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Post by Argelios on Sept 7, 2017 0:02:36 GMT
So... I decided to update my DBM strength ranking I made long ago. It's way to discuss Power levels in a friendly way without f@cking numbers. I've added a lot of new characters and Tier icons. Hope you like it and we can discuss. RULES:
-It's only an strength ranking, doesn't include things such as resistance, special techniques or magic abilities.
-Each character appears only once at his/hers maximun power. (Except for Son Bra and Vegetto because they varie a lot) -Majinization not included.
-Updated each chapter.
-Speculative characters appear in grey tones.
-Regarding canon: 1.DBM comic dialogue and fights. 2.Salagir statements. 3.Novelization.
FULL HD Version: R.I.P. EXTRA: LEVEL REFERENCESInclude sub-tiers, DBZ characters for comparison and extra DBM transformations. [/font][/font][/spoiler] |
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Post by thejakub on Sept 7, 2017 0:52:10 GMT
Ok, let's go then:
Level 10
Gogeta SSJ3 should also be there. I know that normal fusion is weaker than a Potara one, but Vegeta and Goku probably got much stronger (percentage-wise) than Vegetto alone during all these years.
Level 9
No Gogetta, Buu probably still has some aces up his sleeves, so I would put him above Broly.
Level 8
Gotenks was multiple times implied to be very strong and without regeneration he could be a slight problem for ZBuu, I don't think that Bra stands a chance against Gotenks' "ultimate" version. They might be in the same tier, but i would put Gotenks as stronger and added ">" between them.
Level 7
Hatchiyak hasn't shown anything to put him ahead of all these characters. Cell can be stronger than Gohan only in Majin version. Gotenks normal version should be the strongest in this tier or the weakest in level 8.
Level 6
It's too early to put Mystic Raditz so high, IMO he shouldn't be stronger than SSJ2 - every SSJ3 option would be ridiculous, without this boost he couldn't even reach SSJ1. Ultra armor is problematic - taking the power alone it might be in SSJ2 tier max, but its additional features can put it even in Mystic tier.
Level 5
2nd Cell Junior was implied to be at the full power SSJ2 level, i wouldn't put Kakarotto Oozaru so high. Also, West&North Kaioshin should probably be much closer to East Kaioshin.
Level 4
Dabura would win with Cold using his spit. Pan from U16 should be in this tier. Bojack henchmen - probably too, they always gave the impression of being at inital Cell Jr level.
Level 3
Excluding Pan U16 and Bojack's family Yamcha is probably the strongest one here - as he said: he was a warrior before cyborgization, his base was much stronger than the ones of C16 and C17 (and even it doesn't matter so much, Bulma might have developed him a lot)
Level 2
Piccolo Daimao being so strong makes absolutely no sense, there are no numbers that can support it. I would put him just above Trunks U9. He is just a fusion of 2 very weak Nameks, even reaching 1 mln of PL would require immense training from him.
Level 0
Bra was said to have PL of 500, so she should be just above Babidi. Kat had problems with 10x gravity, so I would put her below average primitive Saiyan, too.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 7, 2017 1:44:02 GMT
First off, Argelios and thejakub , good to see you guys! Come around more often!  Second: holy crap, Argelios, how long did this graphic take you to make? It looks fantastic! I need to take a moment to let you know how I appreciate this picture. The symbols on the left are great--the potara, potara with lightning, choosing Old Kai dancing instead of just Old Kai, all the images you found for the people...either there's a treasure trove of DBM pics I'm not aware of, or you're a very skilled graphic artist! This was beautiful to look at and easy to understand. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a gif that suitably showed my appreciation/impressed-ness with this chart. It's just that good.Third: It is waaaaaay harder making a list than it is to critique one, so great work and thanks for doing it! Now, things I think I have evidence for: -- According to Salagir, in the same form, Cooler is stronger than Frieza. (Reference Thread, " Cold, Cooler, Frieza relative strengths") -- I'd put East Kaioshin lower than 16. He could easily kill Frieza, but so could Trunks, and Trunks was no match for the Future 18, let alone their modern versions. West and North Kai shouldn't be SS2 level, they had to leave fighting Bojack to South Kai. North Kai could kill 4th Cold, but he needed a sword to do it. They should be Android tier at best, with East Kai low Android. -- U16 Pan should be Cell Games tier. She forced Bojack to 2nd form, and if Bojack Unbound happened as it did in the film, then Bojack's 1st form was enough to clean up Super Vegeta, who was quite above 16. -- SS1 Bra is enough for Goku to say "Whoa, she's stronger than us, too?" which implies she's likely (and sadly) stronger than Goku and Vegeta