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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 6:08:15 GMT
What do you put down if you don't like her at all but don't extremely hate her? Would that be neutral or would that simply be hating her? Or would it be "Other?" Hell if I know xD. Sorry if the following quotes look awkward, I can't be bothered to learn the system properly Yep. That's a big issue. To be honest if she hadn't acted like she had it under control from the beginning like she did and said a line akin to what you said, I would have felt better about it because then she acknowledges a weaker opponent managed to outsmart and "best" her as a result of her own faults. But that was not the case. Her actions only helped support the people who already disliked her and swayed many of the people who were on the fence about her in their direction.
Not logical at all, as many, many, many people have mentioned, Piccolo had their beans. All of them. If she had made a remark or hinted some way she had any beans as I personally would expect her to given her personality (something along the lines of "Ha, you think I'm afraid of another form dumbass? I've got a few tricks up my sleeves too you know!" [Comedy points if the line were something involving "gloves" rather than "sleeves" since that would be absolutely hilarious. Never would see that coming]), the backlash would not have been so bad. That's what made it bad writing for people. There were so many different ways to make the whole thing better but none of those options were taken.
Yes that's true but I hope you can at least understand the stance we do have on that whole thing. Not everything needs to be, of course not, but a game changer like a Senzu Bean should have been hinted at, especially since she would have lost without them. It's like watching a bad horror movie and it turns out the killer was a parent who was out of town when everything to that point makes you believe it shouldn't be possible, it makes you say "Bullshit!" Yes, I know U16 had the beans, but there was no indication anyone aside from Piccolo had access to them. If nothing else, Vegito certainly had no clue given his line to Gohan, I doubt just because he doesn't get 10 beans at once he can't feel some effect from them so asking Bra to give him some would not have been out of the question.
Yes that much is true, however I feel as though it could have been played in her favor a bit better. If she had a mixture of Goku's side and Vegeta's side (being nice but at the same time an asshole when warranted), I would have been okay with that. Instead she was given all the things that made Vegeta unlikable to some but with none of the redeeming factors he had.
Oh wait, gonna end this by saying I still love your rank by the way lol. Genghis Khan, gotta give you props for that one. Just flat out "Popo Shit"
Edit: Oh my God that's hilarious lmao. Genghis Khan literally redid the ranking system as I was typing that out so now your rank isn't Popo Shit anymore xD. Goddamn that is funny. Not even gonna delete the above
Oh yeah, I have mentioned this myself. Criticism good or bad is always acceptable. Vitriol is never okay and shouldn't even be considered as criticism. There's no reason criticism should ever get to that point where you just bash everyone and everything. To be fair though, I've seen vitriol from both sides of the argument, it's worse though (in my humble opinion) on the side of the Bra "supporters" in that regard as they tend to attack the users, Bra "haters" tend to attack the comic and the character at hand.
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Post by Lord Rime on Aug 25, 2016 6:13:10 GMT
I understand the stance, it's the vitriol that bothers me.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 25, 2016 6:17:12 GMT
I understand the stance, it's the vitriol that bothers me. Fortunately not much of that has spilled over here. The poll's results should be a clear statement of that. Edit: Oh my God that's hilarious lmao. Genghis Khan literally redid the ranking system as I was typing that out so now your rank isn't Popo Shit anymore xD. Goddamn that is funny. Not even gonna delete the above I updated them since many people had already pointed out the order was screwed. So, sorry. You will need to have 250 posts to be Popo's Shit now:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 6:38:51 GMT
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 25, 2016 7:17:06 GMT
^Sorry. The color between post's background is alternated (to avoid monotony I guess?) with each post. Blue-grey, white, blue-grey, white, etc etc. If you check your first post in this page, the signature line appears. However, in your next posts (where you have a darker background) it simply fuses with the background color.
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Post by Archon on Aug 25, 2016 12:37:57 GMT
Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with people having their own opinions. But as was previously stated it's the constant complaints and whining and vitriol that bug me when it comes to the topic. I love having conversations where I disagree with people as long as we can be civil. If you don't like something say so and explain why. But I mean unless it's neccesary you shouldn't (and I'm not saying anyone here is doing this XD) have to keep bringing up "Ugh Bra is shit" on every page lol
Also in hindsight I should have added in 2 more options for "Like" "Dislike" for more nuance instead of love and hate. But nuanced opinions can be other lol
NOOOOOO Popo whyyyyyyyy! XD
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 13:33:31 GMT
Your apology isn't good enough Khan! Might I suggest:
Anyway I wouldn't worry about it, if it persists bothering me I'll simply fill it in. I don't really know why having the signature "opened" like that bugs me so much but it does :/
Yeah that's true. It's basically just annoying spam. I like being able to have civil discussions/arguments with people who are fans of the same franchise of course, it's a great way to communicate, but people who just spout "Shut up dumbass my opinion is right because... I say it is... shut up stupid you're wrong!" just irk me. Both sides are guilty of this and similar.
