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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 30, 2017 2:55:36 GMT
The Retro Kakarotto VoidSlayerOkay so you two bringing this topic up in the Meme Thread inspired me to make a separate thread for the discussion. Regarding the GoDs and Zen-Oh of course, Hakai I think would work on any entity that isn't immune to it and I think Erase works on any entity regardless of immunity with the possible exception to that being Zen-Oh himself. So as immunities go, I think that GoDs, Angels, and Zen-Oh's race* have. I think as it goes the only way to resist Hakai is if it was only a partial one done by someone that isn't a GoD who was given a small amount of Destruction Energy. Yes I believe the Destruction Energy itself is the Hakai, but a small amount of it isn't enough to Hakai someone immediately and without them being able to resist it. So if someone uses a small amount of Destruction Energy then a high power level entity could resist the Hakai, but if a GoD is using Hakai then there is absolutely no way to resist it unless you have the immunity to it that only the GoDs, Angels, & Zen-Oh's race* have. Erase I don't think anyone is immune to it other than possibly Zen-Oh himself unless Zen-Oh can grant others immunity to it for whatever duration he decides. *I believe Zen-Ohs' guards are members of his race. That or they are actually Zen-Oh too, but Zen-Oh uses a child clone to trick others into thinking he is weak and possibly prone to being attacked if they could manage to eliminate or separate him from his guards and the Grand Priest. Though which one of this is true is really up for another discussion.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Sept 30, 2017 3:09:49 GMT
My theory is- No one would be 'immune' to being Destroyed. Only if you were immensely stronger then the person performing the 'Hakai' would it have no effect (In my opinion)
The thing is though- the only beings we've seen 'Destruction' being used on are people much weaker than the being using it- (Beerus using it on the Ghost in the Gag manga episode, Beerus using it again on Zamasu before Goku and Vegeta went and fought him in the future, and Sidra using it against the entire city)
In saying that i doubt if say Beerus could use it against another Destroyer God, as they have the same type of energy so i think it unlikely (Although possible) that it would have any effect. Otherwise any rivalry between them would be ended quickly as it would all depend on who would use the technique the quickest.
Whis does say though that Beerus can destroy 'anything' but i assume that refers to anything in his universe, not any other higher beings.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 30, 2017 6:03:16 GMT
My theory is- No one would be 'immune' to being Destroyed. Only if you were immensely stronger then the person performing the 'Hakai' would it have no effect (In my opinion) The thing is though- the only beings we've seen 'Destruction' being used on are people much weaker than the being using it- (Beerus using it on the Ghost in the Gag manga episode, Beerus using it again on Zamasu before Goku and Vegeta went and fought him in the future, and Sidra using it against the entire city) In saying that i doubt if say Beerus could use it against another Destroyer God, as they have the same type of energy so i think it unlikely (Although possible) that it would have any effect. Otherwise any rivalry between them would be ended quickly as it would all depend on who would use the technique the quickest. Whis does say though that Beerus can destroy 'anything' but i assume that refers to anything in his universe, not any other higher beings. Okay you're kinda contradicting yourself here. You claim nobody would be immune, but at the same time you say that higher beings are. Basically what I said is that higher level entities are immune to Hakai, whereas nobody except possibly Zen-Oh is immune to Erase (the technique Zen-Oh uses, which is not actually Hakai). I also went further to say that Destruction Energy I believe is Hakai when used offensively on an opponent, but can be resisted if there isn't enough Destruction Energy being used and the target is strong enough to resist it like how Frieza did and Goku sorta almost did (not quite sure if he would've succeeded since Beerus absorbed the Destruction Energy before Goku could either stop it or be Hakai'd by it).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2017 6:52:24 GMT