at their best. I also doubt regular Cell could give Gohan or SS1 Bra that big of a problem. So I'd shift Goku, Vegeta, and Cell to the right, with Bra moved to the left. -- Future Trunks should be Cell Games tier. He could "give Cell problems," not beat Cell. SS2 Vegeta was holding back massively; he ended it in one hit once he wanted to. -- U18 Vegeta handily stopped a Golden Oozaru punch at SS2, so it should be low end of the SS2 scale at best. I don't see Kakarot beating Cell's second JR. -- I'd put SS3 Gotenks at U4 Buu's level. Lower, of course, but Buu didn't seem to be holding back that much, and I would be surprised if Bra could beat SS3 Gotenks. -- Future Androids could still clobber initial Future Trunks, who could clobber Frieza. They should be higher than Videl at least. -- Bojack's minions should be Cell Games-tier. Gokua/Kogu was pretty weak but all the others were too strong for Trunks or Vegeta to put down in a 1v1. Things I have no hard evidence for: -- I think U18 Gogeta would be equal to Vegito at every level. He'd only last like 5 seconds before the fusion ran out, though. -- Mystic tier's hazy. We have no firm indicator for how strong LSS U3 Broly was, other than "he could hug Gast and Gast couldn't get away." And it isn't clear how strong Gast or Hatchiyak are compared to Gohan, or even to each other. (Hatchy had a big blast, but once Gast wanted to end the fight, it ended.) -- I don't think it's a guarantee Mystic Raditz will be stronger than U13 Vegeta. -- All the regular U9 humans seem too high. I don't think there's any hard evidence they're individually stronger than Frieza, except for Yamcha of course. Isn't it implied they beat all these tougher opponents through teamwork and strategy? -- I know who The Immortal is, but where was SS2 female Vegeta? 0_0 -- Salagir has, on occasion, called Gohan "the strongest of all" (obviously meaning DBZ, not including DBM) and he's kept Gohan's level as a pretty significant milestone, so I doubt Goku and Vegeta have surpassed him. Thejakub -- Piccolo's response to King Piccolo powering up was basically "holy crap!" Take that how you will, but to me that puts King Piccolo at least Android tier, as Piccolo was after fusing with Kami. Piccolo wouldn't be impressed if King Piccolo was weaker than Frieza. (By the way, I think Bardock vs. King Piccolo would've been a pretty sick fight.) -- Where's the source on U18 Bra being 500? Salagir said that Bra "can definitely destroy the planet" and the number he threw out there is 20,000, but that may not have been serious. (Reference Thread, "U18 Bra can destroy the world") |
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Post by thejakub on Sept 7, 2017 2:18:15 GMT
"-- Future Androids could still clobber initial Future Trunks, who could clobber Frieza. They should be higher than Videl at least."
Yamcha doubted that non-repaired C-17 could withstand 1000x gravity which was not a problem for 4th form Frieza. Non-repaired androids are very weak.
"-- Piccolo's response to King Piccolo powering up was basically "holy crap!" Take that how you will, but to me that puts King Piccolo at least Android tier, as Piccolo was after fusing with Kami. Piccolo wouldn't be impressed if King Piccolo was weaker than Frieza. (By the way, I think Bardock vs. King Piccolo would've been a pretty sick fight.)"
Piccolo was shocked not because of the King's PL, but because of the fact that he is a (re-)fusion.
"-- Where's the source on U18 Bra being 500? Salagir said that Bra "can definitely destroy the planet" and the number he threw out there is 20,000, but that may not have been serious."
Damn, I am pretty sure I read it somewhere, but right now I am checking the novel and i cannot find it. I will search further, I think it went like this (i will be thankful if anyone confirms my recollection of this): "Bra did not train, so her power level was around 500 units which enabled her to deal with any average human picking on her, but that was pretty much it. "
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Post by VoidSlayer on Sept 7, 2017 5:32:05 GMT
It's a pretty solid ranking, and one of the best comparison lists i've seen for DBM in a long time. Well done on putting together such a good comparison!
I think the only things that may need changing/are unsure are as follows:
1. I doubt a helioite is Android tier without any armor at all, surely they'd be down at level 0 as just trained humans?
2. If Raditz gets Mystic i doubt i'd put him so high. And even so there's no evidence at all to suggest he's gotten the powerup or how high it would raise him.
3. In the SS3 tier i'd swap Uub for Buu, and but U13's Vegeta above them all considering how Goku as an early SS3 stated he could of defeated Fat buu easily, and i assume U13's Vegeta is about the same.
4. I'd put Bra as a SS1 dwn to SS3 Teir as its still unsure how powerful she is, and i can't imaine her being above either Goku or Vegeta as an SS1. Obviously as an SS2 she's beyond Mystic and into Vegito tiers, but not as an SS1.