Oh mighty Popo, may you do us all the kindness of please shitting so Archon can be whole once again? Amen.
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Post by Archon on Aug 25, 2016 19:09:46 GMT
Holy crap I actually hadn't considered this. This would explain her insane urge to kill Zangya at first. Her watching Pan get killed could have been the first time she had ever felt loss. And felt powerless to do anything about it as well because otherwise she would be directly responsible for Pan not being wished back by the Dragonballs.
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on Aug 25, 2016 20:21:45 GMT
What do you put down if you don't like her at all but don't extremely hate her? Would that be neutral or would that simply be hating her? Or would it be "Other?" Hell if I know xD. Sorry if the following quotes look awkward, I can't be bothered to learn the system properly Yeah, I think the poll would have worked better as like/neutral/dislike, there shouldn't be an "Other" option there Love and Hate are the two extremes, I'm sure there's people who leaned one way or another that just tossed their vote on neutral or other because they're opinions weren't strong enough to fit with the love/hate options.
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Post by EvilXoda on Aug 25, 2016 20:55:36 GMT
Love and Hate are the two extremes, I'm sure there's people who leaned one way or another that just tossed their vote on neutral or other because they're opinions weren't strong enough to fit with the love/hate options. Bah, pussies. Choose a side! They're fictional characters, you're not gonna hurt any feelings.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 25, 2016 22:58:30 GMT
Love and Hate are the two extremes, I'm sure there's people who leaned one way or another that just tossed their vote on neutral or other because they're opinions weren't strong enough to fit with the love/hate options. Bah, pussies. Choose a side! They're fictional characters, you're not gonna hurt any feelings. Like someone said before, fictions are made to evoke emotions. I'm sad that so many people are treating Bra like a villain, to the point of cheer at Cold (the real villain) to win! Bra has some bad traits (like everyone), but she never did something really evil.
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Post by opiomorph on Aug 25, 2016 23:43:54 GMT
Bah, pussies. Choose a side! They're fictional characters, you're not gonna hurt any feelings. Like someone said before, fictions are made to evoke emotions. I'm sad that so many people are treating Bra like a villain, to the point of cheer at Cold (the real villain) to win! Bra has some bad traits (like everyone), but she never did something really evil. Well, Kold's villainy is merely inferred, if really obvious, but on panel - he's managed to actually become likable(yes, you can like villains) and by far more tolerable than Bra. Who constantly throws her shitshow of a personality in our faces. Is it really so surprising, that after all the shit Bra has pulled, including but not limited to insults and condescension she flung at Kold, that when he finally did the impossible, touched the untoachable and broke the unbreakable, and started to beat the everloving shit outa' her - the crowd went wild and fandom recoiced? Also, people have a tendency to root for the underdog, and Kold's was the underdog - for the whole fight, he was a split second away from becoming a bloodstain, if he managed to push the wrong button... Other, I guess... I dislike the character, but hate the writing involved with her.
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Post by EvilXoda on Aug 26, 2016 0:30:24 GMT
Like someone said before, fictions are made to evoke emotions. I'm sad that so many people are treating Bra like a villain, to the point of cheer at Cold (the real villain) to win! Bra has some bad traits (like everyone), but she never did something really evil. True about the fictions evoking emotions thing, which is why I roll my eyes anytime I hear someone getting antsy at another about hating a fictional character. That's what they are made to do, particularly villains. So long as nobody is threatening to bomb to the writers and artists, everything should be all good. Let the people hate Jarjar I say. Jarjar don't give no fucks. Well in Cold's case, he's cheered BECAUSE he's a villain. People want them to build up 'heat' so to speak, so when they have their last stand, it feels earned and awesome for both sides. It's like when people cheer for heels in wrestling; they WANT to see the heel be an asshole to the good guy faces, that's what he's there for. And in this case I think that beyond Bra winning, people wanted to see Cold go far in the tournament; he was the last Frost demon in the tourney, and ever since the end of Freeza saga, they have been casual punching bags for the Super Saiyans and they want to see their rep restored as a legit threat. I guess this tournament, considering how high level the competition was becoming in the later rounds, pushed it as far as the envelope could go without pulling a Golden Freeza, but it still burns that his final match was with someone who had to hold back a tremendous amount while he had to pull two forms out of his butt to make it a remote challenge between the two. But Bra's in this weird position where she acts like a douchebag meanwhile, but hasn't and may not get any retribution for it because she's not a villain. She's basically like Sasuke/Soi Fong/Hiei/Bakugou, but without the foil to her attitude to blunt it, someone to say "you're acting like a dick", or climb up onto their soapbox and yank them down. Thus the irritation among the general populous. Infact, she's a lot like Tatsumaki in One Punch Man, who is uber powerful, has a HUGE attitude, and the fanbase as a love/hate relationship with thus. (But I would argue that Tatsu is still handled better than Bra in DBM at this point in their respective webcomics.)
