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Post by Archon on Aug 23, 2016 19:13:59 GMT
For everyone to answer. Just so we can get an idea of people's opinions.
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Post by kinnikuman on Aug 23, 2016 19:24:11 GMT
sad ruined character who could have been great.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 23, 2016 19:39:56 GMT
Well, you (Archon) already know my opinion: she has some bad traits (like everyone), but she is not an evil person.
But sadly, in the current world, when you say "a girl needs some girl's treatment", you are called "sexist", HAHA. This current generation is fucking the world society, seriously.
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Post by Kaio del Norte on Aug 23, 2016 19:46:01 GMT
Her personality and skills are 100% consistent with her age and background if you ask me.
You might like her or not but keep in mind she isn't meant to be likeable. She is better than that: she is realistic!
Now, I think most haters have obvious personal issues regarding women. If you think she is too much the centre of attention in the comic that's a valid, debatable opinion. But comments like 'she needs to get punished lmfao fuckin cunt mary sue' or 'she needs to do girly stuff and a man' only confirm your passive-aggressive beta maleness. Grow a pair, boys.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 23, 2016 19:51:46 GMT
For most of the part it was neutral, slightly liking. After this fight and senzu bullshit, my views have been notably swayed and now I think I slightly dislike her.
I hope this new chapter does something explaining why she likes empty bragging too much. Let's admit, regardless if you are a sexist or all for wymen's rights, carrying multiple healing items against someone who:
A) You could really beat with your finger untransformed (before whipping 2 new forms out of his ass) B) You felt confident enough to defeat him accepting a handicap C) Using the senzu would have been acceptable if she had commented something like "Damn! Even after bragging, I knew this could get out of control. Good I bought these hidden senzus!" D) On the other hand, she just pulled the senzus and bragged it to him, arguing her rule-bending trickery was even more advanced.
IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT.
I don't think she needs a boyfriend, I don't think she needs girly things. What she needs is more consistency between her loud mouth and her actions, and learning the concept of "consequences".
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Post by Android 13 on Aug 23, 2016 19:53:40 GMT
Opinion?Nice idea for a character, just bad execution/wrong character to make OP(a better choice would have been Uub in my opinion).
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 23, 2016 20:05:15 GMT
As for the rest, please avoid calling each other sexists, beta males, or SJWs. I think such epiphets are unnecessary to refer to other users, when only discussing a character. Those epiphets are basically baseless ad-hominems that only represent the frustration with the debater in question and do not advance the subject at all.
Is there any particular reason to take this too personally?
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Post by Axalon on Aug 23, 2016 20:28:34 GMT
Didn't care one way or the other, perhaps slight dislike when she failed to control her anger and killed Zangya after being told to restrain herself and just got a pat on the back for it, but aside from that just meh. Then the fight with Cold happened and I've veered towards disliking the character. Fight was overstretched out for a cheap senzu twist leading to a foregone conclusion.
Really I just want to see XXI vs Zen Buu at this point. I like Gast, but I'm worried he won't be able to keep up with Super Senzu Bra (or worse if she goes SS2). Even if the first thing he does is eliminate the senzu, I dread a panel where she's all "I don't need those to beat you anyway! I could beat you with my pinky!" or something, all with that grin on her face. You know the one.
XXI vs Buu on the other hand has potential. Unless more "off-panel" hi-jinks happen we know that Buu knows absolutely nothing about his next opponent other than his room was turned into some kind of dark dimension and one of his little mini-Buus got obliterated just for entering.
The other side of the tournament bracket has Goku vs. Uub (meh, Goku should take it handily) and Vegeta vs. probably Majin Super Perfect Cell (kinda interesting I guess, but Goku takes out Cell if Vegeta somehow can't). Aside from minor interest in the Cell fight that half of the bracket just feels mostly old hat, and will probably get interrupted with a special or two along the way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 20:44:27 GMT
At first I was just neutral. But after that senzu, I hate her.