5. Hatchiyak i'd put as an unknown as the only thing we have to go off is his battle against Gast.....Who in turn is also a bit of an unknown.
6. Gotenks i'd also put as an unknown as he matched Buu powered up, but there's no clear idea what he was before he got Buu's upgrade.
Otherwise brilliant work!
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Post by Solus on Sept 7, 2017 8:19:24 GMT
Thumbs up for all the effort you put into this. I really like all the pictures. There are of course some things, I don't agree with, but over all it's a very solid ranking.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 8:21:39 GMT
Thumbs up for all the effort you put into this. I really like all the pictures. There are of course some things, I don't agree with, but over all it's a very solid ranking. I would very much like to echo this. Weirdly I am most impressed with the Ultra Armour pic. |
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Post by thejakub on Sept 7, 2017 10:20:14 GMT
It's a pretty solid ranking, and one of the best comparison lists i've seen for DBM in a long time. Well done on putting together such a good comparison! I think the only things that may need changing/are unsure are as follows: 1. I doubt a helioite is Android tier without any armor at all, surely they'd be down at level 0 as just trained humans? 2. If Raditz gets Mystic i doubt i'd put him so high. And even so there's no evidence at all to suggest he's gotten the powerup or how high it would raise him. 3. In the SS3 tier i'd swap Uub for Buu, and but U13's Vegeta above them all considering how Goku as an early SS3 stated he could of defeated Fat buu easily, and i assume U13's Vegeta is about the same. 4. I'd put Bra as a SS1 dwn to SS3 Teir as its still unsure how powerful she is, and i can't imaine her being above either Goku or Vegeta as an SS1. Obviously as an SS2 she's beyond Mystic and into Vegito tiers, but not as an SS1. 5. Hatchiyak i'd put as an unknown as the only thing we have to go off is his battle against Gast.....Who in turn is also a bit of an unknown. 6. Gotenks i'd also put as an unknown as he matched Buu powered up, but there's no clear idea what he was before he got Buu's upgrade. Otherwise brilliant work! 1. Helioite without armor = helioite that fought Uub and was later a Raichi's minion, so much stronger that a trained human 3. Uub has definitely much higher PL (with Kaioken) than Buu and the fact that he exhausted his power so fast might be connected with 1000x gravity. Goku never said that he could defeat Buu easily, rather than "I probably could", but he had no idea about the extent of Buu's regeneration who can resurrect even from being a gas. 4. As Ashanark quoted, Goku after seeing Bra SSJ was wondering that she might be stronger than them. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Sept 7, 2017 10:46:09 GMT
It's a pretty solid ranking, and one of the best comparison lists i've seen for DBM in a long time. Well done on putting together such a good comparison! I think the only things that may need changing/are unsure are as follows: 1. I doubt a helioite is Android tier without any armor at all, surely they'd be down at level 0 as just trained humans? 2. If Raditz gets Mystic i doubt i'd put him so high. And even so there's no evidence at all to suggest he's gotten the powerup or how high it would raise him. 3. In the SS3 tier i'd swap Uub for Buu, and but U13's Vegeta above them all considering how Goku as an early SS3 stated he could of defeated Fat buu easily, and i assume U13's Vegeta is about the same. 4. I'd put Bra as a SS1 dwn to SS3 Teir as its still unsure how powerful she is, and i can't imaine her being above either Goku or Vegeta as an SS1. Obviously as an SS2 she's beyond Mystic and into Vegito tiers, but not as an SS1. 5. Hatchiyak i'd put as an unknown as the only thing we have to go off is his battle against Gast.....Who in turn is also a bit of an unknown. 6. Gotenks i'd also put as an unknown as he matched Buu powered up, but there's no clear idea what he was before he got Buu's upgrade. Otherwise brilliant work! 1. Helioite without armor = helioite that fought Uub and was later a Raichi's minion, so much stronger that a trained human 3. Uub has definitely much higher PL (with Kaioken) than Buu and the fact that he exhausted his power so fast might be connected with 1000x gravity. Goku never said that he could defeat Buu easily, rather than "I probably could", but he had no idea about the extent of Buu's regeneration who can resurrect even from being a gas. 4. As Ashanark quoted, Goku after seeing Bra SSJ was wondering that she might be stronger than them. 1. He had armor, just not 'Ultra' armor. If a heliote had no armor at all i'd say U18's Bra could beat him. 2. Uub said at the end of his fight that he still couldn't beat Buu. Whether thats because of his regen or that fact he was straining because of 1000x gravity after utilizing the maximum Kaio-ken is unknown but for you to say Uub's much higher is debatable at best. 3. Key word- 'Might' She was raged after having Pan's death mocked and we know that Saiyans push their PL much higher then normal when seriously angry, so i doubt she's higher then them at SS1. Even in the Novelisation Vegito says at the end of Chapter 106 that she's only beyond Mystic at SS2. |