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on Aug 26, 2016 2:16:20 GMT
Some of my favorite characters in fiction are villains, I never really understood the argument not to cheer for them. Yeah if they existed in real life I wouldn't support their actions and want them destroyed, but fiction is different. Villains and antagonists are often the most compelling and entertaining parts of the story; whether they're straight up evil scumbags you love to hate, morally grey villains with interesting ideologies, or just straight up badasses that steal the show, the quality of the villain can often make or break a story. Because ultimately the heart of the story is in the conflict, the struggles and obstacles they characters have to overcome, and the tougher the obstacle the more we can appreciate the character for toppling the odds, which is why people like to root for the underdog as opiomorph stated.
I like Cold because I enjoy his family dynamic with his two sons, I find his history to be interesting, he exudes a regal charisma and has been pretty awesome this whole tournament. I liked the pragmatism he was showing before the match went underway and made him look like a bumbling doofus so that Bra could look cooler. Off the top of my head I can think of many Cold moments that stood out to me. "Come, attack me both together" "You think I'm scared of an opponent who can read the future? My opponents have no future" "A little message to all Saiyans who still think they can oppose us"
He took a character from the show who never got a chance to show himself off, came from the universe that everyone had written off as a non-factor, and turned him into a cool and dignified fighter worthy of the title of king. He's been an underdog that has overcome all the obstacles to make it to this round in the tournament, even taking out one of those Super Saiyans that have always been the bane of his family, then he went into a match against an opponent who by all means could have pasted him in one punch and against all odds brought her to the stage where she was face down in a puddle of her blood unable to fight back. That was the ultimate underdog victory in the comic to me, but alas, it wasn't meant to be. And then after two rounds building Cold up as a figure to be respected, he throws it all off to the side and makes him look like a clown used to show how amazing Bra is. Gast vs Cold from the special was an example on how to make the stronger fighter win while still showing respect to both opponents; Raichi vs Vegeta is how you make an intense match with twists and turns that gives the losing fighter a great spotlight in their final bout. Bra vs Cold is how you force your creators pet character down everyone's throats as the greatest thing since sliced bread, all at the expense of the other fighter.
Bra? She's an obnoxious loudmouth who treats everyone like shit, which on it's own wouldn't even be that bad to me if she at least had some redeeming qualities to balance it out, or if she was an antagonist that we're supposed to want to see humbled. Character dynamics? She's apparently best friends with Pan, and everything else is her being an asshole to them while they either ignore it or cower in fear, aside from Piccolo who I suppose she's cool with. Conflict? There is none with Bra, every opponent she's face has come into the match as a massive underdog. Every time Salagir builds up some sort of conflict it is never on her to work past or overcome it, Salagir tosses her a bone and gives her an easy way out that she didn't have to work for. Bra lost control and hurt Gohan and Vegetto? Don't worry, the Vargas finally sent Broly home. Bra completely loses her shit and murders Zangya despite being told not to by Vegetto? All is forgiven, that Cell Games tier SSJ level opponent was just so feeble and weak that its her fault for not surviving the wind pressure of bloodlusted Bra's mighty punch. Bra got played by Cold and paid the price for it by getting beaten into submission by Cold? No, she had instant heal senzu beans the whole time, just don't ask when she got them or how they got into her mouth. How does she overcome Cold now that she's back in the match? Oh, he was never a threat in the first place, she wasn't even trying and had a bunch of nonsensical techniques that could have ended the fight instantly. This isn't a character that works to overcome the conflict presented to them, this is the author giving her a free pass out of every conflict she finds herself in. It's boring and there's nothing to root for, the few times she ended up in a situation with even a remote semblance of tension involved, Salagir somehow manages to destroy it within the next page or two, and she never once grows an ounce as a character from any of it.