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Post by Akroma on Aug 23, 2016 20:45:16 GMT
As for the rest, please avoid calling each other sexists, beta males, or SJWs. I think such epiphets are unnecessary to refer to other users, when only discussing a character. Those epiphets are basically baseless ad-hominems that only represent the frustration with the debater in question and do not advance the subject at all. Is there any particular reason to take this too personally? There is a very soft line that separates just an opinion of a personal attack. If I say I prefer DBGT and you say you prefer DBS, ok, it is your opinion. But when I say "a girl needs some girl's treatment" and someone calls me "sexist", this is an attack and this gives to me the right of defend myself. First, say "a girl needs some girl's treatment" is not sexism. Look at my avatar: do you really think a sexist would "worship" a woman? Or be fan of Lightning (another strong woman)? That woman in my profile could be a match to a SSy3! Do you really think a sexist would recognize that? When I said "a girl needs some girl's treatment", sincerely, I only said the truth, based on biology, not on twisted concepts from that fucking current "correct political" generation. And yes, having a daughter is not the same situation that having a son. You must understand that there are physical and mental differences between the two genders, and is not people's feminism that would change that. If you disagree, then go complain to Nature, not to me. Some of Bra's harshness could be due to the lack of some "girly things" in her life.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 23, 2016 21:00:01 GMT
There is a very soft line that separates just an opinion of a personal attack. If I say I prefer DBGT and you say you prefer DBS, ok, it is your opinion. But when I say "a girl needs some girl's treatment" and someone calls me "sexist", this is an attack and this gives to me the right of defend myself. The line is not soft to me. One thing is saying "I like Bra because blahblahblahblah". Another different one is "You are a sexist bigot and a beta male for not liking Bra". I also prefer DBGT too (but only slightly) but one thing is pointing out that thus far, in general outcomes of the serie, GT is only slightly better, and other is designating perceived negative ideological slurs to anyone disagreeing. I called out the use of all epiphets like that though (I mentioned 'sexist' too, but also the 'opposite' ones). I am not calling you a sexist though. I personally do not care if you are a sexist or hold gender-fluid views. It is irrelevant to me and to the topic of DBZ in general. What I'm advicing is everyone to stop using epiphets like that. You do not need to prove anything to me. I've neither expressed agreement or disagreement for such view. Well, this is pretty much explicitly implied in one of the first episodes of the Novel:
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 23, 2016 21:04:52 GMT
I guess I'd say I'm okay with U16 Bra. There are characters that I really "love" (as in, look forward to seeing more scenes for) such as U4 Buu, Cell, Gast, Goku, and Uub, and I wouldn't consider Bra to be one of those characters. Still, her fight against Eleim showed that she can think on her feet, and her idea to use ki tennis against Cold was actually quite clever. It seems clear to me she's intended to be a unlikable jerk for the time being, but since she hasn't really done anything wrong, per se, there's no reason for me to dislike her. Still looking forward to when she gets humbled, though.
U18 Bra, though? Awesome. She gets all the good zing! lines. Criminally underused; 1200 pages in and she still hasn't gotten a real scene (at least in the comic, never read that novelization excerpt Genghis just posted.) Hope she ends up doing something more important than just looking cute on the sidelines.
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Post by Jaquan on Aug 23, 2016 21:30:53 GMT
Can't really tell what exactly I feel about her. She does act like a typical teenager (if you replace the overall interest in guys and fashion with fighting). Trust me I saw lot's of teens and well they did have a tendency to have a terribly foul language. For sure I can't hate her. Maybe it's because for first time in... Dunno freaking long time considering I read quite a few fanfics, mangas and watched lot of Anime. Anyway I can't really recall seeing a character acting like her and for most part getting away with it. Not being praised for it, not being overly blamed but just getting away with her actions. Yes it makes her unlikable but frankly for me... It's what makes her likable. Yes I am pretty sure one way or another she will recieve some serious blow. Maybe when someone defeats her. Or maybe when she'll have to eventually stop/kill her own father.
It's also refreshing to see someone pragmatic among the "good guys". No seriously seeing someone actually thinking for a change and not being bound by that stupidity called in most case honor is somewhat nice.
I understand why she's hated. In the end she's a polar opposite of the DBZ poster boy Goku and her attitude is something that puts her in unfavorable light. I also doubt current special will change most people opinion but... I'd like to see what Salagir got in store for her.
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Post by Azoth on Aug 23, 2016 21:36:06 GMT
I maintain that she can be salvaged from where she is now. I'd love to see Vegeto's reaction to the match, as he didn't seem happy, and I do think that, while realistic, Bra needs to have her ego deflated a bit.
Also, honest question: how many people have read the novelization? I haven't, and if I'm going to read over a hundred chapters of something, it better be really damn good.
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Post by MajinLamp on Aug 23, 2016 21:48:28 GMT
I dont hate bra just think that she can be more than just a power house =)
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Post by Akroma on Aug 24, 2016 0:05:38 GMT
Genghis, I'm not saying YOU called me sexist, I was arguing in general. And about the novel, I agree with you. Plus, I think both u16 and u18 Bra are examples of my view: u16's Bra has excess of harshness and u18's Bra has excess of "princess". To me, the ideal is a middle-term between the two. A girl needs some princess moments, but a bit of harsh life is good too, to mature her and prevent her from being unable to defend herself alone.
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Post by jkrevan on Aug 24, 2016 0:06:41 GMT
I dont actually hate her, but yes, the character seems wasted, Salagir had the chance of making a really awesome female Saiyan, we got a brat instead.
