe's sword did to either his tail or his battle armor, lol.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 4, 2016 22:36:34 GMT
Not just Vegeta either. Oozaru Vegeta. Guy is on par with Captain Ginyu at that stage, yet Goku's Kamehameha to the eye did less damage than Yajirobe's sword did to either his tail or his battle armor, lol. I think it might have something to do if you're expecting an attack or not and have powered-up your body with enough energy to stop it. That's why Vegeta could kill Burter; although he was a good deal stronger than Vegeta, since he was unconscious he couldn't defend himself and could be easily killed. Oozaru Vegeta wasn't expecting Yajirobe's attack at that moment, so he was vulnerable. You could also say that Yajirobe's sword works like a concentrated ki-attack (like the Special Beam Cannon) and can damage things Yajirobe normally couldn't.
The use of gas against Black excited me, actually, since I thought it was poison gas, not smokescreen. Trying to suffocate your opponent, especially if they're stronger than you, is a very brilliant idea--that's basically what Frieza was trying to do against Goku on Namek, after all, since Frieza figured the explosion wouldn't kill him but the vacuum of space would. It's just that it wasn't all that well-executed here. If Mai and the troopers wore gas masks or something, that would've be nice.
It was nice how Yajirobe did something useful, though. He proved yet again that he's more useful than Yamcha and Chaiotzu.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 4, 2016 22:49:00 GMT
Not just Vegeta either. Oozaru Vegeta. Guy is on par with Captain Ginyu at that stage, yet Goku's Kamehameha to the eye did less damage than Yajirobe's sword did to either his tail or his battle armor, lol. I think it might have something to do if you're expecting an attack or not and have powered-up your body with enough energy to stop it. Oh for sure. Goku getting lasered in the chest is just the most recent example. That said though, unexpected Goku ki blast to the eye. Vegeta didn't even lose it, just had to close it the rest of the fight. I dunno, his sword chopping off his tail is just one of those things in DBZ I look at, then just shake my head and move on.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 5, 2016 0:13:44 GMT
I am not going to point out the obvious inconsistences that have been present in DBSuper as this is already beating a dead horse (Trunks putting a longer fight than Vegeta, etc..). However, I am very positively impressed about this Black Goku saga. For the first time ever, we feel something closely resembling tension in this story. Some parts of Goku and Black exchanging blow's have animation that completely blow anything of DBZ out of the water, with perhaps the exception of Wrath of the Dragon. I was very surprised to see this.
Chapter 56 was very good as well. I like the whole dark, detailed, post apocalyptic scenarios of Future Trunks' world. A definite improvement to the overall empty, plastic looking colors that had been plaguing the rest of the series. I really like Black's character. It also made me appreciate the voice actor more. Goku sounds like a eunuch kid, but Black sounds like a completely deranged psychopath despite the high pitch. Great interpretation. Seing Zamasu appear in the previous chapter in a stream from the heavens was also awesome, and was also good seeing him tag team Goku and Trunks.
Not sure if it was just me, but it seems they are also including better background music.
Black is more than just a Turles or Evil Goku. I like this more mysterious approach they're giving him. My theory about his origins is something I recall hearing in Battle of the Gods, that only Kaioshins can create life, as opposed to gods of destruction. If this still holds true, then it could be possible Zamasu created some sort of improved saiyan based on Goku.
This saga looks really promising, really. The tournament saga was pretty lackluster, but I have to admit this is pretty acceptable. I wonder where the hell the god of destruction in Universe 10 is? And where is Future Beerus/Whis?
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Post by Azoth on Sept 5, 2016 0:59:43 GMT
This saga looks really promising, really. The tournament saga was pretty lackluster, but I have to admit this is pretty acceptable. I wonder where the hell the god of destruction in Universe 10 is? And where is Future Beerus/Whis? According to the latest manga chapter, since the kaioshins and GoDs are connected like Piccolo/Kami were, Supreme Kai's death to Dabura in the future timeline killed off Beerus.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 5, 2016 1:04:30 GMT
This saga looks really promising, really. The tournament saga was pretty lackluster, but I have to admit this is pretty acceptable. I wonder where the hell the god of destruction in Universe 10 is? And where is Future Beerus/Whis? According to the latest manga chapter, since the kaioshins and GoDs are connected like Piccolo/Kami were, Supreme Kai's death to Dabura in the future timeline killed off Beerus. There are some issues with this though. Old Kai should still be alive inside the sword in such case, unless Dabura destroyed it as well. Perhaps Beerus sealed him as a safeguard? Still, should not Whis still be alive? It was implied the GoDs die when the Kaioshins do, but not their assistants. This generates other problem with Buu though. Should not he have been more worried when Buu was slaughtering them? Did he not notice the presence of the supremest Kai inside Mr Buu? Mr. Buu is basically a mutation of two Kais fused, as Kid Buu (original part of Buu) is no longer inside him. He also did not seem worried in the slightest that 4 kais (female, mustache, buff and fat one) were missing when he visited the Supreme Kai's planet in the serie.