Despite all of the spotlight that Bra has gotten, when I think of the Bra moments that I really enjoyed... few stuff really comes to mind, she has some memorable scenes, but they're usually memorable for all the wrong reasons. Her initial SSJ transformation I thought was a big surprise and was cool when it happened... not so much anything else
She's constantly forced on us as some sort of Creator's Pet getting unwarranted amounts of attention. At this stage in the comic she has the most panel time out of anyone in the main tournament. Ashanark did a tally and Goku and Vegeta have the most pages, but their main role is basically just being the guys to cut to for commentary on the match. Bra actually gets large spotlight in bulk being tied to a lot of the big events in the comics to the point where the main cast often feels like it's playing second fiddle to U16; Bra is mad at Bojack and gets a big episode of her turning SSJ and wanting revenge, Bra goes into space and has a battle to stop Buu from obtaining Broly, Vegetto needs to give Bra a lecture of self-control before her fight with Zangya (a lecture that resulted in nothing), and so forth. Her first special didn't even focus on a story, it was basically "Look how cool Bra is" the chapter; she punches slimy diplomats, she does laps around the planet for training, she was born stronger than Nappa and newborn Broly, monsters under the bed are scared of her... Bra vs Cold, another "Look how cool Bra" chapter; plenty of gratuitous shots in the volleyball sequence that exist solely to show off her figure, a senzu bean deus ex machina to keep her in the match, the main cast constantly being in awe of her power and greatness, that gum clone thing that came out of nowhere to show her zany cool abilities, and then two pages for her ultimate scythe technique, one a full body shot of her with Cold looking terrified and then a two pager showing off the attack; something not even other grand techniques like the Final Dragon Flash or Uub's Super Kamehameha earned and leaving the end of this match to extend past a slow length special of... even more Bra.
A Bra special, and I find it hard to buy as a coincidence that the Bra special just so happened to be one of the best drawn and 3rd out of 25 to be in full color just by chance and not favoritism. He says Bra was meant to be dislikable, but then he goes and throws her on cover pages even when she has nothing to do with the chapter, decides she's the character everyone wants to see along with the announcement of Gogeta Jr. retiring, jumps to her defense when he hears people don't like her, and even apparently deleted some comments about Bra that were valid criticism and not blind hate. It gets a bit ridiculous over all, if she was guilty of just some of these things then she'd be more tolerable, but all of it adds up to a lot more than just a "little problem".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 5:10:39 GMT
I don't mind U16 Bra the way is she (I don't have any actual feelings for her one way or the other at the moment).
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 26, 2016 5:46:50 GMT
Some of my favorite characters in fiction are villains, I never really understood the argument not to cheer for them. Yeah if they existed in real life I wouldn't support their actions and want them destroyed, but fiction is different. Villains and antagonists are often the most compelling and entertaining parts of the story; whether they're straight up evil scumbags you love to hate, morally grey villains with interesting ideologies, or just straight up badasses that steal the show, the quality of the villain can often make or break a story. Because ultimately the heart of the story is in the conflict, the struggles and obstacles they characters have to overcome, and the tougher the obstacle the more we can appreciate the character for toppling the odds, which is why people like to root for the underdog as opiomorph stated.
[And the rest...] One thing I appreciate about you, Dr. Wheelo, is that you research things and think them through. Big post incoming (but technically shorter than Wheelo's)...
About Cold:
I would agree that there are tons of villains who are more likable than the heroes. Darth Vader, for example, is the most famous and beloved part of Star Wars. Often we like villains because readers tend to like characters that are dynamic, have flaws, and are competent, and villains usually have a good mix of those.
Cold is more likable than Bra. He's gotten better lines, he's had closer fights (eh, on second thought he was most definitely going to beat Videl, but at least he wasn't gloating about it), and though he's pretty obviously evil and a bad guy, he hasn't been as actively jerkish as Bra. He's definitely acted more mature. I think one problem some Bra-defenders have is when other fans say Bra "deserves" to get beaten by Cold. Anti-Bra fans probably make that statement because Bra has done something morally wrong by being a jerk (which I would agree she has) and needs to be punished for it. I'd say the point Bra defenders are trying to make is that Cold has also done (or is at least implied to have done) morally wrong things, too--much worse things. Saying "Bra needs to be taught a lesson, she's such a jerk" but giving Cold a free pass is unfair, because it's excusing one character's flaws simply because they're more likable. It'd be more fair if people said both Bra and Cold need to be taught a lesson.
I would agree with you that Salagir's done something pretty impressive by taking the lamest member of the Frost Demons and turning him into the coolest by far. In my opinion, Salagir didn't really need to do anything ridiculous or shark-jumping to make it happen, either--while some don't like the 6th form, I actually like it (it's a lot more original than many other designs, and it's a nice thematic connection with his 3rd form.)
I would disagree that Cold was an underdog in this fight against Bra, though. Against an unrestrained Bra? You bet. But since Piccolo stated Cold was stronger, faster, and tougher than Bra, Cold was not the underdog with the restriction in place. I don't know about you, but when I saw that page of Cold looming and leering over Bra, I wasn't thinking "Oh man, Cold's really going to have to play it smart to win this." Bra, in her base form, appeared to be the underdog. Until she pulled the senzu bean and secret moves (which I'll get to in a second.)
