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Post by POPO on Jun 19, 2017 0:23:56 GMT
Gast is sweating at Hatchiyak appearing, so I'm suddenly having my doubts now... Of course, Kami knows what Salagir is gonna set this Hatchiyak's power level at. Probably at Vegito and ZenBuu sweatdrop levels. if we get reactions next page, we might be able to calculate. Gast might just not know what the fuck is happening. Still, if he was having slight troubles with SSJ3 Vegeta, and Broly was invincible... it's likely the final boss is going to be far more formidable than that. I still think he's somewhere inbetween Super Buu and Mystic Gohan levels (refering to Gast) |
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Post by Xeno Black on Jan 12, 2019 0:24:41 GMT
Did not expect the soul change to have a homing function. Now based off the vigorous argument several of you are having, may i suggest the simplest interpretation? DBM changed something to make it fit their narrative. We've already seen it several times (Broly's literal invulnerability, SS3 draining energy at a absurd rate, the potential of the younger generation of Saiyans, how Gohan's 'Mystic' transformation works, Cell's Regen/nucleus location, Hirudegarns abilties, Babidi's majinisation etc...). Now why i don't nessessarily agree with this since it's so different to how it worked in canon DBZ- It literally paralyzed the target, it does account for the different situation. In this case- the chaos of a battle royale with projectiles, energy beams and everything else fying around it would make it difficult to target a particular being, especially since they have seen it in action and are actively trying to evade it. Also lets not forget that Salagir has most likely changed a few things from when DBM first started to now. I think all of us were surprised when it was revealed that Cold was Ginyu, to me it felt contrived, even with a special to explain how it was possible. Because of that he's most likely had to change the story a bit to fit these new developments in. Even Mustache Kai suddenly using a Psychic attack in a different body makes sense- many things are possible in DBZ/DBM when they're stressed/angry. Plus since no matter what alien race you are (Demon, Human, Saiyan, Kai, Android etc..) everyone can use Ki abilities. So even being trapped in another body it's quite plausible to use this ability even if the body you're currently in has never used it before. I completely agree with the enlarged bold. I speak for myself on this, but I seriously believe that the first and second round is a different entity altogether compared to the third and majin revolt sagas. The novel further enforced this belief on me. You see, everything I interpreted told me that Cell was not at Mystic Gohan's level, perhaps Super Buu the MOST, but not Mystic. I made a thread about this a year ago supporting this belief and went on to say he was at SSJ3 Goku Buu Saga's level. Or how Gast could have been seen as SSJ2 Vegito level, but wasn't in the end. In some ways DBM was conservative while others were liberal, but there was evidence to support these beliefs. Now though I do not even know, especially in terms of power levels. How 5th form Cold is SSJ2 Teen Gohan's level is ludicrous while Asura himself stated that 6th form Cold is Pre-suicide Perfect Cell level. Things are strange at times for DBM. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 12, 2019 2:26:14 GMT
Ginyu learning how to Curve his Change beam over the 20+ years is no worse than Goku learning how to Curve a Kamehameha as a kid. I've yet to see anyone have an issue with the latter. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Or making a double Kamehameha (in which each part is already directed in spiral form) that intertwines itself into a fucking dodecahedron. @skar That image was a fan art though. Since the 1000 page anniversary was back then when the third round had already started, Gast likely was already nerfed back then. There were plenty of other weird interpretations as well: I like the fact Gast is around SSJ3--Super Buu tier though and that he worked all his path there the hard way (from Semi-Perfect Cell level). That's what Piccolo could have been but never was, an equal by the end of Buu saga as he was for most of Z. Making him SSJ2 Vegetto levels would have made him a boring, one sided Namek male power fantasy. This would also have been too hard to justify. To be honest it's even hard to justify Zen Buu is there (above SSJ2 Vegetto), when at best he should be barely reaching SSJ Vegetto. And Buu as base was already SSJ3 level, and counting all the absorption he'd been equal to 12-13 SSJ3s. To justify the creep of Gast from Semi-Perfect Cell to SSJ2 Vegetto would have been impossible. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 2:45:00 GMT