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on Aug 24, 2016 1:33:33 GMT
If Bra was meant to be dislikable then Salagir sure did a hell of a job, though that statement was probably just some bizarre damage control since he defends her whenever he can. I liked her at first, but my opinion has been progressively lowering the more and more we see of her. The Cold fight has completely destroyed whatever interest I may have had in her character, she's feels like a massive creator's pet who does nothing but be obnoxious and eats up more spotlight than the main characters, and doesn't really have any redeeming traits to make me care for her. She might have overtaken Vegito as my least favorite. The beans and the incredibly sloppy way the fight was handled has unfortunately also killed any interest I have in seeing her fight again, I feel there's absolutely no tension when she's fighting. It's not just a Bra thing either, Uub has been one of my favorites, but I'd have to pull my support for him if he won a fight in the same manner that Bra did.
I don't buy into the whole "she's just a teenager" excuse either. I don't know what kind of upbringing you'd have to have to view that as an acceptable way to speak to ones parents, but I personally haven't seen teens ballsy enough to act like that, and if they do then it wouldn't be something to glorify or treat as okay.
U18 Bra, though? Awesome. She gets all the good zing! lines. Criminally underused; 1200 pages in and she still hasn't gotten a real scene (at least in the comic, never read that novelization excerpt Genghis just posted.) Hope she ends up doing something more important than just looking cute on the sidelines. U18 Bra I feel was meant to be the lame version meant to make U16 look cooler in comparison (see Chapter 11 cover), but she hasn't done anything to make me dislike her, and I've found her to be amusing enough when she does get a word in. She can be condescending but I prefer her snarky sharp cutting wit over the vulgar foul-mouthed version from U16. She's pretty cool, though I don't see what she could really do aside from commentary.
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Post by Archon on Aug 24, 2016 2:16:19 GMT
As for the rest, please avoid calling each other sexists, beta males, or SJWs. I think such epiphets are unnecessary to refer to other users, when only discussing a character. Those epiphets are basically baseless ad-hominems that only represent the frustration with the debater in question and do not advance the subject at all. Is there any particular reason to take this too personally? There is a very soft line that separates just an opinion of a personal attack. If I say I prefer DBGT and you say you prefer DBS, ok, it is your opinion. But when I say "a girl needs some girl's treatment" and someone calls me "sexist", this is an attack and this gives to me the right of defend myself. First, say "a girl needs some girl's treatment" is not sexism. Look at my avatar: do you really think a sexist would "worship" a woman? Or be fan of Lightning (another strong woman)? That woman in my profile could be a match to a SSy3! Do you really think a sexist would recognize that? When I said "a girl needs some girl's treatment", sincerely, I only said the truth, based on biology, not on twisted concepts from that fucking current "correct political" generation. And yes, having a daughter is not the same situation that having a son. You must understand that there are physical and mental differences between the two genders, and is not people's feminism that would change that. If you disagree, then go complain to Nature, not to me. Some of Bra's harshness could be due to the lack of some "girly things" in her life. No offense but I think part of it is thag your english isn't that great. (I'm assuming it's not your main language) but correct me if I'm wrong basically what you meant was she should have been given a choice to become a stereotypical girl or anything else she wanted yet she was basically raised to know only how to fight. Would that accurately cover what you meant?
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 24, 2016 2:34:15 GMT
U18 Bra I feel was meant to be the lame version meant to make U16 look cooler in comparison (see Chapter 11 cover), but she hasn't done anything to make me dislike her, and I've found her to be amusing enough when she does get a word in. She can be condescending but I prefer her snarky sharp cutting wit over the vulgar foul-mouthed version from U16. She's pretty cool, though I don't see what she could really do aside from commentary. Good point. It reminds me a bit of the Inheritance Cycle by Christopher Paolini, if you've ever read it. Paolini obviously intended for the reader to think Eragon, the main character, was some hardcore action hero, but actually his foster brother Roran was much more likable because he 1) wasn't a whiner, 2) wasn't a creeper, 3) wasn't a jerk and 4) could still be cool and useful without magic powers. (By the way: not to get off-topic, but now that I'm older, I don't really like the Eragon series anymore--over time it's gotten more obvious to me that the writing isn't that good.)
I think you're right: we're probably supposed to look at the U16 and U18 Bras (man, that's weird to type) and prefer the U16 one because she's a fighter, but actually U18 Bra has come off as more likable for the reasons you pointed out. Being seen in smaller doses also probably helps.
I also agree with you that U16 Bra has become more and more of a jerk as time goes by. While I think I can see what Salagir's doing--prepping us for something big to happen to Bra--knowing that it's intentional and that Bra will probably grow up later on doesn't make her jerkishness or immaturity any less grating in the moment.
Slightly off-topic: In Salagir's defense, even if Bra's dislikable he's still done a far better job of having relevant female characters than Toriyama or DBGT ever have. Android 18 and Videl only got one fight before getting kicked off to the sidelines for the rest of eternity, and Pan never did anything important in GT. DBM, meanwhile, has Android 18, two very brave Pans, the awesome U9 Videl, U16 Bra, and the weird U6 girls, which is a ton more females in combat than any other series of Dragon Ball has ever had. Even the small scene of U18 Videl taking down the Majin'd audience members does more respect to her character than anything in Super or GT.
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