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Post by thejakub on Sept 7, 2017 12:33:21 GMT
1. Helioite without armor = helioite that fought Uub and was later a Raichi's minion, so much stronger that a trained human 3. Uub has definitely much higher PL (with Kaioken) than Buu and the fact that he exhausted his power so fast might be connected with 1000x gravity. Goku never said that he could defeat Buu easily, rather than "I probably could", but he had no idea about the extent of Buu's regeneration who can resurrect even from being a gas. 4. As Ashanark quoted, Goku after seeing Bra SSJ was wondering that she might be stronger than them. 1. He had armor, just not 'Ultra' armor. If a heliote had no armor at all i'd say U18's Bra could beat him. 3. Key word- 'Might' She was raged after having Pan's death mocked and we know that Saiyans push their PL much higher then normal when seriously angry, so i doubt she's higher then them at SS1. Even in the Novelisation Vegito says at the end of Chapter 106 that she's only beyond Mystic at SS2. 1. I know, I just explain the notation used by OP. 3. Gohan still might be much stronger than Goku and Vegeta, so being stronger than him in SSJ2 might imply being stronger than Goku/Vegeta in SSJ1. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Sept 7, 2017 14:33:29 GMT
Pretty cool that this thread came about when less than a week ago I suggested that we make this. Good job Argelios , though there are a few things I do not agree with like Hirudegarn being weaker than Western and Northern Kaioshins. Edit: And Gogeta should totally rival Vegito at the same level. This is probably my strongest critique on the chart along with other minor things. Still it is quite good. |
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Post by mbg on Sept 7, 2017 17:09:27 GMT
First off, Argelios and thejakub , good to see you guys! Come around more often! Second: holy crap, Argelios, how long did this graphic take you to make? It looks fantastic! I need to take a moment to let you know how I appreciate this picture. The symbols on the left are great--the potara, potara with lightning, choosing Old Kai dancing instead of just Old Kai, all the images you found for the people...either there's a treasure trove of DBM pics I'm not aware of, or you're a very skilled graphic artist! This was beautiful to look at and easy to understand. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a gif that suitably showed my appreciation/impressed-ness with this chart. It's just that good.Third: It is waaaaaay harder making a list than it is to critique one, so great work and thanks for doing it! Now, things I think I have evidence for: -- According to Salagir, in the same form, Cooler is stronger than Frieza. (Reference Thread, " Cold, Cooler, Frieza relative strengths") -- I'd put East Kaioshin lower than 16. He could easily kill Frieza, but so could Trunks, and Trunks was no match for the Future 18, let alone their modern versions. West and North Kai shouldn't be SS2 level, they had to leave fighting Bojack to South Kai. North Kai could kill 4th Cold, but he needed a sword to do it. They should be Android tier at best, with East Kai low Android. -- U16 Pan should be Cell Games tier. She forced Bojack to 2nd form, and if Bojack Unbound happened as it did in the film, then Bojack's 1st form was enough to clean up Super Vegeta, who was quite above 16. -- SS1 Bra is enough for Goku to say "Whoa, she's stronger than us, too?" which implies she's likely (and sadly) stronger than Goku and Vegeta at their best. I also doubt regular Cell could give Gohan or SS1 Bra that big of a problem. So I'd shift Goku, Vegeta, and Cell to the right, with Bra moved to the left. -- Future Trunks should be Cell Games tier. He could "give Cell problems," not beat Cell. SS2 Vegeta was holding back massively; he ended it in one hit once he wanted to. -- U18 Vegeta handily stopped a Golden Oozaru punch at SS2, so it should be low end of the SS2 scale at best. I don't see Kakarot beating Cell's second JR. -- I'd put SS3 Gotenks at U4 Buu's level. Lower, of course, but Buu didn't seem to be holding back that much, and I would be surprised if Bra could beat SS3 Gotenks. -- Future Androids could still clobber initial Future Trunks, who could clobber Frieza. They should be higher than Videl at least. -- Bojack's minions should be Cell Games-tier. Gokua/Kogu was pretty weak but all the others were too strong for Trunks or Vegeta to put down in a 1v1. Things I have no hard evidence for: -- I think U18 Gogeta would be equal to Vegito at every level. He'd only last like 5 seconds before the fusion ran out, though. -- Mystic tier's hazy. We have no firm indicator for how strong LSS U3 Broly was, other than "he could hug Gast and Gast couldn't get away." And it isn't clear how strong Gast or Hatchiyak are compared to Gohan, or even to each other. (Hatchy had a big blast, but once Gast wanted to end the fight, it ended.) -- I don't think it's a guarantee Mystic Raditz will be stronger than U13 Vegeta. -- All the regular U9 humans seem too high. I don't think there's any hard evidence they're individually stronger than Frieza, except for Yamcha of course. Isn't it implied they beat all these tougher opponents through teamwork and strategy? -- I know who The Immortal is, but where was SS2 female Vegeta? 