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Post by Azoth on Sept 5, 2016 1:23:31 GMT
Beerus may have been asleep when Buu was first active, and I'm guessing that as long as one kaioshin remains alive, so will the GoD. Old Kai may not count because he's sealed away, or Dabura did indeed destroy the Z Sword.
As for Buu and Grand Supreme Kai (and the others), it's likely that after a long enough time has passed, any and all traces of the absorbed completely merge, and are indistinguishable from, Buu himself. Everything is speculation right now.
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Post by Kirasha on Sept 15, 2016 16:04:31 GMT
There are some issues with this though. Old Kai should still be alive inside the sword in such case, unless Dabura destroyed it as well. Perhaps Beerus sealed him as a safeguard? Still, should not Whis still be alive? It was implied the GoDs die when the Kaioshins do, but not their assistants. This generates other problem with Buu though. Should not he have been more worried when Buu was slaughtering them? Did he not notice the presence of the supremest Kai inside Mr Buu? Mr. Buu is basically a mutation of two Kais fused, as Kid Buu (original part of Buu) is no longer inside him. He also did not seem worried in the slightest that 4 kais (female, mustache, buff and fat one) were missing when he visited the Supreme Kai's planet in the serie. It is possible that being trapped in the sword counts as dead? I mean no one knew about Old Kai anymore, nor could anyone sense his energy either. So technically speaking, he could be considered dead. I also personally think that, so long there is a Supreme Kai, Beerus will still live. As for not sensing Grand Supreme Kai in Buu, I think that the Kais had been inside Buu for so long, that they are fully absorbed into Buu, making them more so part of him rather then having an unique signature still to sense. As for not being worried about the other Kai, well...weren't they each assigned to their own quadrant much like the lesser Kais like King Kai? He might note have taken notice due to those Kais each most likely having a planet of their own, at least that's my thought about it.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 15, 2016 22:04:44 GMT
Can someone explain to me why they don't use the Super Saiyan God ritual on Future Trunks? Wouldn't that help Trunks get a massive power up and eventually absorb that power into his regular form like Goku did in Battle of the Gods. Wouldn't that be a quick time saver to get Trunks close enough to obtain Super Saiyan Blue like Goku and Vegeta?
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Post by Azoth on Sept 15, 2016 22:07:44 GMT
Can someone explain to me why they don't use the Super Saiyan God ritual on Future Trunks? Wouldn't that help Trunks get a massive power up and eventually absorb that power into his regular form like Goku did in Battle of the Gods. Wouldn't that be a quick time saver to get Trunks close enough to obtain Super Saiyan Blue like Goku and Vegeta? Vegeta wants him to earn the power like he did, rather than just get it, I think.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 15, 2016 22:29:17 GMT
Can someone explain to me why they don't use the Super Saiyan God ritual on Future Trunks? Wouldn't that help Trunks get a massive power up and eventually absorb that power into his regular form like Goku did in Battle of the Gods. Wouldn't that be a quick time saver to get Trunks close enough to obtain Super Saiyan Blue like Goku and Vegeta? Vegeta wants him to earn the power like he did, rather than just get it, I think. I can buy that with Vegeta, but Goku has always been lax for quick power ups when they need it to defeat a enemy in time sensitive. Plus didn't Goku and Vegeta go back with Trunks to beat Black for him? Isn't that a mixed message to make Trunks (who had been training hard for all this time) to say he needs to train to obtain that power than to go back with him to fight his battles for him?
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Post by kinnikuman on Sept 16, 2016 7:34:22 GMT
Vegeta wants him to earn the power like he did, rather than just get it, I think. I can buy that with Vegeta, but Goku has always been lax for quick power ups when they need it to defeat a enemy in time sensitive. Plus didn't Goku and Vegeta go back with Trunks to beat Black for him? Isn't that a mixed message to make Trunks (who had been training hard for all this time) to say he needs to train to obtain that power than to go back with him to fight his battles for him? I think it was mor ethat Trunks shouldn't just come to them for every booboo... (And it's a good point. Androids and Cell were defeated by trunks in the end. I think the same will happen with black.) Vegeta can help him train but in the end this is trunks universe (Timeline whatever) and he needs to protect it. Black may not be the last threat... Don't be a Gohan.
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