You betcha. South Kaioshin is a confirmed case, since the Bonus section (written maybe 2009?) puts him at SS3-tier and he got pretty handily beat up by Fat Buu in 2012. Gast was initially much more powerful than his showing against Raichi later showed, as evidenced by the fact he didn't get worried by Vegito until he went SS2. I remember this fanart from the 1000th page celebration:  He's got a lot of nerve misleading us. You're a mean one, Salagir! You really went too far! ... You're a monster, Salagir Your heart's an empty hole Your brain is full of spiders You even weakened Gast Carcolh, Salagir! I wouldn't touch your comic with a A thirty nine and a half foot pooole! You're a vile one, Salagir! Gast's power is no longer clear What happened to him makes me shed a tear, Salagir! He used to be SSJ2 Vegetto tiiiieeer! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 3:36:41 GMT
I like the fact Gast is around SSJ3--Super Buu tier though and that he worked all his path there the hard way (from Semi-Perfect Cell level). That's what Piccolo could have been but never was, an equal by the end of Buu saga as he was for most of Z. Making him SSJ2 Vegetto levels would have made him a boring, one sided Namek male power fantasy. This would also have been too hard to justify. To be honest it's even hard to justify Zen Buu is there (above SSJ2 Vegetto), when at best he should be barely reaching SSJ Vegetto. And Buu as base was already SSJ3 level, and counting all the absorption he'd been equal to 12-13 SSJ3s. To justify the creep of Gast from Semi-Perfect Cell to SSJ2 Vegetto would have been impossible. I assumed it took some time for Gast's body to get used to the fusion of around 100 Nameks which is why he didn't one-shot King Cold. Once he started training, his power might rise quicker than normal as he realizes the full potential of all those Nameks. I think him reaching SSJ1 Vegetto's power could work I don't have a problem with him being SSJ3 tier though since that's already an impressive power-up and more than enough for the strongest enemies he faced in his universe. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Jan 12, 2019 4:11:16 GMT
I like the fact Gast is around SSJ3--Super Buu tier though and that he worked all his path there the hard way (from Semi-Perfect Cell level). That's what Piccolo could have been but never was, an equal by the end of Buu saga as he was for most of Z. Making him SSJ2 Vegetto levels would have made him a boring, one sided Namek male power fantasy. This would also have been too hard to justify. To be honest it's even hard to justify Zen Buu is there (above SSJ2 Vegetto), when at best he should be barely reaching SSJ Vegetto. And Buu as base was already SSJ3 level, and counting all the absorption he'd been equal to 12-13 SSJ3s. To justify the creep of Gast from Semi-Perfect Cell to SSJ2 Vegetto would have been impossible. I assumed it took some time for Gast's body to get used to the fusion of around 100 Nameks which is why he didn't one-shot King Cold. Once he started training, his power might rise quicker than normal as he realizes the full potential of all those Nameks. I think him reaching SSJ1 Vegetto's power could work I don't have a problem with him being SSJ3 tier though since that's already an impressive power-up and more than enough for the strongest enemies he faced in his universe. Considering the next strongest namek around, Piccolo, is barely FPSS level, having a namekian reach SS3 tier by absorbing every single member of his race and training hard to beat some tough opponents is within acceptable limits. Putting him above even base Vegito would be a stretch, let alone SS Vegito. People saying "Gast should be SS2 Vegito tier" have their heads so far up their asses, they can see Sunshine. Slight side note, but i'm also a little sick of saying "Blah blah is only SS3 tier? Thats bullshit!!" Even the weakest SS3 is 10 times more powerful then Teen SS2 Gohan. The amount of power that is dwarfs so many other characters it isn't even funny. Realstically the only people above that SS3 tier is Vegito (The fusion of the 2 most powerful Saiyans around), and Buu (Who started as a SS3 tier and absorbed countless more to increase his already enormous power). I'm not counting Gotenks because he's a temporary fusion, or XXI because he haven't seen any power showing from him yet |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 4:21:51 GMT
Hmm. I feel most comfortable placing Gast above Mystic Gohan at the bare minimum but no more than Vegetto.