0_0 -- Salagir has, on occasion, called Gohan "the strongest of all" (obviously meaning DBZ, not including DBM) and he's kept Gohan's level as a pretty significant milestone, so I doubt Goku and Vegeta have surpassed him. Thejakub -- Piccolo's response to King Piccolo powering up was basically "holy crap!" Take that how you will, but to me that puts King Piccolo at least Android tier, as Piccolo was after fusing with Kami. Piccolo wouldn't be impressed if King Piccolo was weaker than Frieza. (By the way, I think Bardock vs. King Piccolo would've been a pretty sick fight.) -- Where's the source on U18 Bra being 500? Salagir said that Bra "can definitely destroy the planet" and the number he threw out there is 20,000, but that may not have been serious. (Reference Thread, "U18 Bra can destroy the world") For the record, Nail indicated that the Nameless Namekian could have taken Freeza. How strong that makes him is a pretty broad brush, including whether that means Form 1 Freeza or 100% Freeza and even how much stronger he was. Even then, though, he didn't have anyone to fight or train against, so he wouldn't be much stronger. My personal canon, which I think I've mentioned before, is that "completing" a Namekian from two halves is a bigger boost than adding another one of the same power would be. Think of the Nameless Namekian as like an expensive computer, and dividing him as taking all the parts from it and trying to build two new ones from the parts. Obviously, you're going to get two really crap computers, at best, no matter how good they were before. Fusing Nail is like taking the parts from a mid-range computer and adding them; it's definitely an upgrade, but not as much as completing the original would be. But even with that dorky headcanon justification, I still really don't see him as being that strong. The fusion of the entire Namekian race wasn't absurdly far above the Freeza family (most people I've seen put him at Semi-Perfect Cell, which sounds about right), so making one random superwarrior on their level seems like a major stretch. I'd say he's Form 3 Freeza, tops... though he could really be anywhere. |
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Post by Argelios on Sept 7, 2017 18:42:46 GMT
Ashanark VoidSlayer Solus @invaderjim Xeno Black Thanks guys, it took me hours yeah, but I'm happy with the result. Now you say it, I forgot to clarify I only colored a few of the pictures there. I made a long search over colored pages, deviantart, chapter covers and so then I made renders of what I needed. I just can't give credits to everyone, the list is huge. Now, quote everyone would be a madness, so I will try to answer all the comments in the Ranking order. -Gogeta SSJ3 : It's true that they trained 20 years, but we have to remember that Potala fusion is just OP as f@ck. In the Buu saga Gogeta would've been just a little stronger than Gotenks. Gotenks SS3 > Super Buu ... while Vegetto SSJ >>>> Buu GOHAN. Anyway it would be possible. -Zen Buu : Fair point , you are right, he should be stronger than Broly. -Ultimate Gotenks: Fair point, again, he should be stronger than SSJ2 Bra. - Hatchiyack : Yes, we didn't see enough of him, but his attack was OP and he didn't seem to get tired. Also he has the power of hundreds of ghosts. Hope we see more of him in the future. -Ghost Broly: Same ↑ -Goku, Vegeta, Cell and Bra: Now, this is interesing, in the novel Vegeta is sure he can beat Gohan, he trained 10 years with that in mind, I believe that too, maybe with a new KI control (?) he could reach at least the same level. Goku always goes the same. In the novel Cell wanted to fight Gohan, Bra proposed him a fight away from the arena, he refused bacause "she was weak" , we have to remember Cell already saw her in SSJ. And for Bra, in the novel is clarified that the comment of Goku about Bra being stronger than them, was only on the Super Saiyan level. -Gotenks: I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere he is at the same level than SSJ Bra. - Mystic Raditz: I think a strong SSJ3 is the limit of the Saiyan, we have to remember he is Goku's brother. But maybe because of the Babidi plot he will only achieve a weak SSJ3 because of time. We will see. -Kakarotto Ozaru: Salagir based the Golden ozaru over an old comic he draw, in that comic the Power of a Golden Ozaru was superior than a SSJ2. But anyway Vegeta beat him because he is at the limit of power of a SSJ2 and a better fighter. -West, North Kaioshins: We don't have more evidence than North Kai slicing Cold like jam. Hope we see them in action. -Mirai Trunks: "Serious problems to Cell" I think means he was stronger, and to be stronger than Perfect Cell you need at least a weak SSJ2. Anyway I will change his place with Hildegarn's. -Female Vegeta: Gag character, the one against Syd. I will take it out next update. -Pan SSJ and Bojack army: FAIR POINT , I went full retarded here, they are at Cell games tier. -Yamcha: Fair point, he should be at least at A16's level.
