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Post by Solus on Feb 7, 2023 8:20:03 GMT
Is there any merit in giving a suppressed Cell his own place? I mean, he suppressed himself to Cell games level when fighting Dabura, to his initial ssj2 level against bojack and probably the same level against Vegeta. But he could vary his power up to his 100 %, so why make a seperate entry for a suppressed state? U18 Vegeta’s SS2 was at a similar level to SS3 U13 Vegeta as it was stated in the novel. SSJ3 is a ten times boost from SSJ2 in DBM. I’d say U18 Vegeta would be slightly under Gohan . As gohan’s power never changed. Why did you quote me there? Your post doesn't seem to reference to mine in the slightest.
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Post by moealkaf123 on Feb 7, 2023 18:14:07 GMT
U18 Vegeta’s SS2 was at a similar level to SS3 U13 Vegeta as it was stated in the novel. SSJ3 is a ten times boost from SSJ2 in DBM. I’d say U18 Vegeta would be slightly under Gohan . As gohan’s power never changed. Why did you quote me there? Your post doesn't seem to reference to mine in the slightest. Sorry I was just trying to add in Vegeta’s power and was looking to see the last comment on it.
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Post by Solus on Feb 8, 2023 16:44:37 GMT
Why did you quote me there? Your post doesn't seem to reference to mine in the slightest. Sorry I was just trying to add in Vegeta’s power and was looking to see the last comment on it. Ah, ok. I thought I just missed some detail. It's been a while since I last frequented this sub.
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Post by drewsaga on Feb 17, 2023 1:03:12 GMT
Then we have Uub, the reincarnation of Buu of course. Many have said that Uub is an outlier because of that as far as physical strength goes but has Salagir even hinted at that? Uub is SSJ-level for sure but he basically needed Kaiokenx100 (His maximum Kaioken) to keep up with SSJ3 Goku and probably Kaokenx200 (Transcended, unknown multiplier, could have been x137.6 for all we know but I go with x200 since he was demolishing SSJ3 Goku, and himself of course). I think Uub might only be an outlier in terms of magic potential (As illustrated with him and U4 Buu interacting).
If i recall correctly, in multiverse each super saiyan form is 10 times stronger than the one before. That means SSJ3 Goku is 5000 times stronger than base goku in multiverse canon. Yet Uub kept up with him using a Kaioken "x100" There is no way in hell Uub didn't inherit at least SOME of Majin Buu's power Uub is already on par with SSJ1 Goku I do believe (possibly a bit stronger but far weaker than SSJ2 Goku of course). So no, Uub could go KKx100 and still match SSJ3 levels of power because by those multipliers, Uub would still keep up with SSJ3 Goku (except Kaioken at that level is even more terrible for your body than SSJ3 is).
I forgot if Salagir mentioned Uub being comparable to SSJ Goku (thanks to him being a reincarnation of Buu though that is a pretty low bar for Uub honestly) or if it was stated somewhere in the novel or manga (was a while ago last time I seen much on that.
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Post by drewsaga on Feb 17, 2023 1:07:25 GMT
Do you have a reference as to where U18 Vegeta was said to be that strong? If he actually is comparable to U13 SSJ3 Vegeta, wouldn't it go against Salagir's whole premise that SSJ2 can never be stronger than SSJ3?? In the novelization of The tournament. Page 148 “ As a Super Saiyan 3, the Saiyan emperor was utterly shocked by what he sensed — Vegeta’s energy as a mere level 2 was possibly a match for his own. There was no comparison between this and the power he’d put on display in the fight with Kakarotto. “ this is when both vegeta’s were about to square off. That was the novel, in DBM, U13 SSJ3 Vegeta is clearly more powerful (apparently Salagir goes by tiers, which is bogus, U18 SSJ2 Vegeta being able to rival U13 SSJ3 Vegeta sounds more plausible considering the training and experience that U18 Vegeta went through that puts U13 Vegeta's to shame). But then again, Goku and Vegeta taking on Frieza in base (maybe before unlocking the 5th Form since we are stretching there) is equally plausable. I mean Bra took on 6th Form Ginyu (in Cold's body) so why not?
Not that it matters, Goku and Vegeta are likely even and Gast and XXI's magic is far more dangerous than their physical abilities.