I like the idea of him making use of that planets vast library of knowledge and a few epic training montages to get to those levels.
That said this is only his raw power, I also like to think that he has techniques that are able to more than make up his "lack" of raw power and can keep him on par with at least SSJ Vegetto. Higher than SSJ2 Vegetto and I will need a pretty convincing reason to take it on board.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 4:58:53 GMT
Slight side note, but i'm also a little sick of saying "Blah blah is only SS3 tier? Thats bullshit!!" Even the weakest SS3 is 10 times more powerful then Teen SS2 Gohan. The amount of power that is dwarfs so many other characters it isn't even funny. Realstically the only people above that SS3 tier is Vegito (The fusion of the 2 most powerful Saiyans around), and Buu (Who started as a SS3 tier and absorbed countless more to increase his already enormous power). Yeah, 99.9% of the universe's inhabitants are weaker than Freeza. Within that tiny percentage of characters stronger than Freeza, only a few are anywhere near Buu who is the most powerful magical creation in DB history (until recently anyway). Vegetto and Zen Buu are freak anomalies that are created under incredibly rare circumstances so beings with that much power likely don't exist in the majority of all universes. I admit I'm a Namek fanboy (which is kinda obvious) but SSJ3-Ultimate Gohan tier should be as far as he realistically goes. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Jan 12, 2019 5:00:45 GMT
Aren't base Vegito and Gohan considered to be about the same power? Either way i couldn't see Gast, in sheer power alone, being able to take either of them.
To be honest i think he'd still be outclassed by opponents in the Buu saga, let alone the improvements they've made in the intervening years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 5:08:54 GMT
Aren't base Vegito and Gohan considered to be about the same power? Either way i couldn't see Gast, in sheer power alone, being able to take either of them. To be honest i think he'd still be outclassed by opponents in the Buu saga, let alone the improvements they've made in the intervening years. Nope. Base Vegetto is Stronger. I get why people don't like the idea of Gast being stronger than Mystic Gohan.
I can settle with Mystic Gohan tier give or take, but Gast DEFINITELY has to have a literal fuckton of uber skillz n shieet otherwise, what's the point?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 12, 2019 5:40:50 GMT
Aren't base Vegito and Gohan considered to be about the same power? Either way i couldn't see Gast, in sheer power alone, being able to take either of them. To be honest i think he'd still be outclassed by opponents in the Buu saga, let alone the improvements they've made in the intervening years. Aren't base Vegito and Gohan considered to be about the same power? Either way i couldn't see Gast, in sheer power alone, being able to take either of them. To be honest i think he'd still be outclassed by opponents in the Buu saga, let alone the improvements they've made in the intervening years. Nope. Base Vegetto is Stronger. I get why people don't like the idea of Gast being stronger than Mystic Gohan.
I can settle with Mystic Gohan tier give or take, but Gast DEFINITELY has to have a literal fuckton of uber skillz n shieet otherwise, what's the point?