-Coola over Frieza: I thought Cooler was weaker than Frieza, thats why he needed an extra transformation, anyway it's good to know I will change their places.
-King Piccolo: Nameless namekian was enough to defeat Frieza. We also have to remember Piccolo went from 2nd form Frieza lvl to Android lvl after fusing with Kami. But King Piccolo didn't fuse with Nail, so I think he is at a middle point.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Sept 7, 2017 18:51:47 GMT
Gogeta: I would argue that it is likely that even in Buu saga, Gogeta would be far, far, far stronger than Gotenks, even including Gotenks' arbitrary SSJ3.
Now, I'm not so sure how to factor this, but Goten and Trunks were medium SSJ tier in origin as separate individuals, regardless if Gotenks can reach SSJ3. At Gogeta, we are talking about a fusion between a SSJ3 and a mid/high SSJ2 individual. It would just be a complete lack of merit and devaluation to put Gogeta as merely higher than Gotenks. Base Vegeta and Base Goku are likely far stronger than base Goten/Trunks as well.
Now, let's take into account the supposed "hidden Vegeta" form that has been hinted so much, that is supposedly a better alternative to SSJ3. If Vegeta has it, it means an hypothetical DBM Gogeta would have it too.
This should solidly put him in the same tier as SSJ3 Vegetoo or even above. SSJ3 Gotenks (with steroids) is somewhere inbetween SSJ1 Vegetto and SSJ2 Vegetto (considering Goku's comment on his fight), probably a bit closer to the later.
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Post by Gogeta on Sept 7, 2017 19:07:21 GMT
Would also place SSJ3 Vegeta at least on Uub's level (defo above Fat Buu and South Kai).
"'This Cell Junior is stronger than the average Super Saiyan 2,' Vegetto said, over in Universe 16’s area"
"'Their power levels are pretty evenly matched,' added the Namek beside him, 'that is, were Vegeta still in fighting shape.'"
Now this depends on what you view as an average Super Saiyan 2 but to me its unfolds like this
Beyond Strong Super Saiyan 2: SSJ2 DBM Vegeta, SSJ2 DBM Goku
Strong Super Saiyan 2: SSJ2 Buu Saga Goku, SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, Cell Jr., SSJ2 Prince Vegeta (Fully Fit)
Average Super Saiyan 2: Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan
Weak Super Saiyan 2: Buu Saga SSJ2 Gohan
Seems to me that Vegeta would be comparable to Buu Saga Vegeta and Goku and so his SSJ3 should be comparable to SSJ3 Goku who is above Fat Buu and South Kai in terms of power (inexperience with the form aside). I'd honestly even say he's stronger than Uub's Max Kaioken which couldn't put Fat Buu down for good while SSJ3 Goku was hyped to be able to do so.
Agree with the rationale on Gogeta said by others. He's comparable to Vegito in every equivalent transformation IMO.
Upgraded Gotenks for me would be higher than Vegito SSJ1 (Buu was outputing energy that hadn't been felt since Vegito/Broly and Gotenks was still keeping up something that Bra even in her strongest wouldn't be able to do) and un-upgraded Gotenks SSJ3 should still be stronger than Bra SSJ2 IMO (basically upgraded Gotenks is stronger than Bra in every equivalent transformation while un-upgraded Gotenks isn't but is stronger than her if he's in a higher transformed state)
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Post by mbg on Sept 7, 2017 19:28:45 GMT
Ashanark VoidSlayer Solus @invaderjim Xeno Black
-King Piccolo: Nameless namekian was enough to defeat Frieza. We also have to remember Piccolo went from 2nd form Frieza lvl to Android lvl after fusing with Kami. But King Piccolo didn't fuse with Nail, so I think he is at a middle point. Piccolo was shown to have gotten a fair bit better in the training period, though; enough to manhandle Gero without much trouble, which implies he was at least competitive with his SS1 compatriots. Nail's observation is also tricky to say, considering he had no reason to know about Freeza's full power. And Guru indicates that the Nameless Namekian was weaker than a Super Saiyan, as well. Like, it's hard to speculate on a character we never even saw, but I'd say at the top of "below Super Saiyan" would be a good spot for him. Also, I'd say add Freeza's fourth form, since Freeza makes for a great benchmark in these kind of goofy things (also remember he should be stronger than the broken Androids). |
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 7, 2017 20:54:45 GMT
Until we get a good look at U3 Piccolo's power I would put him below Super Saiyan tier. Nail said if Piccolo had come back complete he could beat Freeza, but at the time Nail had fought Freeza in his first form and had no knowledge of the transformations. He probably had a good idea on how strong Freeza's first form was and made his assessment on that. To my knowledge there hasn't been anything to suggest U3 Piccolo trained as hard as U18 Piccolo or fought as many strong opponents as U18 to justify him training as hard. He doesn't have Nail inside of him either. I would feel more comfortable putting U3 Piccolo above Freeza's second form, but below third form.