Kor Saiyajinkami I personally feel that Hakai and Erase are the same in that they completely obliterate anything (no matter how large or small). I feel that higher beings such as Angels and Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai/Erase whereas mortals, Kais and Gods of Destruction are not since they are considered lower beings. Like you said, it can be resisted by strong enough individuals but I feel the Hakai/Erase would win out and completely obliterate the victim. since it is absolute.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Sept 30, 2017 7:10:28 GMT
My theory is- No one would be 'immune' to being Destroyed. Only if you were immensely stronger then the person performing the 'Hakai' would it have no effect (In my opinion) The thing is though- the only beings we've seen 'Destruction' being used on are people much weaker than the being using it- (Beerus using it on the Ghost in the Gag manga episode, Beerus using it again on Zamasu before Goku and Vegeta went and fought him in the future, and Sidra using it against the entire city) In saying that i doubt if say Beerus could use it against another Destroyer God, as they have the same type of energy so i think it unlikely (Although possible) that it would have any effect. Otherwise any rivalry between them would be ended quickly as it would all depend on who would use the technique the quickest. Whis does say though that Beerus can destroy 'anything' but i assume that refers to anything in his universe, not any other higher beings. Okay you're kinda contradicting yourself here. You claim nobody would be immune, but at the same time you say that higher beings are. Basically what I said is that higher level entities are immune to Hakai, whereas nobody except possibly Zen-Oh is immune to Erase (the technique Zen-Oh uses, which is not actually Hakai). I also went further to say that Destruction Energy I believe is Hakai when used offensively on an opponent, but can be resisted if there isn't enough Destruction Energy being used and the target is strong enough to resist it like how Frieza did and Goku sorta almost did (not quite sure if he would've succeeded since Beerus absorbed the Destruction Energy before Goku could either stop it or be Hakai'd by it). Actually i'm not, you just selectively quoted me. I said only if you were immensely stronger would it probably not work (Like Beerus trying to Hakai Zeno, or Grand Priest) So anyone lower then Beerus could not resist it, or even if they were somehow stronger (Like the mysterious mortal who beat him in an arm wrestle) being of a non-Godly origin i'd say Hakai would still work as normal Erase on the other hand is Zeno's ultimate technique, and as there is no one more powerful than him logically it would work on anyone of lower power (Read: Anyone). Also we've already seen Zeno erase 2 universes as well as their component Gods of Destruction. Therefore 'Erase' must be even more powerful than 'Hakai; could ever be.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 30, 2017 7:51:19 GMT
Kor Saiyajinkami I personally feel that Hakai and Erase are the same in that they completely obliterate anything (no matter how large or small). I feel that higher beings such as Angels and Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai/Erase whereas mortals, Kais and Gods of Destruction are not since they are considered lower beings. Like you said, it can be resisted by strong enough individuals but I feel the Hakai/Erase would win out and completely obliterate the victim. since it is absolute. I disagree partially. I think Hakai only works on mortals and lower deities like regular Kais (King Kai, West Kai, South Kai, East Kai, & Grand Kai). Higher level deities like Supreme Kais, GoDs, Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, & Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai. Why I think Supreme Kais are immune is because if they weren't Beerus could've Hakai'd Old Kai instead of sealing him in the Z Sword. Now you may argue that he did it to avoid dying himself, but at that point in history there should've been 5 Supreme Kais still, so killing/erasing one of them wouldn't be enough to kill Beerus too. I don't think he would've been solely satisfied with killing Old Kai, because to a