I think Gast should be a little under or right around Super Buu levels. He probably can take opponents as high as Mystic Gohan with his magic skillz though. He also appears to be more pragmatic than most other fighters (ignoring the King Piccolo fight tho). Also, it makes sense that he isn't higher than all the strongest Buu saga fighters and absorptions/fusions. I don't think there were enough SSJ3 tier fighters for Buu to absorb in U7. Goku and co likely were already done by the Androids, likely without even getting to SSJ level. No Cell from the future so no SSJ2 Gohan. Trunks was never born due to no Vegeta on Earth, thus no Gotenks. Broly and Vegeta were likely already downed by Gast at the time Buu saga started. I also don't think there were the right circumstances (aka Mr Satan) to make Super Buu possible. There is only one weird thing about U7 though: since there were no time machines and no Future Trunks, the Cell Gast fought in U7 had to be from the same U7 timeline, and had to appear a few years after the Buu saga. Depending on what happened decades earlier, there may not have been Androids around that time anymore. Thus only a different Cell with no need for Androids, or an Imperfect Cell would have been possible. And on top of that this Cell would also be missing the Frost Demon's cells . Then, the possible components of that Cell would have been: -Super Namekian (Gast carcolh, if he ever was on Earth again) -Super Vegeta (if he ever was on Earth again) -Dabura -Majin Buu? -All the other cells collected prior to Namek saga. In any case, whatever this shit was, it must have looked and functioned so differently it could be no longer be called a Cell as we knew him to be. Perhaps we can call him "Jiren"? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 15:18:50 GMT
@base Vegetto stronger than Mystic Gohan I've read novel some time ago - are you sure? I think in novel he fought Gohan in base, but Vegetto was complaining that Gohan isn't giving his all in their sparings. I would go with SSJ Vegetto > Mystic Gohan > base Vegetto. I never liked the idea him being SSJ3 in base - and please, lets leave the anime filler where he is fighting Buuhan for some time in his base instead of going straight to SSJ, like in the manga ;p Salagir's old tier list (not sure if anything changed since then): SSJ3 Tier: Goku SSJ3 (DBZ), Kid Buu, Super Buu, Base DBZ Vegetto, Young Gotenks SSJ3 (DBZ) In-between: Mystic Gohan, base Vegetto, Son Bra SSJ1(?) SSJ"4" Tier: Buu-Gotenks, Buu-Gohan I think it's too much for base Vegetto to be this strong but DBM Vegetto is still weaker than his anime counterpart from the Buu saga. Buutenks is about 2x stronger than Super Buu assuming that Gotenks and Super Buu were about equal. That could mean a fight between Gohan and DBM base Vegetto could be close since they're both stronger than Super Buu but less than twice his power. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 12, 2019 23:38:03 GMT
fooshin The Gast example started only because Drakthul said something like this: "If Ginyu was not a complete retard, he'd just have swapped Freeza early on". So I used a couple of examples to show him why his line of thinking was wrong: "If nameks were not retards they'd have fused as Gast in canon" "If Super Buu was not a retard he'd never have allowed Goku and Vegeta get close to Fat Buu's cocoon" "If Bardock was not a retard he'd not have committed suicide vs. Freeza" "If Krilin and Goku were not retards they'd have beheaded Vegeta" "If Vegetto was not a retard he would not be having 2 wives" etc etc.. I'm personally fine with the concept of Gast, as I am with most of the alternate universes origins. Only thing that was a bit disappointing about him is that despite he has access to lots of knowledge (likely only surpassed by Zen Buu) he had to resort to playing possum vs. Raichi.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 23:40:54 GMT
Conqueror Geng - Yea but Ginyu is the ULTIMATE WARRIOR, not the ULTIMATE SCIENTIST.
edit: I still see that "game of possum" as Gast keeping his cards close to his chest. I mean he did rip out that "stfu and sit in the corner" move on Zen Buu because he thought the situation was dire enough to warrant decisive action.
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Post by Super Saiyan God Vegeto on Jan 13, 2019 2:15:19 GMT
About Gast
The most power that we see him exert is when he charges up and obliterates Hatchickack
That was definitely more power than he used in the earlier situation against Vegeta and Broly
How much power was that?