Even though Cold's apparently lost, I wouldn't say he's been humiliated that much, either: he still 1) was too dangerous for Bra in close-quarters combat, 2) was too tough for her ki tennis to do much besides tick him off, 3) was fast enough to dodge her spirally attack, 4) got to beat the everliving crap out of her, 5) was smart enough to try for a pre-emptive kill, even if it didn't work, and 6) was apparently still strong enough that Bra had to switch from basic attacks to completely unforeseen and broken moves to beat him. Even on top of that, 7) Cold was still fast enough to (mostly) dodge two Instant Movement attacks, which was more than Cell, Buu, Frieza (counting DBM) and Beerus (looking at Battle of Gods for comparison). And in Cold's defense, the moves Bra used against him probably would've worked against just about everybody else in the same situation--Goku, Vegeta, Gohan.
About Bra:
The thing is, Salagir has shown that he is good at portraying characters the way he wants. U4 Buu is awesome. Cell is awesome. Raichi is awesome. I think Gast is awesome. Even the fact that we are having this conversation about Cold shows that he was able to take a lame character and make him awesome. In my mind, Salagir has shown time and again that he is very good at portraying characters the way he wants them to be viewed by his audience.
So, when you bring up all the things that Bra does that she gets away with (and I agree with your list), my thought is that Salagir doesn't want us to like Bra. We feel that it's unjust for her to get away with all this, so we don't like her. When we see her pull out new and impossible moves, there's a mix of "Huh?" and "That's cool" but also anger. Bra's characterization is consistent. It's intentional. Salagir has stated as much, and we've got too much evidence of his good writing for me to be easily convinced that Bra's dislikability is a fluke. Salagir might not have anticipated just how much people would hate her, but if the author intends for you to hate a character and you do, that's actually a compliment to their writing ability--you're reacting exactly as desired.
Why would Salagir make Bra such a jerk? I can think of a few reasons: --maybe he wants to add more variety among the good guy side than the standard pure-hearted hero. --maybe having a good guy who is a jerk and stronger than Goku makes us root for U18 more. Seriously--if it came down to Goku vs. Bra, who would you be cheering for? If the answer is Goku, then Salagir's succeeded in having the reader support U18, who are the real protagonists. --maybe Bra is going to be a villain at some point--or at least an antagonist--and all of this jerkishness has been foreshadowing that.
Salagir has predicted DBM will be over 2,000 pages, which means we're roughly halfway through the story. If Bra was to be humbled in this fight against Cold--like, really humbled, to the point where people couldn't complain about her being a jerk--then she'd spend the next one thousand pages being another vanilla good-guy. Which I think would make her even more frustrating.
Bra looks pretty set to win against Cold at this moment, but if by some freak chance she ends up losing, would that be enough to get people off her case? What if U16 chews her out when she gets back? Would that be enough? I think what people really want is to see Bra change, and only a severe moment of humiliation or loss is going to make it happen. And Cold isn't the one to do it. If Bra thinks anything like Vegito, she'd probably think "In a real fight [where I could go Super Saiyan] I could've beaten him, easy" and not learn anything. If she loses to Gast or Raichi? It'll either inflate her ego that someone so strong was required to take her down, or else it'll make her think she just needs to train more. In my opinion, Bra will only learn her lesson when something happens to completely shatter her view that strength is everything. And I honestly doubt that this can happen through fighting in the tournament.
Bra using senzus is completely consistent with her character. She doesn't care about honor; she cares about being better than other fighters, and to her she's better if she wins. She's like that snotty kid in 4th grade who'd challenge you to a game of basketball during recess and then stay late after the bell rang, scoring points and snickering about how they've won, even though you weren't playing anymore. And how Bra waited to use her special moves? It's like professional Super Smash Bros. players who pick Pichu against newbie opponents to taunt them, but immediately switch back to Fox when they're afraid of losing. About Bra's screentime: before this fight, Bra would've been about 8th in screentime going by panels and around 12th going by pages. That is much closer to where she should be. I wouldn't be surprised if she starts to sink back down again once this fight is behind us. Also, if we're going to get after Salagir for having another Bra special, then we should also get after him for putting so much focus on Kakarot, who's gotten four and has far more screentime if we include them than Bra does. (So do Vegito and Buu.)
EDIT: Spoiler tags aren't working. Oh well. Sorry, everybody. Got them to work.