Kaioshin death doesn't really even matter since they already live in Other World, so he sealed him away to punish him because killing wouldn't be satisfactory and Hakai wouldn't work. GoDs are immune for obvious reasons because other wise disputes between them wouldn't need to require fighting and almost destroying the whole Universe or holding contests of various kinds. As for Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, and Zen-Oh, they are even higher than the Supreme Kais and GoDs, so that just makes sense that they'd be immune. Now when it comes to resisting Hakai, if it's done with Destruction Energy lent to a mortal or non-GoD deity, I know it can be resisted and stopped because Frieza stopped and then absorbed it to use against Goku, who struggled to resist and either would've succumb or barely overcome it if Beerus hadn't absorbed it. As for a full-powered Hakai, I don't think any mortal or lower level deity can resist it or overcome it. Now onto Erase, I think the only ones that could potentially be immune are Zen-Oh and maybe just maybe his attendants as well as they seem like they may be adults from whatever race Zen-Oh comes from if there indeed are others of his species in existence. Now I imagine Zen-Oh being the Omni-King could very well just turn any immunity he has to his own Erase technique off if he felt like committing suicide.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 30, 2017 8:01:01 GMT
Okay you're kinda contradicting yourself here. You claim nobody would be immune, but at the same time you say that higher beings are. Basically what I said is that higher level entities are immune to Hakai, whereas nobody except possibly Zen-Oh is immune to Erase (the technique Zen-Oh uses, which is not actually Hakai). I also went further to say that Destruction Energy I believe is Hakai when used offensively on an opponent, but can be resisted if there isn't enough Destruction Energy being used and the target is strong enough to resist it like how Frieza did and Goku sorta almost did (not quite sure if he would've succeeded since Beerus absorbed the Destruction Energy before Goku could either stop it or be Hakai'd by it). Actually i'm not, you just selectively quoted me. I said only if you were immensely stronger would it probably not work (Like Beerus trying to Hakai Zeno, or Grand Priest) So anyone lower then Beerus could not resist it, or even if they were somehow stronger (Like the mysterious mortal who beat him in an arm wrestle) being of a non-Godly origin i'd say Hakai would still work as normal Erase on the other hand is Zeno's ultimate technique, and as there is no one more powerful than him logically it would work on anyone of lower power (Read: Anyone). Also we've already seen Zeno erase 2 universes as well as their component Gods of Destruction. Therefore 'Erase' must be even more powerful than 'Hakai; could ever be. Actually even in the part that I didn't bold, you said definitely that you think in your opinion it wouldn't work on someone immensely stronger than the user of Hakai. And of course Erase is immensely more powerful than Hakai. For one it's instantaneous whereas Hakai can at least take a few seconds like it did with Zamasu and the city that Sidra Hakai'd. Though Erase does seem to be able to have a delayed effect on part(s) of it's target as with how the pendant was Erased only after Gohan saw the picture inside and how Goku and friends along with the Time Machine and Mirai Zen-Oh weren't immediately erased when Mirai Zen-Oh destroyed the Multiverse of his own timeline. Now this does bring up an interesting question, does Erase only destroy existence or can it eradicate time too? What do you think about that?
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 1, 2017 7:10:28 GMT
Basically i think no one of a lower power level/Non-God would be immune to Hakai. It seems to bypass durability and not just blow them to smithereens (Like Gohans Kamehameha on Super Perfect Cell), or even completely obliterates them (Like Gokus Spirit Bomb to Majin Buu). It basically erases them from all time and existence, down to their very spirit and soul. Case in point- When Beerus Hakaied the ghost. That alone proves that these God techniques are so much more than 'merely' a destructive blast since an energy wave, no matter how powerfu, can't erase a bad guys spirit or soul. Hakai, and Erase can.