We can still only speculate
But we can definitely be sure that he was ‘trying’ when he blew him away at the end
Maybe it is was super overkill, maybe it was just enough
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Post by thequebecois on Jan 13, 2019 13:13:18 GMT
About Gast The most power that we see him exert is when he charges up and obliterates Hatchickack That was definitely more power than he used in the earlier situation against Vegeta and Broly How much power was that? We can still only speculate But we can definitely be sure that he was ‘trying’ when he blew him away at the end Maybe it is was super overkill, maybe it was just enough If we go by the novel it was enough to kill a ultimate Gohan+ level opponent, if we go by the comic it should just be about the max output of a ssj3 level character, so something alongs SSJ3 Goku kamehameha |
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Post by Rudeman on Jan 13, 2019 14:27:03 GMT
If we go by the novel it was enough to kill a ultimate Gohan+ level opponent, if we go by the comic it should just be about the max output of a ssj3 level character, so something alongs SSJ3 Goku kamehameha Well that depends, what you mean by MAX output. The only time I saw "max" output attack done by SSJ3 was when Goku blew up in U4 special - Buu even admired that in normal scale that attack could destroy him with entire Solar System along. In regards of Gast final attack on Hatchiyack, I think the blast itself isn't what shows his potential to have higher level than normal SSJ3. The thing is - Hatchiyack was totally surprised when Gast appeared, showing that Namek's speed was way superior to the Biodroids one. Although - do we have any specs how strong this Hatchiyack was despite hackish scream technic? Because if he was just ~SSJ1-2 level (like in the movie), then Gast blowing him up was nothing outstanding and we are still in the dark with Namek's PL... ^^ |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2019 15:12:40 GMT
If we go by the novel it was enough to kill a ultimate Gohan+ level opponent, if we go by the comic it should just be about the max output of a ssj3 level character, so something alongs SSJ3 Goku kamehameha Well that depends, what you mean by MAX output. The only time I saw "max" output attack done by SSJ3 was when Goku blew up in U4 special - Buu even admired that in normal scale that attack could destroy him with entire Solar System along. In regards of Gast final attack on Hatchiyack, I think the blast itself isn't what shows his potential to have higher level than normal SSJ3. The thing is - Hatchiyack was totally surprised when Gast appeared, showing that Namek's speed was way superior to the Biodroids one. Although - do we have any specs how strong this Hatchiyack was despite hackish scream technic? Because if he was just ~SSJ1-2 level (like in the movie), then Gast blowing him up was nothing outstanding and we are still in the dark with Namek's PL... ^^ The only comment we’ve ever gotten about Hatchiyack’s power, is in the novel, where it’s stated that he’s on par with SSJ Vegito. Other than that, nothing. |
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Post by Rudeman on Jan 13, 2019 15:28:44 GMT
Well that depends, what you mean by MAX output. The only time I saw "max" output attack done by SSJ3 was when Goku blew up in U4 special - Buu even admired that in normal scale that attack could destroy him with entire Solar System along. In regards of Gast final attack on Hatchiyack, I think the blast itself isn't what shows his potential to have higher level than normal SSJ3. The thing is - Hatchiyack was totally surprised when Gast appeared, showing that Namek's speed was way superior to the Biodroids one. Although - do we have any specs how strong this Hatchiyack was despite hackish scream technic? Because if he was just ~SSJ1-2 level (like in the movie), then Gast blowing him up was nothing outstanding and we are still in the dark with Namek's PL... ^^ The only comment we’ve ever gotten about Hatchiyack’s power, is in the novel, where it’s stated that he’s on par with SSJ Vegito. Other than that, nothing. Wow....  That puts Gast between Mystic Gohan and SSJ Vegetto then (maybe SSJ2 Bra?). Gast doesn't have to be stronger than Hitchayack, to obliterate him. Although he has to be somewhere around that level. FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta had chance to kill Perfect Cell (only Cell Games one, but still stronger than them) with their Kamehameha and Final Flash respectively. So maybe he was marking his blows in fight with Raichi's minions after all...?  