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on Aug 26, 2016 8:10:11 GMT
My response got more long winded than anticipated so I've put it in spoilers. I would disagree that Cold was an underdog in this fight against Bra, though. Against an unrestrained Bra? You bet. But since Piccolo stated Cold was stronger, faster, and tougher than Bra, Cold was not the underdog with the restriction in place. I don't know about you, but when I saw that page of Cold looming and leering over Bra, I wasn't thinking "Oh man, Cold's really going to have to play it smart to win this." Bra, in her base form, appeared to be the underdog. Until she pulled the senzu bean and secret moves (which I'll get to in a second.) I wasn't thinking "Oh man, Cold's really going to have to play smart to win this." I was thinking "Oh man, Cold really did play smart to win this." Cold had actually managed to turn the tables on a one sided stomp by playing smart and exploiting her big weakness of Saiyan pride, sure Buu gave him the idea to negotiate the match terms with Bra, but the execution was all on Cold. He's the one that decided the Super Saiyan restriction, he's the one that held back two separate transformations to take her off guard, and he's the one that decided to hover above the ring so he could get away with it scott-free. I thought the 6th form was excessive, but at that point Cold had outplayed Bra and turned the tides in his favor to overcome his underdog status, and just when he beats her into submission Salagir yanks the rug from under us and hits the reset button on the match. The problem is everything cool that Cold did was completely negated the instant Bra uttered the words that she had been holding back the entire fight and it only got to that point because she allowed it to... then she gets serious and reveals she could have ended the fight instantly any time she wanted as Cold just sits there looking like a defenseless punching bag to Bra's "crazy awesome" techniques. To me the entire match before the senzu bean essentially just became meaningless fluff, just Bra playing around with her food for a bit, the same Bra who was only using about 2% of her power to begin with against Cold who had to transform twice to even step in the ring against her. As a Cold fan I don't think he came out looking respectable in the slightest. I'm able to recognize the difference between a character I hate for the right reasons and a character I hate for the wrong reasons. If I were to take an example from another Shonen, One Piece for instance, I would think of the character Spandam. Spandam was scum of the earth who beat on a woman chained up and unable to defend herself, mocked people about the tragedies he was responsible for causing them straight to their face, refused any accountability and tossed his subordinates under the bus to save himself; there was nothing redeemable about him and that left me on the edge of my seat waiting in anticipation for the satisfying moment where he gets his shit wrecked by the main cast. With Bra I've lost interest in seeing what happens with her. I don't care to see her humbled, I don't care to see her evolve, I just don't care... he's killed any interest I had in Bra or her character arc, and I don't think that's the reaction Salagir desired. She's a character devoid of any tension that I feel detracts from the comic. And Salagir's actions don't match his words. If one wants a character to be dislikable then they wouldn't go around playing defense-squad and start calling out the commenters who claim they don't like the characters or throw the character on covers meant to be received in a positive light. And I think it's writing 101 that if you're going to have a character meant to grate the audience, then you have to make them scarce enough that they don't start hurting the actual quality of your project. Character change is a gradual progress, it shouldn't be a single event that happens that leaves Bra saying "Oh, I'm humbled now, Goku 2.0 here" but an evolution happening through several steps. That's what good storytelling does. Bra... she's gotten into three scenarios which should have evolved her character forward and instead of showing progress towards the better, she's somehow managed to become even worse with each new event. Being good doesn't make you boring or the same either. We're 1225 pages in with Bra being an obnoxious brat worse then ever and it's made me despondent to the character and completely disinterested in whatever Salagir plans to do with her, and judging from the comment board I'm far from the only one who's done with Bra and rather not see any more of her. If it's like this at 1225 then how bad do you think it will be if it takes till page 1800 to make any progress on that character arc, I can give Salagir credit where it's due, but he's not nearly a good enough writer to turn that scenario around. There's a point where you ostracize and detach a character so far from the community that there's not much you can do to salvage it, if he continues at this pace with Bra then nobody's going to even want to see her change character, they'll instead be chanting for her to get killed off in a brutal fashion. We actually already had a lot of those guys coming out of the woodworks now. Right now more than anything people just want a complete break from Bra altogether, especially with this snails paced special chapter of her coming out right after last match. Unfortunately, Salagir has piled up so much animosity towards Bra with the recent chapters that no amount of Bra getting chewed out is going to get people to lay off her. Hell, if Vegetto lost control and broke her nose I'd be expecting more cheers than sympathy. People felt sympathy for Bra when Cold laid into her and left her a bloody mess, if instead of collapsing she stood firm and squeezed out a win despite her being bloodied up, that not only would have eased her desenters but would have gained her some respect and new supporters... the senzu bean incident kind of crushed his opportunity to make people feel sympathy for her, I saw a lot of comments about how people wouldn't make the mistake of sympathizing with her again after that one. I don't think it's that consistent with her character, I think it's very hypocritical actually after preaching about how the fight was no obstacle and getting on XXI's case about using unfair tactics to win. Unless you mean she's consistently hypocritical. Character consistency is far from my biggest or only problem with the senzu bean stunt. It's the most criticized move in DBM history for good reason, a topic I've gone over several times and so has just about everyone else in the comment. Instead of a good response Salagir basically shrugged his shoulders and said "Eh, it was off-panel". In my eyes this move was fundamentally broken from every angle possible, it was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. For the Cold fan this was the biggest slap to the face Salagir could have given us, because this happened at his expense. He effectively won the fight by beating his opponent to where she could no longer fight back, and then Salagir stepped in and reset the match with yet another get out of jail free