In Erases case it's basically Hakai but on a universal scale. Literally everything is erased as though it never existed. So therefore since Zeno is 'Erasing' the universe, not merely destroying it, that would include all timelines, matter, energy, llife and the afterlife. Even the dead in their universes afterworld would be erased i would think.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 1, 2017 7:38:10 GMT
Basically i think no one of a lower power level/Non-God would be immune to Hakai. It seems to bypass durability and not just blow them to smithereens (Like Gohans Kamehameha on Super Perfect Cell), or even completely obliterates them (Like Gokus Spirit Bomb to Majin Buu). It basically erases them from all time and existence, down to their very spirit and soul. Case in point- When Beerus Hakaied the ghost. That alone proves that these God techniques are so much more than 'merely' a destructive blast since an energy wave, no matter how powerfu, can't erase a bad guys spirit or soul. Hakai, and Erase can. In Erases case it's basically Hakai but on a universal scale. Literally everything is erased as though it never existed. So therefore since Zeno is 'Erasing' the universe, not merely destroying it, that would include all timelines, matter, energy, llife and the afterlife. Even the dead in their universes afterworld would be erased i would think. I disagree about timelines otherwise when Mirai Zen-Oh Erased the Mirai timeline's Multiverse, it should've destroyed the main one too, Cell's timeline, every other timeline, and that should've therefore been the very last episode of Dragon Ball Super with the words "THE END" in big red letters and surrounded by Mirai Zen-Oh wearing "Deal With It" Sunglasses and double flipping off the entire fanbase. Something similar to this:
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 1, 2017 7:45:44 GMT
Basically i think no one of a lower power level/Non-God would be immune to Hakai. It seems to bypass durability and not just blow them to smithereens (Like Gohans Kamehameha on Super Perfect Cell), or even completely obliterates them (Like Gokus Spirit Bomb to Majin Buu). It basically erases them from all time and existence, down to their very spirit and soul. Case in point- When Beerus Hakaied the ghost. That alone proves that these God techniques are so much more than 'merely' a destructive blast since an energy wave, no matter how powerfu, can't erase a bad guys spirit or soul. Hakai, and Erase can. In Erases case it's basically Hakai but on a universal scale. Literally everything is erased as though it never existed. So therefore since Zeno is 'Erasing' the universe, not merely destroying it, that would include all timelines, matter, energy, llife and the afterlife. Even the dead in their universes afterworld would be erased i would think. I disagree about timelines otherwise when Mirai Zen-Oh Erased the Mirai timeline's Multiverse, it should've destroyed the main one too and that should've therefore been the very last episode of Dragon Ball Super with the words "THE END" in big red letters and surrounded by Mirai Zen-Oh wearing "Deal With It" Sunglasses and double flipping off the entire fanbase. He didn't erase the timeline though- Only Zamasu. Future Trunks went back to the future at the end of the arc. So therefore in this case Zeno was selective in what he erased. Although i put that down to Goku asking him for a favor.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 1, 2017 7:54:22 GMT
I disagree about timelines otherwise when Mirai Zen-Oh Erased the Mirai timeline's Multiverse, it should've destroyed the main one too and that should've therefore been the very last episode of Dragon Ball Super with the words "THE END" in big red letters and surrounded by Mirai Zen-Oh wearing "Deal With It" Sunglasses and double flipping off the entire fanbase. He didn't erase the timeline though- Only Zamasu. Future Trunks went back to the future at the end of the arc. So therefore in this case Zeno was selective in what he erased. Although i put that down to Goku asking him for a favor. He erased the entire, not just Zamasu, because the only way to erase Infinite Zamasu who had fused with the Multiverse was to destroy the entire Multiverse of that timeline. As for Future Trunks going back, he went to a new timeline created by Whis intervening and telling Mirai Beerus to Hakai Goku Black to stop him from even attempting to enact the Zero Mortals Plan. Anyways if Zamasu erased U10's entire timeline along with it that would cause a huge paradox since Goku would've been erased prior to reminding Zen-Oh about the ToP (at that time still unnamed). To be honest while Zen-Oh protentially could erase entire timelines (past, present, & future) from having ever existed, I doubt he would do it unless he really wanted to fuck shit up by potentially causing massive paradoxes.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on Oct 1, 2017 16:19:29 GMT
Everyone's favorite overhyped move. Hakai is overrated because apparently it's this ONE PAWCH technique when in reality it's been used the same way most attacks work in Dragon Ball. The strongest prevailing over the weaker of the two. Is it cool when destroyers erase people? Most definitely, but it's no more different than Dragon fist, Final Flash, Special Beam cannon or any other mega-powerful attack stronger than the user (see DBS manga for reference).