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Post by Solus on Feb 17, 2023 20:12:35 GMT
People on facebook are still arguing that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan ... Goes to show what a bad dub can do.
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Post by moealkaf123 on Feb 21, 2023 0:09:53 GMT
In the novelization of The tournament. Page 148 “ As a Super Saiyan 3, the Saiyan emperor was utterly shocked by what he sensed — Vegeta’s energy as a mere level 2 was possibly a match for his own. There was no comparison between this and the power he’d put on display in the fight with Kakarotto. “ this is when both vegeta’s were about to square off. That was the novel, in DBM, U13 SSJ3 Vegeta is clearly more powerful (apparently Salagir goes by tiers, which is bogus, U18 SSJ2 Vegeta being able to rival U13 SSJ3 Vegeta sounds more plausible considering the training and experience that U18 Vegeta went through that puts U13 Vegeta's to shame). But then again, Goku and Vegeta taking on Frieza in base (maybe before unlocking the 5th Form since we are stretching there) is equally plausable. I mean Bra took on 6th Form Ginyu (in Cold's body) so why not?
Not that it matters, Goku and Vegeta are likely even and Gast and XXI's magic is far more dangerous than their physical abilities.
Isn’t the novel considered cannon? Or no?
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Post by drewsaga on Feb 21, 2023 4:55:02 GMT
That was the novel, in DBM, U13 SSJ3 Vegeta is clearly more powerful (apparently Salagir goes by tiers, which is bogus, U18 SSJ2 Vegeta being able to rival U13 SSJ3 Vegeta sounds more plausible considering the training and experience that U18 Vegeta went through that puts U13 Vegeta's to shame). But then again, Goku and Vegeta taking on Frieza in base (maybe before unlocking the 5th Form since we are stretching there) is equally plausable. I mean Bra took on 6th Form Ginyu (in Cold's body) so why not?
Not that it matters, Goku and Vegeta are likely even and Gast and XXI's magic is far more dangerous than their physical abilities.
Isn’t the novel considered cannon? Or no? Not quite, in some instances it contradicts the manga, or at least I think so (may have to reread stuff).
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Post by drewsaga on Feb 21, 2023 5:05:10 GMT
People on facebook are still arguing that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan ... Goes to show what a bad dub can do. I have no idea where people get that from considering that Goku could fight Kid Buu just fine but was scared shit of fighting Super Buu who is weaker than Buuhan.
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Post by Solus on Feb 21, 2023 14:01:06 GMT
People on facebook are still arguing that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan ... Goes to show what a bad dub can do. I have no idea where people get that from considering that Goku could fight Kid Buu just fine but was scared shit of fighting Super Buu who is weaker than Buuhan. They base all their arguments on poorly translated lines from the anime. The most popular example might be old Kaioshin who says "This form of Buu is the strongest", when he actually says Kid Buu is the most dangerous because of his lack of reason. They go even further to say that Absorbing Grand Kaioshin considerably weakened Kid Buu (which would mean that Grand Kaioshin had to be stronger than all other absorbees of Super Buu together to make Kid Buu stronger than Buuhan). Also there exist some manga scans where Goku says that Kid Buu's regeneration and strength is on a whole other level than everything he ever witnessed, interpreting it in a way that Goku includes the other instances of Buu into this statement instead of talking about Buu in general. They are quoting several interviews of Toriyama where he supposedly confirms that Kid Buu is the strongest (without actually providing them) and other source books that aren't the manga.
And then there is that part about Buu's transformation when he loses all the absorbees and Fat Buu and suddenly turns into buff Buu, where even in the manga Vegeta claims that Buu's power rises instead of sinking. Even with a lot of brain gymnastics and good will this doesn't make any sense. Where was South Kai before and why does he suddenly vanish again? I mean, it's clear that Kid Buu plus South Kai is more than just Kid Buu. But where does South Kai go? Goku and Vegeta even comment that Buu's pl decreases again, but that is conveniently ignored by those idiots. And it's also not explained why that happened.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Feb 22, 2023 19:08:19 GMT
I have no idea where people get that from considering that Goku could fight Kid Buu just fine but was scared shit of fighting Super Buu who is weaker than Buuhan. They base all their arguments on poorly translated lines from the anime. The most popular example might be old Kaioshin who says "This form of Buu is the strongest", when he actually says Kid Buu is the most dangerous because of his lack of reason. They go even further to say that Absorbing Grand Kaioshin considerably weakened Kid Buu (which would mean that Grand Kaioshin had to be stronger than all other absorbees of Super Buu together to make Kid Buu stronger than Buuhan). Also there exist some manga scans where Goku says that Kid Buu's regeneration and strength is on a whole other level than everything he ever witnessed, interpreting it in a way that Goku includes the other instances of Buu into this statement instead of talking about Buu in general. They are quoting several interviews of Toriyama where he supposedly confirms that Kid Buu is the strongest (without actually providing them) and other source books that aren't the manga.