card for Bra and turned him into a mockery who had to carry an "idiot ball" in order for this to even happen. For the people who want tension in the fights, they've lost the ability to care about the rest of this match or any of Bra's future matches since she can whip out these beans any time she feels like for a full-restore at a moments notice. Hell, anyone related with senzu beans can now do it, it's been set as a precedent and Pandora's box is now opened. If Bra gets her face caved in next fight then why should I care? She's just a "munch, munch" away from being good as new. For people who want good writing and story consistency devoid of plot holes then this is a nightmare. Why she brought them in against an opponent she had complete and utter confidence she could crush with ease? Piccolo previously established to be holding all of the senzu beans of U16? Bra blocking attacks with her gloves and getting every square inch pounded in by Cold? Bra spitting out blood just prior? Bra being completely immobile in 1000x gravity with such little energy that Gohan and Pan can't even tell if she's still alive? That her hands were never anywhere near her mouth? Nah, none of that matters because "off-panel" and "she had them the whole time". It was stupid, and while the vitriol got out of hand, I think the massive backlash of criticism he got for it was warranted. The difference is that Kakarot is actually constantly developing and his universe is actually one of the ones with the most intrigue. There are a ton of questions people have always had on Universe 13. Nobody questions what went down in U16 because it's pretty self-explanatory, Vegetto was born and had a powerful daughter, all of the important events and obstacles we'd want to see them deal with have largely already passed and after the rundown from the quick rundown from the first Bra special there's not a feeling that there's much to explore. There's also already a full length soap opera novel detailing events for the few who are interested. There universe is about as mysterious as U18, nobody really cares. U3, U5, U7, U8, U9, U13, U17... those are the universes with appeal since they leave a lot of questions unanswered. U11 has some interest as well, apparently they had Majin Vegeta who rebelled... Dabura is still alive, Goku and Gotenks failed somehow and Buu never turned on Babidi. That's the Buu saga special we should have gotten instead of the U12 one.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 26, 2016 12:29:03 GMT
Why would Salagir make Bra such a jerk? I can think of a few reasons: --maybe he wants to add more variety among the good guy side than the standard pure-hearted hero. --maybe having a good guy who is a jerk and stronger than Goku makes us root for U18 more. Seriously--if it came down to Goku vs. Bra, who would you be cheering for? If the answer is Goku, then Salagir's succeeded in having the reader support U18, who are the real protagonists. --maybe Bra is going to be a villain at some point--or at least an antagonist--and all of this jerkishness has been foreshadowing that.
The point is: Salagir made her realistic. And this is what makes me fan of Salagir's work: he considers logic, not passion. I had already explained a thousand of times and, sincerely, I can't understand WHY people can't just understand that Bra's behavior is highly consistent with her background. The following combination: teen + beauty + powers of a goddess + never faced failure in life This makes impossible the person be humble. There are two ways that can humble a person: - Age (maturity) - Failures And Bra never had any of them. She can kick the asses of the gods themselves (kaioshins) if she wants. So guys, stop blamming Salagir. The true culprits are Vegetto and Bulma, once they are bad parents.
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Post by Lord Rime on Aug 26, 2016 14:44:23 GMT
I don't think it's that consistent with her character, I think it's very hypocritical actually after preaching about how the fight was no obstacle and getting on XXI's case about using unfair tactics to win. Unless you mean she's consistently hypocritical. Yes, she is consistently hypocritical. She got on XXI's case about his unfair tactic of teleporting Vegito somewhere else, but what she did to Eleim is, for all intents and purposes, the exact same tactic. She won by ring-out in a way Eleim had no way to defend against, just as XXI won by ring-out in a way Vegito had no way to defend against. I think this is where I fundamentally differ with people. No, he had not won his fight, effectively or otherwise. Within the context of the Tournament, Bra doesn't lose until the Vargas say so, either by disappearing for 30 seconds, being unconscious for 30 seconds, or dying. Outside the context of the Tournament - if this had been a "real" fight within which Bra couldn't go Super Saiyan for some reason - Cold still would not have won. The fight is not over until it's over. The same logic that Gohan used against Vegito - that it doesn't matter if XXI's tactic was "fair" because in a real fight XXI would have been able to destroy the Earth a thousand times over - applies to this fight, only in reverse - Bra had a way to keep fighting even if she was unable for some reason to access what is arguably her most potent technique. She would be able to keep defending the Earth. Conversely, Cold demonstrated that he has no way of dealing with an opponent who can heal themselves mid-battle. What if he had been fighting Cell, or Buu, or Gast? Bra has the "worst" healing technique in the tournament since it requires equipment rather than inborn ability, and Cold still has no effective means of dealing with it. Oh, come on. You and I both know that if the story needs the beans to not be a viable option, there's a number of ways that they can be negated. I've been over this one too. "Every square inch" was not pounded by Cold. Leaving aside that that would be a terrible idea from a martial arts perspective - if you have the option of hitting anywhere on an opponent's body, you go for blow to the head, chest, or gut, not extremities - the art of the comic itself bears out that where the beans were kept were unscathed. Comic 1209, after blocking (and teleporting away from) Cold's big energy attack, then playing Ki tennis, we see clearly that the inside of her gloves are unharmed. Comic 1214, when she transports to the arena floor (incidentally, with her right hand near her mouth while doing so). While it's not a clear shot, we can see that the inside of her right glove is essentially untouched. Comic 1217, Bra's epic trollface, where we further confirm that the inside of Bra's right glove, where she keeps her senzu beans based on how they are falling out of them, is essentially unscathed. Comic 1218, wherein Bra explains why what she did is totally fair by any reasonable standard that takes Cold's own deceptions into account, which further confirms that the inside of her gloves are unscathed. The art has consistently shown only the outside of Bra's gloves and arms got damaged, while the inside - where the beans are - was not. This makes sense given how one goes about blocking incoming attacks with one's arms.