People are just over-complicating techniques when it's just an easy method of destroyer gods erasing something. Hell, Frieza even manipulated destructive energy thanks to his deus ex machima power-boosts. Best not to think of previous continuity because the writers sure as hell don't.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 1, 2017 18:23:20 GMT
Beerus the WondercatFilling in plot holes with fan explanations and coming up with theories/speculations is what we must do tho as fans. It gives us things to to do to occupy our time and ways to make DB messy crappy due to it's countless plot holes. Filling the holes up ourselves with plausible explanations until Toriyama provides an official explanation just makes DB that much more enjoyable. Also it provides excellent online interaction among fans all over the world. Do you disagree? Hakai and Erase seem to actually go beyond that being able to kill ghosts and even immortals as I imagine Mirai Beerus did that to Goku Black and Mirai Zamasu after Whis warned him about the Zero Mortals plan. Hakai, the GoD's sealing technique, or straight up murdering Mirai Zamasu before he gained immortality are the only 3 ways I could imagine Mirai Beerus did to stop the Zero Mortals Plan so Whis would have an alternate future to drop Mirai Kai and Mirai Trunks in tho it might've been easier to drop them in Cell's timeline since Trunks was dead there already.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 1, 2017 23:15:56 GMT
Alright i checked and yep- Zeno erased the entire 'future' universe, they then did some time witchery to get Trunks and Mai into another future universe before all that Zamasu Business.
Therefore i think why Future Zeno's Erase still destroyed the entire universe including time and everything in it except for the other Trunks and Mai, as well as the main universe 7 as that no other universe has an 'alternate' like universe 7 did. So now we're at the tournament and both Zenos erase the universe and everything in it- EVERYTHING is erased because they have no alternate futures.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 1, 2017 23:37:55 GMT
Alright i checked and yep- Zeno erased the entire 'future' universe, they then did some time witchery to get Trunks and Mai into another future universe before all that Zamasu Business. Therefore i think why Future Zeno's Erase still destroyed the entire universe including time and everything in it except for the other Trunks and Mai, as well as the main universe 7 as that no other universe has an 'alternate' like universe 7 did. So now we're at the tournament and both Zenos erase the universe and everything in it- EVERYTHING is erased because they have no alternate futures. Actually that's not quite right. There was no witchery really. Zen-Oh destroyed that entire timeline's Multiverse (or Universe; I think each one should be not called it's own Universe, but it's own sub-Universe for simplicity and Multiverse theory to be more easily applied and for to replace timeline with alternate Universe [ex: SubUniverse 7 aka SU7 or S7]). Whis explained it as he just traveled into that timeline's past prior to Mirai Zen-Oh destroying it and prior to Goku Black enacting the Zero Mortals plan to warn Mirai Beerus of the Zero Mortals Plan and to tell him to prevent it from ever happening. Another way to think about it could be like what-if Mirai Trunks decided to go back to his timeline after the Cell Games were over, but instead of immediately returning to just after he left, he went and destroyed the Dr. Gero and his in-progress Androids before they could terrorize the world. In that case he'd have created another timeline where Goku still died and the Z Warriors lived their lives normally without the Android threat ever appearing and without the need to train extra hard in preparation for them. Do you understand now what Whis basically did? Basically what Whis proved is that Mirai Zen-Oh only erased that timeline's Multiverse's (Universe's of 12) present time-space and as a result of it no longer existing there would be no future from that point on. It's past still existed and therefore time travel was still possible to a time prior to Mirai Zen-Oh using his Erase technique and altering that past could cause a new timeline to branch off where that new Mirai Zen-Oh would never need to use Erase on the timeline. That is what Whis did to create a new timeline to plop them in where the Zero Mortals Plan never happened, but unfortunately would result in Mirai Mai and Mirai Trunk having twins/duplicates in that timeline.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on Oct 2, 2017 12:40:20 GMT