Btw. As I think about it - plotwise, we need him at least at SSJ Bra level, so he can challenge her properly and when she snaps to SSJ2, he will show her, that bruteforce will always loose in front of good strategy... that sounds sooo unDragonBallish... of course brute strength solves everything - your power just has to be MAXIMUM...! Btw2. For those pointing out, that Gast was visibly struggling with Vegeta + Broly duo - Salagir just recently showed us, that (in DBM) even vastly stronger opponent can be crushed with perfect team effort of weaker fighters (FPSSJ Cell Jr. vs U9). Going with this logic, Destructo disc + Brolly Full Nelson might bring down even Mystic Gohan, if he was caught off guard (like Gast did)? |
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Post by fooshin on Jan 13, 2019 18:05:02 GMT
Btw2. For those pointing out, that Gast was visibly struggling with Vegeta + Broly duo - Salagir just recently showed us, that (in DBM) even vastly stronger opponent can be crushed with perfect team effort of weaker fighters (FPSSJ Cell Jr. vs U9). Going with this logic, Destructo disc + Brolly Full Nelson might bring down even Mystic Gohan, if he was caught off guard (like Gast did)? If you're referring to my comment then no, it's not his struggle with vegeta + broly duo but rather the struggle with just vegeta prior to broly ever appearing that sets his strength. Keep in mind that the manga is always an abridged version of reality so that a fight that shows a lot of action in a few frames would be several minutes of back and forth in an anime version when there's not a crunch for time and space like you have in a manga. Broly aside, what we have here is a sucker punch that actually damages gast (bruised cheek, blood dripping to his chin), and yet he manages to recover from it somewhat quickly. This implies they are similar strength as a stronger vegeta would have knocked him down and a weaker vegeta would have pushed him back but not damaged him. On the next page we see vegeta block a punch from gast. Then the important frame where we have the clearest illustration ever of equality in a fight - blow for blow, block for block, damage for damage. Then gast avoids a hit from vegeta to match the first frame and then broly appears. Once he's there it goes down hill extremely fast, just as you would expect when 2 equals are fighting and you throw in a huge assist to one side. Also, keep in mind that there was no special techniques or charged up ki blasts to skew the results. Pure brawling is the best way to gauge speed and strength which defines PL. The bottom line is the comic clearly illustrates equality between gast and ssj3 vegeta when it comes to PL. Fortunately for gast PL doesnt always determine the winner so he still pulled it out in the end. As far as mystic Gohan also getting wrecked in his situation, I doubt it. Mystic is a huge step up from ssj3. Gohan bitch slapped fat buu like he was nothing and he would have done the same to this vegeta before broly ever appeared. Also, regardless of hatchiyack's strength, gast did a huge charge up before blasting him. Vegeta did the same to perfect cell and would have killed him if it wasnt for his regen. Big charged up ki blasts always attack with a strength far greater than someone's normal PL. And finally, was Gast holding back? There's nothing that indicates a reason to be. He was in an intense fight for his life and had every reason to go all out. The "he might be holding back" is a terribly redundant argument that you can apply to anyone at anytime and is barely worth mentioning so late into this story. Even fighters who lost ( videl) could have been holding back. Let's just all assume anything's possible and debate just the facts as we see them. If we're working under the assumption that these final matches need to be competitive (which they don't) then keep in mind that gast doesnt need a huge pl to fight bra when it's clear he's got all kinds of unknown skills to lean on. If anything I'd be worried about vegeta fighting cell as there's pretty much no way in hell he can beat this Mystic++ level cell unless saligir is pulling ssj5 on us. |
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That puts Gast between Mystic Gohan and SSJ Vegetto then (maybe SSJ2 Bra?). Gast doesn't have to be stronger than Hitchayack, to obliterate him. Although he has to be somewhere around that level. FPSSJ Goku and ASSJ Vegeta had chance to kill Perfect Cell (only Cell Games one, but still stronger than them) with their Kamehameha and Final Flash respectively.