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Post by Shady Doorags on Aug 26, 2016 15:11:15 GMT
Why would Salagir make Bra such a jerk? I can think of a few reasons: --maybe he wants to add more variety among the good guy side than the standard pure-hearted hero. --maybe having a good guy who is a jerk and stronger than Goku makes us root for U18 more. Seriously--if it came down to Goku vs. Bra, who would you be cheering for? If the answer is Goku, then Salagir's succeeded in having the reader support U18, who are the real protagonists. --maybe Bra is going to be a villain at some point--or at least an antagonist--and all of this jerkishness has been foreshadowing that.
The point is: Salagir made her realistic. And this is what makes me fan of Salagir's work: he considers logic, not passion. I had already explained a thousand of times and, sincerely, I can't understand WHY people can't just understand that Bra's behavior is highly consistent with her background. The following combination: teen + beauty + powers of a goddess + never faced failure in life This makes impossible the person be humble. There are two ways that can humble a person: - Age (maturity) - Failures And Bra never had any of them. She can kick the asses of the gods themselves (kaioshins) if she wants. So guys, stop blamming Salagir. The true culprits are Vegetto and Bulma, once they are bad parents. It's not that Bra is a jerk or super powerful. We have a lot of jerks and a lot of overpowered characters in DBZ, some of which are fan favorites specifically because of these traits. The problem is the balance of Bra. As in... there is none. No matter what characteristic you have, there is a negative side to that characteristic, and the less you're willing to adapt to situations, which Bra is not willing to do at all, than the more problems you will face from the negative side of your trait. As is said many times in this thread, Bra never faces the consequences of the negative sides of her character. Even when she fails, the plot helps her escape any punishment she was supposed to face. When Vegeta acts like a jerk, we're glad that he ruthlessly kills his opponents, yet understand when his arrogance gets him beaten and killed. When Goku act righteous, we're glad that he's willing to give his opponent's a fighting chance, yet understand when those opponents become a great threat later. We like that Gotenks plays around with his opponents (well... some of us do) but we understand that doing so eats up his time and gives his opponent plenty of chances to attack back. If Salagir wants us to respect Bra as a character, he needs to have her pay for her Personality, like a good character should, and stop inventing these "get out of jail free" cards for her because that's not realistic, that's the plot helping her out just to be convenient. As I said in another post, Bra likes to take risks. These are exciting because they are moves that have a heavy consequence but are only worth taking if they succeed. Since Bra doesn't suffer the heavy consequences, she can do whatever she wants because a risk will always work in her favor, completely nullifying the concept of a risk. *** And that whole "Salagir considers logic not passion"... I call nonsense on that. Salagir made Broly a ssj while frozen because he was recognizable. He gave Cold a second augmented transformation despite having Piccolo mention how Freiza and his family don't train. He turned u13 Vegeta into a SSj3 just because he was angry and knew it existed, something which u18 actually tried to do when he lost to android 18 with ssj2. And, of course, his infamous response of Bra having beans in her gloves and somehow getting them into her mouth... She got easy access to them, you didn't see all her moves between panels. And this gravity doesn't even pull hairs down nor shred clothes, an not even group all matter in a black hole as it should! This is DBZ gravity, the same universe physics where voices like "Behind you!" can have an effect on warriors fighting way way faster than mach 10... He doesn't care about being realistic, he cares about telling the story he wants to tell and will bend the rules of both reality, canon dragon ball, and even basic storytelling to make that happen. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly shows he can't be defended with "it's okay because he's trying to make it realistic."
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