Beerus the Wondercat Filling in plot holes with fan explanations and coming up with theories/speculations is what we must do tho as fans. It gives us things to to do to occupy our time and ways to make DB messy crappy due to it's countless plot holes. Filling the holes up ourselves with plausible explanations until Toriyama provides an official explanation just makes DB that much more enjoyable. Also it provides excellent online interaction among fans all over the world. Do you disagree? Hakai and Erase seem to actually go beyond that being able to kill ghosts and even immortals as I imagine Mirai Beerus did that to Goku Black and Mirai Zamasu after Whis warned him about the Zero Mortals plan. Hakai, the GoD's sealing technique, or straight up murdering Mirai Zamasu before he gained immortality are the only 3 ways I could imagine Mirai Beerus did to stop the Zero Mortals Plan so Whis would have an alternate future to drop Mirai Kai and Mirai Trunks in tho it might've been easier to drop them in Cell's timeline since Trunks was dead there already. "Theories/speculations" are just over-glorified head-canons that fans use to explain the unexplainable or flat-out lackluster writing. Listen, it's not our jobs to create or fill in the blanks the authors didn't bother to. Unless you're being ambiguous on purpose by leaving out details like the Souls series (which is another argument all together) it's just a waste of time. I like Dragon Ball, but I can acknowledge that Toriyama isn't the best writer and the quality of writing could be LEAGUES better. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the IP, it just means I can acknowledge it's faults. It's these really tedious fan speculations videos/threads which overly complicate topics when they just have a easy explanation narrative-wise. Look at Star Wars. People post hundreds of theory videos on how certain lightsaber colours symbolize different elements, while George Lucas was just like "Ummm...Red is bad and blue/green is good. I guess you can have purple Sam Jackson if you want I guess." Same with Toriyama. People ask him about power levels for guides and shit. He just goes "Eh, whatever" in most interviews and puts his name on the product for add revenue. It is cynical? Probably, but it's realistic. Jut saying people are over-thinking just really basic shit in an attempt to elevate some adaptation of a old 80s gag manga when the answer is really simple.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 2, 2017 22:05:02 GMT
Beerus the Wondercat Filling in plot holes with fan explanations and coming up with theories/speculations is what we must do tho as fans. It gives us things to to do to occupy our time and ways to make DB messy crappy due to it's countless plot holes. Filling the holes up ourselves with plausible explanations until Toriyama provides an official explanation just makes DB that much more enjoyable. Also it provides excellent online interaction among fans all over the world. Do you disagree? Hakai and Erase seem to actually go beyond that being able to kill ghosts and even immortals as I imagine Mirai Beerus did that to Goku Black and Mirai Zamasu after Whis warned him about the Zero Mortals plan. Hakai, the GoD's sealing technique, or straight up murdering Mirai Zamasu before he gained immortality are the only 3 ways I could imagine Mirai Beerus did to stop the Zero Mortals Plan so Whis would have an alternate future to drop Mirai Kai and Mirai Trunks in tho it might've been easier to drop them in Cell's timeline since Trunks was dead there already. "Theories/speculations" are just over-glorified head-canons that fans use to explain the unexplainable or flat-out lackluster writing. Listen, it's not our jobs to create or fill in the blanks the authors didn't bother to. Unless you're being ambiguous on purpose by leaving out details like the Souls series (which is another argument all together) it's just a waste of time. I like Dragon Ball, but I can acknowledge that Toriyama isn't the best writer and the quality of writing could be LEAGUES better. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the IP, it just means I can acknowledge it's faults. It's these really tedious fan speculations videos/threads which overly complicate topics when they just have a easy explanation narrative-wise. Look at Star Wars. People post hundreds of theory videos on how certain lightsaber colours symbolize different elements, while George Lucas was just like "Ummm...Red is bad and blue/green is good. I guess you can have purple Sam Jackson if you want I guess." Same with Toriyama. People ask him about power levels for guides and shit. He just goes "Eh, whatever" in most interviews and puts his name on the product for add revenue. It is cynical? Probably, but it's realistic. Jut saying people are over-thinking just really basic shit in an attempt to elevate some adaptation of a old 80s gag manga when the answer is really simple. I said we must do it since 8t makes the series better. It's more something we must do for our sanity/love for the series and at for me at least, I really enjoy doing. Yeah, I know Toriyama didn't do it on purpose to allow us to choose, but I still prefer filling the pot holes myself so I don't metaphorically trip and break my leg. Anyways if you don't like doing the fan theories/explanation/head canon thing then that is fine; you do you and those of us who enjoy doing it will do it our way.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 2, 2017 22:40:20 GMT
Kor Saiyajinkami I personally feel that Hakai and Erase are the same in that they completely obliterate anything (no matter how large or small). I feel that higher beings such as Angels and Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai/Erase whereas mortals, Kais and Gods of Destruction are not since they are considered lower beings. Like you said, it can be resisted by strong enough individuals but I feel the Hakai/Erase would win out and completely obliterate the victim. since it is absolute. I disagree partially. I think Hakai only works on mortals and lower deities like regular Kais (King Kai, West Kai, South Kai, East Kai, & Grand Kai). Higher level deities like Supreme Kais, GoDs, Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, & Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai. Why I think Supreme Kais are immune is because if they weren't Beerus could've Hakai'd Old Kai instead of sealing him in the Z Sword. Now you may argue that he did it to avoid dying himself, but at that point in history there should've been 5 Supreme Kais still, so killing/erasing one of them wouldn't be enough to kill Beerus too. I don't think he would've been solely satisfied with killing Old Kai, because to a Kaioshin death doesn't really even matter since they already live in Other World, so he sealed him away to punish him because killing wouldn't be satisfactory and Hakai wouldn't work. GoDs are immune for obvious reasons because other wise disputes between them wouldn't need to require fighting and almost destroying the whole Universe or holding contests of various kinds. As for Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, and Zen-Oh, they are even higher than the Supreme Kais and GoDs, so that just makes sense that they'd be immune. Now when it comes to resisting Hakai, if it's done with Destruction Energy lent to a mortal or non-GoD deity, I know it can be resisted and stopped because Frieza stopped and then absorbed it to use against Goku, who struggled to resist and either would've succumb or barely overcome it if Beerus hadn't absorbed it. As for a full-powered Hakai, I don't think any mortal or lower level deity can resist it or overcome it. Now onto Erase, I think the only ones that could potentially be immune are Zen-Oh and maybe just maybe his attendants as well as they seem like they may be adults from whatever race Zen-Oh comes from if there indeed are others of his species in existence. Now I imagine Zen-Oh being the Omni-King could very well just turn any immunity he has to his own Erase technique off if he felt like committing suicide. Then how the hell Goku managed to partially Hakai Zamasu in the manga?