I would put U3 Broly in SS3 tier. He wasn't around long enough to test his power. I doubt he could have gained enough power to pass SS3 tier level, considering Raichi just summoned him for a short amount of time and he needs time to build up his power. I would argue the match it would be more fair to put Gast in SS3 tier list along with U3 Broly rather than it being the other way around.
Gogeta I would put in master tier the same as Vegetto. I really don't think potara is actually stronger than fusion dance as mos fans interpret, let alone that fusion dance is so much weaker that its a tier below earrings. I still think when Old Kai said it was stronger than the dance is really meant to be better. After he says that he explains how the potara earrings work, which is easier and has less weaknesses the dance does, which to me is what he was referring to when he said it was stronger (there might be some translations that say superior or better). I would say even if Vegetto is stronger that it is not by as much that he deserves to be on a higher tier. Goku and Vegeta are a lot stronger than Goten and Trunks. It stands to reason their fusion would be a lot stronger than Gotenks the same as Vegetto was. Vegetto and Gogeta SS3 should be master tier.
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Post by thejakub on Sept 7, 2017 21:56:48 GMT
Until we get a good look at U3 Piccolo's power I would put him below Super Saiyan tier. Nail said if Piccolo had come back complete he could beat Freeza, but at the time Nail had fought Freeza in his first form and had no knowledge of the transformations. He probably had a good idea on how strong Freeza's first form was and made his assessment on that. To my knowledge there hasn't been anything to suggest U3 Piccolo trained as hard as U18 Piccolo or fought as many strong opponents as U18 to justify him training as hard. He doesn't have Nail inside of him either. I would feel more comfortable putting U3 Piccolo above Freeza's second form, but below third form. Also, Piccolo that Nail met could be even hundred time stronger than original King Piccolo. If I remember correctly original son of Katas was said (by Guru) to be stronger than Saiyans, not Frieza. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Sept 7, 2017 22:42:57 GMT
Ashanark VoidSlayer Solus @invaderjim Xeno Black Thanks guys, it took me hours yeah, but I'm happy with the result. Now you say it, I forgot to clarify I only colored a few of the pictures there. I made a long search over colored pages, deviantart, chapter covers and so then I made renders of what I needed. I just can't give credits to everyone, the list is huge. Now, quote everyone would be a madness, so I will try to answer all the comments in the Ranking order. -Gogeta SSJ3 : It's true that they trained 20 years, but we have to remember that Potala fusion is just OP as f@ck. In the Buu saga Gogeta would've been just a little stronger than Gotenks. Gotenks SS3 > Super Buu ... while Vegetto SSJ >>>> Buu GOHAN. Anyway it would be possible. -Zen Buu : Fair point , you are right, he should be stronger than Broly. -Ultimate Gotenks: Fair point, again, he should be stronger than SSJ2 Bra. - Hatchiyack : Yes, we didn't see enough of him, but his attack was OP and he didn't seem to get tired. Also he has the power of hundreds of ghosts. Hope we see more of him in the future. -Ghost Broly: Same ↑ -Goku, Vegeta, Cell and Bra: Now, this is interesing, in the novel Vegeta is sure he can beat Gohan, he trained 10 years with that in mind, I believe that too, maybe with a new KI control (?) he could reach at least the same level. Goku always goes the same. In the novel Cell wanted to fight Gohan, Bra proposed him a fight away from the arena, he refused bacause "she was weak" , we have to remember Cell already saw her in SSJ. And for Bra, in the novel is clarified that the comment of Goku about Bra being stronger than them, was only on the Super Saiyan level. -Gotenks: I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere he is at the same level than SSJ Bra. - Mystic Raditz: I think a strong SSJ3 is the limit of the Saiyan, we have to remember he is Goku's brother. But maybe because of the Babidi plot he will only achieve a weak SSJ3 because of time. We will see. -Kakarotto Ozaru: Salagir based the Golden ozaru over an old comic he draw, in that comic the Power of a Golden Ozaru was superior than a SSJ2. But anyway Vegeta beat him because he is at the limit of power of a SSJ2 and a better fighter. -West, North Kaioshins: We don't have more evidence than North Kai slicing Cold like jam. Hope we see them in action. -Mirai Trunks: "Serious problems to Cell" I think means he was stronger, and to be stronger than Perfect Cell you need at least a weak SSJ2. Anyway I will change his place with Hildegarn's. -Female Vegeta: Gag character, the one against Syd. I will take it out next update. -Pan SSJ and Bojack army: FAIR POINT , I went full retarded here, they are at Cell games tier. -Yamcha: Fair point, he should be at least at A16's level.