And then there is that part about Buu's transformation when he loses all the absorbees and Fat Buu and suddenly turns into buff Buu, where even in the manga Vegeta claims that Buu's power rises instead of sinking. Even with a lot of brain gymnastics and good will this doesn't make any sense. Where was South Kai before and why does he suddenly vanish again? I mean, it's clear that Kid Buu plus South Kai is more than just Kid Buu. But where does South Kai go? Goku and Vegeta even comment that Buu's pl decreases again, but that is conveniently ignored by those idiots. And it's also not explained why that happened.
I always thought of Buff Buu simply being a power-stressed form brought about by the sudden removal of his absorbed victims. That doesn't mean he is necessarily stronger than any other version of Buu. During his fight with SSJ2 Gohan, Cell also went into a power-stressed state and he wasn't any stronger for it. Some people just stick to their headcannons even when shown factual evidence that disproves it.
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Post by moealkaf123 on Apr 6, 2023 17:54:54 GMT
So... I decided to update my DBM strength ranking I made long ago. It's way to discuss Power levels in a friendly way without f@cking numbers. I've added a lot of new characters and Tier icons. Hope you like it and we can discuss. RULES:
-It's only an strength ranking, doesn't include things such as resistance, special techniques or magic abilities. -Each character appears only once at his/hers maximun power. (Except for Son Bra and Vegetto because they varie a lot) -Majinization not included. -Updated each chapter.
-Speculative characters appear in grey tones.
-Regarding canon: 1.DBM comic dialogue and fights. 2.Salagir statements. 3.Novelization.
FULL HD Version: R.I.P. EXTRA: LEVEL REFERENCESInclude sub-tiers, DBZ characters for comparison and extra DBM transformations. [/font][/font][/spoiler] [/quote] Do you guys know when this tier list would be updated or is there any sites for us to adjust this
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Post by Gogeta on May 15, 2023 1:33:36 GMT
Wonder where we'd rank Goku and Vegeta's new forms? I'd say around Mystic tier though whether or not their above Gohan raw power wise is up for debate. Nothing really backs up my reasoning I just think that makes the most sense.
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Post by Solus on Jun 5, 2023 19:48:44 GMT
Wonder where we'd rank Goku and Vegeta's new forms? I'd say around Mystic tier though whether or not their above Gohan raw power wise is up for debate. Nothing really backs up my reasoning I just think that makes the most sense. Considering that Goku mocked Vegeta when Bra powered up in Ssj1 about how she was stronger than them I wouldn't say that they are stronger than Gohan. However, Goku could have ment his well known SSJ3 power and not the new one of which he couldn't be sure that Vegeta had it too. Oh and btw: Considering Vegeta needs a lot of concentration to enter his "transformation" his claim to kill Hatchyak was bougus. He only had SSJ3 at his disposal and that surely wouldn't have been enough.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Nov 18, 2023 13:37:58 GMT
Wonder where we'd rank Goku and Vegeta's new forms? I'd say around Mystic tier though whether or not their above Gohan raw power wise is up for debate. Nothing really backs up my reasoning I just think that makes the most sense. Considering that Goku mocked Vegeta when Bra powered up in Ssj1 about how she was stronger than them I wouldn't say that they are stronger than Gohan. However, Goku could have ment his well known SSJ3 power and not the new one of which he couldn't be sure that Vegeta had it too. Oh and btw: Considering Vegeta needs a lot of concentration to enter his "transformation" his claim to kill Hatchyak was bougus. He only had SSJ3 at his disposal and that surely wouldn't have been enough. I don't think their new proto mystic forms make Goku or Vegeta any stronger than they would actually be with SSJ3. Their new "forms" make is so they can fight at that level of power far longer than they could in their actual SSJ3 forms.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Nov 18, 2023 19:41:53 GMT
My two cents. I think this form is supposed to be based off the anime where Gohan gets the SSJ green eyes briefly while angry at Old Kai thinking he's full of it right?