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 2, 2017 23:12:31 GMT
I disagree partially. I think Hakai only works on mortals and lower deities like regular Kais (King Kai, West Kai, South Kai, East Kai, & Grand Kai). Higher level deities like Supreme Kais, GoDs, Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, & Zen-Oh are immune to Hakai. Why I think Supreme Kais are immune is because if they weren't Beerus could've Hakai'd Old Kai instead of sealing him in the Z Sword. Now you may argue that he did it to avoid dying himself, but at that point in history there should've been 5 Supreme Kais still, so killing/erasing one of them wouldn't be enough to kill Beerus too. I don't think he would've been solely satisfied with killing Old Kai, because to a Kaioshin death doesn't really even matter since they already live in Other World, so he sealed him away to punish him because killing wouldn't be satisfactory and Hakai wouldn't work. GoDs are immune for obvious reasons because other wise disputes between them wouldn't need to require fighting and almost destroying the whole Universe or holding contests of various kinds. As for Angels, Zen-Oh's attendants, and Zen-Oh, they are even higher than the Supreme Kais and GoDs, so that just makes sense that they'd be immune. Now when it comes to resisting Hakai, if it's done with Destruction Energy lent to a mortal or non-GoD deity, I know it can be resisted and stopped because Frieza stopped and then absorbed it to use against Goku, who struggled to resist and either would've succumb or barely overcome it if Beerus hadn't absorbed it. As for a full-powered Hakai, I don't think any mortal or lower level deity can resist it or overcome it. Now onto Erase, I think the only ones that could potentially be immune are Zen-Oh and maybe just maybe his attendants as well as they seem like they may be adults from whatever race Zen-Oh comes from if there indeed are others of his species in existence. Now I imagine Zen-Oh being the Omni-King could very well just turn any immunity he has to his own Erase technique off if he felt like committing suicide. Then how the hell Goku managed to partially Hakai Zamasu in the manga? You seem to be under the impression that Zamasu was a legitimate Supreme Kai. He was never granted that title and upgraded form his station of North Kai as he never graduated from his training under Gowasu. Being the lower deity that he was, the Hakai worked partially. I haven't yet read that far in the manga as I kinda stopped during the Frost vs Vegeta fight and while I have wanted to pick it up after hearing how different the Goku Black Saga was depicted, I still haven't gotten around to it. Regardless I speculate Goku's Hakai didn't work fully because Goku wasn't a GoD and therefore doesn't have the true Destruction Energy to power the move properly. If they provided a different canonical explanation then whatever that is works too, but if they didn't explain it there definitively (guesses don't count in my opinion) then I'd stick with that reasoning I came up with.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 2, 2017 23:18:11 GMT
Then how the hell Goku managed to partially Hakai Zamasu in the manga? You seem to be under the impression that Zamasu was a legitimate Supreme Kai. He was never granted that title and upgraded form his station of North Kai as he never graduated from his training under Gowasu. Being the lower deity that he was, the Hakai worked partially. I haven't yet read that far in the manga as I kinda stopped during the Frost vs Vegeta fight and while I have wanted to pick it up after hearing how different the Goku Black Saga was depicted, I still haven't gotten around to it. Regardless I speculate Goku's Hakai didn't work fully because Goku wasn't a GoD and therefore doesn't have the true Destruction Energy to power the move properly. If they provided a different canonical explanation then whatever that is works too, but if they didn't explain it there definitively (guesses don't count in my opinion) then I'd stick with that reasoning I came up with. 1-He was not. But then again you would be under the assumption "legitimate Kai voodoo rite" somehow grands you immunity to Hakaishin techniques? Where was this even suggested at all? All we know thus far, "legitimate Kai" status only serves for fusing permanently and nothing else as a visible consequence. And yeah, the Hakaishin-life-link as well. Not even for using the time ring it's needed. Legitimate Kai status is not even needed for instantaneous movement. And Kai apprentices can also help people, which is an ability they lose when being upgraded to official status. All this was directly stated. 2-Why even bother to speculate anything out of your nowhere when you yourself have already admitted to not reading it? As expected this speculation is completely off, mainly because there is nothing to speculate in the first place. Hakai didn't work on Merged Zamasu only because he took Mai as hostage through one of his "Janemba portals", making Goku stop at once to avoid hurting her. This Hakai technique was totally going to erase him, immortality or not. Goku even had a monologue saying that he was going to borrow Beerus' most dangerous technique before doing it. So from there we know: -Individuals of similar or close level are not immune to it, deities or not -Individuals that are not deities can learn how to perform it -Individuals that are not deities can attack deities with it, given that the power-gap is not too high. Since in the manga it's implied Beerus taught it to Goku off-screen, it's likely Toppo (and Vegeta?) may know it as well.
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