-Coola over Frieza: I thought Cooler was weaker than Frieza, thats why he needed an extra transformation, anyway it's good to know I will change their places.
-King Piccolo: Nameless namekian was enough to defeat Frieza. We also have to remember Piccolo went from 2nd form Frieza lvl to Android lvl after fusing with Kami. But King Piccolo didn't fuse with Nail, so I think he is at a middle point. Before i add anything else- I legitimately am impressed with how you've gone about this- The ease of comparison, even of people in the same tiers is clear and well defined. Particularly the effort you've gone to find these images and sort them is a real credit to you. Well done! I'd only put South and Grand Kai at the bottom of the SS3 tier, with SS3 Vegeta, Uub and Buu ahead of them. A potential Mystic Raditz is oonly speculation at this point, and why he'd have to be SS3 tier to match his Vegeta i don't know if he's potential woudl put him higher then a non injured Vegeta. Anyway as Mystic shouldn't he be in the 'Mystic' tier haha? I still think Bra SS1 is too high, although putting her in the lower end of the Mystic Tier i do agree with as even if her SS1 puts her in there, it'd only be just. SS Oozaru Kakarot did have to be in the SS2 tier to avoid a complete curbstomp by U18's Vegeta, but i doubt he would have been beyond the 2nd Cell Jr. Shouldn't Trunks be in the Cell games tier? He was extremely strong but couldn't of beaten Cell 1 on 1, which an early SS2 Gohan could have done. Gogeta, while technically being a 'weaker' fusion then Vegito, should still be in the same tier as him at each equivalent transformation. I think some of these were already covered but i'm at work so i don't have time to look at every argument. Anyway again, well done. I and many pothers look forward to your updated list. |
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Post by Argelios on Sept 8, 2017 0:32:29 GMT
Conqueror GengWhile I don't think even after 20 years of training Gogeta would be at the same level at each transformation, you are right about the "new" Vegeta form, and also Goten and Trunks could teach Goku and Vegeta the new fusion technique. That way they can surely be at Vegetto SSJ3 level, I will put Gogeta there. Steroids Gotenks will be at the top of Vegetto SSJ1 tier in the new update. GogetaYou are right about Cell jr and Vegeta SSJ3, I will fix it, anyway I still think Uub is a little stronger than Vegeta. Uub couldn't beat Buu with normal Kaioken, but remember that with his Maximun Kaioken he disintegrated Fat Buu and that is hard even if you are stronger. I don't agree at all about normal Gotenks being so strong, remember in DBZ he was weaker than Mystic Gohan, in DBM he should be stronger... (Mystic Gohan now?) But no way near Bra SSJ2 (Who is waaay stronger than Mystic Gohan). And also, remember Goku said that Gotenks was stronger than he and Vegeta, but that was only after he got the upgrade from Buu... that could mean Goku thinks he is capable of beating normal Gotenks. mbgEverybody thinks Piccolo is weaker, I will move him to the botton of Basic SSJ tier. I won't add Frieza 4th form, because he is already there in 5th form... but you are right he would be above the broken androids. Son PanI don't think Gast is at SSJ3 level, I mean he survived a full-power attack from Vegeta SSJ3 and f@cked up Hatchiyack in a single blow, but for Broly it could be, I will move him to the botton of Mystic Tier, hope we get more information in the future. VoidSlayerThank you! Yes, Vegeta should be next to Uub, but I don't think South Kaio is that weak, he was a good opponent for Kid Buu. Haha Raditz sucks even in mystic  I just think his potential is about a SSJ3 (He is Goku's brother) ... but the ritual won't be finished because the Babidi plot, so he would be weaker. We will see. Yes, Bra is a beast in raw power, she is stated to be a little weaker than Gohan in the novel, but they are similar. Golden Ozaru is just hard to measure. But I agree 2nd Cell jr should be at the top of SSJ2 tier. I will move the Majin Cell jrs to the next tier. The muscled Saiyan in DBM is very strong, they said "would have given serious problems to Perfect Cell"... and for me serious problems means being stronger, and to be stronger than perfect cell you need at least a weak SSJ2.
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I just think his potential is about a SSJ3 (He is Goku's brother) ... but the ritual won't be finished because the Babidi plot, so he would be weaker. We will see.