I also feel like it's super rare for a power up to give no power increase at all.
So my theory with zero proof is that it's making them stronger than regular SSJ3 (with better Kai control) but still weaker than Mystic. How much wiggle room between those forms is anyone's guess but that's where I would put it.
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Post by godjacob on Nov 18, 2023 19:53:24 GMT
Well they have the best speed feat in all of DBM and I did get the sense they were stronger as I think the author was going for a "fully realized SSj3 in base without power drain risk" so I'd least make them comparable to Ultimate Gohan now but we know so little of the new forms it is kinda vague.
Bra missed half the fight but she was able to follow along in base form the second half so she probably is still stronger than the pair by a bit.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 19, 2023 19:18:20 GMT
I think things are left intentionally vague because DBM is still debating rather they want to keep to Salagir’s original vision of Gohan being the strongest with his potential fully unlocked or if Salagir will listen to the people who want Goku and Vegeta to be stronger now. That is why I think the series hasn’t given us any concrete scale for U18 Goku or U18 Vegeta.
Going by the concept of their new skill though Goku and Vegeta are more energy efficient. Now all the power distributed to their transformations physical changes are freed up for their overall power. I think objectively Goku and Vegeta’s own version of Mystic/Ultimate is stronger than their SS3 forms, which wastes energy to start the transformation and maintain it. I don’t think it is a big increase like a Super Saiyan transformation though.
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Post by godjacob on Nov 20, 2023 2:43:04 GMT
I think things are left intentionally vague because DBM is still debating rather they want to keep to Salagir’s original vision of Gohan being the strongest with his potential fully unlocked or if Salagir will listen to the people who want Goku and Vegeta to be stronger now. That is why I think the series hasn’t given us any concrete scale for U18 Goku or U18 Vegeta. Going by the concept of their new skill though Goku and Vegeta are more energy efficient. Now all the power distributed to their transformations physical changes are freed up for their overall power. I think objectively Goku and Vegeta’s own version of Mystic/Ultimate is stronger than their SS3 forms, which wastes energy to start the transformation and maintain it. I don’t think it is a big increase like a Super Saiyan transformation though. Feel that is a mess they needlessly made for themselves by making it clear Gohan did zero training what so ever since the defeat of Buu but still is intended as the top dog cause of how Salagir tweaked the Mystic power. Fans of Goku & Vegeta probably only feel more miffed that decades of training amounted to still lagging behind a guy focused on his doctorate just cause he sat down and an old guy did a dance around him. I personally would've liked Gohan keeping some activity least in his Great Saiyaman stuff to least keep in fighting shape but that is splitting hairs.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 3, 2023 20:31:23 GMT
I think things are left intentionally vague because DBM is still debating rather they want to keep to Salagir’s original vision of Gohan being the strongest with his potential fully unlocked or if Salagir will listen to the people who want Goku and Vegeta to be stronger now. That is why I think the series hasn’t given us any concrete scale for U18 Goku or U18 Vegeta. Going by the concept of their new skill though Goku and Vegeta are more energy efficient. Now all the power distributed to their transformations physical changes are freed up for their overall power. I think objectively Goku and Vegeta’s own version of Mystic/Ultimate is stronger than their SS3 forms, which wastes energy to start the transformation and maintain it. I don’t think it is a big increase like a Super Saiyan transformation though. Feel that is a mess they needlessly made for themselves by making it clear Gohan did zero training what so ever since the defeat of Buu but still is intended as the top dog cause of how Salagir tweaked the Mystic power. Fans of Goku & Vegeta probably only feel more miffed that decades of training amounted to still lagging behind a guy focused on his doctorate just cause he sat down and an old guy did a dance around him. I personally would've liked Gohan keeping some activity least in his Great Saiyaman stuff to least keep in fighting shape but that is splitting hairs. I would have also preferred Gohan needed to keep up his training just in a case of a new threat showed up. Not to the extent of Goku or Vegeta mind you, but show him far better balanced with spending time with his family, holding down a job, and working out every now and again. Honestly I still prefer this Gohan and how he was handled over canon though.
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